The Five K's, Why

[spnadmin]

Dear Tony Ji,

I read your response to others as the true perception of Sikhi. One is known by his/her actions and association. A book cover does not tell what is in the book.

It reminds me the story of Kabir when he was being treated by Brahmins as a low, menial class weaver as to how he can come up to the status of Brahmin. Kabir replied to the Brahmin in Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 324;

ਗਰਭ ਵਾਸ ਮਹਿ ਕੁਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਤੀ ॥ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਿੰਦੁ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਉਤਪਾਤੀ ॥ਕਹੁ ਰੇ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਬਾਮਨ ਕਬ ਕੇ ਹੋਏ ॥ਬਾਮਨ ਕਹਿ ਕਹਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਮਤ ਖੋਏ ॥ਜੌ ਤੂੰ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣੀ ਜਾਇਆ ॥ਤਉ ਆਨ ਬਾਟ ਕਾਹੇ ਨਹੀ ਆਇਆ ॥ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਹਮ ਕਤ ਸੂਦ ॥ਹਮ ਕਤ ਲੋਹੂ ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਦੂਧ ॥ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ ॥ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਕਹੀਅਤੁ ਹੈ ਹਮਾਰੈ ॥

Garabẖ vās meh kul nahī jāṯī. Barahm binḏ ṯė sabẖ uṯpāṯī. Kaho rė pandiṯ bāman kab kė ho¬ė. Bāman kahi kahi janam maṯ kẖo¬ė. Jou ṯūʼn barāhmaṇ barahmaṇī jā¬i¬ā. Ŧa¬o ān bāt kāhė nahī ā¬i¬ā. Ŧum kaṯ barāhmaṇ ham kaṯ sūḏ. Ham kaṯ lohū ṯum kaṯ ḏūḏẖ. Kaho Kabīr jo barahm bīcẖārai. So barāhmaṇ kahī¬aṯ hai hamārai.

In the dwelling of the womb, there is no ancestry or social status. All have been created from the Seed of God. O, Pundit and religious scholar, tell me since when have you been a Brahmin? Don't waste your life by continually claiming to be a Brahmin. If you are indeed a Brahmin, born of a Brahmin mother, then why didn't you come by other special way than the common way? How is it that you are a Brahmin, and I am of a low social status? Is it that I am formed of blood, and you are made of milk? Says Kabir, one who contemplates God, is said to be a Brahmin among us.

Cordially,

Virinder

The full shabad:

ਗਉੜੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ॥
gourree kabeer jee ||
Gauree, Kabeer Jee:

ਗਰਭ ਵਾਸ ਮਹਿ ਕੁਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਤੀ ॥
garabh vaas mehi kul nehee jaathee ||
In the dwelling of the womb, there is no ancestry or social status.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਿੰਦੁ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਉਤਪਾਤੀ ॥੧॥
breham bindh thae sabh outhapaathee ||1||
All have originated from the Seed of God. ||1||

ਕਹੁ ਰੇ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਬਾਮਨ ਕਬ ਕੇ ਹੋਏ ॥
kahu rae panddith baaman kab kae hoeae ||
Tell me, O Pandit, O religious scholar: since when have you been a Brahmin?

ਬਾਮਨ ਕਹਿ ਕਹਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਮਤ ਖੋਏ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
baaman kehi kehi janam math khoeae ||1|| rehaao ||
Don't waste your life by continually claiming to be a Brahmin. ||1||Pause||

ਜੌ ਤੂੰ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣੀ ਜਾਇਆ ॥
ja thoon braahaman brehamanee jaaeiaa ||
If you are indeed a Brahmin, born of a Brahmin mother,

ਤਉ ਆਨ ਬਾਟ ਕਾਹੇ ਨਹੀ ਆਇਆ ॥੨॥
tho aan baatt kaahae nehee aaeiaa ||2||
then why didn't you come by some other way? ||2||

ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਹਮ ਕਤ ਸੂਦ ॥
thum kath braahaman ham kath soodh ||
How is it that you are a Brahmin, and I am of a low social status?

