Sikhs For Change: Language - A Barrier For New Sikhs?

[futurekaur]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

I'm using XP I'm waiting to divide my hardrive so I can run Linux Ubuntu. I need Dragon program otherwise I'd ditch Windows entirely.

I was missing the adobe plug in, as today I used Firefox, downloaded and watched the videos on RealPlayer. So that's perfect. Thanks!

 

[Visitor]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Hi Lionchild! I also am a convert to Sikhism and relate very much to what you are saying. I am quite reluctant to go to the Gurdwara as I feel very isolated there. Almost like I am being looked at strangely. Realistically, I am aware that these are my own inferiorities that I need to work on. You seem to be one step ahead of me as you have the courage to talk to others. I avoid the Langar hall altogether when I do have to courage to go and honestly, I always take someone with me. I also wanted to ask about how to break this barrier...

I really wanted to reply to your sentence about one telling you (Quote): granth sahib should only be read and spoken in the "language of the guru's" aka punjabi. Firstly, if I am not mistaken, the Guru Granth Sahib was not written in Punjabi to begin with. It was later translated. Secondly, was it not Guru Arjan who wanted to tnaslate it into Indian and other languages so that its words could spread over the world like oil over water?

Sikhism was never about exclusivity but embracing all philosophies. That is why you can find writings in the scared books by Hindus, Muslims and sikhs.

I wonder if sometimes (in London at least) if culture is becoming confused for religion?

If you are interested in learning about the history of the Sikhism, how it became, the Gurus etc I would suggest reading 'The Sikh Religion' by Max Arthur Macauliffe (ISBN: 81-7536-132-8).

 

[futurekaur]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Hi Visitor;
I think Lionchild is now a Baha'i, not sure. I'm keen on Sikhi and learning Gurmukhi. Visiting my local Gurdwara worried me too, but when I looked at the pics they posted on their website, I realized that they are much more outgoing then I imagined.
We really can make our own barriers. Why not befriend a college student or a young person who is educated in sikhi or start a 'global' sikh program to find others.

 

[dushanka]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Because english isn't either my mother tongue , to avoid those problems above i would like to learn punjabi .No matter how much time it will take ...
I plan to move from Germany to Canada . Can anybody tell me the best place in Toronto to take courses to learn punjabi? Thank you very much
Best regards ,
Dushanka

 

[Archived_Member5]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

It bewilders me to read the above postings. The Hindi language is under attack from within by Tamil and Marathi and externally by English which has become the nation’s second language. Whilst I agree the globalisation process requires a common language and English appears to have won this mantle by default by virtue of being the language of the present day richer nations, I have always preferred Latin or Sanskrit.

It is your decision to convert to Sikhism, the every least, first and foremost step should be to learn the native and indigenous languages of Sikhism’s homeland. Punjabi is an easy language to learn, enquire at your local Sikh net stations. The anti cultural drive against the ancient civilisations is destroying all things sacred and replacing them with the most inane and banal. Learn Punjabi, learning any language adds to your itinerary of qualifications. It is a small token gesture of your pledge of devotion to your chosen religion.

Sikhism is a breed of warriors, they would not be seen as mice when confronted by a small command to learn its native tongue and the language of its written scriptures, many have done so and are richer for the acquired skills and linguistical art.

 

[dushanka]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

SAT SRI AKAL Jeetijohal !!!
I actually did not meant anything else than you have mentioned !!!!
I am very willing to learn Punjabi since it is also the language of all my ancenstors .
I don't expect any problems to learn it because till today i have learnt many other foreign languages , so why not Punjabi? I have just asked for help if anybody can tell me the best place in Toronto where i can take courses in punjabi because i plan to change my place of living from Germany to Canada .

 

[Archived_Member5]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

No matter Dushanka, history has dictated that each faith, religion, belief excelling in producing determined and noble creations is pursued by those seeking affiliation with anything popular only to decimate and destroy upon entering such sanctums, veritable Trojan horses as it were. All religions are sound, it is rather the wilful demands of the weakest links that have debilitated great nations and causes.

Sikhism welcomes all truth seekers in this age of Holy War and spiritual ignorance. We are blessed with so much information and freedom of travel and thought to choose the belief system most appealing to our own mindset. Language barriers should not pose problems as learning new languages is quite easy. One cannot expect church or temple communities to take time out at a time their own family pressures and responsibilities are prioritised for attention, and rightly so.

