The Five K's, Why

[tony]

Thank you Antonia ji sorry for the mistake.
I will clarify the vitamin D2 subject. the skin produces D2 in contact with sun light (Uvb). if the skin is completly covered by hair/ fur then the sunlight (uvb) is transmitted to the skin by the hair/ fur. Hair/ fur transmitts light like optical fibres. They are only of any use if the skin is completly covered. obsolete in humans as it only takes a small area of skin to be in contact with sunlight to produce enough d2 for the absorbtion of calcium. Hair in a healthy human doesnt stop growing its length is determined by the rate at which it falls out or how long a folicle keeps it.
Dear Bhagat ji i have reread your posts and see now you have put both sides of the agruement over and very well. I accept that the reason was to show none conversion to the muslim faith and see this as the most possible reason. As for the Kacheera, no I havent tried them but they look like tracky bottoms and do look comfortable. The reason I started this though was to find out from others how they help one to become better, what they are actually for, the reason why guru ji said there was a need for them. The best Ive heard is Guru ji said, so thats enough, but no one knows why Guru ji said, What was his reason, All here are happy to discus and disect the SGGS ji, questioning the meanings, Interpritating each and every line, some to help, some to twist, but none ever question nor seem to know why Guru Gobing Singh ji said why they where needed or where I can find this Hukam, Most are happy to just accept without asking, If some could say why or even give examples of how they help, other than they act as a quick reminder of how to act then that would be of more help.
thanks to all for your answers so far, all that have been on the subject have been helpful please continue
Tony

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Tony Ji,

Sikh Symbols and there value IMHO;

Spiritually speaking all Sikh symbols (turban/patka) are more of a deterrent to misconduct or bad deeds (ਦੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ) rather than progress in spirituality. Since a Sikh is recognized as a distinct individual by symbols, which helps in his identification, thus deterring the individual Sikh to stay away from the sleazy joints and acts? Indirectly this way symbols help one becoming a better human, if intentions are good.

Sabd Guru translates symbols of any religion in to virtues and good deeds (ਸੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ).

Other explanations;

Hairs- for identity.

Comb- Hygienic value for hairs.

Kachha- Horse riding or deterring sexual activity.

Kirpan- Defensive weapon.

Karha- To remind when doing an immoral act with right hand or when thick to protect the wrist during a fight.

Cordially,

Virinder

 

[pk70]

None of the 5 Kakaar is out dated as some claim due to having inability to understand their importance.
Remember, Khalsa was created when the society was ruled with tyranny, it was literally a lawless society. Kirpan has been a symbol of power even today its considered a symbol of power. Guru ji didn't add " spear" in five Kakars though that was more effective from distance. So obviously "kirpan(Sword) represents sybol, of power, it should be kept. Guru Sahib' Hukamname indicate " Guru ji was more interested in arming Sikhs" Today, Sikhs must have arms that are suitable to today's time. No one can be safe any where, genocide can happen anywhere, if concept of being armed is taken in right meaning, it is very useful. Mocking at "kirpan" is nothing but childish mockery. Its should be taken as a symbol and inspiration for self defence and protection of the weak as Guru ji offered. Today if some one has a problem in wearing them, its fine. Questioning others who wear unnecessarily is not right thing to do. Dr Bhai Sahib Bhai Harbans Lal Ji is a Sehajdhari Gursikh who has contributed a lot in context of Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji, he never attacked 5 Kakars. This example shows how to be Sikh without beating drums of one's one MONMATT.
You have choice, whatever you have made, it is fine but please respect what others like.
Thanks.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

PK 70 Ji,
You are absolutely right. DR Harbans lal ji has never kept the 5 K's and never criticised them or tried to show through Gurbani quotes from SGGs as ....irrelevant....or just ordained by Guru Gobind Singh ji simply for his time/and thus not relevant TODAY.
Theres is total freedom of speech/thought in Sikhi...no one is forced to be anythning he/she doesnt want to be - he can be keshless or he can keep kesh - personal choice sanctioned by Sikh society and the SGGS. I see no reason to go to extra ordinary lengths to "search" Gurbani to find tuks that seemingly sanction the "useless/needless/not necessary/out of date etc etc " of the 5 Kakaars....in other words misuse Gurbani to support their own personal decison NOT to use/wear the 5 Kakars as "SANCTIONED BY SGGS"...and thus seek to persuade others to follow their chosen path. Variosu self guessed population statistics, populatioon figures etc are also freqeuntly cited to support the notion that "practically EVERYBODY has abandoned the 5 kakars"...only a tiny fringe minority are making an issue/raisng a fuss about all these 5 kakaars..dastaars etc etc.
Its rather surprising that this "tiny fringe minority" are daily WINNING BATTLES all round the world to the RIGHT to Dastaar..Kirpan..and the 80-90% MAJORITY who dont have dastaars/kirpans are still quite hot under their collars..over this...why ??
It would be better for all of us to write articles and discuss how to control lust..krodh..hankaar..lobh..maya....perform Honest labour..Waand chhakna.. Nam simran etc etc by quoting GURBANI from SGGS.... Lets make an effort to be good sikhs..then good khalsa..or the other way around..personal choice...BOTH are good. The SGGS CANNOT be separated from GURU GOBIND SINGH JI and his Commands because whatever Guru Gobind Singh ji ordained for the Khalsa in 1699 is BASED ON SGGS as it was HE that Commanded that SGGS is our GURU. How can He then ordain his Khalsa to follow something that is agaisnt/not in the SGGS.:happy:

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear All,

Here again the thread is being twisted by members and spinned out of proportion. Tony Ji asked a question and I tried to answer it with the best of my ability. If the members differ so be it. I have written and posted the articles on 5 lower instincts and 5 virtues. There was hardly any debate over them.
I have lived and known Bhai Harbans Lal for 30 years. It is not prudent to bring his name here. One of the examples I gave some where in my threads came from him about 5 K's but I did not name him nor I will bring the subject again.
The answers I gave about 5 K's are written on a board out side a Gurudwara in New Delhi, where Guru Tegh Bahadur's body was cremated.