ਹਮ ਕਤ ਲੋਹੂ ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਦੂਧ ॥੩॥
ham kath lohoo thum kath dhoodhh ||3||
How is it that I am formed of blood, and you are made of milk? ||3||

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ ॥
kahu kabeer jo breham beechaarai ||
Says Kabeer, one who contemplates God,

ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਕਹੀਅਤੁ ਹੈ ਹਮਾਰੈ ॥੪॥੭॥
so braahaman keheeath hai hamaarai ||4||7||
is said to be a Brahmin among us. ||4||7||

edited by aad0002

Virinder ji

Please forgive me for disagreeing with you. However, the shabad has nothing to do with the 5 K's. The shabad pertains to a more spiritual path to God.

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Aad Ji,

It might not have any thing to do with 5 K's but it is the attitude of the Sikhs with BaNa towards Non BaNa Sikhs. Negative and positive attitude has lot to do with life and other fellow humans.

Thanks.

Virinder

 

[spnadmin]

Virinder ji

So how does this shabad illustrate the attitude of Bana versus non-Bana Sikhs? I don't see it. This shabad is for everyone to think about and apply.

False piety is found in every religion. It just so happens that at the time the Shabad was written the main problem was the corruption of Brahmins and their disregard of the suffering of others.

Bana Sikhs come in all stripes in terms of their level of spiritual development. So do non-Bana Sikhs. Is it OK to use Gurbani to generalize against any group? When the tables are turned and Gurbani is used against non-Bana Sikhs, there are many voices here who protest when they do it. So why apply the shabad against Bana Sikhs in general?

It is always wrong to condemn another person in the name of God no matter who does it or who is being condemned. Don't you agree?

 

[mystique_void]

"It might not have any thing to do with 5 K's but it is the attitude of
the Sikhs with BaNa towards Non BaNa Sikhs. Negative and
positive attitude has lot to do with life and other fellow humans."

In the province of British Columbia, more than hundred thousand
people gathered for Nagar Kirtans to celebrate Vaisakhi. There
were countless scenes of Bana and Non Bana individuals
(including Caucasians, Muslims, Hindus) hugging each other,
serving each other and eating together. They even came on
the same cars because they are part of the same family.

When facts are in contradiction with ideology, malice, cunning.
dirty politics, destructive mindset, negative attitude - sensible
and intelligent people let the facts triumph.

 

[japjisahib04]

Virinder ji

So how does this shabad illustrate the attitude of Bana versus non-Bana Sikhs? I don't see it. This shabad is for everyone to think about and apply.

False piety is found in every religion. It just so happens that at the time the Shabad was written the main problem was the corruption of Brahmins and their disregard of the suffering of others.

Bana Sikhs come in all stripes in terms of their level of spiritual development. So do non-Bana Sikhs. Is it OK to use Gurbani to generalize against any group? When the tables are turned and Gurbani is used against non-Bana Sikhs, there are many voices here who protest when they do it. So why apply the shabad against Bana Sikhs in general?

It is always wrong to condemn another person in the name of God no matter who does it or who is being condemned. Don't you agree?

Antonji
You take any of his article you will find malice toward bana sikh. I wonder if this should be permitted on sikh form.
regards\Sahni Mohinder

 

[spnadmin]

Antonji
You take any of his article you will find malice toward bana sikh. I wonder if this should be permitted on sikh form.
regards\Sahni Mohinder

Sahni Mohinderji

We can be working on the problem of malice, and working on it in a way that moves beyond arguments of the past. At least I hope so.

The best thing we can do is refresh our vichaar with the entire shabad, provide a complete understanding, and frame our disagreement accordingly. That way we are discussing an issue per Gurmat and not dealing in personalities. If we don't move in that direction -- well, all we get is a firestorm of accusations. Guru's kirpa -- and this firestorm will be reversed soon. Thanks for your kindness. You have been exceptionally generous with your insights.

Forum rules do forbid undermining of Sikhism, but that is not the same thing as disagreement about the requirement of Bana. What is not permitted is any suggestion that one side or the other has failed as a Sikh. If we stick to the Shabad we won't have time or energy to sock it to our adversaries. Please be patient with our moderation team.

Antonia

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Aad Ji,

Tony's response and mystique voids response illustrate what I meant.

Regards.

Virinder

 

[mystique_void]

Dear Aad Ji,

Tony's response and mystique voids response illustrate what I meant.

Regards.

Virinder

Sir,

What are you talking about? You have not addressed what Aad ji
mentioned. Looks like your response was created not by
a person but by a random word-generator.

Regards,

 

[Archived_Member4]

Sahni Mohinderji

We can be working on the problem of malice, and working on it in a way that moves beyond arguments of the past. At least I hope so.

The best thing we can do is refresh our vichaar with the entire shabad, provide a complete understanding, and frame our disagreement accordingly. That way we are discussing an issue per Gurmat and not dealing in personalities. If we don't move in that direction -- well, all we get is a firestorm of accusations. Guru's kirpa -- and this firestorm will be reversed soon. Thanks for your kindness. You have been exceptionally generous with your insights.

Forum rules do forbid undermining of Sikhism, but that is not the same thing as disagreement about the requirement of Bana. What is not permitted is any suggestion that one side or the other has failed as a Sikh. If we stick to the Shabad we won't have time or energy to sock it to our adversaries. Please be patient with our moderation team.

Antonia

Aad ji, everytime a member ask for Virinders side he backs away, but continues to write his abstracts against the 5 k's. He's not willing to discuss this openly. He says its his opinion and trys to end the discussion this way. I have told him before and I'll tell him again there is not a shabad or tuk that speaks out against 5 k's and yet he still trys to manipulate a tuk and produces as it does.

Virinder ji, this is the third time I am asking you, present the shabds that rejects form (5k's). If you're not willing to do so then and I mean this in the most respectful way. Your opinion is nothing and it stands for nothing. You have nothing, but your willing to continue on with this rant of yours.

We are trying to understand where you are coming from, but you don't even provide anything for us, to let this happen.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Tony Ji,
you asked why Guru Gobind Singh Jis Kachaera, etc are NOT DISPLAYED along with his many weapons etc at Keshgarh and Hazoor Sahib.
Answer: The 5 Kakaars are a very PERSONAL GIFT. Theya re usually cremated together with the owner.
The weapons that Guur Ji used were many in number...and most are displayed.

2. The KANGHA of Guur Gobind Singh Ji complete with some strands of His Kesh is preserved by the Descendants of Pir BUDHU SHAH a Muslim Saint.
This was the Pir of SADHAURA who was an ardent follower of Guur Gobind Singh Ji. At one instance about 1000 Mughal soldiers came to him for help as they had been sacked by the local mughal Governor as redundant. The Pir being a kind man broght them along to Guur Ji and requested Guru Ji to employ them in hsi army. Guur Ji complied. This was just before the Battle of Bhanganni ( and its very possible that these soldiers were sent in as traitors but thats assumption.) Anyway at the height of Battle..these EX- mughals oldiers deserted enmasse. When the news reached the Pir...he assembled his four sons and about 700 of his murids and rushed to the Guru Jis aid...The Pir lost his FOUR SONS in the Battle fo Bhnaganni as well as a few hundred of hsi murids fighting on the Gurus side.
After the Battle wehn the Pir went to Guur Ji's tent to meet him, Guur Ji was combing his hair. Guur Ji asked the Pir....Friend..you have done me a great favour.. The Pir repleid..No My Friend...I had to do thsi as I was ashamed of the traitors i brought in. No said Guru Ji..you have still done a great favour..ask of me anything your heart desires...and after a few moments of thought..Pir Budhau Shah replied..I desire nothing..but if you are in the mood of giving..then PLEASE GIFT ME YOUR KANGHA that you are holding in your hand...and dont remove the Blessed KESH. Guru Ji GIFTED him the KANGHA and the KESH stuck in it.
In 1965 I had the good fortune to have Darshan of this kangha that was brought to Malaysia by the Queen of Patiala Royal House.

From where and how did you get the misconceptiuon..that I am "getting heated up" ?? You must be confusing ME with someone else....because I read and re-read all my missives five times to avoid any "heat" even though I know I am never hot...never angry....just ask any of my students as SOME have already tried in the past..no such thing.

I have QUOTED the Single Line KESO KESO KOOKEAH...by Kabir Ji...as this Tuk genuinely stands alone...as the meaning is crystal clear... KESO is the LORD with Long Flowing KESH..and KOOKEAH means SHOUT out at the top of ones voice so thats heard all over. I am naturally curious that NONE of the GURUS, BHAGATS have DESCRIBED their BELOVED as "BALDY....shining Domed...chilkdah khoparr...Lord with the receeding forehead...Lord with the Horsetaill..punky hair..etc.etc. NOT ONE such "description"....i mean at least one should have mentioned...the LORD as such..( Never mins what message/etc behind the tuk/description...Lots of Brahmins at that time went BALD or had punky hair styles !! In fact many JOKES exist about these Brahmins and their POOCH on TOP !! No offense meant towards baldies punkys etc.

Hace a happy Khalsa day...even if its belated !!:happy::happy::happy:

 

[spnadmin]

Gyani ji

This is a tangential question. So you can answer in a private message not to distract the others. But how are you using the term "tuk" and what do you mean when you say it "stands alone." Just asking you to clear up some fogginess on my part. Thanks.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Dear Aad Ji,

It might not have any thing to do with 5 K's but it is the attitude of the Sikhs with BaNa towards Non BaNa Sikhs. Negative and positive attitude has lot to do with life and other fellow humans.

Thanks.

Virinder

The Brahmin..was Brahmin from BIRTH. Just as a Shudar was shudar from Birth and NOTHING can change that status. The Born Brahmin..remaisn a "Brahmin" No matter what his true actions....this is defended in Mannus Laws.

Similarly a Shudar could NEVER be "good"..no matter what !! and just to make sure...it was LAW that No Shudar could even hear the vedas..and if one was found doing that..he/she shoudl be amde an example of by POURING MOLTEN LEAD IN HIS EARS..r MOUTH if he was caught repeating the Vedas...and his eyes plucked out if he was caught reading the scriptures.

THIS is the Scenario that Kabir ji's above shabd is written in. The Sporotual message comes later.

Contarst with the BaNNa that this is stretched to comparison.
The Banna is Voluntary....and Gifted to ANYONE. Birth is of no consequence.
A Banna doesnt make the wearer IMMUNE BY LAW.
NON Banna doesnt make the person GUILTY BY LAW.
The Banna accords EQUALITY...brotherhood..etc etc.
Spiritual development comes later and is NOT dependant either on Banna or NO Banna.

2. Just like the BORN BRAHMINS condemned by Kabir Ji..its the "BORN SIKH" especially JATT Families..that demand "our rights by LAW"....claim "inner spirituality" by LAW/sheer non-compliance. In reality the "born Sikh" is a MYTH just like the Born Brahmin..born shudar etc of Mannu Laes. No one can be a Born Sikh..has to be BY CHOICE.

 

[pk70]

The Brahmin..was Brahmin from BIRTH. Just as a Shudar was shudar from Birth and NOTHING can change that status. The Born Brahmin..remaisn a "Brahmin" No matter what his true actions....this is defended in Mannus Laws.

Similarly a Shudar could NEVER be "good"..no matter what !! and just to make sure...it was LAW that No Shudar could even hear the vedas..and if one was found doing that..he/she shoudl be amde an example of by POURING MOLTEN LEAD IN HIS EARS..r MOUTH if he was caught repeating the Vedas...and his eyes plucked out if he was caught reading the scriptures.

THIS is the Scenario that Kabir ji's above shabd is written in. The Sporotual message comes later.

Contarst with the BaNNa that this is stretched to comparison.
The Banna is Voluntary....and Gifted to ANYONE. Birth is of no consequence.
A Banna doesnt make the wearer IMMUNE BY LAW.
NON Banna doesnt make the person GUILTY BY LAW.
The Banna accords EQUALITY...brotherhood..etc etc.
Spiritual development comes later and is NOT dependant either on Banna or NO Banna.

2. Just like the BORN BRAHMINS condemned by Kabir Ji..its the "BORN SIKH" especially JATT Families..that demand "our rights by LAW"....claim "inner spirituality" by LAW/sheer non-compliance. In reality the "born Sikh" is a MYTH just like the Born Brahmin..born shudar etc of Mannu Laes. No one can be a Born Sikh..has to be BY CHOICE.

Respected Gyani Jio
Thanks for nice views

Let me share an example that proves that Guru Nanak wore bana( dress) obviously he doesn’t criticize bana but hypocrisy of people hidden behind bana ( Those Guru Vaakas that criticize hypocrisy are often ignorantly used against Sikh-bana by some Sikhs who are against it). I would support it with an example
Read Sidh gosht very seriously not for a count, you will find crystal clear Guru Nanak's admission that once with a reason he wore a Hermit- bana ; When first time Guru ji met yogi, he was wearing that Bana but when they met him in Batala( Punjab), Guru ji was in a family- man- dress. So Yogi asks Guru Nanak by reminding him of his hermit- bana, here it is
SGGS 939
“ਕਿਸੁਕਾਰਣਿਗ੍ਰਿਹੁਤਜਿਓਉਦਾਸੀ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]ਕਿਸੁਕਾਰਣਿਇਹੁਭੇਖੁਨਿਵਾਸੀ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]Kis kāraṇ garihu ṯaji▫o uḏāsī.[/FONT]Kis kāraṇ ih bẖekẖ nivāsī.[/FONT]
In Essence: For what reason did you forsake home to become hermit? For what reason did you adopt that dress[/FONT]?[/FONT]

Guru Ji answers those questions[/FONT]
ਗਰਮੁਖਿਖੋਜਤਭਏਉਦਾਸੀ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]ਦਰਸਨਕੈਤਾਈਭੇਖਨਿਵਾਸੀ[/FONT]
Gurmukẖ kẖojaṯ bẖa▫e uḏāsī.[/FONT]Ḏarsan kai ṯā▫ī bẖekẖ nivāsī.[/FONT]
In Essence: In search of Gurmukhas I became hermit, to see them (meet personally) I adopted that dress (of Hermit)”[/FONT]
No wonder Tenth Master has given Bana to the Sikhs for a reason because there is nothing wrong with Bana who cannot wear it, its fine but they should refrain from criticizing it or those who can wear it (and do) by saying it doesn’t bring spirituality and to support their ignorance, they shouldn’t distort Gurbani.[/FONT]
Thanks.[/FONT]
Regards[/FONT]
G Singh[/FONT]

 

[spnadmin]

Here is the complete shabad. Ang 939

ਕਿਸੁ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਗ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਤਜਿਓ ਉਦਾਸੀ ॥
kis kaaran grihu thajiou oudhaasee ||
"Why have you left your house and become a wandering Udaasee?

ਕਿਸੁ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਇਹੁ ਭੇਖੁ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ ॥
kis kaaran eihu bhaekh nivaasee ||
Why have you adopted these religious robes?

ਕਿਸੁ ਵਖਰ ਕੇ ਤੁਮ ਵਣਜਾਰੇ ॥
kis vakhar kae thum vanajaarae ||
What merchandise do you trade?

ਕਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਥੁ ਲੰਘਾਵਹੁ ਪਾਰੇ ॥੧੭॥
kio kar saathh langhaavahu paarae ||17||
How will you carry others across with you?""||17||

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਖੋਜਤ ਭਏ ਉਦਾਸੀ ॥
guramukh khojath bheae oudhaasee ||
I became a wandering Udaasee, searching for the Gurmukhs.

ਦਰਸਨ ਕੈ ਤਾਈ ਭੇਖ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ ॥
dharasan kai thaaee bhaekh nivaasee ||
I have adopted these robes seeking the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan.

ਸਾਚ ਵਖਰ ਕੇ ਹਮ ਵਣਜਾਰੇ ॥
saach vakhar kae ham vanajaarae ||
I trade in the merchandise of Truth.

ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਉਤਰਸਿ ਪਾਰੇ ॥੧੮॥
naanak guramukh outharas paarae ||18||
O Nanak, as Gurmukh, I carry others across. ||18||

 

[pk70]

Aad Jio
I wonder how translator says that “to see Lord’s vision he adopted that dress.” Guru Nanak doesn’t support that theory ( to see him any one needs any dress, did other Gurus wear Udaasi dress to see HIM?), in the first Vaak, Guru ji mentions why he became udasee( in search of Gurmukhas) , now suddenly the translator is relating “dress” to see His vision? Actually the second Vaak is also about Gurmukhas not about “Lord’s vision” as translator says. First idea goes through the next, “vision of Lord” is an assumption
Sorry to interrupt, I couldn’t accept the translation. Thanks for posting whole Shabada.

 

[lalihayer]

As per Bhai Sahib Singh teeka,
ਅਸਾਂ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਾਂ ਦੇ ਦਰਸ਼ਨਾਂ ਲਈ (ਉਦਾਸੀ-) ਭੇਖ ਧਾਰਿਆ ਸੀ।
meaning I have adopted these robes to meet Gurmukhs.

 

[spnadmin]

Aad Jio
I wonder how translator says that “to see Lord’s vision he adopted that dress.” Guru Nanak doesn’t support that theory ( to see him any one needs any dress, did other Gurus wear Udaasi dress to see HIM?), in the first Vaak, Guru ji mentions why he became udasee( in search of Gurmukhas) , now suddenly the translator is relating “dress” to see His vision? Actually the second Vaak is also about Gurmukhas not about “Lord’s vision” as translator says. First idea goes through the next, “vision of Lord” is an assumption
Sorry to interrupt, I couldn’t accept the translation. Thanks for posting whole Shabada.

pk70 ji

We have to post the entire shabad so there it is. You are welcome. It would be a good idea to go back to the exact lines where the problems are cropping up. What different translation would you give for the places where the translator got it wrong. I am not trying to play the school teacher and give a homework assignment. Here is why I am asking.

The translation actually seems to contradict the point of the Shabad as a whole. So the translation must be flawed. Why not go in there and do some surgery on it. Pull out the broken pieces of wrong thinking.

Thanks

 

[pk70]

pk70 ji

We have to post the entire shabad so there it is. You are welcome. It would be a good idea to go back to the exact lines where the problems are cropping up. What different translation would you give for the places where the translator got it wrong. I am not trying to play the school teacher and give a homework assignment. Here is why I am asking.

The translation actually seems to contradict the point of the Shabad as a whole. So the translation must be flawed. Why not go in there and do some surgery on it. Pull out the broken pieces of wrong thinking.

Thanks

Many thanks

Regards

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Gyani ji

This is a tangential question. So you can answer in a private message not to distract the others. But how are you using the term "tuk" and what do you mean when you say it "stands alone." Just asking you to clear up some fogginess on my part. Thanks.

AAd Ji,
what I mean is that its simple "instruction"..no other meaning...

kbIr kyso kyso kUkIAY n soeIAY Aswr ]
kabeer kaeso kaeso kookeeai n soeeai asaar ||
Kabeer, chant the Name of the Beautifully-haired Lord; do not sleep unaware.
The second line Completes the idea...
rwiq idvs ky kUkny kbhU ky sunY pukwr ]223]
raath dhivas kae kookanae kabehoo kae sunai pukaar ||223||
Chanting His Name night and day, the Lord will eventually hear your call. ||223||

My point is the "Name" given to the Creator by Kabir Ji is DESCRIPTIVE....KESO means that with Long Flowing Beautiful Hair..nothing more nothing less.

ANd ALL OTHER Guurs/bhagats always mention their Creator/Beloved/Lord...as the One with Long..FLOWING..BEAUTIFUL HAIR.
So this is not a case of the "TUK" being isolated and taken out of CONTEXT because the following tuks/shabd prove otherwise. Here there is NO such out of context/twist/misinterperting.....just plain simple and clear INSTRUCTION from kabeer JI.
This is why NO ONE quotes this TUK...it doesnt serve their purpose of NEGATING HAIR .

Thanks...

 

[tony]

Dear Dalbirk ji
Thank you very much for your response, I accept that their is a big difference between the Sikhs that I used as examples here in the UK and the Sikhs that you use in India, It shows though that there is good and bad like you have said in all types. The point I was making was that here in the Uk possible the same in India is that the Five K's doesnt work for every one, and agree whole heartedly with you that the majority shouldnt be judged (if thats the right word to use) by the minority. May I thank you also for the insight in to how marriages are conducted in your country and say that this may also be the case here in the UK, It was the ones that I have witnessed in the course of my work and these may also be a minority, Very sorry if I gave the impression that it was the majority and was painting a bad picture of Sikhs as a whole in the UK, I Can assure you that the majority of Sikhs conduct themselfs in a proper and fitting manner, Although I would like to point out that the interest in flashy car, designer labels isnt only restricted to the young or the Sehajdharis its also the older Sikhs who have the big S class Mercs and most of the Amritdharis also, Many of the Amritdharis abandoning the traditional dress for designer suits, Both sides have the same problems. Thank you again for taking the time to state your opinions in a non argumentative manner, many can learn from this approach.
Dear Virinder ji
Thank you for your response and may I say I agree with you that one should not judge a book by its cover. I understand the message you where saying in quoting the story, its a statement that of equality and in no way does it attempt to put down either side just states all are equal in the eyes of god which I think is relavant to this discussion, I am not attempting to lower the significance of the Five K's for those who choose to wear them, and also feel that it is those who choose not to wear them for whatever reasons that are being judged.
The next few posts are the very arguments that I didnt want to attract, please if you have a point of veiw put it over, if you disagree with anothers please try to say it without personal attacks, Lets try to keep it clean, I would like to say that in my opinion there is no need to use any part of the SGGS in this discussion as there is no mention of the five K's in any way, either for or against, If you think other wise and feel the need to quote, then please give your personal interpritation as to how it refers to the five K's. Thank you
Dear Gyani ji
Thank you and sorry if I have got it wrong in saying you are getting heated, It was the use of bold capital lettering that suggested this to me and the emphasising of certain words my appologies. I have read the story you told about his Kangha and would like to ask if you are sure that the Kesh is blessed, who blessed it. You also say that the five K's are a very personal gift and that they are cremated with the person, This is in contrast to what I understood about wordly items, nothing goes with you after death and seems to be an attachment to Maya. Also the fire would have to be extremely hot to melt cast iron so surely it wouldnt have been distroyed, Also I have studied many of the early portrait/ paintings of the Guru ji and notice that the Kara is only shown on those Dated after the 1800's, around the time the first copies of the Dasam granth where seen, You have also quoted the line Keso Keso Kookeah and say it describes the lord with long flowing hair, How do you know that God has long flowing kesh, It states in the SGGS that the lord is undescribable and that those who try to describe him will burn, so I think this might be one of those times that the line is mistranslated, also I read in another thread that the true translation doesnt refer to hair at all, It just relates to God being wonderful and beautiful and if this is the case could the name Kesgarh have been slightly changed from Kesogarh, and as for he's never been described as punky or boldy or he with the receeding for head how do you know he isnt and what will you say when your time comes to meet him and you stand before him, he with the bold head, punky mohawk , receeding forehead,, God is indescribable so please please refrain from trying, no one knows what he looks like, although he can be seen in every thing including bold, punky, receeding men. Sorry just an opinion.

btw the word Bana translates to dress and doesnt mean or have anything to do with the five K's in the SGGS, so again please stop quoting/ misquoting. It is misleading to new comers and also takes up a lot of time when I have to keep checking translation and I also believe that it is a forum rule that all panjabi have the correct English translation, many are just using panjabi words with no English translation to accompany them. Thank you.
Sorry Gyani ji I just read your last post and I'm wondering if you could explain which of the words in the two lines you have quoted actually mean Hair and which ones mean God. as this again goes against the do not describe God, GOD is undescribable please please stop trying its wrong to attempt to and its wrong to use Gurbani to support your argument, It doesnt attempt to describe God any where in the in the SGGS as a human form so how can he have long flowing hair. I would rather hear your personal reasons for having the five K's and how you use them,
Still No one will tell me is the Hukam written or not, or are we relying on 300 yrs of hearsay,
So far only a few have answered with their personal reasons for wearing them and these are much appreciated and are the ones I'm looking for, No need for quotes of Gurbani as these quotes dont help, they only open the thread up for arguments, not what I'm after
Many Thanks to all for the answers so far
Tony