Islam Sikh-Muslim Marriages

[Harry Haller]

I find Sikhism best practiced when it is not forced on people.

You say that

Sikh Children should be brought in such an environment where Sikhism is devotedly practiced and parents should talk to their daughters before they attain TEEN-AGE, of the shame the parents would have to feel if their daughters marry outside their religion.

This is a contradiction, since when did Sikhism, which promotes love, acceptance, understanding, compassion, care about imposing ones will onto another? This shame you speak of, this is the shame that destroys families, turns parents into killers. I find this shame quite disgusting myself, what you are saying is that a man and wife can live completely by Sikh values, can be devoted to spreading love in the world, can be a friend and rock to all around, but if the kids do not follow the same, then they must live a life of shame, and so to avoid this, they should go against the teachings of the SGGS, and put weight instead on the opinions of society.

The best we can do is live our lives in a manner that is truly Sikhi, and hope our children emulate this through choice. Shame is a result of pride, one who truly accepts Hukam can never feel shame, one can only do ones best in bringing children up, the rest is down to the child.

History tells us that even the Gurus, the perfection of humankind, bore children that brought them 'shame', what chance do ordinary mortals have to escape this?

page 61
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
सिरीरागु महला १ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1.
Siree Raag, First Mehl:

ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹਣੀ ਸੁਤ ਬੰਧਪ ਘਰ ਨਾਰਿ ॥
त्रिसना माइआ मोहणी सुत बंधप घर नारि ॥
Ŧarisnā mā▫i▫ā mohṇī suṯ banḏẖap gẖar nār.
The enticing desire for Maya leads people to become emotionally attached to their children, relatives, households and spouses.

ਧਨਿ ਜੋਬਨਿ ਜਗੁ ਠਗਿਆ ਲਬਿ ਲੋਭਿ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ॥
धनि जोबनि जगु ठगिआ लबि लोभि अहंकारि ॥
Ḏẖan joban jag ṯẖagi▫ā lab lobẖ ahaʼnkār.

The world is deceived and plundered by riches, youth, greed and egotism.
ਮੋਹ ਠਗਉਲੀ ਹਉ ਮੁਈ ਸਾ ਵਰਤੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥੧॥
मोह ठगउली हउ मुई सा वरतै संसारि ॥१॥
Moh ṯẖag▫ulī ha▫o mu▫ī sā varṯai sansār. ||1||
The drug of emotional attachment has destroyed me, as it has destroyed the whole world. ||1||

ਮੇਰੇ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮਾ ਮੈ ਤੁਝ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
मेरे प्रीतमा मै तुझ बिनु अवरु न कोइ ॥
Mere parīṯamā mai ṯujẖ bin avar na ko▫e.
O my Beloved, I have no one except You.

I think people should worry about themselves, and the relationship with Creator they have, before they start worrying about others, even children

 

[Ambarsaria]

Marriages are between people/individuals and not between religions!

Beyond the two persons in a marriage everything worldly including society is secondary. Of course we have wishes for our own kind and so do others. But that is where it needs to stay, a wish. Let it stay as a wish and not a dictum.

We as Sikhs are always taught or guided at the deepest inner core to respect all individuals.

I posted the following many times but it never gets stale,

Awal Allah Noor - Mohinder Singh Bhalla. - YouTube

and

Alam Lohar Aval Allah Noor Upaya - YouTube

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[BaljinderS]

I have been thinking about this issue for the last month or so. From all I know and have learn't, forcing someone to behave or believe only results in rejection.

My parents have never forced anything on me. I am quite lucky that my dad is very strict with himself but never actually imposes it on you directly. Actually he never ever imposes it on anyone.

Live an honest life, work hard and be humble. If you don't honest believe in what you do than the chances are you that you will not have much influence on your children.

And one final point "Never follow any pakhandi baabe" they are the worst, they will ruin your family.

 

[palaingtha]

I find Sikhism best practiced when it is not forced on people.

