To Live In Truth

[Harry Haller]

meditation, is definitely important part in Sikhism, like I've mentioned in the other posts, what it does is temporaly release you from the illusion, and in the long run as you more realise the illusion reduce the effect of ego, and to bond the soul with the divine world. Meditation is also important for the person to discover his/her true self.

Sikhs are supposed to live in the real world, supposed to be able to handle the real world, not go running to go bonding with what you call the divine world, this only furthers my feelings that meditation is nothing more than escapism, the parallels to drug induced feelings of serenity and knowledge are clear. The only way to discover the true self is to live and think truly, in all situations, if you can sit on a train full of women in mini skirts, and see them all as your sisters, without effort, without panic, then you are living, in my opinion, truthfully, if you have to start meditating because the bad thoughts are starting, you will probably miss your stop, and what does it actually achieve, what understanding, what wisdom,

If you ask me if this all can be gained without meditation, yes it can but it likely would be very very very hard.
And yes only medition is not enough, you first have to understand the thieves, in order to conquer them.

Ah well you see, again, in my opinion, meditation just makes things worse, it merely prolongs the day of reckoning when you have to deal with these issues, lust, greed, ego, etc.

Harry Haller ji the only point to keep reading the Gurbani is first to understand it. However you ask whats the point of reading Gurbani if someone already understands it, gurbani is there to motivate you on your journey when you feel like your straying from your path.

please do not put words in my mouth, read my quote again, that is not what I am saying, it is being inferred that Bani can be understood by grace, whilst grace undoubtedly has a hand, it is through hard work, and thinking, contemplation, and ultimately practice that enables one to understand Gurbani. Sometimes I sit in the bath for hours, with my three dogs sitting on the floor, and I think, and I keep thinking, batting ideas like tennis ***** in my head, I talk to the dogs, they unfortunately cannot answer, but after a while, I might come up with a theory, a path, an action, that may help me in my quest not to be ruled by the thieves, and I try it out, experiment with it, that to me is naam simran

Yes, one needs simran even if you mentaly are capable to remember and understand everything you read in GGS ji, everyone gets a moments when he is straying from the path thats where reading GGS ji helps. To live in the truth one first has to realize whats creating the Lie and fight the evildoer inside ourself.

firstly define simran, secondly, fighting solves nothing, I have been fighting all my life, and I am quite fed up with it, it is a fight that cannot be won in my opinion, some facets of the thieves are useful, some are downright essential, to want something, get it, and enjoy it is only a hop skip away from wanting something and feeling your life would not be worth living without it, you then need it, and then the blinkers come down and all you can see is that thing, maybe that is when it becomes a thief, when it takes you over, when it ceases to be something 'nice' and becomes something 'essential', to make this call requires discipline and discretion, logic helps too, I've spent too long fighting to see others end their lives in a fight, maybe when bani talks of the thieves they are talking of our lusts being in control, rather than us being in control of them, so control them, control yourself, easier than destroying parts of you, in my opinion

 

[chazSingh]

Chazji, my dear brother in arms,

On the big scale of life we all do what gets us through the night, I am not out to convert or change the minds of anyone, I resent the implication that naam simran is a completely meditative domain, meditation is great, many do it, but all I am saying is that naam simran can be expressed in many many different ways, through seva, through connection.

If meditation works for you, Lucky et al, great, brilliant, I am absolutely pleased for you, it has to be better than sitting in front of a computer screen watching filth with a joint in your mouth,

My only concern and it is for me I say this, which is why I do not practice it, is that it only blots out the filth for the moment, yes it fills your head, yes it drives all other thoughts out, but back in the real world, back when you have that feeling in your stomach, when the need for gratification through any way is the only thing on your mind, when your buzzing like an alarm bell, and you feel weak, helpless, like a zombie doing its masters bidding, when the thieves are fully in control, then all life is false, everything is false, and you end up like a yoyo between serenity and hell.

that is my understanding of the situation, I am happy to stand corrected.

agree completely

but its not a bad thing...all these falling into the 'false' under these 5 thieves is a continuous test of our conscious control of our selves.

The beauty is we're able to recognize them, evaluate their effects on us...and see them as almost a seperate entity to us...this to me is Grace...
most think 'they are their emotions' and are completely entangled in them...they don't recognize as having a choice in the matter...

so keep recognizing them

Gurbani already describes this...a lifelong battle with the 5 thieves...even when we feel clear of them, they are ready to pounce at any weakness...to always be alert...

