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Jul 13, 2004
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UK
AGAIN YOU MAKE THE SAME CLAIMS, WITHOUT ANY QUOTES TO BACK THEM UP.
What if it is God's hukam for her to stay that way and no amount of seva can change it.... be realistic if seva was the cure for everything then everyone with a problem would be converting to Sikhism...!
You are ignorant... Sikhism is beautiful enough to cater for ALL situations... gay, straight, not able to conceive, disabled... Sikhism does even allow people to CHOOSE path of celibacy even if it does not promote it..
 

anders

SPNer
Jul 13, 2004
51
13
81
Sweden
warriors_of_truth said:
It does state that everyone should have a family life!
I, too, ask you: where is that stated?
Now what does a family consist of?
For me, it's primarily mother, two sisters and their partners, children and grandchildren.

Do you really think that, for example, a woman can have her blocked tubes cured by doing "kirpaa and seva", or that a couple that according to all medical expertise is healthy and still can't reproduce can be helped that way? Get real!

Secondly it was Guru HarGobind Rai who stated that a woman is a mans conscience!!!
I'd like to know where this is stated and the context before I just laugh at it.

And, for your information, since you obviously skipped all biology lessons in your life, same-sex couples are perfectly able to see to that, if they're lucky and healthy enough, they get children in the same way as other couples, and otherwise, they can and do adopt children. No more problems in creating a "family" than for everybody else.
 
Jun 8, 2005
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Bradford, UK
Right then I cant copy and paste on this, so if you peeps read the following pages of the Guru Granth Sahib 1165, 788, 1144, Bhai Gurdas bani and do a search on Guru Hargobind Rai about a mans conscience and you shall see loads about man and....WIFE! Are you lot saying that medicine is bigger than waheguru, if u want something with a pure heart and truely want it with Gods help anything is possible!

FATEH!!!!

Anders you obviously didnt go to sikhi classes! Its about being natural, letting nature take its place!

also anders its a womans choice to have her tubes blocked so im presuming shes does not want to have kids! Duh!
 
Jun 1, 2004
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** Everybody may please behave like a matured person. Its pertinent in a good debate that we support each arguement with a solid reference to the context. Thank You **

As my understanding of Gurbani, Waheguru/God has been described as eternal Husband/beloved and "myself" as His eternal wife, there is no mention of gender as such. As indicated by dear Warroirs_of_Truth, let us all study some of the verses in Guru Granth Sahib Ji:


Guru Granth Sahib Ang (Page) - 1164 -

As the hungry person loves food, and the thirsty person is obsessed with water, and as the fool is attached to his family - just so, the Lord is very dear to Naam Dayv. || 1 || Naam Dayv is in love with the Lord. He has naturally and intuitively become detached from the world. || 1 || Pause || Like the woman who falls in love with another man, and the greedy man who loves only wealth, and the sexually promiscuous man who loves women and sex, just so, Naam Dayv is in love with the Lord. || 2 || But that alone is real love, which the Lord Himself inspires; by Guru's Grace, duality is eradicated. Such love never breaks; through it, the mortal remains merged in the Lord. Naam Dayv has focused his consciousness on the True Name. || 3 || Like the love between the child and its mother, so is my mind imbued with the Lord. Prays Naam Dayv, I am in love with the Lord. The Lord of the Universe abides within my consciousness. || 4 || 1 || 7 ||

Guru Granth Sahib Ang (Page) -1165-
The blind fool abandons the wife of his own home, and has an affair with another woman. He is like the parrot, who is pleased to see the simbal tree; but in the end, he dies, stuck to it. || 1 || The home of the sinner is on fire. It keeps burning, and the fire cannot be extinguished. || 1 || Pause || He does not go to see where the Lord is being worshipped. He abandons the Lord's Path, and takes the wrong path. He forgets the Primal Lord God, and is caught in the cycle of reincarnation. He throws away the Ambrosial Nectar, and gathers poison to eat. || 2 || He is like the prostitute, who comes to dance, wearing beautiful clothes, decorated and adorned. She dances to the beat, exciting the breath of those who watch her. But the noose of the Messenger of Death is around her neck. || 3 || One who has good karma recorded on his forehead, hurries to enter the Guru's Sanctuary. Says Naam Dayv, consider this: O Saints, this is the way to cross over to the other side. || 4 || 2 || 8 ||


