Sikhs For Change: Language - A Barrier For New Sikhs?

[kanwal295]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Dear Khalsa Starr
Thank you for sharing your predicaments and the shortcomings of the Sikh Panth. You have valid views. I agree that the Guru Granth Sahib imparts its full meaning and understanding when read in Punjabi as there are many words that do not have an equivalent in English. But it takes time to learn Gurmukhi and understand Gurbani's level of Gurmukhi. Yet I also agree with your sentiments for not only the newbies like you mentioned but also for the so called born into Sikh Faith who may know Gurmukhi yet do not understand Gurbani. In a couple of the Gurdwaras here in Auckland, New Zealand, we have a laptop and digital projector installed and the Shabads are instantly downloaded from websites while the raagi is singing and when the Hukamnama is read so that they can be understood better. There is no reason why this cannot be done in all the gurdwaras and put up notices in English. One lament that I have is that our raagis and granthis should have a mandatory course in English especially if they are serving communities overseas. The Sikh Panth has a long way to go to have on the spot literature available in English about Sikhism for the curious and unknowledgeable about Sikhism. Gurdwaras must also organise Gurbani study groups rather than leave this to the few people who are interested to learn more. You are right ...Gurdwara is a place to learn and be illumined for you have come to the Guru. Don't lose heart my brother but keep hammering at the Gurdwara committees to provide state of the art service.
Waheguru bless you.
Kanwal Jit Singh

 

[Joginder Singh Foley]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

the best way to overcome this is find yourself a copy of SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI with English,punjabi and gurmukhi that way you will get the best of both worlds at first you will only read the english part only but like me a time willl come when you will start to read the punjabi as with as the english great for language skills and understanding our Guru's teachings and our beliefs

 

[kanwal295]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh.
These days there are various websites that actually have Gurmukhi, Hindi, Romanised and English translation on the same page and therefore has become a great read. Many years ago these were not available except for scarcely available translations. People should make the most of it now and become knowledgeable in Gurbani. Once you take up Simran practice and in time you will get the inner guidance as well, for to understand Gurbani one needs spiritual acumen too.
Gur fateh
Kanwal Jit Singh

 

[Amrik Singh]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Gurfateh!
I know what you are speaking about !
Myself I am understand little Punjabi and speak even less so I relie on translations .It is not a problem do not forget that many Gurbanis of Sry Guru Granth Sahib are also difficult to understand for punjabi without translation in modern Punjabi and most of the Dassam Granth is not even in Punjabi.
So do like me: lissen Kirtan ,let the state of mind manifest in the Sangat touch your heart and read translations and internet many sites in english and make some seva when some body is speaking to long.

 

[Tomash]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Hello everybody,

Iam interested in sikhism for two years and few months ago Ive started to learn punjabi. Now Ive just finished an introductory book. Ate Mera kitab pujke chhota hai . Id like to ask you a two questions, because in my city I dont know any sikh very well, and not much of them live here. Id like to know, if I learn presentdays punjabi, whether I will be able to understand Adi Granth. And my second question is, whether you could recommend me some self-study book. Ive read some on Amazon.com, but all of them had bad comments.
Thank you for any advice, which would be able to get over this language obstacle.

greetings from Prague

 

[NamHariKaur]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Sat Naam Tomash;

I highly recommend Christopher Shackle's "The Sacred Language of the Sikh Guru's." This is probably the best thing available if Punjabi is not your native tongue. Indeed I don't think there is anything else comparable in English. This is essentially the grammar (and a lot of vocabulary) of the Guru's Gurbani. I suppose if you can read and comprehend modern Punjabi well enough there might be better books in that language for studying the 300 to 500 year old version in which the Guru's wrote.

The same author also complied a "Glossary of Guru Naanak" which I have found to be wonderfully helpful as well. Up through the 5th Guru, the vocabulary did not change terribly much, whereas Guru Gobind Singh's writing contain many many more words incorporated by his time.