 

[kggr001]

Sikhs are supposed to live in the real world, supposed to be able to handle the real world, not go running to go bonding with what you call the divine world, this only furthers my feelings that meditation is nothing more than escapism, the parallels to drug induced feelings of serenity and knowledge are clear. The only way to discover the true self is to live and think truly, in all situations, if you can sit on a train full of women in mini skirts, and see them all as your sisters, without effort, without panic, then you are living, in my opinion, truthfully, if you have to start meditating because the bad thoughts are starting, you will probably miss your stop, and what does it actually achieve, what understanding, what wisdom,

What Meditation is does is show you the illusion you don't really escape this world. realising the illusion can help you understanding things.

please do not put words in my mouth, read my quote again, that is not what I am saying, it is being inferred that Bani can be understood by grace, whilst grace undoubtedly has a hand, it is through hard work, and thinking, contemplation, and ultimately practice that enables one to understand Gurbani. Sometimes I sit in the bath for hours, with my three dogs sitting on the floor, and I think, and I keep thinking, batting ideas like tennis ***** in my head, I talk to the dogs, they unfortunately cannot answer, but after a while, I might come up with a theory, a path, an action, that may help me in my quest not to be ruled by the thieves, and I try it out, experiment with it, that to me is naam simran

I also have that when I'm laying on my bed, I'm thinking for hours coming with theories/paths/action, However there are many moments in our lives, that we lose the sight of the path and again get controlled by the thieves, thats where we read GGS ji to not stray from the path.

firstly define simran, secondly, fighting solves nothing, I have been fighting all my life, and I am quite fed up with it, it is a fight that cannot be won in my opinion, some facets of the thieves are useful, some are downright essential, to want something, get it, and enjoy it is only a hop skip away from wanting something and feeling your life would not be worth living without it, you then need it, and then the blinkers come down and all you can see is that thing, maybe that is when it becomes a thief, when it takes you over, when it ceases to be something 'nice' and becomes something 'essential', to make this call requires discipline and discretion, logic helps too, I've spent too long fighting to see others end their lives in a fight, maybe when bani talks of the thieves they are talking of our lusts being in control, rather than us being in control of them, so control them, control yourself, easier than destroying parts of you, in my opinion

With simran I meant reading/listening to GGS ji, your believes and mines are not that different, I think thats me whos unclear, I do believe you have to fight them, since if you let them control you it's like a poison thats easily can take over control.

" the thieves are useful, some are downright essential, to want something, get it, and enjoy it is only a hop skip away from wanting something and feeling your life would not be worth living without it"

Can you give an example of that?

In my eyes living in the truth is living how the guru's lived, everywhere they looked they saw the lords creatness.

 

[chazSingh]

and what does it actually achieve, what understanding, what wisdom,
[|QUOTE]

i will describe it to you like this, and then after i will stop discussing this, as we'll just go round and round in Circles

Have you seen the Film 'The Truman Show'
Jim Carrey is Born into a Show...He doesn't realize it...He thinks he is Living the TRUTH

Yes, his world is physically real, Yes it exists...but it is a Lie

slowly he starts to realize things, others cast members start to prod him with little 'insights'. He starts contemplating...wondering...and seeking...

Eventually He starts to feel like his world is False...that there is another Truth...He doesn't know what that truth is...but something deep inside him is pushing him to go seek it...so he gets on a boat, and just keeps sailing...Sailing for what..he doesn't know...where should he go...in which direction...he doesn't know...he just keeps going

He refuses to accept his World as the complete truth..

While His seeking is on the outside for his answers...
Gurbani tells us to seek within...

Naam Simran, if we 'really' want the answers to the complete Truth...literally starts to open our eyes to the Truth...

It is not us being stupid and looking within...It is Gurbani Telling us to do this...

When i started i (just like Jim Carrey) i didn't know how to seek, or where...and even when Gurbani Said seek within...i didn't know how...what can exists within...body is crammed full of blood, water, organs etc...what can surely exists in this little body of mine.

i thought what can one do other than to take their attention within...to sit peacefully and read gurbani without outer disctraction...to contemplate it...and emerse your mind in something that we believe is guiding us to that TRUTH.
and hope that When Gurbani says "take a step towards the Guru, and the Guru takes hundreds of steps towards you" that this in fact is occuring.

I can only say i no longer have any doubt over the above.

This is my final message on the matter...i hope it explains somewhat using a the Truman Show movie as an example... living a lie, and living in truth...that film depicts it all...

God Bless ji...

