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Sikhs For Change: Language - A Barrier For New Sikhs?

Archived_Member5

(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
Mar 13, 2006
388
76
London, UK
Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Religion was the bastion of the intellectual elite, its mysteries and deep spiritual wisdom well protected from modern day opinion espousing novices debating the semantics of a profound wisdom man must aspire towards if called than make demands of. Enlightenment is not solely gained by ardent study or pursuit of its prestigious mantle, but by grace, faith and devotion..

The sacred truths are illumined by the devotee as their intellectual integrity, emotional maturity and moral mettle permit. Novices, scholars and students of the sacred path to this noble shrine must submit their own mind, supplicate the heart and merge the spirit. It is only in this state the gentle peace of sahej is found.

The modern day subtle threat to the standing of religiosity has placed the very existence of God and the Supreme Lord into question, that is the danger of incongruent and the ignorant bringing their own lack of guile and wit to the tolerant threshold of the House of God. Sikhism does not by its intrinsic nature convert others to its path. The major religions are weakened by the submission to each demand voiced through a vociferous media mob to include such political matters in its retinue, only to assert blame upon religions unsolicited intervention in their politics. A truly comical farce of counter-allegations and transference of the sin of the unscrupulous upon the divided and undefended house of religion. A detached observation leads one to be fiercely protective of the sacred sanctum within where many hours of peace of mind were found.

Followers of religions have no right to make loud assertion or demands of religion. Once one demand is satisfied a barrage of whims follows dismantling the very walls of the temple of truth to serve the cause of the seemingly insurmountable mob at its door. A terrible outcome indeed. Let politicians serve the people, and the media seek out ‘public opinion’ through shields of their own vented views. Politics is a terrible affair.

All books of learning, be they Scientific, religious, Philosophical or Political are as valid as the intelligence communicated by their preachers and the understanding of their adherents. Sikhism has printed many scriptures in many languages for the benefit of Sikh children born in foreign lands for whom Punjabi is not immediately their primary language. Once read in Romanic the Sikh is then inspired to learn the relatively language of Punjabi and Sanskrit and gain a firsthand alliteration of the sacred scriptures of the Bani. As it should be, an exercise of Love and devotion than demand and aggression...

{A Sikh becomes transcends merged with the Holy Golden spectral Light of the Supreme Lord. What is then a white sikh?}
 
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Tejwant Singh

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Jun 30, 2004
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Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

As the message of Sikhi is for all humanity then language should not become a stumbling block which it is for many.

The sad reality is the lack of education of the caretakers of the Panth- The Honchos of the Takhats and of SGPC. The english transliteration by many so called Sikh scholars is poor and many times misleading which is not only sad but offensive to the Gurmat ideals. We have no venues to train anyone.

If we can find the Holy Bible,Koran and scriptures of other religions in Punjabi and in many other languages, then why can we not find SGGS in different languages?

The answer my friend is blowing in the wind........


Tejwant Singh
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Jeetijohal Ji..

The Fonts in your mail look very nice....BUT makes reading them difficult...
the "real beauty" of a Mail is in the MESSAGE..dont you think ??

Just a thought....simple clothes brings out the inner beauty..similarly simple easy to read fonts make it easier on some of us who dont have eagle eyes....

Hope you dont mind....

Thanks:wah:
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
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Jul 4, 2004
7,708
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Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

As the message of Sikhi is for all humanity then language should not become a stumbling block which it is for many.

The sad reality is the lack of education of the caretakers of the Panth- The Honchos of the Takhats and of SGPC. The english transliteration by many so called Sikh scholars is poor and many times misleading which is not only sad but offensive to the Gurmat ideals. We have no venues to train anyone.

If we can find the Holy Bible,Koran and scriptures of other religions in Punjabi and in many other languages, then why can we not find SGGS in different languages?

The answer my friend is blowing in the wind........


Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Ji..
A very stimulating thought indeed...

A few unique features of the SGGS...

1. Its in POETRY...and poetry is doubly harder to translate than PROSE.

2. The Divine Message in the SGGS is shrouded in Metaphorical and allegorical vocabulary....again a very challenging task for the would be translator to tackle as he/she would have to be very very fluent and comfortable with the metaphors and allegories in BOTH languages - Original and translated into. That is at the base of the ludicrous and downright funny and laughable misinterpretations we find in modern day Translations available today..simply becasue the translator just went for the "Word to word" surface translation literally...not even bothering to go deeper than skin deep !!