Respectfully Submitted,

Virinder

 

[dalbirk]

Tony Ji ,
IMHO 5Ks r necessary to underline the following characteristics :
1. HAIR - Hair represent Sikhs' unique identity . Sikhs r made to be distinct ( unique ) from Hindus , so that Sikhism may flourish & prosper avoiding ill-effects of Brahminism ( Hinduism ) , not merged back into Hinduism as all of the previous faiths like Buddhism , Jainism , Bhakti Movement , Yogism were done in by the alkaline sea of Brahminism & no trace of them is left in the world today . Another reason is that Hair is treated as a gift of God & we live by the Hukm ( ordinance ) of God . Hair have living current in them known as Prakash (light ) , which is why a face with a flowing beard is more radiant than a clean-shaven one . A lady with a clean shaven head is often thought to less graceful & less beautiful than a lady with long hair . Hair change colour with age , stops growing after attaining a certain length , which shows it is an inseparable part of human identity but keeps on growing if we continue to cut it . On other hand human nails have two parts , dead & alive .The part of nails we cut is the DEAD PART . Nails don't stop growing even after we don't cut them . Dastaar though not apart of 5Ks comes along . Dastaar was made mandatory when Mughals prohibted any natives ( Mainly Hindus ) from wearing turbans as it was the sign of royality & only noble Muslims were allowed this luxury .
2. Kangha - A sign of cleaniness to maintain cleaniness of Hair as well as whole body .
3. Kirpaan - For self defence & also of the weak against any tyranny .
4. Kachera - A reminder of chastity & high moral character a Sikh is required to maintain .Even today a Sikh co-habiting with a person other than his/her own spouse is considered APOSTATE ( Sikh Rehat Maryada )
Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India
5. Kara - A reminder to Sikh that anything he is doing with his ( right ) hand should be as per the order of the Guru . Nothing which is prohibted by the Guru should be done . Another arguement some times comes is that a round Kara is a reminder of the infinite God who has no beginning & no end . This is what I have made of 5Ks with whatever little understanding I have .
One more thing is that for Sikhs it should be a open & shut case regarding 5Ks because our TENTH MASTER made it mandatory . We have to stop trying being SUPER GURUS & just feel proud to be Sikh ( the one who learns by following the Guru ) .
Regards,
Dalbir Singh

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Dalbir Ji,

Thanks for clarifying the 5 K's.

Cordially,

Virinder

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Pk70 ji writes:

Dr Bhai Sahib Bhai Harbans Lal Ji is a Sehajdhari Gursikh who has contributed a lot in context of Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji, he never attacked 5 Kakars.

I need some clarification from the Sadh sangat.

1. What is a Sehajdhari Sikh?

2. What is a Sehajdhari Gursikh and any difference in the two? If there is, please elaborate for my understanding.

And following is the post #11 in this same thread I am reposting because there was no response to it:

Dear Sadh Sangat,

I need your help in finding the answers to the following:

1.Are all 25 millions Sikhs Keshsdhari or does this number also include Sehajdharis, meaning people who do not keep unshorn hair?

2.If all 25 millions are Keshadhari Sikhs, then how many have taken Kandei De pahul?​

3.How many Sehajdhari Sikhs are there?​

4. Does SGPC keep any stats to find out the above?​

Thanks​

Tejwant Singh​

 

[spnadmin]

Tejwant ji

In a moment of humor (and no one was there to hear but myself) I wondered -- what about someone like me who is semi-keshdhari? Of course there is no such thing. But the idea of sehajdhari is of a progression, with different people at different milestones marking their progress. Alas, there are times when I am not sure whether we have decided what we are progressing toward. I would still say that taking any one or two or three or more of he K's has to be a very personal thing. No one else can tell you in the end why you should do it. You do it because it makes sense to you because of your own reasons that lie deep within. There is a saying -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. Who would give a horse a lecture saying -- Look I brought you all the way over here to this pond and now you are stalling and taking your time! You are thristy and here is the pond. Take a drink! You have to do that! When the horse is ready it will drink.

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Aad Ji,

I totally agree with you-it is not the 5 K's but the spirituality/faith or what ever is personal and private. No one has any right in judging or telling any one but one's own self says Guru Angad in Raag Majh;

ਨਾਨਕ ਪਰਖੇ ਆਪ ਕਉ ਤਾ ਪਾਰਖੁ ਜਾਣੁ ॥ ਰੋਗੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਦੋਵੈ ਬੁਝੈ ਤਾ ਵੈਦੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥

Nānak parkẖė āp ka¬o ṯā pārakẖ jāṇ. Rog ḏārū ḏovai bujẖai ṯā vaiḏ sujāṇ.

O Nanak, if someone judges himself, only then is he known as a real judge. If someone understands both the disease and the medicine, only then is he a wise physician.
-----Guru Angad Dev, Raag Majh, AGGS, Page, 148-8
Guru Nanak in Raag Asa;

ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਪੂਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਘਟਿ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਆਖੈ ॥ਪਤਿ ਪਰਵਾਣਾ ਪਿਛੈ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਤੋਲਿਆ ਜਾਪੈ ॥

Sabh Ko Poora Aapay Hovai Ghat Na Ko-ee Aakhai, pat parvaanaa pichhai paa-ee-ai taa naanak toli-aa jaapai.

Every one deems himself perfect, and none calls himself imperfect. If the weight of honor is placed on the scale, then, O Nanak, one sees his true weight.
-----Guru Nanak, Asa Di Var, AGGS, Page, 469-4
Thanks for your comments.