Take one step towards God and you find a thousand lights on a thousand paths all leading to the One great temple of Truth that is Gods light. Stand and wail of barriers and hindrances and one is left behind. Assimilation is the key. My best wishes to all you newly converted to Sikhism let the spirit of truth and love guide you, and find not fault in trifling matter at a time the world is beset by the forces of wickedness seeking to lead mankind astray.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

No matter Dushanka, history has dictated that each faith, religion, belief excelling in producing determined and noble creations is pursued by those seeking affiliation with anything popular only to decimate and destroy upon entering such sanctums, veritable Trojan horses as it were. All religions are sound, it is rather the wilful demands of the weakest links that have debilitated great nations and causes.

Sikhism welcomes all truth seekers in this age of Holy War and spiritual ignorance. We are blessed with so much information and freedom of travel and thought to choose the belief system most appealing to our own mindset. Language barriers should not pose problems as learning new languages is quite easy. One cannot expect church or temple communities to take time out at a time their own family pressures and responsibilities are prioritised for attention, and rightly so.

Take one step towards God and you find a thousand lights on a thousand paths all leading to the One great temple of Truth that is Gods light. Stand and wail of barriers and hindrances and one is left behind. Assimilation is the key. My best wishes to all you newly converted to Sikhism let the spirit of truth and love guide you, and find not fault in trifling matter at a time the world is beset by the forces of wickedness seeking to lead mankind astray.

Jeetijohal ji

I so agree with this. It is partly the case that gurdwaras do not take the time to make Sikhi, Sikhism and Gurbani as accessible as it could be to converts and to born-Sikhs who do not know Gurmukhi. More could be done with educational programs. And often the gurdwaras seem to be closed societies. But you are right to say that the gurdwaras are run by people who have jobs and families and are short on sevadhars. In the end, the responsibility lies with each person to learn the language by whatever strategy is best for them.

dushanka ji -- Continue with your plan to take lessons and persist. And also, go to neighborhoods where there are Punjabi people and hang out and learn by doing.

 

[Archived_Member5]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Religion is our mother, we are reared and raised by its guiding hand and counsel, we gain all understanding of the world at its feet. Upon maturity and spiritual awakening, we become its guardians and protectors, upholders of its honour. Religion is the world, as children with faith we rely upon its each word and utterance in the little world created in our homes, as we grow, the world too grows until we become universal, whereupon setting aside our affiliations we are able to observe the common thread of love coursing through the souls and mind s of humanity. And we with our religion are free, it is honoured where we roam, and our honour is associated with the honour of our faith system, our mother.

 

[pk70]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

My humble insertions
Religion is our mother, we are reared and raised by its guiding hand and counsel, we gain all understanding of the world at its feet.
Religion is our guardian, it raises us like a good mother through counseling, and it purifies us further to enshrine the real mother the Lord in the heart.

Upon maturity and spiritual awakening, we become its guardians and protectors, upholders of its honour.
The religion has its own power to exist; we just blend in its existence that alone keeps the light shining.
Religion is the world, as children with faith we rely upon its each word and utterance in the little world created in our homes, as we grow, the world too grows until we become universal, whereupon setting aside our affiliations we are able to observe the common thread of love coursing through the souls and mind s of humanity.
Religion is a medicine- magnet that attracts the soul to save from the Maya bacteria. Disease free souls nourish more and with exemplary living infuse the same light in others

And we with our religion are free, it is honoured where we roam, and our honour is associated with the honour of our faith system, our mother.
There is no honor that can measure the religion, who truly live religion receives ultimate honor at the hands of the CREATOR
True seeker of the religion is pushed in to it by a power the Lord implanted within, when difficulty or opposition is faced, that power helps to be a winner. Who are determined by that power will find the way in the Gurdawaras where they face a peculiar treatment.

 

[singhisking101]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Here are some videos that can get you started:

YouTube - Manpreet Singh: Please carry me across the world-ocean
YouTube - Bhai Harjinder Singh: How Can The Fish Live Without Water?
YouTube - Bhai Harjinder Singh - Rain Gaee Math Din Bhee Jae
YouTube - Tejinderpal Singh Dulla: O my Soul, sing Praises of the Lord
YouTube - Such is the diamond; the Lord's Immaculate Name
YouTube - Some call the Lord ' Ram, Ram ', and some ' Khuda '
YouTube - Bhai Nirmal Singh - hai Gobind hai Gopaal

If you look around i am sure you can find more of these videos

Also Bhai Dya Singh Ji's kirtan usually has some English translations in it.