Guru Granth Sahib Ang (Page) - 788


All have grown weary of wandering throughout the four ages, but none know the Lord's worth. The True Guru has shown me the One Lord, and my mind and body are at peace. The Gurmukh praises the Lord forever; that alone happens, which the Creator Lord does. || 7 || SHALOK, SECOND MEHL: Those who have the Fear of God, have no other fears; those who do not have the Fear of God, are very afraid. O Nanak, this mystery is revealed at the Court of the Lord. || 1 || SECOND MEHL: That which flows, mingles with that which flows; that which blows, mingles with that which blows. The living mingle with the living, and the dead mingle with the dead. O Nanak, praise the One who created the creation. || 2 || PAUREE: Those who meditate on the True Lord are true; they contemplate the Word of the Guru's Shabad. They subdue their ego, purify their minds, and enshrine the Lord's Name within their hearts. The fools are attached to their homes, mansions and balconies. The self-willed manmukhs are caught in darkness; they do not know the One who created them. He alone understands, whom the True Lord causes to understand; what can the helpless creatures do? || 8 || SHALOK, THIRD MEHL: O bride, decorate yourself, after you surrender and accept your Husband Lord. Otherwise, your Husband Lord will not come to your bed, and your ornaments will be useless. O bride, your decorations will adorn you, only when your Husband Lord's Mind is pleased. Your ornaments will be acceptable and approved, only when your Husband Lord loves you. So make the Fear of God your ornaments, joy your betel nuts to chew, and love your food. Surrender your body and mind to your Husband Lord, and then, O Nanak, He will enjoy you. || 1 || THIRD MEHL: The wife takes flowers, and fragrance of betel, and decorates herself. But her Husband Lord does not come to her bed, and so these efforts are useless. || 2 || THIRD MEHL: They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together. They alone are called husband and wife, who have one light in two bodies. || 3 || PAUREE: Without the Fear of God, there is no devotional worship, and no love for the Naam, the Name of the Lord. Meeting with the True Guru, the Fear of God wells up, and one is embellished with the Fear and the Love of God. When the body and mind are imbued with the Lord's Love, egotism and desire are conquered and subdued. The mind and body become immaculately pure and very beautiful, when one meets the Lord, the Destroyer of ego. Fear and love all belong to Him; He is the True Lord, permeating and pervading the Universe. || 9 || SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: Waaho! Waaho! You are wonderful and great, O Lord and Master; You created the creation, and made us. You made the waters, waves, oceans, pools, plants, clouds and mountains. You Yourself stand in the midst of what You Yourself created. The selfless service of the Gurmukhs is approved; in celestial peace, they live the essence of reality. They receive the wages of their labor, begging at the Door of their Lord and Master. O Nanak, the Court of the Lord is overflowing and carefree; O my True Carefree Lord, no one returns empty - handed from Your Court. || 1 || FIRST MEHL: The teeth are like brilliant, beautiful pearls, and the eyes are like sparkling jewels. Old age is their enemy, O Nanak; when they grow old, they waste away. ||

