Sikhism And Homosexuality

[vijaydeep Singh]

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh
Shri Akal Sahai

Well Dear Bro CC

Das has used the salutation of the same Nihungs in second line and Das may not agree to them in many regard but They do tolarate Das.So they encorage tolrance.

As far as Hindu gods are concern as per them and as per Das francly if the y exist or existed ,they are not to be worshiped as they are created by Akal to serve humans.As they serve us so they are great and so they can be respected but never be worshipped.

The reason for thier using pictures of them or Islamic or other non Sikh things is due to the fact they do recoganise other faiths as well.Unlike a few missionaries who say that we are only OK and all are wrong these guys say that others are also not wrong.So they conceptulised an all accomatdating Sikhism.

but still this is rsiky as often nonesense can creep in and accommdating nonesense is useless.So on such issues Das may disagree with them.In fact we have another person who is member of our Fourm Brother Amrit (Pal Singh Amrit) who is critical to them(Nihungs of UK) at varoius just causes.And Brother Amrit Pal Singh Ji himself has a strong Nihung connection.(www.Amritworld.com).

So it is both the way.Good and Bad.And we can use the descration by mercy of Akal that which way is to be choosen.Das here want to say that Nirmala order to which das belong make Memeber often a bit relctant to even be hetrosexual while thses Nihungs have totaly differnt mentaily viz a viz errotica and other things.But both respect each other and tolrate.

 

[Lee]

The whole homsexuality and Sikhi thing is very simple from where I stand.

The Guru Granth Sahib, does not condone it. The Guru Granth Sahib, is our Guru, so let it go.

As for Gays and choice, scientist have uncovered what they call a gay gene.
In my humble opinion then this means you have no choice to be gay or not, that is Gods choice for you.

*shrug* It might even be a karma thing, who knows. However I have often heard that Sikhi is for the World not just for Punjabis, this does mean gay people to.

If a hetrosexual married Sikh couple are too old now to have children but still enjoy sex, does this mean that they are doing wrong in Guru's eyes?

Yes Sikhi is all about getting rid of the 5 theives, but this can be done with Guru's help, by anybody, from any background , or any sexual persiaion. Would you think of taking this out of Gods hand?

Heh I know I wouldn't. Remeber God is a part of and apart from Gods creation. Then of course how can God be all and not Gay too?

Cheers,

Lee.

 

[orange_slice]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I am currently a medical student and would like to re-iterate...homosexuality is not a choice, but something you're born with. Similarly, heterosexuality is not a choice, but something you're born with. Did anyone here every say, "Ah, now I will decide to be homosexual (or heterosexual) as of today"? No, of course not. Although medical science has not pinpointed an exact gene or set of genes that make people homosexual, most people in the medical community agree there is a HUGE genetic component to it. The exception would be certain Christians, who (erroneously) believe it to be a choice.

God does not punish people for being born homosexual...that would be like God punishing us for liking the color black or enjoying a certain food. I also don't think sex is simply for procreation (like some catholics do). Someone brought up the point earlier that if that were the case, people who were too old to have kids would be sinning every time they had sex even if they were married.

Ok (correct me if I'm wrong), our job as Sikhs is to do these things:
1) Kirath Karna (earn an honest living)
2) Vand Chakna (share you earnings with the needy)
3) Nam Japna (meditate on the name of God)
4) Overcome the 5 vices

The real question is this: Is it possible to do those things and still be homosexual? Can you earn an honest living and be homosexual? Yes. Can you share your earnings and be homosexual? Yes. Can you meditate on God's name and be homosexual? Yes. Can you overcome the 5 vices and be homosexual? Well the tricky one is "lust." But, homosexuals aren't really any more "lusty" than heterosexuals as a group (are they?), so they should also have the ability to control their lust. It becomes a sin when it interferes and starts making you commit other sins (like getting prostitutes).

I will say this though...Sikh Gurduaras do not conduct gay weddings (obviously). So, for an amritdhari Sikh to engage in homosexuality would be wrong, NOT because it is homosexual by nature, but because it is outside the bounds of marriage (one of the four taboos of Sikhism).

