Sikhism And Homosexuality

[S|kH]

lol @ the random replies from people who don't even read the thread...

Caramel, just keep it cool and dont respond to people who refuse to read the thread and just wish to post a reply..

Anyways, I'll jump back in this thread later today/this week...I finally have some free time on my hands.

 

[warriors_of_truth]

Im from Bradford its in the North of England.

 

[CaramelChocolate]

S|kh... yeah true, did get a little worked up there didn't I, lol.

Warrior... cool, I'm from London so yeah... Bradford has a lot of Pakistanis right?

 

[BaljeetSingh]

I apologize in advance to have not read all the replies. I read the replies on the first page only. So, if any of my comments have been posted earlier by someone else, then this is purely coincidental.

Ok...my take on homosexuality is as follows:

We all learned in Physics (believe it or not, it was in 10th grade physics) that every system has a feedback effect which controls the entropy (the rate of change) of the system. Much like the speed controllers on public transport buses. Now, the population on earth is a "system"...similar to the "Weather" system. Homosexuality is nature's way to control the population on earth. It is neither bad nor good...just another way of nature to control the population growth.

Now, the origins of homosexuality (in India) date back to 11-12th century when kings used to have harems and keep a large number of wives. Now, it is very difficult (if not impossible ) for a man to have sex with hundereds of women every night....So, who used to satisfy the ladies quest for sex? They developed attraction towards each other and the Lesbianism was born. It is widely known that kings used services of hermophrodites (Hizras) to take care of the women in the harem so the ladies can not have sex with any other man. So, the homosexuality is not new to Indian culture.

If I offended anyone with my comments, I apologize.

Regards

 

[Jogindar Singh Kaur]

Baljeetji, welcome!

That's an interesting take on homosexuality. If you don't mind me jumping from "homosexuality 101" to a more "graduate" level comment, I'd like to add a few things:

Your thoughts about system feedback are one theory as to why homosexuality exists even though evolution should've made it obsolete. Another one is a theory of sociobiologist E.O. Wilson. His theory is that in animal kinship groups, if a heterosexual sibling has a homosexual sibling, then there is an extra person to help raise the heterosexual sibling's children. Since at least 1/4 of the homosexual sibling's genes are present in his/her sibling's children, then they have an direct evolutionary reason to ensure the well-being of that child. Plus, since the child has at least three adults to care intensely for him or her, then their chances of survival are stronger than a child with only two adults.

I think the reasons are a bit more complex than that, however, since sexuality in GENERAL is a complex behavior, especially among the higher mammals. The great apes, for instance, not only use sex for reproduction but also for social bonding and establishing group hierarchy. My personal theory in humans is that it is comparable to eating. There are basic biological reasons we eat and have sex, but we've developed complex rituals both good and bad around both of these acts. Ultimately, the rational human has to decide for him or herself what is ethical, healthy behavior in both arenas. You can and should get input from your family, culture, religion, science and society, but the individual themselves should make that decision based on what their emotional and physical needs and tastes are. Go back and think of how that sentence would work for both dietary choices and romantic love and you'll see that there are some remarkable parallels.

 

[BaljeetSingh]

but we've developed complex rituals both good and bad around both of these acts

Well, what is good and what is bad is defined by people not by God...as the line from Sukhmani Sahib says...

"Jab aakar eho kach no dristeta"
"Paap punn tab kaha te hota"

Loosely translated,

When this world had not yet appeared in any form,, who then committed sins and performed good deeds?

My take on the teachings of Guru are:
1. We have to raise ourselves above the teeny meeny details of our lives and think of God as a whole.
2. Do not get entangled with they ways we live or the rules of society. The rules of society are made by Man and not by God.
3. What ever God has made, it is for our good only.

Regards

...and for the record, I am happily married (read heterosexual) and have two great kids

 

[Jogindar Singh Kaur]

I think your interpretation of being god-centered is of course correct. I was thinking more of humans in general than Sikhs in particular. For a dedicated Sikh, the path seems pretty clear to me-- get married, be a householder. There have been many who claim that homosexuals can't be householders, but they're wrong. There are MANY same-sex families, including mine-- 12 years married & in love with the same wonderful person. Although we don't have kids, many of our same-sex coupled friends do. We *DO* help take care of our nieces & nephews, our friends' kids (& of course our pets, but they don't count per se). Families come in many forms.