Guru Granth Sahib Ang (Page) 1144

Meditate in remembrance on the Lord, and contemplate the Truth. He alone is attached to the hem of the Lord's robe, whom the Lord Himself attaches. Asleep for countless incarnations, he now awakens. || 3 || Your devotees belong to You, and You belong to Your devotees. You Yourself inspire them to chant Your Praises. All beings and creatures are in Your Hands. Nanak's God is always with him. || 4 || 16 || 29 || BHAIRAO, FIFTH MEHL: The Naam, the Name of the Lord, is the Inner-knower of my heart. The Naam is so useful to me. The Lord's Name permeates each and every hair of mine. The Perfect True Guru has given me this gift. || 1 || The Jewel of the Naam is my treasure. It is inaccessible, priceless, infinite and incomparable. || 1 || Pause || The Naam is my unmoving, unchanging Lord and Master. The glory of the Naam spreads over the whole world. The Naam is my perfect master of wealth. The Naam is my independence. || 2 || The Naam is my food and love. The Naam is the objective of my mind. By the Grace of the Saints, I never forget the Naam. Repeating the Naam, the Unstruck Sound-current of the Naad resounds. || 3 || By God's Grace, I have obtained the nine treasures of the Naam. By Guru's Grace, I am tuned in to the Naam. They alone are wealthy and supreme, O Nanak, who have the treasure of the Naam. || 4 || 17 || 30 || BHAIRAO, FIFTH MEHL: You are my Father, and You are my Mother. You are my Soul, my Breath of Life, the Giver of Peace. You are my Lord and Master; I am Your slave. Without You, I have no one at all. || 1 || Please bless me with Your Mercy, God, and give me this gift, that I may sing Your Praises, day and night. || 1 || Pause || I am Your musical instrument, and You are the Musician. I am Your beggar; please bless me with Your charity, O Great Giver. By Your Grace, I enjoy love and pleasures. You are deep within each and every heart. || 2 || By Your Grace, I chant the Name. In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, I sing Your Glorious Praises. In Your Mercy, You take away our pains. By Your Mercy, the heart-lotus blossoms forth. || 3 || I am a sacrifice to the Divine Guru. The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; His service is immaculate and pure. Be Merciful to me, O my Lord God and Master, that Nanak may continually sing Your Glorious Praises. || 4 || 18 || 31 || BHAIRAO, FIFTH MEHL: His Regal Court is the highest of all. I humbly bow to Him, forever and ever. His place is the highest of the high. Millions of sinful residues are erased by the Name of the Lord. || 1 || In His Sanctuary, we find eternal peace. He Mercifully unites us with Himself. || 1 || Pause || His wondrous actions cannot even be described. All hearts rest their faith and hope in Him. He is manifest in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy. The devotees lovingly worship and adore Him night and day. || 2 || He gives, but His treasures are never exhausted. In an instant, He establishes and disestablishes. No one can erase the Hukam of His Command. The True Lord is above the heads of kings. || 3 ||

 
Jul 13, 2004
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UK
also anders its a [url="http://www.sikhphilosophy.com/sikhphilosophy/search/forum/94-1.html"]womans[/url] choice to have her tubes blocked so im presuming shes does not want to have kids! Duh!
What a mature attitude to have, just because they lack knowledge you imply they are DUMB by saying 'duh'? Very nice of you to treat people on the board with tolerance and respect.
A Sikh woman would never not want to have kids if it is the duty of a Sikh to have kids right? Her wants will not even come into the equation.
And what I meant was women who are BORN with the inability to EVER get pregnant... it is GOD'S hukam and GOD'S hukam alone...!
 
May 26, 2005
56
1
62
San Francisco
"I am Your musical instrument, and You are the Musician. I am Your beggar; please bless me with Your charity, O Great Giver. By Your Grace, I enjoy love and pleasures. You are deep within each and every heart."

Warriors_of_Truth, I must ask: did you actually read this thread before posting? It just seems to me that you jumped in without much understanding of the subject at all. First let me point you to this speech given by a Nigerian woman, Cesnabmihilo Dorothy Aken’Ova. Here it is reprinted by ILGA, an international lesbian/gay rights group, but by no means is Aken'Ova talking about homosexuals specifically:

http://tinyurl.com/8e6au

If you read this, you will see how diverse families really are. Let me also tell you this story my mother told me. A guy I had grown up with, Todd, was extremely popular in high school. He never lacked dates, and he had many girlfriends. Years later he comes back to Barstow and he is sick with AIDS. His mother-- his own mother!-- disowned him for being bisexual. She never visited her son, not even when he was dying. In her mind it was the "proper Christian" thing to do.