3. The SGGS is about EXPERIENCES....rather than straight forward historical stories as in the Bible/Koran..and as we all know..
experiences" are as difficult to translate as even Guru Ji admits..Jion Gunggeh mathiyee khayee...How can a Dumb/Deaf MUTE Express himself regarding the taste of sweetmeats he has eaten..in this case the "tranlsator" would be DEAF/UMB/MUTE in terms of Vovabulary !! LOST FOR WORDS LITERALLY !!

4. The SGGS further contains over a DOZEN Languages...and that complicates matters even more..as just being an expert in one or two languages wont be enough as is the case with the Bible/Koran.

5. Last but not least the question of Finances...Resources...The Bible/Koran has nearly 2 BILLION followers and MULTIPLE GOVERNMENTS backing them - 40 Mulsim Countries...and the Worlds biggest richest countries backing the Bible....with SIKHS..no such hope...we dont even have a "state" let alone a country..we are minorities everywhere...a RICH man having a piece of GLASS has the resources to "polish" it and have it Marketed as Diamond..easily....a POOR man having an uncut diamond wont be able to have it even polished !! much less market it..thats is the situation we are in.

6. I am eternally grateful that Manmohan Singh completed the task of Translating the SGGS into the 8 Vol set at absolutley NO PERSONAL benenfit to himself or his family (financially) But at great personal COST...the Same effort was performed by Prof Sahib Singh with his Ten Volume SGGS Darpan..... The Mahan Kosh and the Faridkot Teeka was financed by the SikH maharajas of Nabha and Faridkot respectively. So we do have the Basics...now its up to US ALL as the Sikh Nation to do the needful in translating the SGGS Darpan into English (initially) and improving on the Manmohan Singh Teeka vocubalary wise. Then perhaps can progress to other languages...The Greatest Disappointment has been the SGPC which has wasted hundreds of millions of Goluck collections for the past 90 YEARS..all down the drain.....
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
5,024
7,183
Henderson, NV.
Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

A few unique features of the SGGS...

1. Its in POETRY...and poetry is doubly harder to translate than PROSE.

2. The Divine Message in the SGGS is shrouded in Metaphorical and allegorical vocabulary....again a very challenging task for the would be translator to tackle as he/she would have to be very very fluent and comfortable with the metaphors and allegories in BOTH languages - Original and translated into. That is at the base of the ludicrous and downright funny and laughable misinterpretations we find in modern day Translations available today..simply becasue the translator just went for the "Word to word" surface translation literally...not even bothering to go deeper than skin deep !!

3. The SGGS is about EXPERIENCES....rather than straight forward historical stories as in the Bible/Koran..and as we all know..
experiences" are as difficult to translate as even Guru Ji admits..Jion Gunggeh mathiyee khayee...How can a Dumb/Deaf MUTE Express himself regarding the taste of sweetmeats he has eaten..in this case the "tranlsator" would be DEAF/UMB/MUTE in terms of Vovabulary !! LOST FOR WORDS LITERALLY !!

4. The SGGS further contains over a DOZEN Languages...and that complicates matters even more..as just being an expert in one or two languages wont be enough as is the case with the Bible/Koran.

5. Last but not least the question of Finances...Resources...The Bible/Koran has nearly 2 BILLION followers and MULTIPLE GOVERNMENTS backing them - 40 Mulsim Countries...and the Worlds biggest richest countries backing the Bible....with SIKHS..no such hope...we dont even have a "state" let alone a country..we are minorities everywhere...a RICH man having a piece of GLASS has the resources to "polish" it and have it Marketed as Diamond..easily....a POOR man having an uncut diamond wont be able to have it even polished !! much less market it..thats is the situation we are in.

6. I am eternally grateful that Manmohan Singh completed the task of Translating the SGGS into the 8 Vol set at absolutley NO PERSONAL benenfit to himself or his family (financially) But at great personal COST...the Same effort was performed by Prof Sahib Singh with his Ten Volume SGGS Darpan..... The Mahan Kosh and the Faridkot Teeka was financed by the SikH maharajas of Nabha and Faridkot respectively. So we do have the Basics...now its up to US ALL as the Sikh Nation to do the needful in translating the SGGS Darpan into English (initially) and improving on the Manmohan Singh Teeka vocubalary wise. Then perhaps can progress to other languages...The Greatest Disappointment has been the SGPC which has wasted hundreds of millions of Goluck collections for the past 90 YEARS..all down the drain.....

Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.

Very well said.

No one could have said it better.

Lakh, Lakh thanks.