You say that



This is a contradiction, since when did Sikhism, which promotes love, acceptance, understanding, compassion, care about imposing ones will onto another? This shame you speak of, this is the shame that destroys families, turns parents into killers. I find this shame quite disgusting myself, what you are saying is that a man and wife can live completely by Sikh values, can be devoted to spreading love in the world, can be a friend and rock to all around, but if the kids do not follow the same, then they must live a life of shame, and so to avoid this, they should go against the teachings of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and put weight instead on the opinions of society.

The best we can do is live our lives in a manner that is truly Sikhi, and hope our children emulate this through choice. Shame is a result of pride, one who truly accepts Hukam can never feel shame, one can only do ones best in bringing children up, the rest is down to the child.

History tells us that even the Gurus, the perfection of humankind, bore children that brought them 'shame', what chance do ordinary mortals have to escape this?

page 61
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
सिरीरागु महला १ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1.
Siree Raag, First Mehl:
ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹਣੀ ਸੁਤ ਬੰਧਪ ਘਰ ਨਾਰਿ ॥
त्रिसना माइआ मोहणी सुत बंधप घर नारि ॥
Ŧarisnā mā▫i▫ā mohṇī suṯ banḏẖap gẖar nār.
The enticing desire for Maya leads people to become emotionally attached to their children, relatives, households and spouses.
ਧਨਿ ਜੋਬਨਿ ਜਗੁ ਠਗਿਆ ਲਬਿ ਲੋਭਿ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ॥
धनि जोबनि जगु ठगिआ लबि लोभि अहंकारि ॥
Ḏẖan joban jag ṯẖagi▫ā lab lobẖ ahaʼnkār.
The world is deceived and plundered by riches, youth, greed and egotism.
ਮੋਹ ਠਗਉਲੀ ਹਉ ਮੁਈ ਸਾ ਵਰਤੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥੧॥
मोह ठगउली हउ मुई सा वरतै संसारि ॥१॥
Moh ṯẖag▫ulī ha▫o mu▫ī sā varṯai sansār. ||1||
The drug of emotional attachment has destroyed me, as it has destroyed the whole world. ||1||
ਮੇਰੇ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮਾ ਮੈ ਤੁਝ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
मेरे प्रीतमा मै तुझ बिनु अवरु न कोइ ॥
Mere parīṯamā mai ṯujẖ bin avar na ko▫e.
O my Beloved, I have no one except You.

I think people should worry about themselves, and the relationship with Creator they have, before they start worrying about others, even children

Reply:

In Sikh Mayada (Ehtics) it is mentioned under sub-heading that a Sikh girl marries only a Sikh boy. So a Sikh girl marrying a Muslim, Christian or for that matter a boy of other religion is taboo. There is no question of murdering ones daughter. The desired action is the daughters abide by the rules of Sikhism. In compliance of the Guru's Hukam a Sikh girls can only be married to a Sikh boy.
We must mind that a book well bound will last longer rather than a book loosely binded and in the same way a religion that has loose dictats will not last. So it is necessary our daughters are strictly disciplined and do not break Sikh ethics. Even a professional who discards ethics of his profession id removed from that profession.
Let us, Sikhs, teach our daughters to abide by the Sikh Maryada.
It is ridiculous to say that she can only be happy with her chosen boy in marriage.

 

[Harry Haller]

In Sikh Mayada (Ehtics) it is mentioned under sub-heading that a Sikh girl marries only a Sikh boy.

What about girls that have been brought up in Sikhism but have not made Sikhism their religion of choice? What about 'social' Sikhs ? What about those that practice Sikhism not out of love , but out of fear of Society? Are they Sikhs?

So a Sikh girl marrying a Muslim, Christian or for that matter a boy of other religion is taboo

Is the drinking after the wedding taboo? Is the dowry taboo? Is the hurried reading of the SGGS so everyone can get drunk taboo? or are we just concentrating on the cultural aspects of Sikhism that controls young women

The desired action is the daughters abide by the rules of Sikhism

Rules? I was not aware of any rules, I am aware of guidelines, advice, I am aware of how important conduct is in terms of Creation, how important it is to follow Hukam, but rules? I personally do not do rules, I either do something because I want to, or I do not. I am a Sikh because I want to be.

