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Sikh Girls: A Confused Lot. Are Parents To Blame?

pk70

Writer
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Feb 25, 2008
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I did not understand what you said. You said recite day and nite. Is that mean you have no other thoughts ever? If that is so then how can you read this and reply? You said people like me, So you like to judge people?
Have you heard LUCID dream? Do you know how to control dream? Can one's mind think of one thought 24 hours?

First of all, please do not distort my statement, I didn’t point out you only there was another" I", let me put it here so that all should read what you missed, come on, what did you read to conclude” judge people" Here is my statement without distorting
”…persons like you and I just cannot dream to have that state of mind (quote pk70)[IMG

Day and night remembering the Lord, is hard to understand for those who are not in love with HIM. Still I will try to say if you are serious to understand and wont jump on any conclusion (I hope this time) when we drive, we think a lot, we plan a lot but still we drive safely because some part of us is set on the road and traffic around. that is what being said in "day and Night remembering" metaphoric expression.
 

Archived_Member5

(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
Mar 13, 2006
388
76
London, UK
Incessant praying until it becomes second nature, recitation of the word means to chant it until it is absorbed into the higher subconscious where it becomes the driving force of will and focus of the minds attention whilst the immediate conscious is attendant to daily chores and practices. Literally programming or hard wiring the mind until the prayer plays in the recesses of one’s mind and becomes the master of all ones actions, thoughts, deeds and motivations...
 

seeker3k

SPNer
May 24, 2008
316
241
canada
Yes you put the I in it. But You seem to know all about naam simran. In your view I don’t. So it is for me what you are talking about not your self.
Any how in your view what is this naam that we have to recite? The naam what we Sikhs believe is waheguru. This word did not exist at the time of Nanak. In Nakank’s bani there is no reference of this word. It was only the Bhatts recited it in the glory of guru I think Amardas. Lets look at the word wahe guru. It is made up of two words. Wahe = wonder
Guru is one who show up the way to light knowledge. How that can be naam what Nanak was talking about? It has to be some thing different then wahegur. This naam according to Nanak was there from the beginning and will be here till the end.What was Nanak talking about? It is also called dhun,sound. How the dhun work? We Sikhs will not understand. Do you really believe one can love God? Which god are we talking about? Sikh’s Hindu’s Christian’s? Or is it the god of India, USA, the whole earth, or the solar system? Or the Universe God? The position of our solar system is no bigger then mustard seed. The position of the earth in the seed ???. And on the earth my position on earth. I am sure the PM of India do not know you personally. How then the God of the universe can know you personally? We are making god as human. We behave by emotions and we believe that god must behave by emotions too. That we can get favors by singing his so called name. And he also must get angry too if we don’t sing his naam. What a weird concept we have. Think out side of the BOX then you may know.
 

pk70

Writer
SPNer
Feb 25, 2008
1,582
627
USA
Yes you put the I in it. But You seem to know all about naam simran. In your view I don’t. So it is for me what you are talking about not your self.

I never claimed that I have reached to that point, so I considered myself as naïve as you are in that spiritual persuasion, you should know by merely doing simian one doesn’t achieve spiritual height; at least I cannot claim that. So please don’t assume.
Any how in your view what is this naam that we have to recite? The naam what we Sikhs believe is waheguru. This word did not exist at the time of Nanak. In Nakank’s bani there is no reference of this word. It was only the Bhatts recited it in the glory of guru I think Amardas. Lets look at the word wahe guru. It is made up of two words. Wahe = wonder
Source
No offense you don’t know what you are talking about, In Gurbani, wahu is used for His praise( Ref. Dr Sahib Singh ) Secondly, even if any one doesn’t want to call Him Waheguru, pick a Name Guru Nanak used for the Creator frequently, if any one questions that, share his/her ignorance with us here.
Guru is one who show up the way to light knowledge. How that can be naam what Nanak was talking about? It has to be some thing different then wahegur.
Again
Guru Nanak also called the Creator “Guru”( Sidh Gost)

This naam according to Nanak was there from the beginning and will be here till the end.What was Nanak talking about? It is also called dhun,sound. How the dhun work?