Tejwant Singh
 

tony

SPNer
Feb 20, 2006
150
84
nottingham england
Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

God is only One. His name is True. He is the creator, He is without fear. He is inimical to none. He never dies. he is beyond births and deaths. he is self illuminated. He is realized by the kindness of the true Guru. Repeat his Name. He is true in the beginning. He is true when the ages commenced and is ever true. He is also true now. Nanak says that he will certainly be true in the future. Mortals cannot comprehend God by pondering over Him for thousands of times. Mortals may remain silent and absorbed in the meditation of God and his love, yet peace of mind will not be achieved. Yearning of hungary mortals will never end by keeping fast, or by collecting loads of wordly riches. MORTALS MAY POSSESS THOUSANDS OF CLEVER THOUGHTS OR THE BIGGEST WISDOM, YET NOT EVEN ONE WISE THOUGHT WILL ACCOMPANY HIM TO THE NEXT WORLD. HOW CAN THE MORTAL BECOME TRUE? HOW CAN THE BARRIER OF FALSE HOOD BE SMASHED? NANAK REPLIES THAT THIS CAN BE ACHIEVED BY OBEYING THE PRE-ORDAINED COMMAND AND WILL OF GOD RECORDED FOR MAN.
The above as any Sikh will know is from the Guru Granth Sahib ji it is written in English, Whilst it is proberly not an exact translation it was enough to get the message of God across to me 20 yrs ago and is responsable for the changing of my ways. The part i have written in capitals clearly states that it doesnt matter how clever you are ( not all have the same capasity for learning ), It is by following the pre-ordained will of God as recorded for man that enlightenment will be achieved. As these are words of God as told to Guru Nanak ji would one of the more intellectual amongst us please tell me how am I and many others amongst us are supposed to know what they are if it is only preached in panjabi. The learning of Gods words is first and foremost for myself and panjabi words are secondary. From page 6 of the Guru Granth Santh ji, What language should be uttered by the mouth, so that he may bestow his love on us after hearing it?. and from page 8 There is only one giver for the beings, WHOM I MUST NOT FORGET. and WHAT DO ALL THE GREATED BEINGS, WHOM I BEHOLD. The word of God and the poetry of the Gurus can be heard and understood no matter what the language, to state that it has to be in panjabi and that religion is a bastion for the intellectually elite is shamefull. It has become quite apparent to me that many sikhs believe that God belongs only to them and that by preaching only in their native tongue they can keep it that way. I have great faith in God and the teachings of the Gurus. I shall leave you with one more line from page 15 of the granth, ONE WHO OBEYS GOD, SWIMS ACROSS THE OCEANS OF THE WORLD AND CAUSES TRUE DESCIPLES OF THE GURU TO DO SO, is actually telling you to spread God name to all, not to keep it to yourself and it took no great intellect to work that out. Those who keep Gods name to themselves are the true sinners amongst us.
Tony
 

Archived_Member5

(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
Mar 13, 2006
388
76
London, UK
Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

It has become quite apparent to me that many Sikhs believe that God belongs only to them and that by preaching only in their native tongue they can keep it that way. I have great faith in God and the teachings of the Gurus. I shall leave you with one more line from page 15 of the granth, ONE WHO OBEYS GOD, SWIMS ACROSS THE OCEANS OF THE WORLD AND CAUSES TRUE DESCIPLES OF THE GURU TO DO SO, is actually telling you to spread God name to all, not to keep it to yourself and it took no great intellect to work that out. Those who keep Gods name to themselves are the true sinners amongst

The Sikh race is a moral, congenial dignified people. I find it morally reprehensible and bordering upon the absurd your demands for poetic translation of the SGGS. There are plenty of translations available for lovers of the Bani. Sikhs by their very nature require moral protection in this age of mob rule. Christians slaughtered their Christ in the cause of cleansing their sins. The Sikhs would not expose our Guru’s or the teachings for scrutiny by infidels and the ignorant. God is Universal Spirit, Sikhism is mainly Punjabi. If anyone has a desire to learn of the word there are many millions of books and literature available, and many English speaking Gyani’s ready and willing to assist. I witness on a daily basis the dishonouring and blasphemy against Mohammed and Jesus in the media, a media literally encouraging atheism whilst indulging the demands of the sinful and perverse, and citing insurrection and treason laws to protect their motley mongrels in power. Your remarks are ill considered and entirely false in their premise.
 

tony

SPNer
Feb 20, 2006
150
84
nottingham england
Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

piont of interest it was the Jews who killed christ and your views on religion are more in tune with that of a muslim extremist than that of an all embracing Sikh
Tony
 