 

[singhisking101]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

some products that could be useful
CD ROMS:
Amazon.com: Instant Immersion Learn 33 Languages Tutor DVD-ROM - Arabic, Bengali, Brazilian (Portuguese), Chinese (Cantonese), Dutch, English, Farsi (Persian), Finish, French, German, Greek, Hebrew, Hindi, Hungarian, Irish, Italian, Japanese, Korean,
Amazon.com: Topics Entertainment Talk Now! Beginners Punjabi: Software

books:
Amazon.com: Learn Punjabi in 30 Days: N.S.R. Ganathe: Books
Amazon.com: Learn Punjabi In 30 Days: M.A. N.S.R. Ganathe: Books

 

[tony]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

It bewilders me to read the above postings. The Hindi language is under attack from within by Tamil and Marathi and externally by English which has become the nation’s second language. Whilst I agree the globalisation process requires a common language and English appears to have won this mantle by default by virtue of being the language of the present day richer nations, I have always preferred Latin or Sanskrit.

It is your decision to convert to Sikhism, the every least, first and foremost step should be to learn the native and indigenous languages of Sikhism’s homeland. Punjabi is an easy language to learn, enquire at your local Sikh net stations. The anti cultural drive against the ancient civilisations is destroying all things sacred and replacing them with the most inane and banal. Learn Punjabi, learning any language adds to your itinerary of qualifications. It is a small token gesture of your pledge of devotion to your chosen religion.

Sikhism is a breed of warriors, they would not be seen as mice when confronted by a small command to learn its native tongue and the language of its written scriptures, many have done so and are richer for the acquired skills and linguistical art.

Jeetijohal ji
surely if sikhism is to become a religion for all then would it not be better to preach it in a language that the majority could understand. the idea is to teach the word of God not the language that can come later. if panjabi is so easy to learn then why is it that so many born Sikhs do not know it (in England ). I spoke only the other day to a 40yr old sikh who said that at the Gudwara he finds it hard to under stand what is being said as it is spoken so fast, he has had 40 yrs of living in a panjabi speaking family and struggles so what chance would a new comer have. Please try to be more tolerant to none panjabi speaking Sikhs,Not all have the same leaning capabilities. Guru Nanak ji spoke in the language of the people of the land he was in and understood that if he was to get the message to them he would need to speak in a tonge they understood. Was is not also the Guru jis wish to bring down cultural barriers thus making them the first to start this so called anti cultural drive. In the same sense as i and many others chose to be a Sikh, You choose to life outside the Panjab, So by your own words you should thus try to accept the culture of the country you life in, England has a culture of the majority rule and the majority speak english. A person should only preach what they are willing to practise. A true Sikh is tolerant of all around him and only to willing to help all. Sikhism has no room for cultural values.
Tony

 

[Archived_Member5]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

surely if sikhism is to become a religion for all then would it not be better to preach it in a language that the majority could understand. the idea is to teach the word of God not the language that can come later. if panjabi is so easy to learn then why is it that so many born Sikhs do not know it (in England ).

Whilst mass migration { caused by engineered systematic destruction by the US} and the concept of globalisation obviate a pressing need for a common culture, I feel no need for the warrior race of Sikhs to sacrifice their own noble culture to merge with what is a lost civilisation in moral ruin. As a Sikh born and raised in London I live equally happily with the native Englanders and all nationals from any part of the world as my own. England is lost at this time, the old traditions were sold for a debauched media anti culture, how can the natives then demand or expect compliance to a force they themselves are victims of. Traditional values here in the UK have been destroyed in the haphazard cause of multi culturalism that favours neither the foreigners of the indigenous population. It is therefore a non cause.

Was is not also the Guru jis wish to bring down cultural barriers thus making them the first to start this so called anti cultural drive. In the same sense as i and many others chose to be a Sikh

It is human to be as one with those about us. When all are divided and driven by contrary will, a situational fallacy encouraged by the ruling demagoguery, how is unity orchestrated. One cannot inflict publicly, atrocities upon Islam, Israel or economic devastation upon foreign nations and not expect their own citizens to pick up upon the subtle employs of hypocrisy. The value of human life is placed upon how willing the establishment is to sacrifice the same at the later of power in the questionable cause of anti-terrorism.