I should add that these books have become expensive. I bought the glossary for $20 or $25 and the Grammar Language book for $30 in 2005 and one year later could not get the Language book for less than $50 when buying it for a friend. Most copies at that time 2006 summer were about $80. Some were $120!
A used copy for sale has probably not been used at all and is likely to be a better bargain. Also there is a paperback version of the more expensive Language book and you could save money that way.


Once you have some vocabulary learned, (and there is a lot of vocabulary provided in Schackle's language/grammar book), then to extend your vocabulary Sukhmani Sahib is excellent because in many ashtapaudi's each line begins with the same two or three word phrase, so that there are only a few other words. Often you can tell from the English translations (even when poor) what the essential qualities of a new word's meaning are when there are so few unknown words in the line. Sukhmani Sahib is also quite long too so a very lot can be learned. The additional blessing is that Sukhmani is some of the most beautiful poetry written by the Gurus.

My studies of Gurmukhi began 3 years ago at this time and those are the materials I used most. This has been a very rewarding experience for me, on virtually a daily basis. One of the bigger challenges is of course pronunciation and there are no CDs with these two books. I presume you have done something already to deal with issues of pronunciation. What I do now is take Hukams online at Sikhnet. Then I read the hukam myself and work on reading it well. Finally I play the audio version available by putting the same page number in at www searchgurbani com Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji age 227:SearchGurbani.com ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ[/FONT]

The pronunciation and reading style of the reader there seems to me to be very good.

There is a good tape of Gurmukhi pronunciation - I got it from either ancient healingways website Ancient Healing Ways - Natural, Organic and Spiritual Products - Online Store
or else Spirit Voyage Music : Welcome to Spirit Voyage Music Tried to find it just now at both sites but didn't see it. It's there somewhere though. I wish I had gotten the tape much sooner than I did because it is better than "bani pro" and other training aides. The focus in this tape is purely the alphabet and vowels. There are also about 20 rules about pronunciation given for a wide variety of situations occurring in words.

I can't say much about how well modern Punjabi prepares you for understanding the Siri Guru Granth Sahib. I know a lot of words are no longer in use and others have replaced them and I know there are some grammatical changes, but that is all I know.

It is a happy day for me when I hear someone is learning to read Gurmukhi! Every effort you make will bring rewards.

Wahe Guru Ji Kaa Khalsa,
Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh!

Nam Hari Kaur, Eugene, OR

Hello everybody,

I am interested in sikhism for two years and few months ago I've started to learn punjabi. Now Ive just finished an introductory book. Ate Mera kitab pujke chhota hai . Id like to ask you a two questions, because in my city I dont know any sikh very well, and not much of them live here. Id like to know, if I learn presentdays punjabi, whether I will be able to understand Adi Granth. And my second question is, whether you could recommend me some self-study book. Ive read some on Amazon.com, but all of them had bad comments.
Thank you for any advice, which would be able to get over this language obstacle.

greetings from Prague

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Hello everybody,

Iam interested in sikhism for two years and few months ago Ive started to learn punjabi. Now Ive just finished an introductory book. Ate Mera kitab pujke chhota hai . Id like to ask you a two questions, because in my city I dont know any sikh very well, and not much of them live here. Id like to know, if I learn presentdays punjabi, whether I will be able to understand Adi Granth. And my second question is, whether you could recommend me some self-study book. Ive read some on Amazon.com, but all of them had bad comments.
Thank you for any advice, which would be able to get over this language obstacle.

greetings from Prague

i think it will help. i'm also learning punjabi, and i think i learn more vocabulary from reading Guru Granth Sahib ji than from my punjabi lessons.

one thing you should do is listen to recitation of gurbani in audio form, this will help a lot with pronunciation, which can be very difficult for westerners.

although linguistically speaking, czech is somewhat related to punjabi, so it will probably be easier for you to learn than for most native english speakers.

good luck!