Archived_Member5

(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
Mar 13, 2006
388
76
London, UK
Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

They play the part of accomplice by citing his barbaric death as a sacrifice for the sins of the people than a brutal murder at the hands of the mob observed by the Monarch, Priests and State thus protecting the real culprits of the crime. He refused to join ranks with the establishment who then conspired and engineered his murder and death. Life goes on, circumstances rarely change. The establishment killed God and The Christ and continue to do so today. They are rich and powerful and have a voice, nuclear weaponry, mass armies and witchcraft power. Look around you. We are in the era of Kalyug, Armageddon …

I have no wish to debate or argue with you, please have a pleasant day and may Peace Prosperity and Love be with Sikhs, Sikhsim and the Punjab ... WaheGuru.
 

tony

SPNer
Feb 20, 2006
150
84
nottingham england
Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

At last jeeti ji we have something in common as i have no wish to argue with you either. May the love of God be with yourself, All Sikhs, Sikhism and the Punjab. Best wishes to yourself
Tony
 

Archived_Member5

(previously jeetijohal, account deactivated at her
Mar 13, 2006
388
76
London, UK
Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Dear Tony Ji,

Thankyou for a much needed blessing, peace be with you and your family ... WaheGuru Ji. JJ.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Let this be the end of digressions. Sikh means learner. The starting place is admission that we all have areas of ignorance with much to learn. The knowledge of the Guru belongs to anyone who will iisten. Guruji has told us that if even an idiot repeats Gurbani that person can be saved.

The thread is how to master the language of the Guru -- language in the big sense of the word. What is the message for humanity. Guru Nanak saved the world -- all of it who would dare to hear and be transformed.

The thread is also about how to master the languages of Gurbani -- all of them in Gurmukhi script. Anytime anyone decides to take on a new learning objective like learning a new language, he/she is also going to learn about a culture and a time in history. We came to SPN to open doors, we are not here to close them.
 

Tomash

SPNer
Mar 5, 2008
5
1
Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Hello, sat sri akal. I was happy to finish a punjabi textbook - Teach yourself punjabi by sahib Purewal. Now id like to continue my hobby, so i am ready to talk in my next year journey to Punjab and maybe read Guru Granth Sahib. But on Amazon, i didnt find any thorough textbook, with extensive gramma practice and some words about Gurbani. Could some of you help me and give me some recomendation?
Koi tip lai danvad, tomas
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Tomash ji

This is going to be a hard one to answer. The all round most recommended text is by Charles Shackle and is entitled, The Sacred Language of the Sikhs. The book is very expensive. I paid aboaut 60 dollars for a second-hand copy which I had to track down and found in Berlin Germany. Copies on Amazon can be close to 100 dollars or more.
 

unbiasedview

SPNer
Aug 7, 2008
30
22
Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

well i would like to add another dimension to ur observation or u can say to ur grievance!
i can speak and understand punjabi but still i cant understand gurbani because although script of gurbani is gurmukhi there is very little of punjabi language in it.different gurus and bhagats have used different languages at different points in gurugranth sahib.and it is very difficult to understand them.so translating guru granth sahib into english or using english as medium of teaching gurbani is very wise idea
and it should be encouraged !
but in the meantime a sikh shld try to learn punjabi language because sometimes it is not possible to find exact synonyms ,they might fail to convey the gravity of situation or the point
 
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spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

unbiasedview ji

Valuable comments you have added to the conversation. One thing about reading Gurbani however is this. Once you have some working vocabulary and knowledge of the Gurmukhi script, the next step, and the only next step, toward conquering all the very real difficulties you mentioned is this. A constant and stubborn practice of taking shabads one at a time, and reading, pulling out vocabulary words and memorzing them, and thinking, and trying to understand, and going online in a forum like this to get learned input from knowledgeable forum members, experimenting with online dictionaries to get at the vocabularies of other languages. There are two parts: learning the language of the Guru; and learning the meaning of the Guru. It is learning by doing and doing and doing. It comes hard, but each month means progress, however slow. There are Gurmat courses in English in some gurdwaras -- but they really do not achieve what you really want to achieve. Sometimes they are nothing more than feel good sessions, and the people who can read the Gurmukhi end up the only ones who can read Gurmukhi.