Instead, he was taken care of by his brother and many friends. Of course his brother was family, but his friends were there for him too, to help bathe him, feed him, clean his sheets. His friends were more like family to him than his own mother was. From 1985 to 1991 I worked at the UCLA AIDS Center, and I heard so many heartbreaking stories about sons being abandoned and disowned by their parents. It is the basic tenet of Sikhi, it is in our Mool Mantar, that God is love, there is no hate. But to abandon your children on their deathbeds in such a callous manner is as hateful as it gets. How could the Christian God, also said to be of pure love, condone that? I don't think God does.

I am who I am, I am the way Guruji made me. I am a woman who falls in love with women, not men. I have been with my partner for 12 years, and you'll just have to trust me on this-- turning to Waheguruji saved my relationship. We had a horrible, rocky year last year, fought and cried bitterly. It was ONLY the grace of the Guru that got me through some horrific nights, that kept me from hurting or killing myself, that healed our hearts and brought us back together. The whole story is in another thread, but here's the contradiction-- if the True Guru wanted me to marry a man and start a family, why did Satguruji comfort me? Why did Satguruji keep us together? Why is it that I now feel the grace of the Guru *and* a deep love for my partner, both of which are very much shared? Why is my relationship strong and healthy, and not torn apart in order for me to marry the "proper" gender?

Can you answer these questions?
 

anders

SPNer
Jul 13, 2004
51
13
81
Sweden
warriors_of_truth said:
also anders its a womans choice to have her tubes blocked so im presuming shes does not want to have kids! Duh!
Try to understand that there are many medical problems that can make a woman infertile, like an infection blocking her tubes.

From YOUR post:
It does state that everyone should have a family life!
Do you realize how you contradict yourself?

If we get ill, we go to a doctor to get cured. We don't just sit passive, hoping for recovery. In the same way, I think that if a woman can't conceive, she has every right to strive for getting a child, and not just passively accept her condition. I hasten to addd that this of course must be her own choice.
 

Amerikaur

SPNer
Feb 19, 2005
146
9
America
I think rather than shunning our gay brothers and sisters, we should reach out to them. Is there any religous organization that is reaching out to gay folks and encouraging them to live by a moral compass?

If not, then how can we blame our gay people for being "immoral" when there are no moral organizations that accept them?

We are all brothers and sisters. We must all strive for a gurmat life. Choose marriage over dating. Lets challenge oursleves to learn Gurbani and live by the Rehat Maryada. Let's team up to work on taking Amrit...and then living that commitment.

I admire anyone that can follow that...regardless of who their partner is.
 
Jun 8, 2005
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Bradford, UK
Wo wo, ive been made out as some guy who hates gays on here! This is not the case all i did was question wether it is right or not in sikhi and who am i to shun away people? Im far from being a good sikh myself, perhaps I should have read the whole thread before replying, it was only an opinion!
 
Jul 13, 2004
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If you think homosexuality is wrong then yes you are homophobic but that doesn't mean you hate gays... Fair enough you can question if it is right or wrong, but in my view it is the same as me asking if it is wrong to be white in Sikhism, but it is good to hear you are against shunning people away. NO-ONE is perfect, believe it or not someone on this thread wished a horrible disease upon gays [the comment was removed].
 

Amerikaur

SPNer
Feb 19, 2005
146
9
America
Warriors of Truth ji,

I did not write my post to be directed at you, and I'm not trying to make you out as hating anyone. I apologize if you took that as coming down on you...that was not my intent. We are all learning here :)

Over the weekend I received a solicitation from a political group that were seeking to defend against "the homosexual lobby" and "their anti-Christian beliefs" and that inspired my post.

That to me feels like someone telling me that I'm not a very good Boy Scout. How can I be judged on my ability to be a Boy Scout if I never had the chance to become one? (I have nothing against the Boy Scouts, I'm just using them as a paralell).

That's just my thoughts...and Warriors, absolutely no insult to you my friend!
 
Jul 13, 2004
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piara atwal said:
i can never agree on this..this is immmral
shame on those people who indulge in it
piara singh atwal new delhi 110017

You are being ignorant
I'm sure ignorance is immoral in Sikhism
If you cannot support your ignorant claims
Then don't make any claims at all
Your ignorance
And unlearned approach
Makes me sick
You clearly haven't even read the thread

SHAME ON YOU AND YOUR IGNORANT HATE.
 
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