It is ridiculous to say that she can only be happy with her chosen boy in marriage.

It is thanks to people like you that Sikh women, Sikh Girls are moulded into stepford wives, they are no more than chattels to the people they are unfortunate to get married to, but hey as long as they are Sikh, or appear to be to folks like yourself.

 

[palaingtha]

What about girls that have been brought up in Sikhism but have not made Sikhism their religion of choice? What about 'social' Sikhs ? What about those that practice Sikhism not out of love , but out of fear of Society? Are they Sikhs?




Is the drinking after the wedding taboo? Is the dowry taboo? Is the hurried reading of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so everyone can get drunk taboo? or are we just concentrating on the cultural aspects of Sikhism that controls young women



Rules? I was not aware of any rules, I am aware of guidelines, advice, I am aware of how important conduct is in terms of Creation, how important it is to follow Hukam, but rules? I personally do not do rules, I either do something because I want to, or I do not. I am a Sikh because I want to be.



It is thanks to people like you that Sikh women, Sikh Girls are moulded into stepford wives, they are no more than chattels to the people they are unfortunate to get married to, but hey as long as they are Sikh, or appear to be to folks like yourself.

Harry Haller Ji,
Gurfathe.
We are not discussing who is a believer in Sikhism but A Sikh girl should nor marry to one who is not a Sikh. Also we are not discussing drinking intoxicants.
You said you were not aware of any rules in Sikhism. Every society has it rules and those abide by those rules can be a member of that organisation.
You have said that you know there are /is Hukam in Sikhism. Now Hukam is 'order', 'command'. An order or command is given to perform certain acts and these acts are bound by certain rules. An order by Panj Piaras is given to abide by 'what' certain rules, ie. a Sikh will not marry to one who is not a Sikh.
Let us not discuss English language. You very well know what I am saying in the matter of Sikh girls marrying.....
On the topic of parents molding their sons and daughters at their own whim, I ask you what harm is there. When parents asks their sons/daughters to live a respectable life, to study well, to aim to become a Doctor , an engineer, or study for any other profession, so not fall prey to drugs or do not befrien anti social boys/girls or choose for them their life partners, WHAT IS THE HARM?. It is not a good thing to revolt and go against ones parent's wishes. Parents will never push their off springs to troubled life.

 

[Harry Haller]

We are not discussing who is a believer in Sikhism but A Sikh girl should nor marry to one who is not a Sikh. Also we are not discussing drinking intoxicants.

MY point is that those that have no knowledge of Sikhism, other than the diluted, lite, Vedic version, are not Sikhs, and should not be forced to do anything in the name of Sikhism. If a girl truly believes in Sikhism, I am sure she can make her own mind up as to her future husband.

You said you were not aware of any rules in Sikhism. Every society has it rules and those abide by those rules can be a member of that organisation.

I stand by what I said, there is only love in Sikhism, not rules. Anyone who follows Sikh practice because it is a rule, is a fool.

You have said that you know there are /is Hukam in Sikhism. Now Hukam is 'order', 'command'. An order or command is given to perform certain acts and these acts are bound by certain rules. An order by Panj Piaras is given to abide by 'what' certain rules, ie. a Sikh will not marry to one who is not a Sikh.