Cordially,

Virinder

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant ji

In a moment of humor (and no one was there to hear but myself) I wondered -- what about someone like me who is semi-keshdhari? Of course there is no such thing. But the idea of sehajdhari is of a progression, with different people at different milestones marking their progress. Alas, there are times when I am not sure whether we have decided what we are progressing toward. I would still say that taking any one or two or three or more of he K's has to be a very personal thing. No one else can tell you in the end why you should do it. You do it because it makes sense to you because of your own reasons that lie deep within. There is a saying -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. Who would give a horse a lecture saying -- Look I brought you all the way over here to this pond and now you are stalling and taking your time! You are thristy and here is the pond. Take a drink! You have to do that! When the horse is ready it will drink.

Aad ji,

Guru Fateh.

When I was writing this post, you were on my mind and I must confess that your quest demonstrates through your posts how close you feel yourself to Ik Ong Kaar no matter what kind of 'Dhari' you are in my opinion. The fact is that Sikhi glows in your posts.

Keep up the good work and keep on teaching us about Sikhi from your facet.

Thanks for your contributions and insights.

Tejwant Singh

 

[tony]

Dear All
Thank you Virinder ji and Dalbirk ji for telling me what they are intended to do, Dalbirk ji your explanation of hair is the best I've heard and makes a lot of sense. Not sure that a face with a flowing beard looks more radiant though but I'll leave that to personal opion and not dispute it. You mentioned co-habitating with some one other than your spouse being an Apostate, what is an Apostate please.
Pk70 ji
No one is critising or mocking those who carry them, I'm only asking why so that I and others can get a better understanding of them, If one doesnt ask why then one wears them in blind faith. If Guru Nanak ji didnt question others believes he would have had a thread round is neck and Sikhism wouldnt excist. I am asking so as to learn. You stated the Kirpan is a symbol of power is that appropriate to Sikhism. May I also take it that with your statement that Sikhs should have arms suitable to todays times that you think Sikhs should swop there Kirpan for a Magnum. I have no problem in wearing the five K's just want to no why they are there.
Gyani ji
You have stated that many use Gurbani and twist it to justify the need not to wear them, however I have noticed that on the subject of hair it is the other way round, many quotes are twisted to say that you must have them, constant one liners to show hair is mentioned but they are taken out of context, many have gone to extraordinary lenghts to show this. I accept it is a personal choice to wear/ not to wear them and havent witnessed any one trying to persuade any one to follow any chosen path either way. I am very happy to see anyone win the right to wear them as this is a victory for freedom. As the SGGS doesnt mention them, How else is a person supposed to find out why we have them. I have only asked for someone to point me in the right direction to where the Hukam is that states it, Yet as to date no one has all I get is that its from the tenth Nanak ji but no one can or has said where I might find it. Your are right and I do not disagree that Guru ji said that the SGGS was to be the final Guru ji and that all a Sikh needs to know is in it, As this hukam isnt then the question must arise as to why. I'm not having ago at any body just asking thats all, not hot under the collar just a simple question that no one has answered yet.
Antonia ji
I agree with you that its something you do when your ready and hopefully this thread might help me towards doing it, The thing is that when I first started reading about Sikhism ten years ago, I read that the five items that Guru ji gave the Panj pyar wheren't the five K's as is today, it said that they where five different types of weapons, a short dagger, the kirpan, a spear, a bow and arrow and a rifle, which if you where making an army would make more sense, and that the Khalsa where told not to cut their hair at that time as it would have been seen as a sign of convertion to islam, just a rebel thing to show the mogul rulers that they wouldnt conform. The reason it was never added to the SGGS was that it was thought that the moguls would not be in India for ever, so therefore the need to rebel would come to an end and so would the need for arms. Whether there will ever be peace amonst all men and the need for arms will be lost is up to mankind, but while ever one side carries them the other side will always strive to get bigger/ better arms. this is why I ask is there still a need for hair and a Kirpan.
I am still open to reasons for them and would still love for some one to show me where I can find this Hukam.
Tony

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Tony Ji,
Guru nanak ji is the BEST.
On Page 595...He says.Man Hali Kirsanee karnee...
Read the whole shabd in Raag Sorath...
The Metaphor used is of the Farmer...in his fields...
WE are that FARMER..and the Filed is our Mann..the Mind.
First a Farmer tills the field..ploughs it..
Then he Sows the seeds..
Then he Levels it..called SUHAGA PHERNA..a sort of heavy log is dragged all over the field levelling it.
Then he waters it and takes care of the crops.
The Mann is the Field..the Naam is the seed... the Levelling log is SANTOKH..contentment and taking care is through HUMILITY.
Here TIME is of the essence..Tilling/seeding/etc OUT OF SEASON/TIME is utterly uselss.
The Leveller log (SANTOKH - CONTMENT) is to HIDE the seeds from the BIRDS of HAUMAII !!
There is a time and place for everything...Time and tide wait for no Man.
Just like just about everyone is running madly after RICHES...very few attain real riches..a large percentage are Middle Income...and huge percentage are Below the Povert line.
Similarly in the Religious/Spiritual filed..also MOST are Middle Income..Vast majority are Below the Povery Line..ONLY a FEW are "really rich". Everyone has a chance to GROW..but very few really DO.
Next Guru nanak ji goes for the Metaphor of the Shopkeepr..
Haann hatt kar aarja..Page 595 raag sorath.
What does a Shopkeepr do ? He stocks a variety of goods..and a good shopkeepr knows EXACTLY what is where ? When a customer requests ...say sugar..the shopkeeper gives him sugar and NOT salt. Thus the customer is happy..the buisness grows. What IF the shopkeepr always gives out salt when sugar si requested ? Or cant find the stuff ?? Or die to sloppy storage..the salt is mixed with sugar ??
WE are that SLOPPY SHOPKEEPER. We DONT KNOW WHERE TO KEEP a valuable thing as NAAM !! How high and valuable Naam is..In which Bhnada..vessel to keep it ? A good shopkeepr keeps OIL in earthenware/glass container...not a basket.
First of all VERY FEW really know what NAAM is. Some find out..and dont know how to USE IT...others begin to HAWK IT..rather than USE it.
Guru nanak ji teaches us how to LIVE LIFE...Jeewan Jaach...He says..Farming is good..the Jatt is good, the shopkeepr is Good..sales is good..business is good...everything and everyone is GOOD..provided the RIGHT WAY and RIGHT METHOD is used/applied.
Guur Ji uses the Buisness Metaphor next..Sunn sasat saudagree Page 595 Sorath..
The RIGHT Merchandise, must be transported in the RIGHT manner, on the RIGHT Transport, and sent to the RIGHT PLACE at the RIGHT TIME and sold at the RIGHT PRICE and used in the RIGHT manner. Only then cna hte business PROSPER and not go bankrupt.
But what do we do..We CHEAT in buisness..sell shoddy goods...use the cheapest materials..high prices..out of date methods etc and still want SUCCESS. Sure..we becoem RICH..collect large properties..think we have RESPECT..actually we are LOSING even the "Capital" we were born with.
Then Guru Ji talsk about the WORKING CLASS..the Naukars..the "salary earning class".. One may be a clerk,,a Doctor..a Headmaster..a Govt Officer..a Trainer..a Teacher...IF one doesnt do ones work with HONESTY as expected of hsi "job description/duty" then ones not doing whats expected. A Doctor who paints a nasty picture to hsi patient just so that hecan frighten him into more surgeries/vitamins etc so he can buy that New Merc/Boat he wants for his retirement..or the Teacher who is lazy and relies on last years exam questions only...Corruption, dishonesty..are all at its peak. NO one talks about FARZ..DUTY..everyone is screaming about "AUTHORITY"..I am the SENIOR..I KNOW MORE..I am the EXPERT...the BEST..How dare you twist my words..are you "sincere " ??
GURU NANAK ji Prepared the FIELDS... Each of the following GURUS..planted the seeds..and the Final CROP is GURU GOBIND SINGH JI. It is totally wrong to say that One GURU is dIFFERENT...says different..talks different....No way the "seed" that Guru nanak ji planted looks like the Ripe Crop that Guru Gobind Singh ji has for us.
Guru nanak broke all TRADITIONS..he chose Guru Angad based solely on GUNN...no preferences..no blood relationships.. and NONE of the other GURUS differed in any way from the FOUNDATIONS set by Guru nanak ji. The SIKH GURUS are developing the SIKH....from SEED to FULL SROOP...through TEN Generations. IF it was just and simply INTERNAL GUNNS..then ONLY GURU NANAK JI is ENOUGH..Guru nanak ji has already SAID and written ENOUGH on this subject..IN FACT all the other Gurus are REPEATING and RESTRESSING/EXPANDING on GURU NANAK JI. It is clear the EXTERNAL is being DEVELOPED through the NINE Following GURUS...while STRENGTHENING THE INTERNAL goes on as a Continous process from 1469- 1699.

AT KESHGARH SAHIB...GURU GOBIND SINGH DREW a PHYSICAL NAKED SWORD...and demanded a HEAD.
He DID NOT "unsheath the GYAAN KHARRAG" !! Couldnt He have just "demanded" a head WITHOUT SHOWING THE NAKED PHYSICAL SWORD ?? I have just two questions. WHY Name this place "KESHGARH" and WHY draw a naked SWORD ? The GYAAN KHARRAGG had been used/REINFORCED for the past 200 years..in SGGS....and SIKHS had been GIVING thier HEADS..in the FOUR Battles of Guru hargobind JI.....why the NEED to unsheath the Physical Sword and ask for heads once again ?? Is this just DRAMA ??

2. Guur Gobind Singh Ji gave 5 TEERS - personal arrows tipped with gold tip to Banda Singh bahadur when he was given PAHUL, RE-Named banda SINGH from banda Bairagi (sadhu) as aMark of AUTHORITY wehn Banda Singh was despatched to PUNJAB. Panj Piayaras and Five weapons. NO. Could be a writing by a maverick..as NO reputable historian mentions any such 5 weapons - Again the DECIDING FACTOR- KESHGARH SAHIB where the 5 Piayaras were chosen and HONOURED.

3. Read the 1984 annals of recent History in India...the very first thing the MOBS would do to a KESHADHAREE SIKH was to CUT his hair and BEARD "BEFORE" placing a tyre around him and dousing him with petrol. Kerosene was poured into the KESH and set on fire. It is OBVIOUS..the KESH sets the hearts of all ABLAZE..the "css" among sikhs as well as the enemies of Sikhs outside. The KESH is the greatest HURDLE these cannot surmount....and to hide this..they search for arguments to attack the other four Kakars. NONE of the SIKHS in 1984 were earmarked for "CONVERSION"...the mobs were not interested in CONVERTING THEM...just for killing. Thus is totally demolished the spurious argument that the MUGHALS were "converting" and thus into cutting hair...just for that. Then and NOW..its the KESH that count...MOST. I am not in possession of any statistics...BUT i am sure ONLY KESHADHAREE SIKHS" weere targettd by the MOBS in 1984 simply because thats the easiest way to IDENTIFY a SIKH. A CSS is a "HINDU" for them... - as nobody can "see" his clean insides...and thus conclude he is really a sikh.
So much for ..living in the PAST..etc etc..THIS is 21st century TODAY...no one is living in the past....except maybe those still stuck to interpreting the SGGS in terms of pre-1699 only. I am living in the POST 1708 period...

3. You are free to do as you wish....thats called FREEDOM OF CHOICE..Be a GOOD sikh..slow and sure..all yours..matey... and I will never acuse you of twisting or turning my words...not my style at all.
HAPPY SIKHI..all the WAY..:happy:

 

[pk70]

Response to TonyPk70 ji
No one is critising or mocking those who carry them, I'm only asking why so that I and others can get a better understanding of them, If one doesnt ask why then one wears them in blind faith. If Guru Nanak ji didnt question others believes he would have had a thread round is neck and Sikhism wouldnt excist. I am asking so as to learn. You stated the Kirpan is a symbol of power is that appropriate to Sikhism. May I also take it that with your statement that Sikhs should have arms suitable to todays times that you think Sikhs should swop there Kirpan for a Magnum. I have no problem in wearing the five K's just want to no why they are there.
Toni ji(quote Toni Ji)
Tony Ji
Guru Nanak dint question whatever a true Guru told people to do, he questioned whatever was set up by religious so called exploiters, 5 Kakaars were given by Satguru Gobind Singh Ji, so that kind of questioning doesn’t align with Guru Nanak’s questioning.
Well if you are asking just due to being curious, other posters have already answered that. Five Kakars are different than thread wearing around the neck; it was answered by Respected Gyani Ji. Let me just concentrate on what I said. Toni ji, I don’t know about you, there are some Sikhs who do not like to wear them. It is O.K Toni ji, no one is criticizing them for not wearing them, if any one does, fails to understand Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Problem comes when they start quoting Gurbani to fortify their manmatt to preach others against 5 Kakaars by saying they are out dated. I am amritdhari, I feel, if they cannot, it’s alright but they do not need to beat drums of their own opinion against 5 kakaars by saying they do not bring spirituality. That is laughable. In over 20 years in US, due to turban, I lost financially and faced very derogatory comments. Nothing could change me, I am doing fine. Is this what I wear brings spirituality, no, it is actually battle within with five primal forces that makes the difference.
Sword is still a symbol though we have laser-guided weapon. That was another reason Guru chose this over spear which could be better weapon from distance. My opinion is that sword can be worn as symbol but other weapons must be achieved legally, as Guru’s insight, we must have to defend ourselves and to protect in case the weak is in danger. Had Sikhs in Delhi had new weapons, they couldn’t have butchered so easily. Even Amritdhari Sikhs should obtain new kinds of weapons for protection. In U.S, bear to arms is a right, people exercise it legally and diligently.

 

[japjisahib04]

Tony Ji,
Guru nanak ji is the BEST.
On Page 595...He says.Man Hali Kirsanee karnee...
Read the whole shabd in Raag Sorath...
The Metaphor used is of the Farmer...in his fields...
WE are that FARMER..and the Filed is our Mann..the Mind.
First a Farmer tills the field..ploughs it..
Then he Sows the seeds..
Then he Levels it..called SUHAGA PHERNA..a sort of heavy log is dragged all over the field levelling it.
Then he waters it and takes care of the crops.
The Mann is the Field..the Naam is the seed... the Levelling log is SANTOKH..contentment and taking care is through HUMILITY.
Here TIME is of the essence..Tilling/seeding/etc OUT OF SEASON/TIME is utterly uselss.
The Leveller log (SANTOKH - CONTMENT) is to HIDE the seeds from the BIRDS of HAUMAII !!
There is a time and place for everything...Time and tide wait for no Man.
. It is OBVIOUS..the KESH sets the hearts of all ABLAZE..the "css" among sikhs as well as the enemies of Sikhs outside. The KESH is the greatest HURDLE these cannot surmount....and to hide this..they search for arguments to attack the other four Kakars. NONE of the SIKHS in 1984 were earmarked for "CONVERSION"...the mobs were not interested in CONVERTING THEM...just for killing. Thus is totally demolished the spurious argument that the MUGHALS were "converting" and thus into cutting hair...just for that. Then and NOW..its the KESH that count...MOST. I am not in possession of any statistics...BUT i am sure ONLY KESHADHAREE SIKHS" weere targettd by the MOBS in 1984 simply because thats the easiest way to IDENTIFY a SIKH. A CSS is a "HINDU" for them... - as nobody can "see" his clean insides...and thus conclude he is really a sikh.:happy:

In stanza 32-33 Guru Nanak explains that the means to meet God is not simple and straight but abrupt and steep and one shall have to climb up the stairs of spirituality not by merely reciting His Name continuously but with His grace. Now are we entitled to get His grace by merely lifting the veil of Lower instincts-one of these is ego/Houmai. The answer lies in the pankti ‘karmi aavai kapda’ which as per my understanding is by lifting the veil of lower instincts we only get rebirth but nadri mokh duar. Bhagat Kabir defines about this path in this manner, “kbIr ijh mwrig pMifq gey pwCY prI bhIr ] iek AvGt GwtI rwm kI iqh ciV rihE kbIr ] - the crowds follow the path which the clergies, have laid down (which Mr.Grewel most of the time boost as majority). He says path to God has difficult and treacherous cliff and unlike joining the crowd, Kabeer is following alone that distinct path to the Divine of piercing through the GurShabad.” - Guru Granth ang.1373.7. Since it is not a trade-in or bargaining deal but a private affair of union, it cannot be achieved by the labor of other people, thus Guru Nanak eliminated the intermediatary. Though we know milk contains butter but mere churning will not produce butter, it has to be churn with a method. Same way we know God resides within us but mere mechanical repetition as imposter will not help us to realize God. It needs Gods grace. Can we get the grace by throwing our Husbands most revered and beautifully addressed hairs? Can we think of clean ourselves by disobeying His gifts? Can we think of stopping our mind roaming by disfiguring ourselves? Further, remember path to Him is not that easy that you pay the money to bhaiji with long hairs and he does prayer for you. It is, “KMinAhu iqKI vwlhu inkI eyqu mwrig jwxw ] - sharper than the edge of a double-edged sword and finer than a hair, thus to pass this corridor with other’s labor is out of question.” - Guru Granth p-918.19. Thus everyone must be saint and sipahi.
Best regards
Sahni Mohinder

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

“kbIr ijh mwrig pMifq gey pwCY prI bhIr ]iek AvGt GwtI rwm kI iqh ciV rihE kbIr ]


Kudos to kabir Ji..again. For calling a psade a spade...

MAJORITIES ?? Bahiir...is a large unending stream of "mindless" followers.....reminds one of the sheep going to slaughter...the huge crowds that Guru nanak Ji, Guru Amardass Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji saw and met at HARDWAAR/Kurkshetar MELA, at the Famous Mandirs of Jagn-nathpuri, ( JUGGERNAUT word comes from here) at Mecca...constitute the MAJORITIES.
BUT the KHALSA of Guru nanak ji Sahib is NEVER - not then and Not Now and Not in the Future..ever a "Majority". We are advised to be "AAkllein Sahib Seveaah...Follow with the use of the God Given intellect and not blindly....thus of necessity the KHALSA will always be the FEW..( Not CHOSEN ONES..but those who CHOSE to..) because the paath chosen is as Saini ji illustrates..thinner than the sharpest blade of the KHANDA which is used to prepare the PAHUL - the Real Steel stuff ..not Gyaan da Khanda whcich no one can "see"...SYMBOLISM of Gyan da khanda revealed for all to see !! This difficult path is a personal choice - voluntary and made with conviction after reaching of age of maturity is open to all SIKHS and Non-SIKHS alike and none is admitted by birth/privilege/social standing/..in fact all previous connections are decimated..Janam nash, Kul Naash, Dharam Naash..life begins anew..fresh and radiant...the perfect conclusion..TRANSFORMATION of a SAINT into a SIPAHI as well.
Tyrranny, injustice,bad rulers, corrupt leaders, etc etc are not a thing of the past..never will. These will always exist - thus the Sant-Sipahi will always be "Need of the Times" and not "outdated" or "dated to 17th Century. Only a 'visible" named, Card Carying citizen willing to be COUNTED will matter..others will blend in with the nameless "majorities" that prefer to remain "anonymous". Perfectly all right..and acceptable. !! Absolutley NO PROBLEM accepting that choice - its the RIGHT of the PERSON.

2. Sehajdharees as originally were the utmost humble members who preferred to stay in the background and do seva..serve almost anonymously. I have had the pleasure to deal many Sindhi Sehajdharees...they were happy to do kirtan, seva, and assemble alongside the Khalsa . They knew the Paath the SGGS intimately. never wanted anythign to do with Elections/managemnt etc...

Its the "modern SIKH BORN..mostly "JATT Caste" Sikhs that refuse/chose not to/dont want the Pahul/Khalsa Brotherhood BUT demand as a matter of RIGHT the positions of Pardhaans/Skattars and Management of Gurdwaras as "equals" of the SANT-SIPAHIS ( while laying claim only to the "SANTS" part ( absolutley difficult to cultivate and prove) and refusing the SIPAHI part as totally irrelvant/useless) that is the crux of the problem. Their claim is "MAJORITY"..we are the MAJORITY...GIVE us CONTROL. the age old war over "territory". Interestingly the Western Sikhs who are ALL SANT-SIPAHIS (and genuinely Sehajdharees only for a short while) face no such battles for control in their Gurdwaras..this is the way of the Khalsa. It is mostly a PUNJABI problem..mainly a JATT problem !! Even more interestingly..those Jatt Born progeny who have left the Gurdwaras alltogether..are into "territorial wars" of another kind as well..the GANGSTER WARS of Canada..for the very first time in Sikh history we have so many "SIKH" GANGS and killings and MAJORITY of these are not Keshadharee and they are jatt born... and this is result of a lot of factors, one of which is missing religion. First generation ONLY grad-dad has Dastaar...Son has some gurbani/punjabi knowledge....but..no KESH..next generation..timbuktoo !!no punjabi knolwedge..no gurbani..nothing...blended into majority.
This is a MAJOR problem..i dont have any statistics ( neither have the others ) and the SIKH Communiity will have to face and solve somehow .....but certainly the problem cannot go away by selective chocie of Tuks from SGGS to reinforce the "MAJORITY IS RIGHT"..and that SGGS sanctions the SANT ONLY part of the equation. This is a totally false premise that cannot stand scrutiny. The Tenth nanak did NOT break with the other Nine to go about His own way - He gave Gurgadee to SGGs and He followed to the letter the WAY of the Nine nanaks preceeding Him. Those who beleive in this may be a "MINORITY"..but this minority will NEVER go away/disappear/vanish/relinquish the SANT-SIPAHI tradition of GURU NANAK JYOT.
All "assumptions" mine and mine alone..NO Offense to anyone and none taken. my own opinions.:happy::happy::happy::happy::happy::happy:

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Here is an inspirational story from the USA
SPIRITUALITY
TheStar.com | GTA | White by birth, Sikh by choice
White by birth, Sikh by choice

RICHARD LAUTENS/TORONTO STAR
Guru Fatha Singh Khalsa — formerly Gordon Grossman — attracts many covert but curious glances. He says he is "past the stage of (caring about) people staring."

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Quest for enlightenment led from United Church to yoga and ashrams

Apr 11, 2009 04:30 AM
TheStar.com | GTA | White by birth, Sikh by choice

Raheel Raza
SPECIAL TO THE STAR

When a few thousand Sikhs take to the streets on April 26 to celebrate Vaisakhi, a man who was one of the Punj Piaray (the beloved and revered group of five) to lead the parade in 1997 and 1998 is likely to be walking along, inconspicuously this time.
But isolated from the crowd, Guru Fatha Singh Khalsa is a sight to behold. In multicultural Canada, his traditional Sikh outfit of "Bana" (flowing shirt and pants), turban and beard should perhaps not be at odds with his white skin and green eyes. And yet, they are. He attracts covert but curious glances.
"I'm past the stage of (caring about) people staring," he says with a hearty laugh over a green tea in a coffee shop downtown.
When we meet next, it is on the third floor of a beautifully restored home in the heart of Little Italy. This is the Guru Ram Das Ashram, where Singh Sahib (or Singh Sir) – as he insists on being called – is speaking to his yoga students about self-esteem. A few minutes later, they start breathing exercises and yoga. One of his students, 29-year-old Jaya Smith, calls him a powerful teacher. "The yoga charges my inner energies," she says, "and his lectures before yoga are spiritual and inspiring."
Singh is no ordinary teacher. He combines spiritual teachings, music, chanting and yoga in his classes, inspiring students with his sense of humour and ready laughter.
He is comfortable with his identity and his attire, although he was born to neither.
Born Gordon Grossman to a United Church family in Thunder Bay, Ont., he grew up in Kingston during the era of the Vietnam War and Kent State, and anti-war demonstrations were rife. "At 8, I realized that as people grow older, they don't necessarily get happier. I didn't want to grow up like them, following just one trend of thought like sheep." He had ethical and moral questions about war, but found "adults were no good at answering these."
He embarked on his own search for answers, reading Marx, Nietzsche and every philosophy book he could find.
"I guess there was activism in me from childhood and I knew that everyone can make some difference. So at 14, I became a vegetarian and decided not to cut my hair because it's a natural growth." Out comes that hearty, booming laugh again as he adds: "That didn't sit too well with my mother."
At 16, he left home in search of a teacher. This led him to Vancouver, where he found Swami Janardan Paramahansaand and learned meditation. He also began the practice of Hatha Yoga with students of Swami Satchidananda.
"I had only one criterion at that time: my teacher must have long hair," Singh recalls. "And this one did, so I became a student."
But the thirst for wisdom remained. It was this search for enlightenment that led him to Sikhism. In 1972, he moved into a Sikh ashram in Toronto. Here, at last, he began to feel at home.
"I found the Sikh tradition to be disciplined and open, and I related well to this," he says.
He found a teacher in Yogi Bhajan, a charismatic spiritual leader. And that's when Gordon Grossman became Guru Fatha Singh Khalsa.
It is also when he "learned the concept of Satnam – be true to yourself," he says, a concept that empowered his activism regarding issues of truth and justice."
In 1976, Singh launched a successful case with the Canadian Human Rights Commission for his right as a Sikh to join the armed forces while wearing his turban and beard. He launched another case in 1979 to be allowed to drive a taxicab as an observant Sikh.
Singh was married, but he divorced in 1995. His ex-wife moved to the U.S., although they both remained involved in the upbringing of their son, Himmat Singh.
Himmat, now 21, graduated from Miri Piri Academy, a Sikh School near Amritsar, India, and now studies at a community college in Eugene, Ore.
Himmat, who is an observant turban-wearing Sikh, says, "I'm not as comfortable as my dad with my physical appearance but I'm very much like him."
He attributes his learning to his father. "Although I was born in a Sikh family, like other kids I questioned why I am Sikh," Himmat says. "Especially between the ages of 8 and 11, when other kids used to call me names like 'towel head.' "


Over the years, he says, "I found I like the lifestyle and values and I was luckier than my Dad to have close friends who are Sikh."


:welcome:THIS is the attitude we all welcome....no compulsion..voluntary choice. Jarnail Singh.:happy:

 

[tony]

Dear Gyani ji
Thank you for your comments they are much appreciated and please believe me when i say that i am in no way against the five ks nor will i ever disrespect those who wear them, I'm not a jaat nor anyone else who is after taking control of the Gurdwaras I have enough problems with running my own life. Now you have asked me two questions

1. why was it called Keshgarh.
My answer is no idea as i dont speak panjabi, I have tried to look it up but could omly find the kesh/ kes, meaning unshorn/ untrimmed, could not find the word garh attached to kesh or unattached.

2. why did Guru Gobing Singh ji draw the naked sword
That seems pretty obvious, he wanted someone who would truly offer their head, look how long it took for each to decide to offer theirs and how few actually did, then look at how many and how quickly the rest did once they new he wasnt going to kill them, so may be not for drama but definetly to get only those who truly would sacrifise themselfs.
You dismissed the idea of 5 weapons quite quickly, why ?.
I will give you 5 with the letter K
1. Kirpaan
2. Khandha
3. Kaman (bow)
4. Katar
5. Karpa bharchla (a Spear)
only a thought
You have mentioned 1984 and how the Sikhs had their hair cut before tyres where put round their neck and set alight. the reason for cutting their hair, again is simple what is the most precious thing for a Sikh after God. A good way for a muslim to humiliate a Sikh before death. One can deny that hair is not precious to a Sikh but look at the threads on hair.
In your second post you say that the perfect conclusion is the transformation of a saint into a sepahi what does this mean please. you also say that the card carrying ones willing to be counted are the ones that matter, I take it you mean the Amritdhari Sikhs. You seem to for get that it was the Sehajdhari Sikhs who risked their lifes daily to keep the Gurdwaras whilst the Amritdhari where in the jungles, Both sides risked their lives for Sikhism both sides deserve praise. I havent said nor attempted to separate the Guru jis and if others have then ask Antonia ji to remove that section of their post please.
Pk70 ji
I have read your post and understand your view point, please understand that I'm not against the five K's ,I'm trying to get a proper prospective of them. I was of the uderstanding that Sikh = learner, how does one learn the truth without asking questions. You mentioned your situation in the U.S and how you suffered for your believes, I have suffered just as much during my life not for the same thing but still suffered. From the age of 5 till I was 15 I was bullied every day at school, the names they called me was normally based on the fact that I have dark skin for a white guy, so possible the same sort of names, also at the age of 9 because I had alapechia due to the stress of bullying I grew my hair to hide the bold spots. this only gave the bullies something to grab hold of, still wouldnt cut it. At 15 I struck back at the bullies, all 6 in the space of a week, and for my reprisals I got 3 mths from the courts in a youth detention center. in there they forcefully cut my hair. When i got out I grew it back and kept it till I was 19, and have been shaven in some form or other( many Punk styles ) all a form of none conformaty. Gyani ji says it is the card holders who count, but I would like to ask when was the last time any of us stood up in front of 50+ drunken yobs to protect an innocent, How many have scars on their face and body defending total strangers, how many have had bottles thrown at them for helping an outsider. how many really put their lifes on the line for something they believe in. I no one, one who worked a long side a Amritdhari who when it came to the crunch left his side to fight on his own on more than one occassion. How many of the Amritdhari Sikhs at a bhangra night helped when the trouble started.
Some Sehajdhari Sikhs are just as willing to tread that path of the sharp sword without the need to carry the five K's. just have a believe in the right thing to do at the right time forgetting the possibility of personal injury. Who knows it may have been a Sehajdhari who was one of the first to stand up and offer his head. I know that amonst the Sikhs Ive worked with which is always the first. Now enough of knocking each side the question was about the five K's and why . I have asked if someone could point me in the right direction so that I can read this Hukam for my self, but instead of following the Sikhi way of the truth and saying outright I dont know where it is or even that its not written any where, its just been passed down by word of mouth, there are now four pages of posts accusing one side of putting the other down. Please is it written or not, if not and you would like to put a case for or against please feel free to do so. but there is no need to attack or accuse the other side because they disagree as Pk70 ji said to Virinder ji if you state your opinion others dont have to agree.
Respectfully to all
Tony
Ps pk70 ji my name is spelt with a Y not an I (male, female thing)

 

[tony]

Dear Tejwant ji
I sorry but I cant help you with how many of each there are but may be if we had a poll here on SPN it would help. Might not be a true cross section of society but its a start. Something along the lines of the one How many married out of caste. with the option to say why they chose their path and no one can disagree. Might even be a better way of finding out what I want to know. Would start it myself but havent got a clue how.
just a thought
Respectfully
Tony

 

[pk70]

Pk70 ji
I have read your post and understand your view point, please understand that I'm not against the five K's ,I'm trying to get a proper prospective of them. I was of the uderstanding that Sikh = learner, how does one learn the truth without asking questions. You mentioned your situation in the U.S and how you suffered for your believes, I have suffered just as much during my life not for the same thing but still suffered. From the age of 5 till I was 15 I was bullied every day at school, the names they called me was normally based on the fact that I have dark skin for a white guy, so possible the same sort of names, also at the age of 9 because I had alapechia due to the stress of bullying I grew my hair to hide the bold spots. this only gave the bullies something to grab hold of, still wouldnt cut it. At 15 I struck back at the bullies, all 6 in the space of a week, and for my reprisals I got 3 mths from the courts in a youth detention center. in there they forcefully cut my hair. When i got out I grew it back and kept it till I was 19, and have been shaven in some form or other( many Punk styles ) all a form of none conformaty. Gyani ji says it is the card holders who count, but I would like to ask when was the last time any of us stood up in front of 50+ drunken yobs to protect an innocent, How many have scars on their face and body defending total strangers, how many have had bottles thrown at them for helping an outsider. how many really put their lifes on the line for something they believe in. I no one, one who worked a long side a Amritdhari who when it came to the crunch left his side to fight on his own on more than one occassion. How many of the Amritdhari Sikhs at a bhangra night helped when the trouble started.
Some Sehajdhari Sikhs are just as willing to tread that path of the sharp sword without the need to carry the five K's. just have a believe in the right thing to do at the right time forgetting the possibility of personal injury. Who knows it may have been a Sehajdhari who was one of the first to stand up and offer his head. I know that amonst the Sikhs Ive worked with which is always the first. Now enough of knocking each side the question was about the five K's and why . I have asked if someone could point me in the right direction so that I can read this Hukam for my self, but instead of following the Sikhi way of the truth and saying outright I dont know where it is or even that its not written any where, its just been passed down by word of mouth, there are now four pages of posts accusing one side of putting the other down. Please is it written or not, if not and you would like to put a case for or against please feel free to do so. but there is no need to attack or accuse the other side because they disagree as Pk70 ji said to Virinder ji if you state your opinion others dont have to agree.
Respectfully to all
Tony
Ps pk70 ji my name is spelt with a Y not an I (male, female thing)

Tony Ji
Please forgive me for misspelling your name.
There is a Bani “ Dakhni Onkaar” by Guru Nanak where he talks about false deeds and right deeds in context of realizing the Creator, Guru Gobind Singh ji purposefully asked the Sikh to follow SGGS Ji but his own gifts have their own importance. A famous actor late Balraj Sahni ji who was a serious student of philosophy expressed his views about Guru Gobind Singh Ji. In essence he called him “All in one”, to defend ourselves and the weaker is coming from him.
To defend ourselves and the weaker is what he infused in the Sikhs, If you have witnessed Sikhs including Amritdhari not to come out to help, they have fallen low in Guru’s eyes but Tony ji it doesn’t mean what Guru ji preached was faulty.( I am not saying that you think that way, just trying to say that some one’s failure has nothing to do with importance of a Guru given Virtue ) Contrry to your experience, in Amritsar, a few years ago, alone Sikh with Kirpan saved a helpless girl from a gang. He alone represented Guru-preached virtue. So don’t learn anything from them who failed to represent Guru even in Bana or not in bana.
I would recommend you that work on your inner self, when you feel to commit to Guru, go for it and never let the world teach you how to live. All is in your hands.