 

[Harry Haller]

" the thieves are useful, some are downright essential, to want something, get it, and enjoy it is only a hop skip away from wanting something and feeling your life would not be worth living without it"

Can you give an example of that?

plenty

firstly we are not Gurus, my wife and dogs would not be hugely impressed if I vanished for a couple of years to go searching for the truth, what Guru Nanakji did, he did for all humankind not for the self. As such his life, and all the lives of the Gurus were different to our lives, we are householders, we have jobs, we have to interact with people as equals, as employers, as employees, we have to stand up for ourselves when needed, when injustice is dished out to us, we have to fight for justice, in order to progress through the world that you call illusion, we have to feed ourselves, our families, our dogs, we have to deal with lusts, diversions, all the time the thieves are at play, there is no better example than the saying

money is the root of all evil
actually this is incorrect, the correct saying is
the love of money is the root of all evil

so I put it to you that the thieves are not the root of all evil, it is the love for the thieves that is.

If we are denied promotion at work again and again, and lesser people are promoted above us, should we sit back and meditate, or pray to god for justice, no, there is a part of us that feels pride, that strokes our ego, we are better than this, the lust for more money, for a better job, in small parts if these qualities drive us to stand up for ourselves and wish to be recognised, is that a bad thing?

In my view the bad things happen when we give the thieves the keys, let them run riot, turn into people ruled by them, rather than accepting they are there and ruling them.

 

[Harry Haller]

and what does it actually achieve, what understanding, what wisdom,
[|QUOTE]

i will describe it to you like this, and then after i will stop discussing this, as we'll just go round and round in Circles

Have you seen the Film 'The Truman Show'
Jim Carrey is Born into a Show...He doesn't realize it...He thinks he is Living the TRUTH

Yes, his world is physically real, Yes it exists...but it is a Lie

slowly he starts to realize things, others cast members start to prod him with little 'insights'. He starts contemplating...wondering...and seeking...

Eventually He starts to feel like his world is False...that there is another Truth...He doesn't know what that truth is...but something deep inside him is pushing him to go seek it...so he gets on a boat, and just keeps sailing...Sailing for what..he doesn't know...where should he go...in which direction...he doesn't know...he just keeps going

He refuses to accept his World as the complete truth..

While His seeking is on the outside for his answers...
Gurbani tells us to seek within...

Naam Simran, if we 'really' want the answers to the complete Truth...literally starts to open our eyes to the Truth...

It is not us being stupid and looking within...It is Gurbani Telling us to do this...

When i started i (just like Jim Carrey) i didn't know how to seek, or where...and even when Gurbani Said seek within...i didn't know how...what can exists within...body is crammed full of blood, water, organs etc...what can surely exists in this little body of mine.

i thought what can one do other than to take their attention within...
and hope that When Gurbani says "take a step towards the Guru, and the Guru takes hundreds of steps towards you" that this in fact is occuring.

I can only say i no longer have any doubt over the above.

This is my final message on the matter...i hope it explains somewhat using a the Truman Show movie as an example... living a lie, and living in truth...that film depicts it all...

God Bless ji...

In my view, the SGGS has to be read and understood by the very practical attitude of the Gurus throughout their lives, many of the stories are fabricated rubbish, which is why generally, I refuse to quote them, however, it is without doubt that the Gurus fought for justice, fought wars with bloodshed and losses of people, I think they would not have bothered if the world is as illusory as your post intimates.

 

[kggr001]

plenty

firstly we are not Gurus, my wife and dogs would not be hugely impressed if I vanished for a couple of years to go searching for the truth, what Guru Nanakji did, he did for all humankind not for the self. As such his life, and all the lives of the Gurus were different to our lives, we are householders, we have jobs, we have to interact with people as equals, as employers, as employees, we have to stand up for ourselves when needed, when injustice is dished out to us, we have to fight for justice, in order to progress through the world that you call illusion, we have to feed ourselves, our families, our dogs, we have to deal with lusts, diversions, all the time the thieves are at play, there is no better example than the saying

I know we are not Guru's but the Guru's want us to see how they saw things in the worlds, Like I've mentioned in other post a teacher would want his students to get arround his level or even beter if thats possible.

money is the root of all evil
actually this is incorrect, the correct saying is
the love of money is the root of all evil

so I put it to you that the thieves are not the root of all evil, it is the love for the thieves that is.

Harry Haller ji, I know that money it self is not root of all evil, and the luv for money is.

If we are denied promotion at work again and again, and lesser people are promoted above us, should we sit back and meditate, or pray to god for justice, no, there is a part of us that feels pride, that strokes our ego, we are better than this, the lust for more money, for a better job, in small parts if these qualities drive us to stand up for ourselves and wish to be recognised, is that a bad thing?