I do not believe Hukam to be a command at all, it is an order, as is gravity is an order, the order of the world, the way the world works, the way people work, Hukam is that order, that consonance, you either embrace it, or ignore it, its up to you. You are no dearer or less dearer to God, if you smoke constantly, you will be in fear of death, this will affect your whole life, if you do not smoke, you will not have that particular fear, thus, the order of life suggests against smoking. We are not at school still, we have to understand the way life works, not persist in following orders we do not understand

On the topic of parents molding their sons and daughters at their own whim, I ask you what harm is there. When parents asks their sons/daughters to live a respectable life, to study well, to aim to become a Doctor , an engineer, or study for any other profession, so not fall prey to drugs or do not befrien anti social boys/girls or choose for them their life partners, WHAT IS THE HARM?. It is not a good thing to revolt and go against ones parent's wishes. Parents will never push their off springs to troubled life.

All I can say is that if I were your son, no doubt I would be a massive disappointment!

I have done all the things you outline above, and yes, I have had a troubled life, but I would rather do that than live a life that was not true. To wake up and do a job I hated, to be married to someone I had nothing in common with, to have every decision in my life ratified by a gaggle of old crones, and after all that, kid myself that I knew all about the religion in whose name this was all done. I despair at the way that young Sikhs, especially women are moulded in such a way.

 

[Luckysingh]

Quote:
You said you were not aware of any rules in Sikhism. Every society has it rules and those abide by those rules can be a member of that organisation. I stand by what I said, there is only love in Sikhism, not rules. Anyone who follows Sikh practice because it is a rule, is a fool.

There are rules as we know. The sikh code of conduct of reaht maryada is a set of rules that governs who is and what is a sikh.
In this article 18 part k, with reference to interfaith marriage

k. [FONT=CGOLLD+Arial,Arial][FONT=CGOLLD+Arial,Arial]Persons professing faiths other than the Sikh faith cannot be joined in wedlock by the Anand Karaj ceremony[/FONT][/FONT]


As you mentioned above, what does make a sikh and non sikh in order that they can join in wedlock ?
It is becoming common knowledge that especially in UK, where a few years ago it was common to see weddings in the gurdwara between a kid from a sikh family along with a white gora christian or atheist or black person..etc...AND NOW, the same temples abide strictly with this part of the code and do NOT allow such marriages UNLESS- the person from the other faith or so called outsider does amrit chak before the wedding and thus becomes a FULL SIKH.

On the other hand we have so many of the newlyweds as Harryji mentions above that are No more or less sikh than any other ''outsider'' and are not prohibited because their parents claim to be sikhs or have a singh or kaur in their name.
Infact, it is all about the parents name that identifies them as acceptable. They will have a punjabi Singh or Kaur, but that doesn't mean jack!!!! They can have absolutely no regard or respect for sikhism and can be simply accepted on these terms.!
This is where it stops making sense to the 'ousiders'. The peace loving, non discriminating and 'love all' sikhs don't seem so forward for a change!!!

 

[Randip Singh]

What about girls that have been brought up in Sikhism but have not made Sikhism their religion of choice? What about 'social' Sikhs ? What about those that practice Sikhism not out of love , but out of fear of Society? Are they Sikhs?




Is the drinking after the wedding taboo? Is the dowry taboo? Is the hurried reading of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so everyone can get drunk taboo? or are we just concentrating on the cultural aspects of Sikhism that controls young women



Rules? I was not aware of any rules, I am aware of guidelines, advice, I am aware of how important conduct is in terms of Creation, how important it is to follow Hukam, but rules? I personally do not do rules, I either do something because I want to, or I do not. I am a Sikh because I want to be.



It is thanks to people like you that Sikh women, Sikh Girls are moulded into stepford wives, they are no more than chattels to the people they are unfortunate to get married to, but hey as long as they are Sikh, or appear to be to folks like yourself.

I think we can point to flawes amongst Sikhs, and I spend a lot of time with young Sikh kids and although thier language is English, their music maybe a hybrid of Hip hop and Bhangra, they very much identify with their Sikh identity.

They may not read Bani or even understand it, but their alliegance is to that Guru. Now I was one of those who thought that it's OK for non-Sikhs to marry Sikhs and still do, however, on the Sikh marriage ceremony my views have changed.