I will also say this. Pope Benedict 16th is a homophobe.

Please tear my reply up and let me know if I'm wrong.

 

[CaramelChocolate]

I will say this though...Sikh Gurdwaras do not conduct gay weddings (obviously). So, for an amritdhari Sikh to engage in homosexuality would be wrong, NOT because it is homosexual by nature, but because it is outside the bounds of marriage (one of the four taboos of Sikhism).

Well, it would be WRONG to have premarital sex and as a gay male I AGREE. I do believe in sex after marriage but the point I wish to make is this - ANY amritdhari can conduct anand karaj in front of SGGS, and in EVERY SINGLE RELIGION there will always be at least one person open minded enough to perform a gay or same-gender wedding. Who cares if they community does not accept it, the marriage is done [possibly in a house] and they are married in their own eye's and Guruji's eyes, it does not matter what anyone else says.
So if a homosexual couple can get hold of an amritdhari who is willing to perform this for them then is there a problem? I don't think so. There is nothing in SGGS to say that marriage is the union of TWO MATERIAL BODIES. It is the union of TWO GENDERLESS SOULS, any mention of man marrying women HAS TO BE symbolic [reference to the analogy that all of mankind are brides proves that all reference to gender in SGGS is PURELY SYMBOLIC]. Even in ISLAM there are HOMOSEXUAL IMAMS who would probably be FOR performing this wedding, and I would not be surprised if one has gone ahead already [probably in private, as they would receive a lot of abuse and threats for having a same gender wedding].
See: http://www.temenos.net/articles/09-06-04.shtml , http://www.ilga.info/Information/Legal_survey/europe/supporting%20files/homosexual_imam_prays_for_tolera.htm

I will also say this. Pope Benedict 16th is a homophobe.

Tell me about it! :}--}:

 

[orange_slice]

Hmmm...I guess you're right. My dad once conducted a wedding, and although it was a heterosexual wedding, nothing would have stopped him from conducting a homosexual wedding, and it would have been just as "official" as a heterosexual one.

I guess the next step (at least where I'm from) is to make it legal, but of course the more important thing is whether or not God recognizes your wedding, not some bigot in a suit sitting in a nice leather chair.

Anywho, have a good one.

 

[CaramelChocolate]

I guess the next step (at least where I'm from) is to make it legal, but of course the more important thing is whether or not God recognizes your wedding, not some bigot in a suit sitting in a nice leather chair.

Well, law is important due to getting the same marriage rights as heterosexuals, but to be honest if it's not legal when I'm ready to get married, nothing is going to stop me getting married, as long as we feel married and together as one then it doesn't matter what the law says.

 

[anders]

Sat Sri Akal,

The exception would be certain Christians, who (erroneously) believe it to be a choice.

Not that I defend Christians any more than necessary (I left that fold a couple of years ago), but I'd like to stress the "certain" in the quote. There are openly gay ordained Lutheran priests in Sweden. AFAIK, they are generally accepted and respected. A Pentecostal pastor recently condemning homosexuality in a public sermon was brought to court.

So far, the Church of Sweden (CoS) does not perform same-gender marriages. But there is the possibility of giving a same-sex couple a blessing of the church in front of the congregation.

I think that in not too many years, the CoS will understand that, like one poster here said, marriage is a union between souls, not bodies.

God does not punish people for being born homosexual...that would be like God punishing us for liking the color black or enjoying a certain food. I also don't think sex is simply for procreation (like some catholics do). Someone brought up the point earlier that if that were the case, people who were too old to have kids would be sinning every time they had sex even if they were married.

Well and truly said. I recently read that that the Catholic Cathechism condemns homologue in vitro fertilzation (i.e. when an egg is retreived from the wife, and, in a test tube is fertilized by her husband's sperm). I'd say that is a cruel view. Imagine a married couple (or, from my point of view, any different-gender couple in a stable and loving relationship) which can't preform the sexual act because of some kind of disability, or if the woman's oviducts are blocked beyond repair). The "holy" Catholic church doesn't want them to have children.

Sikhism, being a wonderfully tolerant religion, should accept the diversity of views, feelings and genetical make-ups that exist. I think it does.