You choose to life outside the Panjab, So by your own words you should thus try to accept the culture of the country you life in, England has a culture of the majority rule and the majority speak english. A person should only preach what they are willing to practise. A true Sikh is tolerant of all around him and only to willing to help all. Sikhism has no room for cultural values.
Tony

On the contrary I have flown from this accursed godforsaken land twice to foreign shores but was returned here. Others have failed to extricate me because of my British citizenship. A hapless nonexistent captive forced by witchery to speak of politics to give reason for the cunning powers to defend their siege and capture of me. The UK has no culture, it was culturally rich in the days of my youth, but is now focused neither on church or society but solely led by an evil media.

Sikhism is built upon strong family values of honour, morality and an abiding by the will of community and family elders and statesmen. This would be in direct conflict with what is preached by social workers and do-gooder attempts to salve what is a fractured and dysfunctional society. I loathe discussing, being exploited or used by weak politico’s to focus upon issues they do not possess the moral backbone to tackle.

{**
The Punjab was prospering, with investors receiving a 12% return on their savings, this was cut back to a nominal figure by the main banks here in the UK to divert funding and investment away from the relatively poor and oppressed Punjab to these insatiably pits of the UK. My lot differs not too greatly from the lot of Punjab, words echoing Rani Jinda, come and gone before me. I detest discussing politics although I am a formidable political player purely and primarily because the pigs in power use it as leverage to warrant retaining me here. You and I are both Englanders and Sikhs by choice. We are in the Spirit of both our Motherland and Host Nation. The mutual accusatory finger pointing runs in both directions.**}

 

[tony]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Dear jeetijohal ji
The fact still remains that the Guru ji's message was From God and that Guru Nanak ji learnt several languages in order to spread that word. God made all mankind Yet they don't all speak the same language, so to say that everyone must learn Panjabi to hear Gods message would isolate many from hearing the Guru ji's message thus creating a divide and as it is the Guru jis message that all are equal regardless of race, colour, sex, language and even religion, then surely it is only right that Sikhism be preached in as many languages as possible. As for your own plight I shouldnot comment, but i choose to be in England and if you are detained here then it is of your own doing. i do not discuss nor bring into my discussion any political points of view, they are for politicians which i have no interest in and have no place on a religious forum. however I have noticed you do seem to dwell on the warrior and cultural side of Sikhism and not on the true intent of the Guru ji's to spread the word of God. Also the concept of mans mass migration being due to the Americans is ridiculous, mans mass migration started 200000 yrs ago when we walked out of Africa.
Tony

 

[Archived_Member5]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Learning Punjabi to appropriately read or learn of the Punjabi scriptures and writings is considered a small step towards learning about Sikhism should one need to do so. Many noble Sikhs have translated the SGGS into English and Romanic for the purposes of such truth seekers and scholars. The Sikhs are a warrior race and are proud for being so, each individual is the upholder of the honour and good name of his faith and retains metaphorically the sword of righteousness at his side to fight oppression, injustice and tyranny.

I feel you are undergoing some sort of transitional uncertainty regarding your faith and belief. I wish you well in your journey. The current mass migration of Islamic, Russians, Europeans and Asians is actively engineered to bring in cheap labour from labour rich nations into this under populated contender with the same. It is a fact regardless of whether you wish to deem it so. Downsizing the economies of other nations to encourage emigration to these shores only for these hapless victims to be verbally assaulted and set upon by the very same said governments profiting from the hard work, labour and toil by native indigenous louts as paki’s etc is the name of the game, dear innocent or naive tony ji. Politics is a terrible business. Evolution matters are best reserved for forums designated for them.

The religious were in times of yore the superior thinking spiritual being. The state indoctrinated or educated minions churned out from the corridors of academia seek to devalue by derision these people and do so many methods. Learning Punjabi is very easy as is English for the native Punjabi. Whether Religion, Philosophy, Science or the Literati, these institutions require protection from undue criticism and aggression from sceptics who assault what they cannot understand. English seems to have taken the place of the global language unfortunately. It’s hardly what we could refer to as a problem is it now...? :nothingtoadd: :support:

 