Guru Nanak also says that”Dhun” does serve justice in own way, takes care of all creatures as per Dhun’s WILL, Guru also defines the Ordinance that holds every thing. So do not stick to one word “Dhun” a lot of been said about that “Dhun”
We Sikhs will not understand.
Please do not include all.
Do you really believe one can love God?
Yes, doubtlessly.
Which god are we talking about? Sikh’s Hindu’s Christian’s? Or is it the god of India, USA, the whole earth, or the solar system? Or the Universe God?
God is Infinite, so figure out His limitations of existence if you can, I cannot BTW.
The position of our solar system is no bigger then mustard seed. The position of the earth in the seed ???. And on the earth my position on earth. I am sure the PM of India do not know you personally. How then the God of the universe can know you personally?

What you perceive is very limited image of God, His being permeated in His creation has this answer. Who experienced Him like Guru Nanak, expressed very clearly, and I strongly believe in him and reject all questions coming out of limited images.
We are making god as human.
Who are “we”?
We behave by emotions and we believe that god must behave by emotions too.
You have a choice.



That we can get favors by singing his so called name. And he also must get angry too if we don’t sing his naam.
I am not fear of His anger because He is beyond that, He is “Nirvair”, my thinking about Him fills me with love, when there is no His feeling within me, I see conflicts all over. It’s my experience. Whatever I do is the instinct in me to seek Him, you don’t feel, enjoy your life the way you want to, leave others alone.

What a weird concept we have.
Again, keep others out of it. It is you who feel that, who echo with you, enjoy there company, at least I have no problem with that. Your bashing of what I believe is my concern not your views in concept of God or whatever you think about Him or call Him
Think out side of the BOX then you may know.
May be you are in another box and have started thinking it is the universe. As you know there are always different kinds of boxes.:)
 

Archived_Member5

(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
Mar 13, 2006
388
76
London, UK
God is manifest as much and by the measure and limit of the individual seeking and learning about him. As our intellect, understanding and imagination expands thus his truth and reality grows in our comprehension and prerception of him.

WaheGuru to my mind, means the Supreme Spirit, The Great One, Creator and above All.

To love a mortal, the collective humanity or its creator one must have the requisite maturity of understanding. The Supreme Lord knows all things; he is our mind, soul and spirit, innocent and wise. He knows what causes man to react, respond and think in the manner he does. God is our Supreme Consciousness.

The fallibility of man is caused by his weakness and susceptibility to the lower basal sin nature, kam, krodh, lobh, hanker ... at some juncture man demanded free will, was given it and the onus to return to his creator a journey he must strive for should he feel so compelled or called.
 

balli

SPNer
Jul 20, 2006
5
2
The above discussion I find is quite irrelevant to the original point. Is there a moderator to see that people stick to the point.
 

Archived_Member5

(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
Mar 13, 2006
388
76
London, UK
Actually its not irrelevant at all. If Sikh girls put their own whimsical ego’s aside and pondered upon the name and word they would undoubtedly gain peace and contentment and be less if not entirely cured of their unsettling dilemmas and perceived hardships, would they not. This is after all a Sikh Philosophy site and not a lost and woebegone women’s refuge forum...:welcome:...

*My sincere apologies Balli Ji ... **
 

balli

SPNer
Jul 20, 2006
5
2
It seems I have been misunderstood. The argument right above on 'this' page seem to be (to me) irrelevant and not the original point raised. The original point in my views is very relevant and not at all indicates of any 'refuge' tendencies. :yes:
 

Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
Writer
SPNer
Jul 14, 2007
4,576
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How do one recite naam in sleep?


ਕਬੀਰ ਸੁਪਨੈ ਹੂ ਬਰੜਾਇ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਮੁਖਿ ਨਿਕਸੈ ਰਾਮੁ
कबीर सुपनै हू बरड़ाइ कै जिह मुखि निकसै रामु ॥
Kabīr supnai hū barṛā▫e kai jih mukẖ niksai rām.
Kabeer, if someone utters the Name of the Lord even in dreams,

ਤਾ ਕੇ ਪਗ ਕੀ ਪਾਨਹੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਤਨ ਕੋ ਚਾਮੁ ॥੬੩॥
ता के पग की पानही मेरे तन को चामु ॥६३॥
Ŧā ke pag kī pānhī mere ṯan ko cẖām. ||63||
I would make my skin into shoes for his feet. ||63||
 
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Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
Writer
SPNer
Jul 14, 2007
4,576
1,609
I did not understand what you said. You said recite day and nite. Is that mean you have no other thoughts ever? If that is so then how can you read this and reply? You said people like me, So you like to judge people?
Have you heard LUCID dream? Do you know how to control dream? Can one's mind think of one thought 24 hours?