 

[Amrik Singh]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

gurfateh.
some languages like lituanian , greeck,armenian ,iranians languages, and even more so romany are much closer to punjabi than english.for english speaker it is quite difficult .also older poepel are, the more difficult it become.
so the propagation of Sikhi must not depend on the learning of punjabi and Gurmuki .second or third generation punjabi often do not know punjabi well
so it is an exelent solution to have a translation appearing on a big screen like in some Gurdwara in the us and few other countries .translations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and most of Dassam Granth are available free on line and very much Kirtan and Path is available free online with translation at the site "Raj Karega Khalsa".you can listen the Nit Nem in english at http://www.keertan.org/andromeda

 

[Amrik Singh]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

gurfateh.
some languages like lituanian , greeck,armenian ,iranians languages, and even more so romany are much closer to punjabi than english.for english speaker it is quite difficult .also older poepel are, the more difficult it become.
so the propagation of Sikhi must not depend on the learning of punjabi and Gurmuki .second or third generation punjabi often do not know punjabi well
so it is an exelent solution to have a translation appearing on a big screen like in some Gurdwara in the us and few other countries .translations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and most of Dassam Granth are available free on line and very much Kirtan and Path is available free online with translation at the site "Raj Karega Khalsa".you can listen the Nit Nem in english at http://www.keertan.org/andromeda

 

[svea00]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Hi Tomash!

I´ve also just started to learn Punjabi. But I didn´t came as far as learning the script, so that I can read the textes but don´t know what they mean.
I downloaded the SGGS in Gurmukhi, roman script and English translation from sikhnet.com. I read frequently and am getting somehow faster and learning vocabulary. They´ve also got a gurbani mp3 downloading section. I can recommend the bani pro stuff, its pronounced quite clearly and she doesn´t speak so fast.
For the script. Google Gurmukhi script and you will find some links. I bought also the Panjabi made easy. It´s ok, but doesn´t really deal with the grammar.

Thank you, Nam Hari Kaur for the book recommandations. I really need to learn the grammar too. I have a living language Hindi at home, but think that it wouldn´t be such a good idea to learn the hindi script too, just to learn some grammar. Could be confusing.
And actually I´m not sure how much alike these languages are.

 

[Amrik Singh]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

i must ad to the site adress above that you can find Gurbani Path etc... in the section "multi media"

 

[Tomash]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Iam novice, but Iam daring to say that to know hindi is good for learning punjabi. My first impression was that gurmukhi is one third hindi, one third persian and one third the rest influences. But the alphabet and gramma is rather similar to hindi. Its origin lays in ancient brahmanic language

Hi Tomash!

I´ve also just started to learn Punjabi. But I didn´t came as far as learning the script, so that I can read the textes but don´t know what they mean.
I downloaded the SGGS in Gurmukhi, roman script and English translation from sikhnet.com. I read frequently and am getting somehow faster and learning vocabulary. They´ve also got a gurbani mp3 downloading section. I can recommend the bani pro stuff, its pronounced quite clearly and she doesn´t speak so fast.
For the script. Google Gurmukhi script and you will find some links. I bought also the Panjabi made easy. It´s ok, but doesn´t really deal with the grammar.

Thank you, Nam Hari Kaur for the book recommandations. I really need to learn the grammar too. I have a living language Hindi at home, but think that it wouldn´t be such a good idea to learn the hindi script too, just to learn some grammar. Could be confusing.
And actually I´m not sure how much alike these languages are.

 

[futurekaur]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

I have the C. Shackle book out from the library and it is very helpful. I don't find Gurmukhi very difficult. It is very phonetic, there are no difficult and complex verbs (think of Latin!) maybe speaking Panjabi will be a challenge for me but I won't worry. It's great to study and then read the Guru Granth Sahib in Gurmukhi then Romanized version to see how you are progressing, just recognizing letters....