[tony]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

I happen to be a state educated minion as you put it but have no desire to derise anyone let alone religious leaders. Whilst i have only recently called my self a Sikh i believe i have been a Sikh in my values for a long time and have no transitional uncertianty in my faith or believe, whilst I am now learning panjabi it was a very kind Sikh who first translated Ik oan kaar for me and then many more prayers that brought me a desire to learn more of the Guru ji's teaching. It was this kindness and willingness to translate that brought another person to Sikhism. You also bring up the subject of racism. my 2 children have suffered this but not at the hands of native indigenous louts but by young Sikhs at panjabi school. My children did not retaliate but forgave them as they are brought up to be true Sikhs leading by example, treating others as they would like to be treated not as they are treated, As for bringing cheap labour here guilty as charged but then how many call centers are now based in india boasting the Indian economy. So the finger again pionts both ways. this thread though is not about economy or racism, Its about making Sikhism available to the mass's and showing them there is a better way of life than for earthly greed and if that means the Gudwaras preaching in the language of the country there in then thats what we should all be working towards not holding on to pride in the past. Pride is a sin, living in the past has no future, what does it matter what language the words in come as long as message is understood.
please if you have suffered racism or feel you are being unfairly treated then seek advise from a solicitor, England has an Equal oppertunities policy which if not followed then is punishable by law. At least were're trying even if some may be failing which is more than can be said about some other countries
Tony

 

[Archived_Member5]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

:star: Dear God Almighty !!!I do not know or care for you or your family and have no need for compassion from you or any other, desist from this political game playing. To answer your point, against my better judgment, each pandit and holy man who ever read my palm or my fate remarked upon how glowing my good fortune is. know my fate writer well and observe him ruining many lives, societies and nations. The SGGS is available widely in many languages, end of matter. The small courtesy on your part to learn Punjabi you find so abusive or threatening is symptomatic moreover of your devotion to your faith than any shortcoming of the part of Sikhism. Cease from baiting me. I am and have always been known as an extremely happy disposition person, my only problem is the pig that holds me captive here, for which I can provide no proof. If you find that abusive that is your prerogative. The matter is hereafter closed from my end.

 

[tony]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

If I where any less a man I would take your postings as offensive however I rise above and only offer you good will. You have anger in your heart and i feel compansion for you. I will offer you something I once read, cant remember exactly where or which Guru but it goes a little like this, two men where walking along one of good nature and actions, the other not so good, the man of less than favourable actions found a gold coin, while the other pricked his hand with a thorn. When the man asked of the Guru why is it that i lead a good life yet i get a thorn in my hand and the other gets rewarded with a gold coin, the Guru replied that it was in the mans destiny to find the treasure and that because of his wrong doing his treasure had been reduced to just one coin, as for you, your destiny was to be impaled on a stake but because of your good actions this had been reduced to just a thorn. If you are detained here against your will then it is because of your earlier actions and the consequences of which is to see the fowl deeds of others, but instead of misering over them let it go and enjoy what life has to offer however small, I have only asked that the Gurus teaching be told in all languages and not insulted any singular person please have the same repect for me and do not insult me or my family.
Tony

 

[spnadmin]

Re: SFC: Language - A barrier for New Sikhs?

Forum members, all respected:

The thread title asks if the Punjabi language is a barrier for new Sikhs.

The logically possible answers are Yes, No, Maybe, Sometimes, I am not certain, or similar terms. The only group of members who can truthfully answer the question posed by the thread would be new Sikhs who are not Punjabi speakers. Anyone else would be guessing. Of course there are Punjabi speakers who might be Hindu, Christian, Mulsim, etc. who on conversion wouldn't have the problem implied by the thread title, since they were Punjabi speakers at the time of conversion.

Once an answer is selected (Yes, No, etc.) then the next step in conversation would be to explain why lack of fluency in Punjabi is a problem and/or what steps have been taken to correct the problem and/or experiences that illustrate the problem -- if it is a problem.

Those who are fluent in Punjabi can contribute to the discussion in equally valuable ways by providing suggestions and recommending learning materials, lessons, schools, online learning sites. They can also provide moral support, or relate stories and experiences positive and negative of their non-Punjabi friends and associates. Perhaps they even have experience as teachers of the Punjabi language.

The thread is situated in the part of the forum called New To Sikhism. I fail to see how criticism of new Sikhs would contribute to a positive forum experience. The point of the New to Sikhism forum is to support converts. So let's try to HELP by being mentors.

Let's also stay on the topic of the thread or posts will be moved. Consider my remarks an invitation to turn over a new page in interpersonal communication and Internet civility. Thanks and fateh!