Yes, it is, we should be happy to see the others happy, we shouldn't care much about ourself, Guru's would never sacrificed them selfs for the Hindu's if they felt that pride. When we do sewa we also feel lower then the others we shouldn't have the feeling like why isn't he doing sewa, why do I have to do sewa, feelings like that drive you away from the path. The person who lives in the truth wouldn't care much about his promotion.

 

[Harry Haller]

Yes, it is, we should be happy to see the others happy, we shouldn't care much about ourself,

do you wish to tell that to the victims of 1984?

 

[kggr001]

do you wish to tell that to the victims of 1984?

Taking someones live is different then getting a promotion, Guru's sons also died, if the king of that time where to stop the war and ask for forgiveness, Guru's would've forgived him. They lords light besides in everything, most people are blind to see it. And out of the blindness they do terrible things.

 

[Harry Haller]

Taking someones live is different then getting a promotion, Guru's sons also died, if the king of that time where to stop the war and ask for forgiveness, Guru's would've forgived him. They lords light besides in everything, most people are blind to see it. And out of the blindness they do terrible things.

As Sikhs we encounter prejudice daily, those in full bana suffer even more than the baldies amongst us, injustice is injustice whether it be taking a life, or repression, sin in itself is not recognisable in Sikhism, thus forgiveness is by association possibly also unrecognisable.

Sikhism teaches that consequences follow actions, one has to stand up for oneself, it is a primary facet of Sikhism, it is why we are armed, it is also why the two swords of miri and piri exist, so the illusory world was never discounted in Sikhism, it even got its own sword on a par with the spiritual world, your attitude seems almost Buddhist rather than Sikh

 

[chazSingh]

Taking someones live is different then getting a promotion, Guru's sons also died, if the king of that time where to stop the war and ask for forgiveness, Guru's would've forgived him. They lords light besides in everything, most people are blind to see it. And out of the blindness they do terrible things.

A Complete truth...

 

[kggr001]

As Sikhs we encounter prejudice daily, those in full bana suffer even more than the baldies amongst us, injustice is injustice whether it be taking a life, or repression, sin in itself is not recognisable in Sikhism, thus forgiveness is by association possibly also unrecognisable.

Sikhism teaches that consequences follow actions, one has to stand up for oneself, it is a primary facet of Sikhism, it is why we are armed, it is also why the two swords of miri and piri exist, so the illusory world was never discounted in Sikhism, it even got its own sword on a par with the spiritual world, your attitude seems almost Buddhist rather than Sikh

Harry Haller ji, good points.

With forgiveness I meant in the previous post, forgiving the king of that time thus not killing him. Since they saw the light in everyone.

Remember Bhagat Ravidas ji, they didn't care if someone gave them money or not when they made there shoes. Thats the attitude every sikh should have.

Don't care about getting a promotion or not, be happy for the others, and don't be greedy that you also need it.

 

[chazSingh]

In my view, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has to be read and understood by the very practical attitude of the Gurus throughout their lives, many of the stories are fabricated rubbish, which is why generally, I refuse to quote them, however, it is without doubt that the Gurus fought for justice, fought wars with bloodshed and losses of people, I think they would not have bothered if the world is as illusory as your post intimates.

we've already spoken about how creation, existing within creation brings about experiences that better us...that allow us to develop and grow to bring about courage, fearlessness, resillience, forgiveness, amongst a whole countless number of other things...

all of which Jim Carey showed in his fight for the Truth whilst living amongst the Lie...
Jim Carrey in the movey had it all, a great job, beautiful wife...fantastic job....the greated friends...the best home....but he chose to seek something else....all of that crap meant nothing to him if he wasn;t living the TRUTH...

this is the Game of Love that Guru Nanak dev Ji describes...

Seriously harry ji...seeking the truth doesn't mean to stop everything and hide under a rock lol.

now i promised that i would no longer reply about this...and have shown just what a fool i am..

but your reply above? this is why we go round in circles..

God Bless...i am now on leave...

 

[Harry Haller]

Don't care about getting a promotion or not, be happy for the others, and don't be greedy that you also need it.

As this thread is about the truth, as circular as the arguments get, and as repetitious as the arguments get, such is also how the search for the truth gets, sure we may leave the path here and there, but to see what is truth and what is lie is central to this thread, so unless mods feel it is becoming pointless, I will crack on.

I find this thought process confusing especially given what Sikhism has been through, I did not think we were Christian type do gooders, ever ready to offer our other cheek for a slap, sure we serve, sure we help, but by damn we will stand up for ourselves, whether we are being used in the workplace, or being blamed for something that is not our fault, there is no mystical spaghetti monster that is going to put it all right, if Sikhism has taught me anything it is that wielding the sword of truth means we can do no wrong, the difficulty is knowing what is a universal truth and what is a lie. It is down to us to put things right, if someone rams your car from behind and then blames you for it, what are you doing to do? forgive them? get angry? blame them? no, I feel the Sikh way is very calmly to inform them that they are have just made themselves liable for car repairs and possibly damages for injuries, and thats it, period, no anger, no jumping up and down, no arguments. Your certainly not going to act like some modern day Jesus, forgive them and drive off smiling are you?

 

[kggr001]

if someone rams your car from behind and then blames you for it, what are you doing to do? forgive them? get angry? blame them? no, I feel the Sikh way is very calmly to inform them that they are have just made themselves liable for car repairs and possibly damages for injuries, and thats it, period, no anger, no jumping up and down, no arguments. Your certainly not going to act like some modern day Jesus, forgive them and drive off smiling are you?

If someone blames you for that and you really haven't done it, all you need to do is speak the truth and not support the lie.

 

[Harry Haller]

If someone blames you for that and you really haven't done it, all you need to do is speak the truth and not support the lie.

then if the truth is that you deserve a promotion why would you not speak it?

 

[kggr001]

then if the truth is that you deserve a promotion why would you not speak it?

Be happy what you get, some people have nothing. No need to be greedy for a promotion. Have contentment with what you have.
If the boss gave everyone promotion beside you, ask him without having greed in your mind, why he didn't give you your promotion.

If you feel like you work the hardest there and so you only deserve a promotion, then thats pride, ego, greed inside you thats controlling you. We should see our work as Sewa like chazSingh ji said, and always have in mind that we don't want more then others.

 

[chazSingh]

then if the truth is that you deserve a promotion why would you not speak it?

if you feel you deserve a promotion then ask for it...but keep watch of the emotions that brew up inside of you if you don;t get what you feel you deserve...

if we see our jobs as just service to humanity then we are doing seva all day long...and the promotion may arrive anyway...but we have kept our integrity through and through

if we get engrossed in wanting the promotion, the extra money, the pride...and get hurt when we don;t receive it...and then stop giving our all to the job...cutting corners...not completing work...then we have lost all to the love of money...

there are so many variables in this it is difficult to evaluate...but i guess the important thing is to see in each moment if we are thinking of our work as service and not wanting anything in return (even though we actually get paid)

or whether our effort of work is based on wanting something in return...

i always used to think selfless service was just to do with charity...but i'm realizing it is every moment...work, rest and play

 

[Harry Haller]

Gentlemen

you both seem to equate the truth with being a doormat, as far as I am concerned being an employee is nothing more than a business arrangement, you provide the employer with your services, and your employer ensures you are paid accordingly.

Chazji your quote in particular puzzles me,

or whether our effort of work is based on wanting something in return...

what your implying is that it is correct and true to work for someone, or engage in a business transaction with no expectation of reward. Since when did truthful living mean working for free?

Buddhists believe in attraction being a poison, you fellows seem to be on a similar path, attraction to pride, to ego, to greed, so you have gone the other way, you are now averse to it, is anti pride, anti greed, anti ego any better a position than the former?

Is the person that hates sex any better than the person that loves it?

So this is what I have always meant by truthful living, the truth, the truth is not being attracted nor averse to anything, but this is where, in my opinion, it gets hard, one needs logic, sense, discretion to work out what is the true action and what is the false action, to expect to be remunerated for your work is a true statement, to expect to be rewarded for your skills by increased use of your skills is a true statement, to expect to work under someone whose skills are dwarfed by your own and who gives you tasks to carry out that are false, is not the truth, it causes you to act untruthfully through no fault of your own, and you are expected to stand by and watch this happen, a true person would stand up and proclaim the truth, to fight for the truth, yes, there is selfless service, but there is also standing up for the truth, both are compatible,

 

[kggr001]

You shouldn't hate anything, you should realize what is controlling you, and conquer that(I know easy said then done) thats what I believe in. So an enlightened person wouldn't hate sex he would see it pointless beside procreation. He won't get the urge to have sex, since he is controlling the thieves and not opposite. Like I(speaking for myself) are being controlled like marionette by the thieves they are pulling the strings I've no control nor do I have the power to resist it, I see an enlightened person as a person having those strings in his controls.