Ok (correct me if I'm wrong), our job as Sikhs is to do these things:
1) Kirath Karna (earn an honest living)
2) Vand Chakna (share you earnings with the needy)
3) Nam Japna (meditate on the name of God)
4) Overcome the 5 vices

I'm taking Religious studies at the local university. So far, I've found no religion more tolerant than Sikhism. I often quote the above statement in discussions, to show how a religion should work.

So, I strongly support same-gender marriages (whatever that might mean, legally) and acceptance of other views than my own, as long as practices don't hurt anyone (or anything).

 

[Jogindar Singh Kaur]

Waheguruji ka Khalsa, Waheguruji ke Fateh

I'm a 42 YO woman who recently converted to Sikhism. I have been with my female partner for 12 years. I've been involved in some very interesting debates around homosexuality and the Sikh religion in many other Sikhi websites, I've done tons of reading & research in this area (professionally I work for an epidemiology researcher, one of the best in her field). I've read this thread with a lot of interest, and I want to sum a few things up I've found in this thread and many others.

1. There's nothing inherently anti-homosexual in the SGGS or in any statements or writings of the ten gurus. In fact, there's nothing inherently anti-sexual.

2. Sikhism condemns lust (kaam) of course, but you shouldn't confuse lust with sexuality any more than you should confuse eating with gluttony. The definition of "Kaam" is all over the map, but I think we agree on two thing: Sikhs do not have sex until after marriage, and they do not cheat on their spouses.

3. It is well-proven in a ton of literature that homosexuality is not a choice.

4. That we constantly talk about the SEXUALITY of homosexuals, but we never talk about DEEP LOVE between same-sex partners, and isn't that the crux of marriage? The merging of two souls into one? Perhaps one could argue that homosexuals can't fall in love, but my own experience would negate that argument completely.

5. I think we can all agree that being a couple is about far more than sex. Committed couples take care of each other and their children (and as a side note I want to point out that plenty of same-sex couples adopt children, too, or go through a lot to have them in the usual way). Again, I can cite so many examples in my own relationship where being a couple is far more important than "lust." If homosexual sex was only about lust, then my partner would have left me the year I couldn't have sex because I was in far too much pain. Instead, she took exemplary care of me. If it was only about lust, I would have left her for someone I was very sexually attracted to, but I did not because I loved her far too much to hurt that way.

6. I must say that in all the boards I have been to, there has NEVER been a Sikh, whether s/he agreed or disagreed with me, that has been impolite, called me filthy names or dehumanized me. I think this says so much about how wonderful our religion is, how inherently tolerant it is, and how much loving the Waheguruji makes us all better people. Pardon me my Americanism, but Sikhs ROCK.

7. Lastly, I think we can all agree that there is no reason that any human can't reach the True Guru. The beauty of the revealed word in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib made me fall deeply in love with Waheguruji, and everyday I honestly believe that Waheguruji blesses me through my partner's love and her care for me. I wish everyone to have such a loving and amazing spouse as mine.

In particular, I want to thank Caramel Chocolate for his wisdom, words and insights. I'd love for you to email me; it is hard to be queer, and it is hard to be a Sikh in the west, and sometimes it is even hard to be a gora among Sikhs. I could use a friend who is in similar circumstances as me.

 

[anders]

For starters, I'm an atheist, and I just can't make myself believe in any kind of rebirth/reincarnation/metempsychosis etc. If I could, I would probably be a Sikh now.

(professionally I work for an epidemiology researcher, one of the best in her field)

Now that's interesting! I never before thought of epidemiology aspects on homosexuality, but there's probably vast fields there to cultivate and harvest. But, given your wisdom, you shouldn't neglect epidemiology aspects on medication to females either. You will of course know that medical research is centered on western males, largely ignoring many ethnical groups in, say, Asia, and women and children.)

1. There's nothing inherently anti-homosexual in the SGGS or in any statements or writings of the ten gurus. In fact, there's nothing inherently anti-sexual.

I haven't yet read the SGGS from cover to cover (or rather from the first byte to the last one, as I so far only own an interlinear Panjabi-English file, and my Panjabi is even worse than my practically non-existent Hindi), but that's my general opinion and expectation.