 

[futurekaur]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Someone in this thread or another mentioned Amarjit Kaur's CD of Daily Bani; this is now on sale now for $7 at SpiritVoyage.com
I just bought it, thanks! and wanted to tell others...

 

[spnadmin]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

futurekaur ji

I believe it was me. The CD was much more expensive when I bought it. So thanks for letting others know. Do you find that Amarjit Kaur is very clear and words are easy to make out?

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

What has been especially helpful for my nitenam is something you can download free.

You need to download Mozilla Firefox:
Firefox - Choose a Better Browser
Then go to Add-ons and select Downloadhelper. It's a program within Firefox that allows you to download video from Youtube to your computer.

Nitenam banis:
YouTube - Japji Sahib - Sikh Prayer
YouTube - Jaap Sahib - Sikh Prayer
YouTube - Tav Prasad Savaiye - Sikh Prayer
YouTube - Chaupai Sahib - Sikh Prayer
YouTube - Anand Sahib - Sikh Prayer
YouTube - Rehiras Sahib (Sampooran) - Sikh Prayer
YouTube - Kirtan Sohila - Sikh Prayer

 

[Archived_Member1]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

What has been especially helpful for my nitenam is something you can download free.

You need to download Mozilla Firefox:
Firefox - Choose a Better Browser
Then go to Add-ons and select Downloadhelper. It's a program within Firefox that allows you to download video from Youtube to your computer.

Nitenam banis:
YouTube - Japji Sahib - Sikh Prayer
YouTube - Jaap Sahib - Sikh Prayer
YouTube - Tav Prasad Savaiye - Sikh Prayer
YouTube - Chaupai Sahib - Sikh Prayer
YouTube - Anand Sahib - Sikh Prayer
YouTube - Rehiras Sahib (Sampooran) - Sikh Prayer
YouTube - Kirtan Sohila - Sikh Prayer

i love these videos, they are EXCELLENT pronunciation guides. the Gianis of Damdami Taksal spend years learning the art of Santhia, Gurbani pronunciation and grammar. i have this audio CD and love to listen to it to help improve my pronunciation.

you can also get them (in multiple variations - good for learning Gurmukhi too!) at .:: Raj Karega Khalsa Network ::. Gurbani: Sikh Prayers.

 

[svea00]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

I´ve seen them too. There are quite helpful, but I guess I´ll stick to my bani pro, as it is more handy with the ipod to recite the banis. I have purchased the banis on paper with translations in a small and handy format.
I´m getting better every day . But don´t speak of my translations!:shutup:

 

[futurekaur]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

AadJi; thanks I can't tell you about Amanjit Kaur's pronunciation as I haven't heard it, yet. I couldn't find a youtube link and hadn't seen the videos everyone's posted. Which are amazing.
HarjasJi; I downloaded firefox etc but then Windows says it can't open the file, ugh, am I doing something wrong?
JasleenJi; thanks for the link as I can view them that way. These video files are just the best. The line by line is absolutely terrific. Nice and slow. I can work on my Gurmurkhi too. The pronunciation is so clear. I recommend these videos to everyone. The English lets you know what you are saying, and frankly you can pick up lots of vocabulary too...

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

HarjasJi; I downloaded firefox etc but then Windows says it can't open the file, ugh, am I doing something wrong?

I don't know, depends on what OS you're running. I've heard Windows Vista is cranky. But you don't need to download Firefox, those links are from Youtube. You should be able to open them with Internet Explorer. Firefox has a neat add-on that lets you save the video from Youtube to your hard drive. That way you can play them anytime.

Let me see if Youtube isn't working you might need these programs. I think I had a problem with Internet Explorer not playing videos before.

http://www.adobe.com/shockwave/download/download.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash
Adobe Shockwave Download Center

I never could get Internet Explorer to work for Youtube. That's why I use Firefox.
Firefox web browser | Faster, more secure, & customizable
Well, you should be able to download. Are you getting a desktop icon and the program doesn't work? Or is your firewall interrupting the download?