As for learning Punjabi -- that is sometimes not an answer. From my experience only: Modern Punjabi is just different enough from the language of Sri Guru Granth Sahib to be unhelpful in many instances. Having a Sanskirt glossary on hand is often more helpful because the Guru's Punjabi is just a couple of generations away from old Punjabi which is itself closer to classical Sanskrit than to modern Punjabi. When Punjabi speakers write modern Punjabi in transliteration, they don't even use a standard system of spelling. This means major chaos. I really do not understand modern Punjabi. But another thing I have noticed is that when a katha makes use of the vocabulary and shabads of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, then it is easy to understand. When the katha takes off into personal and subjective directions, it is hard to understand. Guess which kathas i like best.

P/S We had an assistant granthi whose kathas in Punjabi were really good by my definition of "good." I could follow the flow of his thinking because he related EVERYTHING to the Shabad Guru. Then he disappeared. No one I knew at the gurdwara knew why he left. The man who replaced him comes from Delhi and wore a black turban and black vest (I have seen this kind of uniform on the Internet but don't know if it means he belongs to a particular group or not). He seemed to be driven around in a black SUV by other men in black turbans and vests and the SUV had a chanda on the back window. His kathas are - as far as i can make out - when I listen - all about how we are always making mistakes and walking down the wrong path. Very negative, and hard to follow. His kathas are terrible. Original thinking is never as good as the Shabad itself. Apologies for this little rant and digression on my part.
 

Ecumenigal

SPNer
Sep 13, 2010
12
14
Orem, Utah U.S.A.
This discussion reminds me of the Catholic church's transition to using the local languages instead of Latin. It helped with membership numbers, but there are those that preferred the spiritual quality of the Latin and grieve its loss.

I am a very serious Sikh investigator and for me the prospect of learning a new language is the most daunting thing. It's not that it's not a worthy endeavor, but that I have limits and challenges in my life that would make this task very difficult.
 

be_still

SPNer
Nov 8, 2010
4
4
Fort Lauderdale, FL USA
I totally loved this post! I agree, finding more about the Sikh faith without the internet has been a trivial experience. I went to the Gurudwara, and saw a man walking, I asked what I do, and who I can speak with... and he looked at me, pointed and said "sit on left".. that was it. So, I sat on the left, for several hours, while everyone started coming in. I did not know what the people were singing. When they were reading the Guru Granth Sahib it was in English on the screen, but because my eyes were bad, I couldn't see it very well since I was in the back.

I think the biggest problem with new Sikhs is that we don't know who or what to ask. I mean, I don't want to disrespect a culture, because to be fair, it is from India. But, the religion is so beautiful, and so universal, it should be open to all.

I think the best course of action would be an "Introduction the the Sikh Faith" that could be available at the Gurdwaras during the week. A chance for new converts to ask questions, get in the swing of daily practice, etc..

I would love to talk with a Sikh and be able to study the faith with them so that I can get to know more.

On a side note, if there are any Sikh's around Fort Lauderdale, FL, I would love to see if they can teach me!
 

findingmyway

Writer
SPNer
Aug 17, 2010
1,665
3,778
World citizen!
I totally loved this post! I agree, finding more about the Sikh faith without the internet has been a trivial experience. I went to the Gurudwara, and saw a man walking, I asked what I do, and who I can speak with... and he looked at me, pointed and said "sit on left".. that was it. So, I sat on the left, for several hours, while everyone started coming in. I did not know what the people were singing. When they were reading the Guru Granth Sahib it was in English on the screen, but because my eyes were bad, I couldn't see it very well since I was in the back.

I think the biggest problem with new Sikhs is that we don't know who or what to ask. I mean, I don't want to disrespect a culture, because to be fair, it is from India. But, the religion is so beautiful, and so universal, it should be open to all.

I think the best course of action would be an "Introduction the the Sikh Faith" that could be available at the Gurdwaras during the week. A chance for new converts to ask questions, get in the swing of daily practice, etc..

I would love to talk with a Sikh and be able to study the faith with them so that I can get to know more.

On a side note, if there are any Sikh's around Fort Lauderdale, FL, I would love to see if they can teach me!

I'm really sorry you had the experience you did. Where I am we have frequent interfaith days and education days for students/teacher trainees/police etc. I have taken many non-Sikh friends to Gurdwara as have others and its always been very welcoming. Unfortunately I am a little too far from you!! However, you can try phoning and seeing if the Gurdwara has someone who will guide you? Or next time you go, don't be afraid of approaching someone and asking questions-most people don't mind if its clear you are genuinely interested. There's a whole section in the new to Sikhism section about going to Gurdwara which Narayanjot Ji and Spnadmin ji kindly put together.

Finally here's how to say hello to make instant friends!
Sat sri akal, or if you're feeling brave
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
 
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