When you become consistent with some form of discipline for Naam Abhiyaas (Practice of Naam either by chanting aloud or silent chanting) then the subconscious auto-pilot takes over the chanting as a constant reminder as well and this auto-pilot spills over the chanting into the dream state.

At times we can remember such events in the dream but most of the time, they just pass by unnoticed. Writing your dream is a good method of sharpening your ability to remember dream state events.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Balli ji

Forgive me if I misunderstand your point of view and words. I have followed this thread from 2006. The above discussion does not take on a different direction but takes it to a different level. The question at the bottom of the question is whether Sikh girls -- or anyone else for that matter -- are confused about their Sikhism as an identity. That has lead much later in the thread -- at this moment -- to an important question. Does one overcome confusion from the outside in or the inside out? An important question I think. In other words -- Does anyone overcome confusion only when society, parents, family "straighten" you out with better education, models, indoctrination, psychotherapy, support groups, or strict discipline? Or do we overcome confusion once we have found our moral center and have been able to create order within? Do families help their children more by giving them a spiritual light to guide them and encourage moral reflection and self-knowledge?
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
seekr3g ji

Hope you are not making fun :D You may not even be responding to my statement above you... but just in case you are, I am a kaur. Maybe you are responding to NamJap -- he is a singh.
 

teghsingh

SPNer
Feb 22, 2009
1
0
Sikhs drink because they want to, despite the heedings of their parents. It's against the religion of the boys and the girls, some just follow it more. You seem to place the blame of your guilt on your parents, when you should take responsibility of your own actions.

Many of the issues you face are the result of Sikh migration into Western culture. Unlike fundamentalist Islam, Sikhism is more prone to adaptation and thankfully so. In the case of women, that leads to a Westernization of many Sikh feminist ideals. For example, the lack of chuni, drinking, smoking, the shaving of body hair and facial hair and sometimes head hair. For men: cutting of the hair, lack of turban, drinking, smoking, etc. Men are affected first, especially in a traditional setting like yours, because Westernization affects the workplace before it affects the home. Sikh women are often housewives due to tradition.

You will see the men being affected before the women are in tradition for many of the reasons that Japanese Women's Language was formed in the early 1900s - cultures, when given the threat of change and modernity, will often hold onto an aspect of their culture, in this example, women. This is because of the value of the family: a Sikh woman will raise Sikh children if she is devout. Also, a father will always protect the sanctity of his daughter, while he will allow his son to make more of his own decisions. It is an inequality, but it is also nature.

As Sikh women enter the Western workplace in the UK and the USA, you will begin to see an equality in how women are modernized and how men are modernized. In my home my mother works in a professional workplace as does my father. However, I wear a turban. This is where the family does come in. Of course Sikhism has fallen to a lenient following in the third and fourth generations. The way to repair this (and the place where the family comes into the picture) is through the valuing of the identity. You say that people follow the Sikh faith out of its glory, not its beliefs. However, the glory of a Sikh is part of what makes a Sikh a Sikh. This glory gives meaning to the actions of putting on a turban and maintaining your hair. It is this glory which reminds youth of their faith and makes Sikhs desire to keep their hair.

There are many reasons for the inequality between men and women and how they are treated in the family, and many of these reasons are tied to the changes happening during the time. The loss of language, glory, and appreciation for the identity of a Sikh is to be expected in a household which has migrated from India into the Western first world. It is important to hold on to that which makes you different in this world, and I think that the Sikh community is coming around to this. The rise of the Sikh model and the Sikh actor will replace the Westerner as the role model of the new generations. Sikhism will find it's mainstream Western identity as a function of western society. The amount of devout Sikhs who hold onto the 5 Ks and have taken Amrit will always remain a strict minority, but the new Sikh is being born, with a turban, long hair, sunglasses, and a three-piece suit.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
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seekr3g ji

You are asking a really interesting question. I understand it in 2 ways. But the intriguing way is in the sense that somewhere, someone holds out that possibility that we can control what we dream, but we don't realize it. And so frustration sets in. You question could be almost is poetic. I wonder what the answer is.
 