I have to say, I didn't approach sexuality first as a Sikh, but rather I became a Sikh because me and my mate were having serious marital problems. Becoming a Sikh helped me through those dark times, and all I can tell you is that I know in the deepest parts of my heart that Akal helped me through that and helped me rededicate myself to my mate. For that moment alone (talked about at length on the welcome forum here) I am and will always be loyal to the Waheguru and the 11 Gurus that brought me to him/her.

 

[CaramelChocolate]

See attachment.

See attachment. For those who doubt the existence of gay asians.

See attachment. Gay animals.

 

[Beena]

Homosexuality can happen because of "nature" or "nurture," or in other words, heredity or environment respectively. When heredity is the problem, then because of let's say in a guy, because of lesser testosterone, he can show female characteristics, place him in an environment where this will be strengthened and he could very well become gay and take on the female role. Environmentally, homosexuality can be because of, 'incarceration, abuse by the opposite sex, experimentation, etc.' Since no one really decides to be homosexual, but if some become so, that's just like a handicap, it's unfortunate. If I become handicapped, God is not going to stop loving me, so, if some become homosexual, God will not stop loving them either, infact God could actually love them more. So, I don't understand why some religions oppose homosexuality. I would draw the line for homosexuals at adopting kids because kids' rights to live in a heterosexual environment, no matter if they show the other sex characteristics, must be upheld.

 

[CaramelChocolate]

I would draw the line for homosexuals at adopting kids because kids' rights to live in a heterosexual environment, no matter if they show the other sex characteristics, must be upheld.

WHY? Why is it a child's right to live in a heterosexual environment? Are heterosexuals more loving or caring than gays?... the ONLY justification one can ever have for the view of gays not adopting kids is the fact that the kids may receive a lot of unfair abuse and discrimination in society and at school and things may be extremely hard for them. Please explain your view.

 

[Beena]

No, heterosexual environments are not more loving than homo environments, they're probably both the same in love. The reason I wouldn't place a child under adoption, inside a homosexual environment is because of the following reasons:

1) All were conceived heterosexually
2) Naturally we are destined to be heterosexual and re-produce naturally, but environment can have a major effect upon that tendency.
3) Being placed in a homo environment can result in a loss of identity in the face of what you perceive as the norm, as children's thinking is only developing and first and foremost, they take their role models as parents or consider them the norm, but society shows otherwise.
4) We have a right to be raised in a hetero environment because that is the rule and the other only an exception. For an exception, I WILL NOT FORSAKE THE RULE!
5) And like you suggested, in other words, 'they might encounter abuse, discrimination and embarrassment.'

 

[CaramelChocolate]

2) Naturally we are destined to be heterosexual and re-produce naturally, but environment can have a major effect upon that tendency.

Why did you say homosexuality may be a result of nature [biology, science] if you believe this? This is a flawed argument. A khalsa doctor on this forum has even said homosexuality is about biology not nurture...
IF sexuality is CONDITIONED then why do we have gays in equal proportions all over the world... everyone is conditioned to be straight... if anyone's sexuality is conditioned, then it's heterosexuality.
Let me explain it...
We are all brought up to be straight [excluding the rare 0.000000000000001% in society where a parent says to a kid, "hey you maybe gay"]. It goes like this... ANY reference to relationships and it's boy meets girl, any reference to leaving home or partnership and the marriage is between a man and a women, homosexuality always takes a back seat... even the jokes and innuendos in our society are centrally heterosexual... Men and women are separate in the Gurdwara, opposites attract, ONLY a man can love a women and vice versa is implied in ALL cultural and religious traditions. Heterosexuals don't realise this, but not a day goes by where a gay person [even ones out of the closet] have to conform to some heterosexual conditioned standard. I can expand on this if you need further explanation.
Just to add, when someone realises they are not heterosexual then they realise what they have been conditioned to believe about sexuality, being in the minority of being gay their approach to their sexuality will be more open in a sense as their approach to their innate sexuality will not be defined by society... i.e. western heterosexual society dictates that a man must like white blond stick thin girls with every part of her body showing... resulting in self esteem problems for women... it is easier for gays to break free of this which is why in the gay community you see so many types of people... men who prefer overweight men etc.

3) Being placed in a homo environment can result in a loss of identity in the face of what you perceive as the norm, as children's thinking is only developing and first and foremost, they take their role models as parents or consider them the norm, but society shows otherwise.

Loss of identity!!!!!!! Are you kidding! I am an incomplete person???? I do not know who I am!!! I maybe messed up inside due to IGNORANT HETEROSEXUAL OPPRESSION but I know who and what I am as a person and my sexuality has actually helped me to be a more open-minded and accepting person.... infact I am certain I would NEVER EVER be interested in religion and especially eastern traditions such as Sikhism Hinduism Jainism... my position and experiences as a gay person have helped me open my mind, rather than being an ignorant racist homophobic white thug referring to all asians as "pakis".

4) We have a right to be raised in a hetero environment because that is the rule and the other only an exception. For an exception, I WILL NOT FORSAKE THE RULE!

Whose rule is it..?? We have no right to be raised in such an environment... it does not matter who is in our environment, it is HOW well they look after us...

After your previous response I was quite surprised at the ignorance of the recent post...

 

[Anju]

I must commend CaramelChocolate. You argue your point well.

I too believe that every human being is equal. I can not say what causes the non heterosexual state but I do think it is part of a larger plan. Perhaps even to test our own beliefs and compassion towards others different from ourseleves.

If we are judged by our actions then a sikh who is all that he/she should be but feels a deep love for another of thier gender. How can this person be less than any other with equal devotion and actions in life?

I can not see how the lord would not bless either.
The lord's love is unconditional is it not. Even if you do not love the lord as dearly he still loves you. But if you place him 1st each and every day regardless does he not love you more for remembering him each and every day. Even those that hate him and daily remember him by calling on him are in more favor than those that do not remember him at all. correct?



there are men/women who stay with one another in a life of a lie. Because they do not desire the other gender.

They even produce children and pretend to be a loving family. But this is a lie. I can not see the lord blessing a union like this where the love is a sham.
(in general there are too many of these, even one is too many.)

which of these non heterosexual relationships is pure and with honor and intrigity. I do not think its the one where they live a lie for the sake of appearing as a good upstandingsikh.


A LIE is a LIE regardless of how you color it.

(please note is only my opinion)

 

[CaramelChocolate]

I would like to point out something that Guru Granth ji says. I thank NamHari Kaurji for pointing this out to me, it is a beautiful quote that nicely ties in with this issue. Guruji is showing us how homosexuals should not loose faith, and also that Sikhs should neve reject homosexuals. Well if you relate this teaching to this issue it will tie in beautifully. Once again NamHari ji, thanks for messaging me with this beautiful quote from Sukhmani sahib.
Ang 268
Ashtapadee:
He obtains ten things, and puts them behind him;
for the sake of one thing withheld, he forfeits his faith.
But what if that one thing were not given, and the ten were taken away?
Then, what could the fool say or do?

 

[CaramelChocolate]

I have been thinking about doing this for a while, but now I am actually going to do it.
I am going to ask GOD to give us some advice on this issue, through taking a hukamnama.
"Waheguruji, please give the sadh sangat some advice through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji on the issue of homosexuality"
http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/Register.nsf/CyberHukamnama!OpenForm

The answer from Guruji is:
http://www.sikhnet.com/sggs/translation/1219.html

Let me analyse what Guruji's answer may mean.

Saarang, Fifth Mehl:

The Name of the Lord is cooling and soothing.
God's praise makes life easier [makes it easier to deal with the prejudice]
Searching, searching the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees, the Holy Saints have realized this. ||1||Pause||

In the worlds of Shiva, Brahma and Indra, I wandered around, burning up with envy.
Homosexuals should not hide who they are and be jealous or envious that they are not homosexual.
Meditating, meditating in remembrance on my Lord and Master, I became cool and calm; my pains, sorrows and doubts are gone. ||1||
The homosexual should meditate on God if prejudice in society leads them to doubt his existence [this ties in nicely with the quote from Sukhmani sahib]
Whoever has been saved in the past or the present, was saved through loving devotional worship of the Divine Lord.
KEY QUOTE.... we are saved through love of Waheguru, NOT sexuality
This is Nanak's prayer: O Dear God, please let me serve the humble Saints. ||2||52||75||

Saarang, Fifth Mehl;

O my tongue, sing the Ambrosial Praises of the Lord.

Chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, listen to the Lord's Sermon, and chant God's Name. ||1||Pause||
Always paise God and listen to this advice that Guruji is currently giving
So gather in the jewel, the wealth of the Lord's Name; love God with your mind and body.
Love God more than the worldly things [do not become too attached to sexuality]
You must realize that all other wealth is false; this alone is the true purpose of life. ||1||
The wealth of any relation is temporary [heterosexual or homosexual]
He is the Giver of the soul, the breath of life and liberation; lovingly tune in to the One and Only Lord.

Says Nanak, I have entered His Sanctuary; He gives sustenance to all. ||2||53||76||
He sustains ALL
Saarang, Fifth Mehl:

I cannot do anything else.
We cannot do anything else apart from entering God's sanctuary, some things are out of our control, meaning that homosexuals should do the best they can within their capacity
I have taken this Support, meeting the Saints; I have entered the Sanctuary of the One Lord of the World. ||1||Pause||

The five wicked enemies are within this body; they lead the mortal to practice evil and corruption.
I guess this refers to the five vices... so whatever the person's orientation or preferences, they shoudl try to fight them [applies to heterosexual and homosexual] and keep them as little as possible
He has infinite hope, but his days are numbered, and old age is sapping his strength. ||1||

He is the Help of the helpless, the Merciful Lord, the Ocean of Peace, the Destroyer of all pains and fears.
It may hurt to be in this minority but God is here to help these people become strong and reduce their pain
Slave Nanak longs for this blessing, that he may live, gazing upon the Feet of God. ||2||54||77||

Saarang, Fifth Mehl:

Without the Lord's Name, flavors are tasteless and insipid.
Just because one is homosexual they should not stop praising God and if they do loose faith their sexuality will become pure vice [along with heterosexuality]
Sing the Sweet Ambrosial Praises of the Lord's Kirtan; day and night, the Sound-current of the Naad will resonate and resound. ||1||Pause||

Meditating in remembrance on the Lord, total peace and bliss are obtained, and all sorrows are taken away.

The profit of the Lord, Har, Har, is found in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; so load it and bring it on home. ||1||
Keep the company of the devotees of God and not those in the homosexual community who live a life of lust alone, find other spiritual homosexuals
He is the Highest of all, the Highest of the high; His celestial ecomony has no limit.

Nanak cannot even express His Glorious Grandeur; gazing upon Him, he is wonder-struck. ||2||55||78||

Saarang, Fifth Mehl:

The mortal came to hear and chant the Word of the Guru's Bani.

But he has forgotten the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and he has become attached to other temptations. His life is totally worthless! ||1||Pause||
Do not become too attached to your sexuality [again any sexuality] or any other vice
O my unconscious mind, become conscious and figure it out; the Saints speak the Unspoken Speech of the Lord.
Work this out for yourself! use common sense
So gather in your profits - worship and adore the Lord within your heart; your coming and going in reincarnation shall end. ||1||

Efforts, powers and clever tricks are Yours; if You bless me with them, I repeat Your Name.
Homosexuals are being tested on their faith in God?? If a homosexual keeps his/her faith in God then they will become stronger believers than heterosexuals in the long run, as they will go through much prejudice which could essentially make them disbelieve or believe strongly
They alone are devotees, and they alone are attached to devotional worship, O Nanak, who are pleasing to God. ||2||56||79||

Saarang, Fifth Mehl:

Those who deal in the Naam, the Name of the Lord, are wealthy.
Those who devote themselves to God are rich in personality, goodness and spirituality
So become a partner with them, and earn the wealth of the Naam. Contemplate the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ||1||Pause||
A homosexual should settle with someone who is devoted to God and spiritual like them.

 

[ripdrool]

Interesting topic. From the christian p.o.v. homosextuality is looked down upon. It's looked upon as a sin and you should try to keep from doing all sin no matter how you feel about it. Of course you may be weak at times and still sin but you keep trying your best and continue on through life. I have friends who are gay and say they are christians but they condone the gay lifestyle. This I can't aggree with because like any sin you shouldn't condone it no matter what it is. Isn't our life here on earth just a means to test our faith and resolve? Isn't our glory found in our reward in being with God? There have been studies that show murderers have a certain gene patern but you can't condone that action. If everyone was born homosexual then the human race would die out and this doesn't really fit into God's nature. I believe it's a matter of overpowering your deepest lusts and desires that make you a powerful spirit. I have a problem with addiction and I fight everyday to overcome it. I would never condone that addiction or aggree with someone who condones that addiction..

 

[CaramelChocolate]

ripdrool - If everyone was born the same the human race WOULD essentially die out... using the arguement "IF WE WERE ALL BORN GAAAAAAAAAY WE'D DIE" doesn't wash with me AT ALL. God created us and within that he created DIVERSITY. Example, if we were all MEN then we would die, does that mean its WRONG to be a man? Nope... everything has it's purpose, EVERYTHING. In Sikhism everything is Waheguru's hukam. Murder, lust etc. etc.... but in the case of homosexuality you have to understand that we are not "condoning the sin of homosexuality in Sikhism", because it has not been written in any Sikh scripture that homosexuality is a sin!... Don't be silly, God is not going to make everyone gay. The amount of gay people have stayed the same amount for centuries, and yet the world is OVER-POPULATED!... furthermore... if all gays all over actually were accepted and settled down with a gay partner the world would not stop turning.

BY THE WAY - The bible is teleological in it's morals so there can NEVER be one clear cut answer "he who has loved has fulfilled the law"... even if you agree that homosexuality is outlawed this has been challenged and I will give you one example:
"homosexual offenders will not inherit the kingdom of God" - the context that this was written in was that of, at the time, it was common for all married men to have a young slave/servant boy as a sexual plaything on the side... THAT'S what it refers to.
ANOTHER SIDE NOTE... apparently this sort of thing goes on in Islamic households today in Pakistan!!

 

[Sikh N Sleek]

SSA,

The way I see it is that homosexuality is in nature and is and has been part of humanity since the year dot. But for any religion or race or group ,etc it is dangerous to promote or accept as per norm, becos then that group will be in danger of becoming wiped of the face of the earth because they have so many people who have no desire to procreate with opposite sex to continue the survival of the group.

As a Sikh I accept if someone is gay or wotever as a human and part of the human family but as a religious group it becomes dangerous to allow this deviant sexuality become the norm so that the survival of the group (in our case our Sikh community) becomes threatened with low birth rates.

Already we can see Islam on the rise in Europe as a counter to the acceptance of homosexuality lifestyle and partnerships has become common place. This in effect has caused low birth rates amoung the indignious populations of various european countries and high divorce rates while Islam opening promoting high birth rates is making head ways. And as everyone knows, strengten is in numbers and majority rules.

So with Islam on the rise, which is the most extreme of the abrahmic faiths and believes homosexuals should be killled. You can see what the future of Eurpore and the rest of the world will look like.

 

[Jogindar Singh Kaur]

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, waheguruji ke Fateh!

SnS ji, you are confusing correlation and causation. Just because native Europeans have a low birthrate this does NOT indicate that they are "turning" homosexual. That would be a ridiculous argument. In fact, it would be far more accurate to state that the low birthrate is due to women being far more accepted in economic society, and therefore having fewer or no children in order to balance family and career. Yet no one is saying that we should discourage women the same way as you would homosexuals.

The truth is that one IS born that way. There is far more evidence that this is the case than "bad" parenting or some kind of (sub)conscious decision.

All the SGGS asks is that you be a householder, monogamous, and combat the 5 evils. Homosexuals can create strong partnerships and families, we can certainly be monogamous, and we can certainly have long-term relationships that focus on love and not lust. This, in fact, is one of the reasons I appreciate Sikhi-- it distills the nature of God and our relationship to God to its most salient points.

No one is asking anyone to "encourage" homosexuality, or "promote" it, or to declare it superior to heterosexuality. That is ridiculous even to this homosexual. What we ask is that we are given the chance to have the love of a partner in this life, and the chance to experience God as we see fit. All too often we are excluded from religions, and that, frankly, only teaches the faithful that we are somehow subhuman. The worship of God should NOT include embracing bigotry.

Seriously, I ask everyone and anyone who has read this thread to do their research first. Read about gay and lesbian people, read about our lives and what we have been through. I can guarantee that if you are not a GLBT person or if you don't know a GLBT person, then you have no idea. Learn! That is what a Sikh is, a student.

Learn all you can, meditate on God and you will understand that homosexuals are Waheguruji's children too, and Waheguruji does not ask any more or any less of us than s/he would any other human.

 

[Amerikaur]

I've seen some gay couples in my own town adopt some very hard to place children and have done wonders to turn their lives around. Gay couples can have very fruitful marriages and do very very precious seva by adopting children, especially the children that "no one wants" : special-needs children, older children, racial minority children.

There are some very selfless, God-serving couples in the world, gay and straight, doing great things.