In our Anand Karaj ceremony we swear alliegance to our Guru. That is the bare minimum required in order to participate. If one person does not believe in that. The ceremony is meaningless. You may as well just go for a civil ceremony.

We must protect the relevance of the Anand Karaj ceremenony:

 

[palaingtha]

MY point is that those that have no knowledge of Sikhism, other than the diluted, lite, Vedic version, are not Sikhs, and should not be forced to do anything in the name of Sikhism. If a girl truly believes in Sikhism, I am sure she can make her own mind up as to her future husband.



I stand by what I said, there is only love in Sikhism, not rules. Anyone who follows Sikh practice because it is a rule, is a fool.



I do not believe Hukam to be a command at all, it is an order, as is gravity is an order, the order of the world, the way the world works, the way people work, Hukam is that order, that consonance, you either embrace it, or ignore it, its up to you. You are no dearer or less dearer to God, if you smoke constantly, you will be in fear of death, this will affect your whole life, if you do not smoke, you will not have that particular fear, thus, the order of life suggests against smoking. We are not at school still, we have to understand the way life works, not persist in following orders we do not understand



All I can say is that if I were your son, no doubt I would be a massive disappointment!

I have done all the things you outline above, and yes, I have had a troubled life, but I would rather do that than live a life that was not true. To wake up and do a job I hated, to be married to someone I had nothing in common with, to have every decision in my life ratified by a gaggle of old crones, and after all that, kid myself that I knew all about the religion in whose name this was all done. I despair at the way that young Sikhs, especially women are moulded in such a way.

Reply:-

You don't seem to obey the Gur Maryada as outlined in the booklet of Sikh Rehat Maryda issued by SGPC which was adopted after much deliberations by prominent Sikhs from all over the world in around 1936-1945.
A man must live a principled life. If one goes after his whims he can never be a disciplined person. Therefore, Hukam, Command and Rules are necessary.

 

[Harry Haller]

Reply:-

You don't seem to obey the Gur Maryada as outlined in the booklet of Sikh Rehat Maryda issued by SGPC which was adopted after much deliberations by prominent Sikhs from all over the world in around 1936-1945.
A man must live a principled life. If one goes after his whims he can never be a disciplined person. Therefore, Hukam, Command and Rules are necessary.

I have no discipline, but I have some understanding.
I have issues with the SRM, and as for the SGPC, I think the communication from the US around the time of the Wisconsin incident speaks volumes.
I have no master other than the words of the SGGS.
I do not seek to impose my will on another

I feel it is important to educate rather than bully, I feel it is important to show people the way rather than force it on them, I find the hypocrisy of the older generation breathtakingly arrogant, do whatever it is you wish, as long as no one finds out, break whatever rules you wish, but never cut your hair, etc etc.

Your definition of Hukam is an order, mine is consonance

Let me give you an example, if ones whims are entirely in line with the teachings of SGGS then who needs discipline or rules?

If ones whims are to assist, to help, to nurture, to be a rock, to stand tall and brave, and to always be honest, then there is no fight, no struggle, everything flows, everything is good.

However, if you follow rules and discipline. and the above behaviour is the result of inner turmoil, what has been learned? what has been achieved?

 

[palaingtha]

I have no discipline, but I have some understanding.
I have issues with the SRM, and as for the SGPC, I think the communication from the US around the time of the Wisconsin incident speaks volumes.
I have no master other than the words of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
I do not seek to impose my will on another

I feel it is important to educate rather than bully, I feel it is important to show people the way rather than force it on them, I find the hypocrisy of the older generation breathtakingly arrogant, do whatever it is you wish, as long as no one finds out, break whatever rules you wish, but never cut your hair, etc etc.

Your definition of Hukam is an order, mine is consonance

Let me give you an example, if ones whims are entirely in line with the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji then who needs discipline or rules?

If ones whims are to assist, to help, to nurture, to be a rock, to stand tall and brave, and to always be honest, then there is no fight, no struggle, everything flows, everything is good.