seeker3k

SPNer
May 24, 2008
316
241
canada
I replied to your sugestion that one can recite naam in dream. Now you arte telling me that you dont know how it can be done? So who ever wrote in that shabad maybe also dont know how it can be done. May be he wrote it so the sloke in poem sound good.
But there is a way. I can only explain if some one send me email. It is so simple it would look funny. We have no control on what is in our food, also we cant control whats in the air we breath. But we can control our thoughts And some dreams.
truth3k@gmail.com
 

seeker3k

SPNer
May 24, 2008
316
241
canada
I do not make fun of any one. I very highly respect female. A female carried me for 9 months other cared me as sister and now my wife is caring me with out question. I am 65 year old male. I am into spirituality not religion.
It is not the question of Sikhs. This disease is of men all over. WE men are so self centered that we done know what we are doing. It was same for the Christian women. It is economic situation. In India or third world countries women are depended on men. Even here in USA Canada some women still are depended on men too. It is going to be this way until women get educated and get into work force and earn their living. Only then things will change. Women have to support other women. Men are not going to help, it is not in their best interest. Many religious men still they are the intelligent specie on this earth. And they think that women done have brain and they cant think. They will quote from Granth that it is in bani that women should be respected but living is other thing. I am not anti Sikh as many may think. Just think why 6th guru kept girl friend Kaulan. Why the 7th had four wives (some say he had 7). And why guru Gobind Singh had 3? Even many ordinary men had 2 wives. Can a woman have 2 or more husband?
One of the prominent Sikh Jathedar’s daughter was killed for marring the sikh who was not amrat dari. Nothing is done about it by the law. Most guys say it is not in Sikhism. But if all those men are Sikhs then what people will thing? We men have to clean our act and change our thinking. Email: truth3k@gmail.com
 

Archived_Member5

(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
Mar 13, 2006
388
76
London, UK
They will quote from Granth that it is in bani that women should be respected but living is other thing. I am not anti Sikh as many may think. Just think why 6th guru kept girl friend Kaulan. Why the 7th had four wives (some say he had 7). And why guru Gobind Singh had 3? Even many ordinary men had 2 wives. Can a woman have 2 or more husband?


In each case you cite of male dominance, each subsequent wife to be knew of his marital status yet pursued and procured him regardless, abetted by their benefactors who have ulterior motives to disarm and ruin the standing of the same. Rich, influential or beautiful men are always sought out for power by affiliation. It is a double edged sword you cite here. So women have independence, financially and politically, what do they do with this independence but seek a companion, a man and partner to live and love.

The cycle repeats itself. Independence does not coexist in loving relationships, for they are built upon mutual respect and support. It is all nonsense. Independence is accountability and responsibility for one’s own actions. What they seek is to be free in Spirit, falling short of this they pursue independence only to be as remiss, deficient and in need as they were to begin with. The only women worthy of consideration are they who are strong willed and able to live, love and respect all their family and peer group as they would be treated in kind.

Sikh girls who complained of parental oppression or curbing of their freedom tend to find the seeds of insolence they have planted return and their own chosen loves turn on them for the same reason. These are the laws of karma. The original tale, where there exists a successful prophet, man or entity, the lower ranks of women invariably swarm about him, seduce him until he is quite overcome and ruined, to be controlled and influenced by these women’s menfolk, a route to power as it were. The Clinton fiasco is a milestone in stray women used as missives to ruin and disempower great successful men.

Good women poorly treated, exploited and suppressed rarely complain, any such measures implemented for their protection is invaribly abused and exploited by the very factors the sanctum of the good were to be protected from. Sods law.

Politics, whether family, social, media, or business are webs of deception and bear little relation to actuality or truth...

***
It would appear it forward to note each time God descends whether in male or female form, the paap is close at hand and in proximity to profit and benefit from the love and power aroused by the same, whether are noble Sikh Guru’s as mentioned before, or Jesus and Marand Magdalene, Mohammed and his many concubines, none are spared this predetermined hypocritical misfortune..

It is mans task to detach himself from the sin that stalks and tempts his each step and manoeuvre, spinning political intrigue in a web of treachery, lies, deceit and sorceried witchcraft with diplomacy and minimal chaos or upheaval.. It is evident about us for those who have eyes, sense and vision to see. ***

Waheguru Ji ...
 
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