3. It is well-proven in a ton of literature that homosexuality is not a choice.

I sure agree with the conclusion, but not always with the methods of research.

4. That we constantly talk about the SEXUALITY of homosexuals, but we never talk about DEEP LOVE between same-sex partners, and isn't that the crux of marriage? The merging of two souls into one? Perhaps one could argue that homosexuals can't fall in love, but my own experience would negate that argument completely

5. I think we can all agree that being a couple is about far more than sex. Committed couples take care of each other and their children (and as a side note I want to point out that plenty of same-sex couples adopt children, too, or go through a lot to have them in the usual way).

I think that it is that first sentence that makes me defend same sex relations as often as possible. I've sure have had my share of opposite-sex relations (mostly going on for several years), and have never (yet) seriously imagined other ways. But I think that I can distinguish between love and sheer sexual lust. In fact, there are women to whom I've been immensely attracted, but towards whom I never (I promise you!) had any thoughts that couldn't have been published in a Sunday school magazine in the deepest of fundy US south.

6. I must say that in all the boards I have been to, there has NEVER been a Sikh, whether s/he agreed or disagreed with me, that has been impolite, called me filthy names or dehumanized me.

I'm not surprised.

And I agree with your kind words regarding CC. Considering his wisdom, compassion and general sanity,I would have thought that his age should be 117, not 17. He seems to be so much more mature than myself at 61.

 

[Arvind]

Joginder ji,

Welcome to SPN forums

Warm Regards, Arvind.

 

[CaramelChocolate]

Bole so nihaal, sat sri akaal!
[Those are blessed who say, the true is timeless!]

Jogindar - welcome to the board and the very kind messages! I full agree with all seven points and I hope we have changed people's minds or made them think about the GLBT community and also it is great to have another GLBT here on the board!

Keep the fire burning...

 

[CaramelChocolate]

As I saw a sign once,
"Praise God for AIDS."

Do mods realise what is being implied here! That gays deserve aids!! Please do something about this. Did not realise a Sikh would ever take a Christian approach and wish ANYTHING like that on anyone. I had always thought that God does not hate in Sikhism anyway so now I'm confused to say the least.

 

[truthseeker]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!!!

I think that many people use God as a way to get rid of something that they dont like. They say things like " Praise God for Aids" as mentioned b4. That is tootaly rediculous to thank God for such a horrible thing. God never has... and never will do something soo horrible. and plus not only homosexuals have Aids, soo i dont see why they say that. I think many peoeple are just way to close minded to the whole thing. Just think Sikhism is about equality between all of us. But how can we say thats we promote equality if we cant except homosexuals for who they are. A person is made from their personallity and who they are inside, and not from what their sexual preference is
just a moorakhs opinion

Bhull chuk maaf

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!!

 

[Amerikaur]

Caramel Chocolate ji,

A story that really inspires me is that of our 8th Guru, young Har Krishan ji. He ascended the gurugaddi at the age of 5 with so much love in his heart for the world. What can a 5 year old do? He stood up to the emporer, for one, but he spent so much of his life trying to heal the sick.

I can't picture young Guruji saying that people deserve to fall ill, nor can I envision him as one that went about qualifying people as to why they were ill. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I do not see anything in his gentle spirit that leads me to that conclusion.

Remember the Khanda, the double-edged sword, and the paralells within Sikhism, such as Miri and Piri...the heavenly and the temporal. Another pairing is Dukh and Sukh, sadness (sufferning) and happiness. The two are never separated. There cannot be one, without the other. Guruji never guaranteed that any of us would live a life that would be free of suffering.

Sikhism doesn't preach hate. Sikhism demands that we separate our ego from these such decisions. However we are all imperfect people and we have all been brought up with imperfect parents that taught us imperfect things. It is part of the intertwining of Miri and Piri, and the challenges of both that await us.

Please do not forget the dangers of mass prejudice before you get too confused about Sikhism, or other religions. There are faiths within the U.S. where the ordained leaders are openly gay. There are houses of worship that will solemnize the vows of a gay couple, and these places are greater in number in areas where gay marriages/unions are legal...and that includes Christianity.

 

[Neutral Singh]

Do mods realise what is being implied here! That gays deserve aids!! Please do something about this. Did not realise a Sikh would ever take a Christian approach and wish ANYTHING like that on anyone. I had always thought that God does not hate in Sikhism anyway so now I'm confused to say the least.

** Off-Topic **
Frankly, speaking no, i did not realise until the discussion unfolded subsequently. And as the comment in context seem to be offensive, please guide me to that post by dear S|kh, where such comments were made, so that we can deal with it appropriately. Thanks for your patience.

 

[CaramelChocolate]

Post #9 on this thread.

 

[gaysikh_uk]

Caramel and others.

I have spent the past hour or so reading through the various posts on this subject, and I would like the opportunity to add my opinions.

First of all, I would commend CC for his courage in this subject. A true Sikh never wavers from his principles, and CC has shown himself to be such, even if you do not agree with what he has to say.

Personally, I have found myself agreeing with most of what he has said on this thread. I look forward to the day when a gay Sikh marriage takes place, regardless of whether it takes place at a gurdwara or somebody's home.

Sikhism is a strong religion, a fearless one, and gay Sikhs have to be doubly strong and fearless if they wish to be open about their sexuality in their respective communities. I have not yet reached this point, but I am open about it to everyone I know. My work colleagues, friends and members of my family are all accepting of my sexual identity just as they are of my religious one. To them the fact that I am gay, wear a dastar and am Sikh are just parts of my multi-faceted personality. To take away either of these would be remove an aspect of my identity.

One thing I would like to add to this thread is a personal belief of mine. As Sikhs, we believe in reincarnation. Reincarnation can be from one species to another and also sometimes be from one gender to another. Therefore, homosexuality may well be the remnants of one's gender identity from a previous life.

Also, some of the people have said that sexuality is a choice. Let me tell you a short story. A very good friend of mine, an amritdhari gay sikh man, decided that he was finding life difficult being gay. He believed that he could switch his emotions off and find happiness in marriage to a woman. I disagreed with this, and our friendship ended. He then married someone that had been chosen for him by his family. I recently discovered that he had left his marriage after a year because of 'irreconcilable differences' and that he was now looking for happiness in himself as a gay man.

Imagine being in those circumstances, and imagine the roles being reversed. Imagine being a straight man being told that he has to be in a sexual relationship with another man. Imagine the disgust you would feel with yourself every day, everytime you woke up next to another man. Imagine the emotional turmoil you would go through, telling yourself that sleeping with another man was natural, that it was what everyone expected of you, that your family would abandon you if you ever told them you recolied at the idea of sharing your marital bed with another man. How would you deal with that?

In my friend's circumstances, there is also the woman that he married to consider. She must have been heartbroken to discover that her husband, the person whom she had married, the one she believed she would spend the rest of her life with, was actually gay.

Many gay Sikhs enter into straight marriages in order to fulfil what they believe are their obligations to their families and their communities. By telling gay Sikhs that they cannot be gay and Sikh, you are not only destroying that person's life, but also those of the people around him/her.

Thank you for your time.

Bhul chuk maaf karni ji.

 

[warriors_of_truth]

SSA

Believe the Guruji says that everyone should lead a homely life, be married, work....and....have CHILDREN! now how is that possible for a gay couple to naturally have children? Plus a woman is a mans conscience!

 

[CaramelChocolate]

warriors_of_truth, please read the WHOLE discussion before responding. I find your response to be very ignorant and unlearned.
I would like to have a quote where Guruji says everyone MUST HAVE CHILDREN. Does this apply to women who, due to GOD'S HUKAM cannot have children? It is also GOD'S HUKAM that gays cannot have children...
Please tell me where Guruji says women is a man's conscious!​

 

[warriors_of_truth]

It does state that everyone should have a family life! Now what does a family consist of? Surely children make a family, if a woman can not have children then that is gods hukam but im sure if she does kirpaa and seva then that hukam can be changed!

Secondly it was Guru HarGobind Rai who stated that a woman is a mans conscience!!!

Thankyou, I am not ignorant I just have a different opinion!