However, if you follow rules and discipline. and the above behaviour is the result of inner turmoil, what has been learned? what has been achieved?

Reply:-
On 10th. Sept. you have replied to my comments where I said that one may marry with persons of any caste provide the person also is a Sikh.
Your reply is not gentlemanly but taunting, bullish and in bad taste. You have said that " yes, castes are more important that qualities" The mention of three castes is an example depicting Khatri, Arora Jat and others.
You say bullying is not proper but you are bullying and forcing the others.You and for that matter all of should be humble and present our views in a polite way.Care must be taken that one's reply is not offensive. And more important reply should be on the matter under discussion only. Your answers are not your views on the issue being discussed but striking here and there to scare away other persons taking part in the discussion.

 

[Harry Haller]

Reply:-
On 10th. Sept. you have replied to my comments where I said that one may marry with persons of any caste provide the person also is a Sikh.
Your reply is not gentlemanly but taunting, bullish and in bad taste. You have said that " yes, castes are more important that qualities" The mention of three castes is an example depicting Khatri, Arora Jat and others.
You say bullying is not proper but you are bullying and forcing the others.You and for that matter all of should be humble and present our views in a polite way.Care must be taken that one's reply is not offensive. And more important reply should be on the matter under discussion only. Your answers are not your views on the issue being discussed but striking here and there to scare away other persons taking part in the discussion.

The SRM, as I have pointed out to you on another thread, is quite definitive on the subject of caste, I will repaste it here for you again,

CHAPTER X

Article XVI - Living in Consonance with Guru's Tenets (Gurmat Rehni)

A Sikh's living, earning livelihood, thinking and conduct should accord with the Guru's tenets. The Guru's tenets are:
a) Worship should be rendered only to the One Timeless Being and to no god or goddess.
b) Regarding the ten Gurus, the Guru Granth Sahib and the ten Gurus' word alone as saviours and holy objects of veneration.
c) Regarding ten Gurus as the effulgence of one light and one single entity.
d) Not believing in caste or descent untouchabililty,

I apologise if you find my views and reply offensive, it is not my intention to offend you, in fact, if anything, given your age, I have tried hard to be as inoffensive on a matter I find extremely offensive, namely those that try and keep the caste system going.

I am not in any way a bully, but if you are prepared to make grand statements that are at odds with the SRM and the teachings of our Gurus, then I feel a balanced view should be presented to those reading.

I welcome all discussion, if you find my manner impolite, I will make an effort to be more polite on other debates we may have.

 

[palaingtha]

The SRM, as I have pointed out to you on another thread, is quite definitive on the subject of caste, I will repaste it here for you again,

CHAPTER X

Article XVI - Living in Consonance with Guru's Tenets (Gurmat Rehni)

A Sikh's living, earning livelihood, thinking and conduct should accord with the Guru's tenets. The Guru's tenets are:
a) Worship should be rendered only to the One Timeless Being and to no god or goddess.
b) Regarding the ten Gurus, the Guru Granth Sahib and the ten Gurus' word alone as saviours and holy objects of veneration.
c) Regarding ten Gurus as the effulgence of one light and one single entity.
d) Not believing in caste or descent untouchabililty,

I apologise if you find my views and reply offensive, it is not my intention to offend you, in fact, if anything, given your age, I have tried hard to be as inoffensive on a matter I find extremely offensive, namely those that try and keep the caste system going.


I am not in any way a bully, but if you are prepared to make grand statements that are at odds with the SRM and the teachings of our Gurus, then I feel a balanced view should be presented to those reading.

I welcome all discussion, if you find my manner impolite, I will make an effort to be more polite on other debates we may have.

Reply:

Para d) above says :- Not believing in Caste or decent.
I give no arguments for this as I have already said Sikhs should marry without any discrimination of caste system either the person's parentage is Khatri, Arora, Jat or any other caste but within Sikh families.(For Khatri, Arora, Jat I gave examples of family names Malhotra, Gulati and Mann respectively.
: