Sikhism And Homosexuality

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When Does Tolerance Stop?


The story below talks about a school board's decision to ban ALL extracurricular clubs on the high school campus so that the school could avoid having to deal with a club called PRIDE, which stands for "Peers Rising in Diversity Education." The club had a homosexual agenda.

http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/new...news/8931.shtml

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Well Das recently talked to his Mahant Ji(Head Monk) of Nirmala order and as per him there must not be much fus about any person if he is homosexual or lesbian.

In fact other Nirmala in UK Brother tSingh Ji also talked with das online on this issue(we had a slender campaigne against Nihungs of UK that they are phedelphia etc practicing people).

So what othodox or Santan Sikhs have to say is more like to tolrate people with such sexuality and be given a chance to unite with God and rather God can give them a chance if they come to Panth.

Like say in Deccan Sikhs may have tilak on thier head as it is thier local customs(only for Telugus) or say in Bihar we can wear dhoti.

So preachers can think that homosexuality is local culture of west or say a few Muslims.

As as orthodox part of Gurmat is concerned we try to over come over attraction towrads sex(Kok or Rati) as this can bring ion desire or Kama which is vice.

One must know that partner be it of opposite or same sex in ntemporay and not be loved as an individaul but God should be.

 

[hpluthera]

Re: gays and sikhi

Dear Confused Sikh
In many place Gurbani refer to " Akl" good sense and use of god's gift brain. Gurbani also preaches sanyam contol over five senses. God has creayed bad thaughts and darkness then keep living with that. Guru Nanak Patshah guides Sikh that through Naam you will by sahaj win a control over five "Chors". One of them is Kaam. "Homosexuality is the mental and physical weakness a desease looking for an alternative way to attain satiation of carnal desires without any purpose. Sex is for procreation. Between men it has no result but enhancement of Kaam. So it is no where recommended nor is part of Sikhi or spirituality. Just saying it is God made therefore accept it. Then you were born naked live on like that. If you get hurt or sick do not get medicine let it be god's gift. Guru Nanak advises Sikh to Use wisdom for every thing even when giving charity. "Akli Daan"

You can do experiments with life using any arguments and justify whatever you do is right. But for a Sikh truth lies with in so listen while enrossing with naam within and you will get answer your very question puts you in doubt so to find truth do not seek answer from others but with in you.

Pray to Lord for giving you direction and right path. In Sikhi more than Knowledge faith is more important.
Naam Japo.

HPluthra

i dont deserve to be welcomed. i wont properly move to this forum, yet. i am still on sikhsangat.com.

we could argue being gay is ok and bad. i just want peoples opinions here. as written below...

oh and CC, try not to use the word "page", your reffering to maharaj as a "book", a direct insult. i am sure you never meant it like so. the correct term is "ang" meaning apart someone, in this case the gurus. therefore certain prayers can be found on limb.... (whatever).

id like someone opinion, do you think sikhi would allow homosexuality?


1. you wont be judged on your sexuality but your deeds

2. if homosexuality is wrong, why did god create it?


against it...

1. god made adam and eve for one another, not man for man, or woman for woman.

2. why in the anand karaj does it say man and woman being united with god and not man for man or woman for woman. why just man for woman. when clearly their were lesbians during the time of the gurus?

 

[hpluthera]

Dear Interfaith forum
The purpose of interfaith forum is to share and exchange spirtual knowledge of all religions to learn and create an understanding by identifying the positive messages but it is definitely not a place to preach one's own religion or undrmine the other by claiming suprior status as many do on your forum. Greatest interfaith conference was done by Guru Nanak Sahib by challenging the hyporacies of Brahmins in Benara, haridwar and Kurukhshetra, Mullahs in Mecca, Sidhs and many others. But at no time he undermind their faith. He pointed out them to he right direction with in their own belief systems and proved that all bogus rituals had neither any place in His faith systems nor were valid with their own faith systems bu they were misguided. Let us be tolrent wise and creative and supportive like Guru nanak and cary on the interfaith started by Guru nanak for all " Sabhe Ghat Raam Bole"

 

[hpluthera]

I appreciate where you come from but let me make it right that it is the Faith of an individual which makes even the Stone an epitome of Living God and very Holy. To some Bible might be very Holy to some only a Book and so is sri Guru Granth Sahib. So it is the Faith within that matters in order to light faith with in others that they revere what you revere one has to do their duty with pride keeping all protocall. Those who do not know what are the contents of SGGS could not revere as much as those who know. If all Hindus know that almost 3000 times Ram Naam is mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib would not he /she bow before it and similarly if a muslim knows that many times Allahs Name comes in the Guru Granth Sahib would not he/ She do Sajda to the Guru Granth.

So dear do not be angry just keep your faith strong and try to do the Prachar of Gurbani in right way with humility and sweetness not with anger and hatred or disrespect to others.

Through this forum if every one learns to improve upon what we know the purpose of this forum will be well achieved. We put forward our view point to test how wrong or right we are so that we get it right forever.

Regards

HPLuthera
HPluthera

To some extent, I tend to agree with kandola ji to use actual terms.

Here is an Example:
I went to my daughter's day care, and one of the kids saw me and discussion was as follows:
Kid: What is this man wearing on his head?
Teacher: Thats a hat, my dear.
Kid: Oh ok. May I have one?
Me (To Kid): Sure
Me (To Kid and Teacher): This is called a turban
Teacher: This kid is too young to understand these terms. Doesnt make a difference to him.
Me: Well, I dont underestimate kids that much. They have the fastest learning curves. And they deserve to get correct information as much as possible.

I dont know, if she got the point or not, but extending the same here, I agree the need to use correct terms. BTW, how many times, one has seen a person (of christian faith) saying for holy Bible, "This is our Guru Granth Sahib ji". But I find sikhs quick enough to respond, "This is like our Bible. We call this Guru Granth Sahib ji". Do you see the difference?

IMHO, So many translations have somehow lost the essence of original source.

Regards.

 

[hpluthera]

Two points one is tolerating an Homosexual second about right or wrong.

Let me clear one thing there is nothing orthodox in Skhi orthodoxy is a cultural thing so do one as an Homosexual seeking acceptance in the society is different that in house of Nanak.

As a Skh I have no problem what you do in your mind "Panj Chor" are hidden. "Kaam Karodh Lobh Moh Ahenkar" and Gurbani directs us to Naam to keep them in control to reach Him.

Homosexulaity is not a culture but a unleashed carnal desire with nothing but Kaam (one of the Chors of mind) in mind do not malign the beautiful word "Culture". "Sharam Dharam Doveny chap khalote Koor Reha Pradhan ve Lalo". Homosexulaity is "Koor".


But as soon as you do not have control on your five chors they will comit a crime and hurt some one or you and interfere in your attaining Naam awastha. So "man Jite Jag Jeet" stop discussing it try Naam to control it. It is stupidity to reveal your wound to scare others it is wisdom to repair them. Homosexuality is Kaam unbriddled and damaging for everyone around you so you should take refuge in Naam to briddle it and Balance your mind and become sahaj.
Gurbani recommends sahaj Marg of a Householder. Gurbani says" Parmesar Dita Bana........Anand Kare Nar Nari...." Shabad.

Any one sometime is responsible to tarnish the image of whole community. So if Nihung had one such evil person amongst them then the beans will spill on the community therefore all minority and particularly who carry otherwise good image have to be more careful., each one of use are not an individual but Ambassadors for our Family and Community first. So anyone before doing anything wron as a Sikh should not forget that.

We should also not hide or defend those who are guilty and try to get protection under the umbrellar of Temples/ or Religious Institutions.

If still you have not got it than only prayer by some sangat can grant you sumat.
regards
HP Luthera

Gurfateh

Well Das recently talked to his Mahant Ji(Head Monk) of Nirmala order and as per him there must not be much fus about any person if he is homosexual or lesbian.

In fact other Nirmala in UK Brother tSingh Ji also talked with das online on this issue(we had a slender campaigne against Nihungs of UK that they are phedelphia etc practicing people).

So what othodox or Santan Sikhs have to say is more like to tolrate people with such sexuality and be given a chance to unite with God and rather God can give them a chance if they come to Panth.

Like say in Deccan Sikhs may have tilak on thier head as it is thier local customs(only for Telugus) or say in Bihar we can wear dhoti.

So preachers can think that homosexuality is local culture of west or say a few Muslims.

As as orthodox part of Gurmat is concerned we try to over come over attraction towrads sex(Kok or Rati) as this can bring ion desire or Kama which is vice.

One must know that partner be it of opposite or same sex in ntemporay and not be loved as an individaul but God should be.

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

As per meaning orthodox das is making a claim that Sanatan Sikhs are same as they were at the time of Gurus and no change has brought into them.

Rember No Change lie in orthodox church.This just to bring in the mind of non Sikhs and Sikhs scholras alike we can have three distinctions.

1. orthodox like Sarbloh.info
2.Catholics like akj.org or sgpc.net
3.Protestant like sikhmarg.com

Das respect all as this is the tradition of orthodx who have tolrance to all.

Coming to homosexuality. Pleasue doing by man and female wrong person can misinterpert that they may not be husband and wife while what corerect here could be whole poputaliton irrestpective of sex does be in pleause by mercy of Guru/God.

Verse is Anand Karo Mil Sunder Nari ie do pleause after meeting beutifull wife.

Lastly das wants to say that sexultiy in genral even with wife is dichoraged if it berings in lust of Kama and not just by Homosexuals.

If we hate someone not like us we may not be able to make him/her like us. and das is not homosexual.

As per Gurmat evil deeds are by will of Akal and by will of Akal does a person becomes homosexual(evey thing under order and nothing ouot of order say Nanak if understand order(Will or Hukum) no one will say I am.

So Gurmat is way to surnder to Akal and let it happen knwingly that Akal does and if we ourself try to get out of five wise then as per Sukhmani Sahib it is said that till it is said that I do then again and again getting in womb(rebirth).

Das anyway did like your views and they are good for Punajbi communites who are Sikhs but when as a preacher we go to alien culture and this is found we can not just oppsoe it but try to sort it amicbly.(Das wants to tell that Nirmalas are preachers made by Guru himself and many of them do not consider Raagmala or Dasham Granth as per Gurbani but they not offend others).

 

[Jogindar Singh Kaur]

hpluthera--

Waheguruji ka Khalsa, Waheguruji ke Fateh!

Welcome. Please read this thread from the beginning. There are many voices here who might make you re-think many of your statements.

 

[hpluthera]

Dear Vijayadeep

Your text has many mistakes and hard to understand so in future edit please.
Sex is one of the hunger. If you are hungry and have no choice you satiate your hunger eating the worst food similarly if you are thirsty to the point of death you lose mind and for survival you can drink the dirtiest water. These two things are essential for survival but satiation of sexual hunger is not life threatening but those who do not practice control by mind using good sense and motivation go for rape peadafile or many other things bestiality, masturbation ( being least injurious to others) and homosexuality etc. Homosexuality is mind motivation a desease that is why they say be sympathetic to them. It is a Pscho Sexual disorder. People lack skill opurtunity abused etc or learn wrong sexual habits and indulge in it. You teach a child wrong language, wrong food habits he will grow with it. Desease must be cured and Naam Bani is the best at least it will give the mind a little bliss from these hungers and the other thing is deprivation of sex that is why in Sikhi Grahsth Ashram is the supreme. Live like a householder. Do not create homo couples that much sense even animals have you are humans. Misguided need lot of attention and guidance not total acceptance and encouragement. Sikhi does not change its teachings to oblige others Truth is always a truth. So do not be selective to be accepted by the Homos whose acceptability is already in question in many areas of society. Do not get sccumbed to it face and correct them.
HP Luthera

As per meaning orthodox das is making a claim that Sanatan Sikhs are same as they were at the time of Gurus and no change has brought into them.

Rember No Change lie in orthodox church.This just to bring in the mind of non Sikhs and Sikhs scholras alike we can have three distinctions.

1. orthodox like Sarbloh.info
2.Catholics like akj.org or sgpc.net
3.Protestant like sikhmarg.com

Das respect all as this is the tradition of orthodx who have tolrance to all.

Coming to homosexuality. Pleasue doing by man and female wrong person can misinterpert that they may not be husband and wife while what corerect here could be whole poputaliton irrestpective of sex does be in pleause by mercy of Guru/God.

Verse is Anand Karo Mil Sunder Nari ie do pleause after meeting beutifull wife.

Lastly das wants to say that sexultiy in genral even with wife is dichoraged if it berings in lust of Kama and not just by Homosexuals.

If we hate someone not like us we may not be able to make him/her like us. and das is not homosexual.

As per Gurmat evil deeds are by will of Akal and by will of Akal does a person becomes homosexual(evey thing under order and nothing ouot of order say Nanak if understand order(Will or Hukum) no one will say I am.

So Gurmat is way to surnder to Akal and let it happen knwingly that Akal does and if we ourself try to get out of five wise then as per Sukhmani Sahib it is said that till it is said that I do then again and again getting in womb(rebirth).

Das anyway did like your views and they are good for Punajbi communites who are Sikhs but when as a preacher we go to alien culture and this is found we can not just oppsoe it but try to sort it amicbly.(Das wants to tell that Nirmalas are preachers made by Guru himself and many of them do not consider Raagmala or Dasham Granth as per Gurbani but they not offend others).[/quote]

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Respected Luthra Sahib,

Das only wanted to say that lust with own wife is same as lust with homosexultiy.

It is not always that one becoem homosexual by his will often in childhood due to circumstance mind develops like that especialy in western culture and we can not call it desecce or disorder.

Dasham Granth has mention of homosexuality in Triya Charitar. but it is anti to forcefull same sex rape.

Coming back to such situations das would like to know as repeated before that this means that contrception or sterlisaton for family planing is also bad perhaps.

Das anyway agrees to you that Bani has power to reform for lustfull sexulity but it is in general for homosexuals as well Hetrosexuals.

Thing das here was discussing that should we allow Homosexual to come to refuge to Bani so that thier desire for lust goes as it goes from the Hetrosexuals.

any addicton can not be remvoed at onece but in phased manner.Being orthodox we are ready to tolrate such phases and chances to reform inspite of thier being risky and can sometime go unsuccessful but we will not give up.

It is similar as we deal with idol worshipping Hindus in Nirmalas,that we allow thier idols in our Akharas and do give them a chance to go after Gurbani sometimes they become Sikh like das himself while otherwise they remain a good Hindu.

when people are saying that Anand Marrige is also brahmanical rituals then how can it allow homosexual marrige?

some Radicals have such views that Anand marrige is also Brahmincal rituals like Amrit Sanskar then how can Amrti Sanskar be allowed to homosexuals.

But there is something called Naam Daan ceromany in Nirmalas.Where we are told to sing the glory in a specail way.for that one may or may not be Sikh and that thing Homosexual as per das can have.

After long practise they can reach the stage when they can ask for Baptism.Often most of the Nirmalas are calibate or unmarried but that does not make them higher to married one.

at last Das just want to say that to not to ahte homosexuals and let them have chance to join us.On our road or Panth one loss many things like five vices and on this road they will lose lust also.

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh
Luhtra Sahib,

As per few books or studied in some animals when they are drivan away from group say mighty male takes full control of heram or gruop of female then may weaker males turn homosexual to satisfy thier desire.

(Das does not want to let us be like animal but you gave this thing that animals are not homosexuals so das was compell to write this).

If we come out of Punjabi mentality then we can say that Khalsa does occupy the Throne of Avtar and Guru of Kaliyug at present.And we have power to make rules which Ten of our Gurus did not make but left it on us to be made via say Gurmata.

We can have this done via guidance of Guru Granth Sahib.As that book says that all is done by Akal and Puni Papi Akhan Nahi,Kar Kar Karna Likhi Laye Jaoo.

That may mean do not ask for sinner or good doer each hand's doing takes with it what is writtan or wanted by Akal.

We need to know that basic princeple of Panth is to see God in all and all deeds are acts of God.

Be it rapist or be it murderer or be it person like das.

 

[Jogindar Singh Kaur]

Lutheraji:

You are completely wrong when you equate homosexuality and lust. I could have lustful sex with anyone. I can ONLY fall deeply in love with a person of my gender.

Again, I ask you to please read this thread thoroughly. Your understanding of sexuality is not a bit scientific, and promoting dehumanizing falsehoods and stereotypes is not the Sikhi way.

In answer to Kandolaji's interesting questions, I have to say, since when did we believe in "Adam and Eve?" That's Judeo-Christian mythology, not reality. All scientific evidence points to humans evolving from primates, except that we've achieved the blessings of thinking and understanding the world around us much more thoroughly.

If the question is why Akalji created homosexuality, that's unanswerable until we meet the True Guru and ask. From an evolutionary history perspective, one of best theories out there is that it provides a survival benefit for kinship groups. To simplify, if you have three siblings, two heterosexual and one homosexual, you potentially have six adults for the children of four adults. In other words, the ratio of adults to children is, on average, higher in families with homosexual members than with all heterosexual members.

Also, it is not at all true that *all* societies condemn homosexuality. It is true for those societies that follow the Abrahamic religions, and those societies that have been converted (willingly or forcibly) to either Christianity or Islam. However, in ALL indigenous native cultures where the status of women is near or equal to men, homosexuals are either considered just another variation, or in some cases even a blessing, a sign of sacredness. There is a concrete relationship between how women are treated in a society and how homosexuals are treated in a society.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib clearly says to me that all humans are worthy of salvation. I have a partner of the same sex, we have been together 13 years and I am loyal to her. As anyone in a long-term marriage can tell you, it is not about lust, it is about partnership and growing in love together. Whether or not Anand Karaj is open to me does not bother me; it is ultimately a meaningless ritual. Guru Nanak says that if your heart is not in it, then ritual is empty. I'd rather my heart be in my relationship.

 

[halidarahman]

Lutheraji:

Thank you for your article. kuddus to you for standing up against blasphemy. One's sexual choice unfortunately has nothing to do with religious beliefs. I am straight but half of my friends are gay. Some of them are very spiritual. So I agree with you . great article ms. kaur.

 

[hpluthera]

Your quote below
"Thing das here was discussing that should we allow Homosexual to come
to refuge to Bani so that thier desire for lust goes as it goes from the
Hetrosexuals."

You or for that purpose any one else is onot having any owner ship for Bani of Sri Guru Granth so who are you to grant permit or denyit. Freedom of worship is fundamental in Sikhism. Seeking His blessings for right way is the Ardas. I do not know about Dassa Granth as lot of Banis are not authenticated and include writings of various writesr. I strictly stay with Sri Guru Granth Sahib no where else rest is just diversion.

Nirmlas or others if practice something must be misguided within themselves I do not beling to them nor interfere with them I believe in my Faith strongly and that is enouhg and so do I strongly favour do listen to Bani and ponder over you will get all answers better than just speaking out

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

this is not to be discussed here but logic by which many of the scholars try to paint Dasham Granth as Anti Gurmat can even to be used unto some verses of Guru Granth Sahib Ji to prove them in the same way.

Like wise the way Nirmalas are contrversial in the same way we can have good lots of contrversy with those scholras who are for radical Gurmat like followers of Babu Teja Singh Ji(das has respect for Panch Khalsa Dewan for some other reason anyway ie anti casteism).

Coming back to homosexuality and as das talked on this with Princepal Surjeet Singh Ji.

We so far have no provision of Anand Karaj in same sex. So homosexuals are technicaly dooooing adultray.So like a person who cuts his/her hair which is kurrahit is allowed to worship in the same way can be done with Homosexuals.

Das here used Sikh Rahit Maryada( by sgpc) to state Homosexuality as Adultary but there could be some parts of Panth who have differant codes or Maryadas and many other may have differant reading or interpetation of Rahit Maryada by sgpc also.(das here talks of ortodox or Sanatan Sikh with differnt ideaolgy which may not always consisder even adultary as wrong but order of Das do oppose adultray and talks of calibacy se sarbloh.info).

Das tenders an apology to Luthra Sahib if some wrong thing is writan and hope he will pardon das.

 

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Ji,

I have read quite a bit about this issue and have also spoken to many people who are homosexual, the saddest thing about this issue is that we can all CHOOSE to reject homosexuality, however a homosexual cannot CHOOSE to reject their sexuality therefore we can possibly condemn an innocent group of people for eternity for no reason whatsoever. I have not found an ounce of evidence to support a ban on same-sex anand karaj, anand karaj is not a marriage, shaadi, viaah or wedding. We need to look at the defnition of all others before looking at the anand karaj. A marriage is typically from a semitic backgound defined as: Gods blueprint for the continuity of his creation - this therefore suggests gender specificity. Anand karaj however is defined as: Gods blueprint for self realisation through the loving bond of a civil union. Therefore I can see no problem with same-sex unions in sikhism. The biggest defeat that dogma has faced is the evolution of society and homosexuality has defied all faiths bar sikhi as sikhi never took a position on sexuality only its over-indulgence. Which is with good merit.

Indy

 

[hpluthera]

Satsriakal Ji,

I have read quite a bit about this issue and have also spoken to many people who are homosexual, the saddest thing about this issue is that we can all CHOOSE to reject homosexuality, however a homosexual cannot CHOOSE to reject their sexuality therefore we can possibly condemn an innocent group of people for eternity for no reason whatsoever. I have not found an ounce of evidence to support a ban on same-sex anand karaj, anand karaj is not a marriage, shaadi, viaah or wedding. We need to look at the defnition of all others before looking at the anand karaj. A marriage is typically from a semitic backgound defined as: Gods blueprint for the continuity of his creation - this therefore suggests gender specificity. Anand karaj however is defined as: Gods blueprint for self realisation through the loving bond of a civil union. Therefore I can see no problem with same-sex unions in sikhism. The biggest defeat that dogma has faced is the evolution of society and homosexuality has defied all faiths bar sikhi as sikhi never took a position on sexuality only its over-indulgence. Which is with good merit.

Indy

Dear Indy
Civil Union has a place in some countires Legal Systems which has now recoganised same sex union not marriage. Marriage has a contract and objective and that is for the the continuation of the generation. In sexual relationship of two men or two women the scope is limited to sexual pleasure. The women has an egg and man has semens and the purpose of marriage is procreation and birth of a child. Nature is perfect and exploitation of nature is caused by some due to greed or sickness.

If you think overindulgence in food alcohal or other things is no good for one's health so is overindulgence in sexual pleasures. Food is for energy and maintaining good health exercise for healthy body sex for procreation.

So what is being recoganised by homo union it is just like opening as sex bar so you need a licence.

Religion is very straight on this matter and there is neither a confusion nor a doubt. Homo for just sexual pleasure and if any religion wishes to recoganise it and find a space let it be. I wonder why a Homosexual couple wish to be religiously married when they have gone against the sanctity of all religious beliefs except one .

There are hermaphrodites in India who worship joint image of Shiva and Parvati half side Man half side women and they marry by exchange of garlands.

Homosexuality is a demand supply issue those who missed on good relationship at right time indulge in this.

HP

 

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Hpluthera Ji

After reading my post and I would suggest you read all of this thoroughly I would like you to show me other than from your personal opinion how same-sex unions are not valid in Sikhism. :}--}:

“In sexual relationship of two men or two women the scope is limited to sexual pleasure.”

This sentence disturbs me as it shows a lack of understanding, let no relationship be a sexual one let all relationships be based on love and an expression of that love be sexual affection. I am quite horrified by the filthy twist that is put towards a homosexual relationship, these relationships are by two consensual adults who are committed to each other and put a lot into society if their conditions are not met we will have suicide, murder paedophilia all people have a place in society, creation was not handed to heterosexuals.

“Nature is perfect and exploitation of nature is caused by some due to greed or sickness.”

Another ignorant statement if I receive a response to my post along the same theme as this I will refuse to engage in debate, this is a serious issue and homosexual relationships are as natural as can be, not all people procreate and my understanding from sikhi is that a relationship is not for continuity of creation this is what we are lead to believe this is why there is so much break up in our society because we don’t focus on love, love is the only thing that will help you to push that much harder to resolve any conjugal issues that may be present in a relationship other than love a relationship just becomes a habit and when you have children you will just gain your love from them. There is no gree and no sickness homosexuals have surpassed in every field of human endeavour including sainthood, a lot of people will know that when Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji created the khalsa he mentioned that his aim was dusht of the tyrants that refused to allow the saints to repeat the name of god this was in response to the increasing number of executions by the then mughal emperor auranzeb, one of the saints was sarmad, wake-up call to everyone sarmad was a homosexual and look what sant naranjan singh ji says about him:

"During the time of Aurangzeb, a missionary came from Rome. He asked everyone the same two questions. "What is Patience, and what is Gratitude?" What do they mean? He would accept only an explanation that would remove all his doubts.

This missionary saw Aurangzeb and explained the aim of his visit. "You write Koran everyday. You are called the highest emperor. You have employed 1400 Muslim priests" he said. Everyone tried to explain through logic and examples, however, the missionary was not satisfied.

(Logic, arguments, and examples often lose the real essence, your vision becomes foggy. Gratitude and Patience are inter-connected. They are the two wings of spiritual life.)"

(Aurangzeb had a famous Saint by the name of Sarmud detained in the dungeon.)

"Now, this missionary wanted to see Sarmud also. So, he was taken into the dungeon to meet this Saint. He found this Saint in chains, but, when the missionary had his Darshan (saw the spiritual Glory) he immediately felt Peace. He bowed and presented his question, 'What is the meaning of Patience, and Gratitude?" This Sadhu said, "Come back tomorrow. I am going to be executed soon. I want to take a bath. Please bring me water and a piece of cloth for my last bath tomorrow. After that bath, I will demonstrate the practice the virtue of Patience and Gratitude. I will show it to you. Be sure to note down what you see.'

Next day at dawn, this missionary presented the Saint with water and a piece of cloth. This Saint stood up, and took a bath while in the chains. (Listen carefully now. Patience and Gratitude, is being explained.) He wrapped the cloth around his waist and closed his eyes in prayer. He asked this missionary to stand up, and to shut his eyes, also.

(People with a Spiritual Life impart their lessons by actually living them.) Sarmud put his spiritual hand on this missionary's head. Now the missionary started seeing what was previously invisible. He saw that there are countless spirits on one side ready to destroy the red fort with a magnificently adorned elephant waiting outside, ready to mount. They are all resting on Sarmud's palm, but he is gesturing to stop the destruction with the finger of his other hand.

Dhann (wonderfully glorious) is the Sadhu Sarmud! He is going to be executed. But he is telling these spirits to stop, do not destroy anyone! The Sadhu said, 'Look, Khuda (God) has made me so powerful and has given me anything I wanted. All my thoughts are soaked with gratitude. These chains on this body cannot bother me.'

'Second, and last demonstration of Patience will be tomorrow. You see, the executioner is sharpening his sword to chop my head off. You have seen that I can destroy the whole city with a gesture of my finger. But, I am not going to utter a curse, even! I will simply tolerate everything with greatest forbearance and contentment.'

(In fact, only a person with Contentment can live the life in Patience and the Gratitude.)

'My God has greatest Mercy on me so that, although I am being executed tomorrow, I am going to return only fortitude' Sarmud said.

The missionary bowed at his feet and returned to Rome with a real understanding of 'Patience' and
'Gratitude'."

(From: Anmol Bachan, p 44-5 - compiled by Sister Surjeet Kaur Gandhi)



Sarmad was in fact a gay martyr he was also a saint of dara shikoh who was a follower of Sri Guru Har Rai Ji also and was familiar with mystic lore, now a lot of people will say he was not gay here is proof it is a long read and I will continue below this, BTW the reason why Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji did not include thewritings of gay saints into SGGS was not because of their lifestyle he did a study of kachi and pakki bani, pakki bani is dhur ki bani:

Sarmad, a mystic poet beheaded in 1661

"Armenians in India" pp 167-77 ; pp 179-81 & p 194, by Mesrovb Jacob Seth - Calcutta 1937​

[167] Armenians and merchants have been synanomous words in India, for it was trade and commerce that attracted the Armenians to this tropical country from their homes in the delectable and snow-clad mountains of Armenia, from the days of remote antiquity.
Apart from eminent merchants, clever diplomats, great soldiers, able governors and administrators, casters of huge pieces of ordnance and manufacturers of firelocks, which, according to Marshman, "were superior to the Tower-proof muskets of the Company", the Armenians have given to India a poet of great merit whose fame spread over Mohammedan India as a saint and a scholar, in the middle of the 17th century, and to this day, his memory is revered and kept green by all lovers of the noble, the beautiful and the sublime, not only in this country, but in the countries where the charms of the beautiful language of the immortal Ferdosi. Nizami, Saadi, Hafez, Jami and Khayyam, have captured and captivated the imagination of millions.
But who was this remarkable poet whom even the mighty Emperor Aurungzebe, the last of the Great Moguls, dreaded and ultimately beheaded, as can be seen later on.
Let us first tap the European sources for reliable information about this remarkable Armenian.
In the Oriental Biographical Dictionary by Thomas William Beale, revised and enlarged in 1894 by that eminent Persian scholar and historian. Henry George Keene,(*1) [168] M.R.A.S., we find the following authoritative account of Sarmad :— "Sarmad, the poetical name of an Armenian merchant who came to India in the reign of the Emperor Shah Jehan. In one of his journeys towards Thatta, he fell so passionately in love with a Hindu girl(*2) that he became distracted and would go about the streets naked. He was well versed in the Persian language and was a good poet. In the beginning of the reign of Alamgir [Aurungzebe] he was put to death on account of his disobeying the orders of that Emperor, who had commanded him not to so about naked, This even took place about the year 1661 (1072 A.H.). Some say that the real cause of his execution was a Rubcu [quatrain] which he had composed, the translation of which is: "The Mullas say that Mohammad entered the heavens, but Sarmad says that the heavens entered Mohammad " His tomb is close to the Juma Musjid at Delhi. Following in the footsteps of his compatriots, Sarmad came out to India as a merchant from Persia by sea He set up in business in the town of Thathah in Sindh, on the shores of the Indus, where his business thrived exceedingly and he spent his days in comfort and peace. During his sojourn in that city he contracted a close friendship with a Hindu lad, Abhai Chand by name. This was the turning point in his life, for unlike his calculating and serious minded countrymen, he neglected his business, lost the equilibrium of his mind altogether and relinquishing his life of comfort and peace, he lived thenceforth the austere life of a naked Hindu fakir- (ascetic) and in this nude state he would go and sit at the door of his beloved Abhai Chand. The following translation of a distich shows the true sentiment of the distracted Sarmad : "I know not if in this spherical old monastery [the world} My God is Abhai Chand or some one else."
The boy's father seeing the earnestness of the ascetic, and the purity of the attachment, allowed him to come to his house with [169] the result that his son Abhai Chand became so much attached to Sarmad that he could not bear to live apart from him. Soon after this, both left Thathah and went to Delhi. Shah Jehan was then the Mogul Emperor of India. People flocked round Sarmad and many found him to be a man of great sanctity and supernatural powers.
The eldest son of the Emperor, the unfortunate prince Dara Shikoh, whose devotion to Brahmanical dogmas and theosophical beliefs is well known, was one of Sarmad's constant visitors and staunch admirers. It was Dara Shikoh who brought the miraculous powers of the saint, (Sarmad) to the notice of his august father, the Emperor Shah Jehan. The prudent Emperor deputed Inayat Khan, one of the Umara (grandees), of his Court to ascertain the real facts. The grandee visited the naked saint and his report was most favorable if not reassuring. Prince Dara Shikoh was one of the many disciples of Sarmad and the tutor had predicted that Dara Shikoh would be the next Emperor after Shah Jehan. Which prediction was not however fulfilled through the treachery of Aurengzebe who ascended the throne of the mighty Moguls by first imprisoning his father and then murdered his two brothers, Dara Shikoh and Murad Baksh.
Aurangzebe hated Sarmad for having been a partisan of Dara Shikoh on whom he had promised to confer the throne When Aurungzebe had usurped the throne, he taunted Sarmad about the succession of his favorite disciple, Dara Shikoh to the throne, which he had promised him. Sarmad calmly replied : “God has given him the eternal sovereignty and my promise is not falsified." Needless to add that the Emperor was greatly displeased and incensed with this sarcastic reply of the naked (*3) saint and from that moment he decided to put an end to that poor man's life. The favorable moment was [170] not long in coming, as Sarmad, who was a Sufi,(*4) had expressed sentiments of a heretical nature in the following distich, ridiculing the nocturnal journey of Mohammed to heaven .
"The Mullas say that Abroad went to heaven.
Sarmad says that heaven came down to Ahmad".
According to the Sufis who believe in the unity of the creator and the created, there is nothing objectionable in this doctrine, moreover as in the opinion of certain Ulama, the Miraj, or the nocturnal journey of Mahomed to heaven was allegorical and spiritual, but a fanatic and a bigot like Aurungzebe, could not possibly tolerate such a blasphemy, open and palpable, that was likely to shake the foundation of the Mohammedan faith.
The supreme moment had at last arrived for Aurungzebe to wreak his vengeance on the harmless naked saint and scholar and he immediately ordered his execution.
It is said that when the condemned man was being led away from the tribunal to the place of execution, he uttered, ex tempore, 24 quatrains. The crowd was so dense that one could pass through it with great difficulty.
When the executioner, a low caste man of the sweeper class, approached him with his naked sword, he wanted, according to custom, to cover the condemned man's head, but Sarmad hinted not to do it, then he smiled and addressing the executioner said :—
"The friend with naked sword has now arrived
In whatever disguise thou mayst come, I recognize thee,
He also uttered the following distich :
“There was an uproar and we opened our eyes from the eternal sleep.
[171] Saw that the night of wickedness endured, so we slept again".
Aqil Khan Razi, the court chronicler of Aurungzebe, writes that when the executioner was about to inflict the fatal blow, Sarmad uttered :
"The nakedness the body was the dust of the road to the friend,
That too was severed, with the sword, from our head".
According to another version Sarmad uttered :
"My head was severed from the body by that flirt, who was my companion,
The story was shortened, otherwise the headache would have been too severe".
One of the companions of Sarmad, one Shah Asadullah, went up to him and told him
"Do cover your nakedness and utter the creed in full and you will be let off".
Sarmad looked up, said nothing in reply but uttered the following couplet :
"A long time since the fame of Mansur became an ancient relic,
I will exhibit with my head the sallow and the cord”.
Sarmad died cheerfully and with complete resignation like every Armenian that has suffered martyrdom, for his religion, at the hands of the Mohammedans during the past 1300 years. Prince Dara Shikoh, the disciple of Sarmad, and the rightful heir to the throne of the Moguls, was beheaded by the order of his younger brother, that consummate hypocrite and fanatic Aurungzebe, in the year 1069 A.H. (1659 A.D.) and two years later, Sarmad shared the fate of his royal pupil, “and from that day", says a native historian, "the house of Timour declined both in glory and power".
He was beheaded in 1661 near the Jama MusJid at Delhi, for heresy, in the midst of an unprecedentedly huge crowd and though not a Mohammedan, yet he was buried under the steps [172] of the great mosque where his grave is venerated to this day, by Hindus as well as Mohammedans, who make offerings of flowers, light candles and burn incense on the saint's revered grave, after his martyrdom 275 years ago. Sarmad was considered well inspired and a man of sanctity.
The people of India have not forgotten that the harmless naked saint was killed by the order of Aurungzebe because he loved Dara Shikoh and championed his cause.
It is recorded that on the day of the execution, the Emperor said to the ecclesiastics (fudala) that a man was not liable to be executed merely for his nudity but that he should be required to pronounce the Islamic creed. Addressing the saint, they said "How is it that inspite of your great learning, you only utter the first half of the Kalima(*5) or creed and not the remaining part"? Sarmad replied that "I am still absorbed in the negative part, why shall I tell a lie"? So, according to this version, Sarmad's execution, at the suggestion of the Emperor was made according to the Islamic Law. So far as can be seen, the execution, in the opinion of the fanatic Aurungzebe, was necessary from a religious point of view.
Living the life of a nude mendicant, composing delightful quatrains, some of which may well be compared with those of Omar Khayyam, yet Sarmad interested himself in politics by becoming a partisan of Dara Shikoh whom he predicted to be Shah Jehan's rightful successor. This was gall and wormwood to Aurungzebe. Sarmad was the center of attraction to the public at Delhi. Dara was condemned and beheaded because of his apostacy and Sarmad was condemned and killed for having contributed partly to that apostacy. Deeply as he disliked his eldest brother Dara, for his politics and leanings towards the tenets of non-Muslims and mendicants, (majazib), his first act, as soon as he came to power, was to remove that arch heretic and those who had aided and abetted him in his apostacy and political activities. Sarmad who was a Sufi and [173] a mystic philosopher was a great Persian scholar and had read science and metaphysics with such well known and distinguished scholars as Mulla Sadr-ud-din Shirazi, Mirza Abul Qasim Fandarsaki and other eminent scholars of the time.
Sarmad was so filled with divine love that to him the king, the judge, the executioner, the whole universe, including himself, were the same. The soul itself and the universe were merged into Divinity. He had no consciousness of himself.
The following letter which Prince Dara Shikoh addressed to Sarmad shows the high regard the royal pupil had for his saintly master:
My Pir and Preceptor—
Everyday I resolve to pay my respects to you. It remains unaccomplished. If I be I, wherefore is my intention of no account? If I be not—what is my fault? Though the murder of Imam Hossain was the will of God: Who is (then) Yazid between (them). If it is not the Divine Will, then what is the meaning of "God does whatever He wills and commands whatever He intends”? The most excellent prophet used to go to fight the unbelievers, defeat was inflicted on the army of Islam. The exoteric scholars say it was an education in resignation. For the perfect what education was necessary?" Sarmad's reply to the above epistle consisted of two lines, in verse, which can be translated thus :—
“My dear—
What we have read, we have forgotten,
Save the discourse of the Friend which we reiterate.”
Sarmad's name stands prominent in the republic of letters. Daghistani calls him eminent in learning and Arabic scholarship. His impromptus are very popular in Delhi. His poems consist mostly of quatrains. In a quatrian(*6) Sarmad says that he follows Hafez in qazal and Omar Khayyam in rubaiyat.
[174] All the biographical works of the Persian poets that have been written after him contain appreciative and highly eulogistic notices of Sarmad.
His favorite companion and disciple, Abhai Chand who was the son of a wealthy Hindoo rajah, according to Nasrabadi, left his father, mother, home and wealth and adopted the life of a mendicant and took to sitting on ashes like the Hindoo faqirs. According to the same writer. Abhai Chand, died soon after Sarmad was beheaded through intense grief.
As we have said, Sarmad was a Sufi poet and there are verses which he composed that might be construed by a bigot as being against Islamic religion and on account of such opinion, he brought on his head the wrath of the Emperor Aurungzebe who was a stem puritan all his life and a bigoted champion of orthodoxy. His fanaticism, intolerance and his inordinate zeal for the Mohammedan religion were the main causes of the downfall of the glorious Mogul Empire in India.
Sarmad who was a theist, taunted the fanatic Aurungzebe with the following caustic quatrain ; declaring his religious convictions and openly proclaiming, to the chagrin of the Emperor, that he was not a Mohammedan.
It can be translated thus :—
“O ! King of Kings, I am not a hermit like thee, I am not nude.
I am frenzied, I am distracted, but I am not depressed,
I am an idolater, I am an infidel, I am not of the people of the faith,
I go towards the mosque, but I am not a Muslim.”
No complete collection of the quatrains of Sarmad have been published, though a few of them have been lithographed [175] at Lahore, Delhi and Bombay, with biographical notices of the poet in the Urdu language.
According to Dr. Rieu, more than 400 of the quatrains of Sarmad are preserved in MS. in the British Museum. There is in the well-known Oriental Library of Rampur State a MS. copy of the Diwan of Sarmad, containing the portrait of the poet, with his disciple Abhai Chand.
Francois Bernier, M.D., a French physician at the Court of Shah Jehan, writing of naked Hindu faqi'rs, in his Travels in Hindusthan, refers to Sarmad as follows :
"I have seen for a long while a very famous one in Delhi, called Sarmet, who went thus stark naked along the streets, and who at length would rather suffer his neck to be cut off, than to put on any clothes, what promises or menaces soever Aurung Zebe might send to him.
" On hearing of Sarmad's death, Bernier wrote as follows:—
"I was for a long time disgusted with a celebrated Fakir, named Sarmet, who walked in the streets of Delhi as naked as he came to the world. He despised equally the threats and persuations of Aurungzebe and underwent at length the punishment of decapitation for his obstinate refusal to put on his wearing apparel."
Another European, Niccolao Manucci, in his “Storia do Mogor” (as translated by William Irvine, 1901) writes :—
Vol. I, p. 223 : Dara held to no religion, when with Mahommedans, he praised the tenets of Muhammad, when with Jews, the Jewish religion ; in the same way. when with Hindus. he praised Hinduism. This is why Aurungzebe styled him a {censored} (infidel). At the same time, he had great delight in talking to the Jesuit fathers on religion, and making them dispute with his learned Mahommedans, or with Cermad [Sarmad] an atheist much liked by the prince. This man went always naked, except when he appeared in the presence [176] of the prince when he contented himself with a piece of cloth at his waist.”
And on p. 384, he says :
"After the death of his brother. Dara, Aurungzib ordered them to bring to his presence Acermaad [Sarmad], the atheist, to whom Dara had been devoted, and asked him where was his devoted prince. He replied that he was then present, 'but you cannot see him for you tyrannize over those of your own blood; and in order to usurp the Kingdom, you took away the life of your brothers and did other barbarities. On hearing these words. Aurungzebe ordered his head to be cut off."
We have seen in the beginning of this Chapter, on the authority of that well-informed author of the "Oriental Biographical Dictionary", that Sarmad was an Armenian who like his countrymen, had come to India for the purposes of trade. which in those days was the sole occupation of the Armenians in India. And in the prefaces to the Lahore and the Delhi editions of Sarmad’s quatrains (rubayat) by learned biographers he is called an Armenian by nationality and a Christian by religion yet there are some Mohammedan historians and biographers who say Sarmad was a Jew(*7) from Kashan in Persia and a convert to Islam.
There lived in Calcutta an eminent Persian scholar and a journalist, the late Syed Agah Jalaluddin-al-Hossaini, known as Muyyid-al-Islam, who was, by a strange coincidence, .a native of Kashan, the supposed birthplace of the poet, Sarmad. In order to satisfy ourselves about the vexed question of the poet s nationality we thought of seeking his advice in the matter some eight years ago as he was a great authority on Persian poets, their lives and their works. [177]
We called on the veteran journalist who had unfortunately lost his sight during the latter years of his life and found him lying on an easy chair, in the editorial office, dictating an editorial to his scribe for his favorite Hablul-Malin. After the usual salutations and compliments we asked the Persian sage about the nationality of Sarmad and the country he hailed from. He was greatly surprised that we, a countryman of the poet, should have any doubts in the matter, as Sarmad was known to be an Armenian from Persia. When we told him that a certain Mohammedan writer had said in a public lecture that Sarmad was a Jew from Kashan, he was -highly amused and remarked sarcastically that it was not possible for a persecuted, miserable, unkempt, unwashed and unlettered Jew of Kashan to rise to the proud and enviable position of a famous Persian poet.
When we were wishing him good-bye and expressing our thanks for his kind courtesy, the good old man wished to know the reason of our enquiry about the poets nationality. We told him that we intended writing an account of Sarmad in one of the leading Armenian journals and did not wish to commit ourselves, whereupon he said in an authoritative tone, “go and write that Muayyid-al-Islam says that Sarmad was an Armenian from Iran" (Bero benevis khe Muayyid-al-Islam meegooiad khe Sarmad Armanee bood az Iran).
Sher Khan Lodi, who was a celebrated poet in the reign of the Emperor Aurungzebe and had ample opportunities of seeing Sarmad, states, in his Life of poets, called Maratal Khial, that Hakhim Sarmad was an Armenian from Faranghisthan (Europe) and was originally engaged in trade when he came out to India.
....
[179]There are some interesting anecdotes, founded on traditions, about the supernatural powers of Sarmad, prevalent amongst the people of Delhi to this day, for the truth of which we cannot vouch. It is said that the Emperor Aurungzebe who was a puritan, had strictly forbidden the use of bhang as a narcotic because of its deleterious effects. One of the many spies of the King reported to him that Sarmad, in defiance of the royal fiat, was addicted to the vice of smoking bhang and that he kept the drug in an earthen pot near him always wherever he sat. This was good news for Aurungzebe who was always trying to find fault with the poet whom he hated with a deadly hatred. He paid a sudden visit to Sarmad and found the poet lecturing to his disciples. He at once noticed the earthen pot and asked Sarmad what it contained. The poet suspecting that the Emperor had been apprised of the contents of the earthen pot, replied nonchalantly that it contained some milk and on the Emperor pressing him to show him the milk, Sarmad most unconcernedly uncovered the pot and lo and behold there was milk in it. His disciples who knew what the earthen pot contained originally were simply amazed and spread the news of the miracle performed by their master in converting the harmful bhang into harmless milk.
There is another anecdote equally interesting. One day Sarmad was watching a mollah praying earnestly and with great devotion in the Juma Musjid at Delhi. The poet told his followers that the mollah's god was under his (Sarmad's) feet. A spy immediately carried the news to Aurungzebe who was praying in the mosque at the same time, it being a Friday. The irate Emperor came up to Sarmad and ordered him immediately to give a satisfactory explanation for his blasphemy. Sarmad who could never be intimidated by Aurungzebe, told him to send for the mollah and ask him to confess what he was praying for. The nervous ecclesiastic, who was trembling in his shoes in the presence of the stern monarch, nolens volens confessed that he was praying to God to grant him some money to enable him to get his daughter married.
Sarmad remarked that the mollah had spoken the truth for once in his life and asked Aurungzebe to get his men to dig [180] the ground where he stood and on digging the place they found some gold coins buried there.
Sarmad was jubilant over the discovery and told the astonished Emperor in his usual cynical tone that he was not wrong when he said that the mollah's god was under his feet.
Aurungzebe was nonplussed and confounded but the news spread with lightening speed that Sarmad had worked another miracle.
Any wonder then that Aurungzebe hated Sarmad with the deadly hatred of a fanatic and wished to put an end to the life of an unbeliever who was looked upon as a saint and a holy man by the public in the early years of his reign of intolerance and religious persecution.
Whilst these lines were passing through the press, we were informed by the gallery assistant of the Delhi Fort Museum that there is an inscription on Sarmad's tombstone.
We reproduce his letter which is as follows :—
"In reply to your enquiry. I beg to inform you that at the head of Sarmad's grave, there is a masonry pillar with lamp niches and on it has been fixed an incised slab of stone containing
the following inscription in Persian :—
Which can be translated thus :—
When Shah Sarmad in the reign of Alamgeer
[Aurungzebe] set out on a journey to Paradise.
Poor Akbar said the date,
"This is the grave of Sarmad the Martyr”.
The people in Delhi greatly venerate the grave of Sarmad and daily burn lights and incenses and sprinkle fresh roses and flowers on it. The Muslims who come to Delhi from far and near never miss a visit to the grave of this saint. Besides, the musicians sing religious songs at the grave of Sarmad nearly every evening and particularly on Thursdays. A class of [181] illiterate Muslims also celebrate the festival of Basant near its grave."
Peace to his soul, rest to his ashes and may the revered memory of the great poet be cherished and kept green, for ages to be, in the land where he suffered martyrdom for his open defiance of Islamic rituals and customs.
....
[194] We cannot conclude this chapter without recording our grateful thanks to Hakim Habibur Rahman, the well-known Yunani physician of Dacca and a good Persian scholar, for having brought to our notice, some eight years ago, that the renowned poet SARMAD was an ARMENIAN. ....
Notes
(*1) [167] Keene is the author of several learned works on Indian history notably of the Mogul period. His Turks in India and The Mogul Empire are master-pieces. He has compiled interesting Guide Books to Delhi and Agra, replete with historical and topographical information. He was Judge at Agra in 1879.
(*2) [168] According to Mohammedan historians and biographers it was a Hindu lad of the Bunnia caste, Abhai Chand by name.
(*3) [169] In a quatrain (rubai) addressed to his relentless persecutor the Emperor Aurungzebe, Sarmad gives the reason of his nudity: “He who save you the sovereignty of the world. Gave me all the causes of anxiety. He covered with a garment those who had any fault (deformity) To the faultless he gave the robe of nudity."
(*4) [170] For a history of the origin and the growth of Sufism in Persia, see the note at the end of this Chapter.
(*5) [172] The first part of the Kalima, which is in Arabic, can be translated thus : "There is no God but God" (La Ala Allalah) and the second part, "And Mohaaunad is his prophet" (Mohammad rasool Allah). It was quite natural that Sarmad refused to utter the second part of the Kalima, not being a Mohammedan.
(*6) [173] Sarmad pays a well-deserved compliment to Hafez and Khayyam, two of the greatest poets of Persia, in the following quatrain :— "I have no business with the fancy and thought of others, In composing a ghazal I adopt the manner of Hafez, But in rubai, I am a disciple of Khayyam, But do no quaff much of his wine."
(*7) [176] There are no records of Jews coming to India from Persia for the purposes of trade in the 16th, 17th or 18th centuries. The Sassoons, the Jacobs and other merchant princes of Bombay came From Baghdad in Mesopotomia, so did the Ezras, the Gubbays and the Manassehs of Calcutta in the early part of the l9th century.


So to conclude folks there is no problem with sexual orientation all people have a place on this earth and unions are not for creation such a purpose is not compatible with Sikhism.

“Homosexuality is a demand supply issue those who missed on good relationship at right time indulge in this.”

This makes me laugh you do not have the slightest clue my friend people are homosexual from birth!!!!!. Now you have at times talked of other faiths rejecting homosexuality this is not true no religion rejects homosexuality, because Sodom was destroyed as men were raping other men they were not in a committed homosexual relationship and any way semitic faiths are “farishta ka din” not dhur ki bani, there is a significant difference because farishta has a purpose in the cscheme of gods creativity therefore any message to do with god has been muddled with their own purpose, for instance satan was fallen and exists in hell, but there is no such things as heaven and hell for man because creation was given for man to live in , heavenly bodies such as farishtas have hells and heavens but these are not for man. I have wrote an essay on this issue I am posting it here and you will be hard presses to find anything to qualify your claims that homosexual relationships are not valid, happy reading:

Homosexuality A Bias Sikh Perspective

I have decided to write this essay in response to the ‘coming out’ (pardon the pun) on this subject by the clergy , I am disgusted that these people are our spokesmen/women they don’t have a clue about the wider world and I don’t think any of them have ever been in love.




PERFECT FAMILY
I have yet to experience this concept, lived in the west for 20 years and have learned that love is our greatest culture people say we need a male and female role model my grandfather was a paedophile ,suffering made his children better people they didn’t turn into paedophiles. So what if 2 men look after a child, I think its worse to raise a child on your own I mean 2 heads are better than one, our mother Mata Sahib Kaur devan was a virgin all her life, she was a virgin for a reason and that is that the perfect mother has no biological link with her children the perfect link is through the spirit which is in the sacrament of amrit the double edged sword destroys all earthly distinctions including sexual orientation, that fraternity are bound by the common love of a mother and father that need not give birth to them that is truly the perfect family unit.

BHAI KHANNAIYA JI

This man administered water to both the enemy and the khalsa without discrimination, this angered a portion of the sangat, he was forced to present himself before the guru when asked why he quenched the thirst if the enemy he said to the guru it is you who has said ‘it is the same light that exists in all’, the guru then gave Bhai Khannaiya Ji some ointment and said go do your job properly, the group of Sikhs which acted in outrage were shamed. Tell me if I were to go before the SGPC and state that the same light exists in 2 people regardless of their gender and that being the reason I support same sex marriages do you think I would be presented with a siropa? I think not the SGPC are new-age masands and nothing else.

GURDWARA AND LOCKEROOM

There are many similarities between a gurdwara and a lockeroom they both are separated by gender, in the lockeroom its for modesty reasons in the gurdwara it’s for allowing the sangat to focus, maybe we should now make a third division for homosexuals, NO!!!. In my opinion the gurus taught man to awaken his moral responsibility hence rejecting the purdah of Islam, we have lost sight of the teachings of our gurus.

BABA VADHBHAG SINGH JI

*Please do not turn this debate into an argument about dhirmalias*

Pseudo-saints have argued that a marriage is between the female part of the soul and the male part, if a person becomes possessed by a spirit prior to marriage it is possible at the point of marriage for a soul to be married to its host and new partner. I have seen this in the symbolic reverse-lavans that take place at Manji sahib at dera Baba Vadhbhag Singh Ji in the mountains in HP the man or women who is possessed have to walk backwards around the bir they call it putthe-lavans _(backward circambulation) this may sound silly, but it has symbolic implications for a soul ,and the host divorces its parasitic soul, this can happen with the dead soul of a male with a living male and vica versa for a female, this long winded explanation proves there is no such thing as female and male soul, gender is limited to this mortal coil anything to the contrary is crap.

TIME/YUG

Homosexuality has existed from the beginning of time anyone who says it’s a western thing or kaljug are blind, orthodoxy is something that has crept into our faith because people choose to follow a conduct blindly without understanding its message, these people are an embarrassment, sikhi is a liberal faith, we can update our praxis as we see fit, deification of our glorious history has lead to an imbalance of thought and no spontaneity when it comes to making political decisions. There are no schisms in sikhi just schizmoids parading as jathedars.

LOVE
A homosexual male can only love a women as a sister or mother figure or friend NEVER as a lover, so the definition of man and women being the perfect family unit is flawed and as we strive for sarbat da bhalla this does not look after the welfare of homosexuals. A heterosexual person will always find it hard to digest homosexuality therefore we should let homosexuals themselves be the measure of their love and commitment towards one another this is not a discussion for religion it is outside the realms of loving god because god loves all regardless of their sexuality god even created homosexuality, amrit is viable for gays and lesbians alike i wonder if a hermaphrodite has ever taken amrit?.


BESTIALITY AND PEODOPHILLIA etcetc
What if tomorrow people, whose sexual preference is bestiality, want to marry animals?
Homosexuality is consensual like heterosexuality, bestiality and paedophilia can NEVER be consensual. Religion teaches us not to be obsessed with sex, people have taken the opinion that homosexuality is just sexual and have given total disregard to the minute possibility of a homosexual relationship having anything to do with LOVE, in this respect I believe testosterone has got the better of these scholars and they may want to control their androgynous fervour by being more open minded (not weak!), don’t you know its a kurahit in sikhi to have lust?.

SEMITISM
Sikhi teaches us to establish a relationship with the divine this is possible to any human being regardless of their sexual habits. People mention Sodom and Gomorrah which were destroyed supposedly by gods wrath, OUR RELIGION IS NOT SEMITIC WE HAD A DIRECT REVELATION FROM GOD, Quran which depicts this story is an indirect revelation from an angel called Gabrielle, angels are not without sin Satan being a good example, that is the beauty of sikhi all our gurus ,pirrs ,bhagats had the same perspective if you cant see god in all you cant see god at all!!!!!. Please dont bring other religious traditions into consideration when discussing issues such as these we will not follow by example of other traditions but come into our own, and if people find that hard to digest then let them choke we have made a lot of sacrifices as minorities, and should therefore understand the position of other minority groups!!.

ANAND KARAJ
Anand Karaj: the union of 2 souls not a {censored} and a vagina! People talk about family life preferable over celibacy and promiscuity WRONG AGAIN!!!, sikhi rejects gristhi and sanyasin and commands us to be sant sipahi (teesri panth), on the battlefield you will not shy away from the protection of a khalsa if he or she is homosexual. The 4 lavans talk about marriage being essential so that we help spiritually nourish one another through our love for one another and achieve union. Some people say homosexuality is a disease or a disability I know of homosexuals which have excelled in every field of human endeavour including sainthood! Culture has had a large impact on the way we marry there was never any circambulation of GGS during lavans this is bipran-mat that has crept into our faith therefore further reinforcing gender stereotypes ie, the brothers have to hold the sister cos she’s a girl and she’s really weak and might start crying but we all know its so she doesn’t do a legger! (lol).

HUMAN PURPOSE
It was never mans purpose to have children or continue the human race it is to learn to love one another and through that wonder, fall in love with god if these conditions are not met for all types of people we will have what we have to day a stagnant society, just because you tell people homosexuality is a crime punishable by death has not stopped god causing to be born homosexuals within those very regimes, so how many time will we keep falling on the same hurdle until we learn to accept that it is a reality and we should understand and integrate it within the doctrines of sikhi instead of applying self appropriated notions of common sense and decency to situations we can never understand. This dilemma is the same as the diabolic interpretations western and eastern scholars have made of our faith, in general we have to suffer their short comings and lack of understanding cos our own people have not made any satisfactory attempt of rebuttal of their writings and in the same way these people are jumping on the same bandwagon with every other dogma encrusted religious tradition by saying that homosexuality defies the lords will and is against nature, but really they are disgusted with homosexuality and its various camp stereotypes. The sad reality is that we are becoming like the mughal emperors, they were people who never repeated the lords name whilst they were alive but were quick to hide behind their religion when executing our gurus, such narrow minded conceited people who never took the time to understand the message behind something DIFFERENT.



AIDS
People talk about sodomy and aids, yes their right, knowingly spreading any disease is a sin but what does that have to do with homosexuality? this is a discussion about the civil union of 2 people who are in love, their bedroom antics are not open to discussion. Raping men by sodomy I believe is the sin in the city of Sodom, love was never in the equation, if sodomy is the sin then how will we find the sin of lesbians?


SAME SEX MARRIAGES
Can there ever be homosexual marriages in sikhism?
Not until several generations have passed, because by that time the people who run the temples with orthodoxy will have been dead and buried and the liberal nature of sikhi will then surface and who knows, I mean, if we can marry a child to an old man in India god knows what we can do outside of India? (im being sarcastic).



waheguru ji ka khalsa whaeguru ji ki fateh!

Inderjit Singh Dhillon

Ps: if I have offended you I apologise profusely a thousand times I don’t mean any animosity i am just passionate about sikhism NOT about homosexuality, but if someone is going to introduce a subject regarding sikhi for the first time, which by the way I commend the clergy for, I feel it is a learning curve for all of us to engage in debate that way we can find a position that is amicable to all of us and that my friends is SARBAT DA BHALLA.

 

[drkhalsa]

Homosexuality is a demand supply issue those who missed on good relationship at right time indulge in this.

HP

Dear HP JI


your above statement is absolutely wrong

No homosexuality is not always by choice

There could be people who will fit in your defination of homosexuals but we are not talking about them
we are talking about the people how are homsexuals from birth ( believe me this right it has benn proved medically that this trait has its origin in the womb of a mother ) and not by choice.


Jatinder Singh

 

[ISDhillon]

Drkhalsa ji Satsriakal,

Your message was great, I dont know whether the forum is aware but in november Iran executed two 14 year old boys for being homosexual and I saw this on tv and the footage was harrowing the 2 boys were crying and were taken to the hangman and hanged and this hurt me to the core of my soul and I am usually not a soft person but I think if I didnt have faith in guruji I would have gone mad witnessing such zulum, which is what our guru fought years to uproot but today some sikhs are a hypocrisy to that undying love those old khalsa people had years ago.

Thankyou for your message,

Inderjit Singh Dhillon