Islam What Do You Think Of Islam?

[harmanpreet singh]

If you're afraid that the animal will feel pain, then don't kill it! Simple as that! Stick to dhal!

dhal is always served in Guru ka langars , Sikhs are encouraged to be vegan .

unlike slaughter house mosques

 

[choochoochan]

Choochji

I am glad that you have found a way of life that you are happy with, what happens sometimes in enthusiastic writing is that slowly the writing turns into proselytism, and those that do not share your enthusiasm may start questioning the validity of such, or indeed the intentions.

let us all get back to topic before adminji wakes up

Often people either get into the attack mode and i too, in the defensive mode.

This view on halal meat, is pointless in my point of view. The taste is definitely better to me, but the underlying principle must be something else. Why is pork not allowed? I dunno. If you object to it, then don't have it. But please don't preach to me why jhatka is better. Life in general is sacred. Human or otherwise.

When did i proselytize? I was sharing my opinions. People asked. I answered.

I see another question. Should i not answer? Lol :grinningkudi:

 

[choochoochan]

What do i think of Islam?

One word. Misunderstood.

 

[Ishna]

Harmanpreet ji

No, Sikhs are not encouraged to be vegan. We can't be, our karah prashad is made with ghee.

 

[harmanpreet singh]

Harmanpreet ji

No, Sikhs are not encouraged to be vegan. We can't be, our karah prashad is made with ghee.

sat sri akaal sis ji .
never noticed non veg Langar in Gurudwara sahib ,Ghee is always from Milk Fat .

Karah parshad the sweetest thing in gurughar,esp for kids :grinningsingh:

 

[Ishna]

Oh! I think I got caught in the translation! Thanks so much for clarifying bhaji!!!

In English, vegan means you eat no animal products (no meat, no eggs, no milk, no honey). Guru ka langar is vegetarian as it usually includes ghee and other milk products. Like that yoghurt with the cool little crispy ball thingies in it. :grinningkaur: You can see how I got confused.

 

[harmanpreet singh]

my fault sis, poor english

Dont know diff bw vegan n veggie.

 

[Ishna]

You do now my friend. eacesignkaur:

 

[ExploringSikhi]

I think some of us need to get over the notion that Sikhs are claiming Baba Farid and Kabir ji "as their own."

I would agree, if someone had actually said that.

In post #215, I was replying to Giyani Ji, who asked quite explicitly, "IF Mulsims can claim these are all "OURS"/OUR PROPHETS..even if they are JEWS..whats the problem with Farid Ji kabir Ji vis a vis SIKHS ?? I dont get it..."

In other words, if it is okay for Muslims to claim the Jewish and Christian prophets as their own, what is the problem if Sikhs do the same with Farid and Kabir?

Even then, I did not say that Sikhs DO claim them as their own, in my reply, quite clearly, I stated that "IF Sikhs WISH to do so", then they would need to meet the criteria I outlined in the post. Not that Sikhs do claim them as their own, but if Sikhs want to follow the example of the Muslims, then there are a few other things Sikhs would need to prove. It is a hypothetical statement, not a literal one. Let us not put words in each other's mouths.

And if "some of us" do not believe me, they can go back and read posts # 164 and 166, the only other posts in which I mention Farid and Kabir. I did not state that Sikhs are claiming Farid, Kabir and the others as "their own", only that Sikhs are claiming that there is the poetry of Muslim Saints within their holy book (Guru Granth Sahib). Every Sikh I have met in real life has told me that Guru Granth Sahib contains the writings of MUSLIM saints and poets. Every single one.

Me stating that Sikhs claim Farid, Kabir and co. as their own and me claiming that Sikhs claim to have Muslim works in their holy book are two completely different things, I did not do the former, I did indeed do the latter, and it has been pointed out by a few members of here that the Sufi contributors of Guru Granth Sahib would not be accepted as "real" Muslims by Muslims today, and no one objected so I am going to assume that most other SPNers would agree, in which case, Sikhs have no right to make such a claim.

There is nothing like a handful of red-herrings however thrown in the path of debate to get people off topic and pushed to the wall to defend their own beliefs.

Oh I agree, and here is a great example:

Sounds like a recently departed member ??

^^ u wot m8?

 

[ExploringSikhi]

I was born into a sikh household and have since converted to Islam.

I have a question. This pertains to one of my biggest problems with Islam.

I am going to assume that the rest of your household is still Sikh.

Please explain to me how you sleep at night holding the belief that your entire family will be burning in hell in the hereafter. The mother who gave birth to you, changed your diapers and comforted you in the middle of the night when you couldn't sleep, the father who taught you how to ride a bicycle, took you to school and provided for you, the brothers and sisters that you played with and grew up with, all of them will be tortured in a lake of fire for eternity because they are not Muslims.

And please do not try to tell me that the final decision is up to God, that not all unbelievers go to hell. I have been studying Islam for years and am willing to state that I know more about it than you do. I don't mean that as an insult, just that sidesteping the question is not going to work.

The Qur'an, while it does contain words of wisdom here and there, is, in my mind, far from being a book that can claim itself to be the literal word of God. The first time I read Surah #2, the Heifer, it was difficult to go through it with a straight face. I found it quite amusing how often I was told I was going to go to hell for being an unbeliever.

I agree with you that Islam is misunderstood, verses are often taken out of context and most people don't understand the socio-political make-up of 7th century Arabia, so they don't know why it was necessary for certain verses to have come into existence.

The Qur'an is, in a way, a timeline of Muhammad's life, because quite a lot of the verses have to do with the environment in which he lived, the different events that occured between the time of his prophethood and the time of his death.

Anyways, I am rambling, please answer my question when you get the time.

 

[spnadmin]

I think some of us need to get over the notion that Sikhs are claiming Baba Farid and Kabir ji "as their own."

Apologies for having to repeat what has already been stated! There have been however a continuing string of red-herrings regarding the connection between Baba Farid and Kabir and Sikhism.

Only those aspects of the hymns of Farid and Kabir that are consistent with the Sikh idea of one, all pervading creator, have been included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It does not follow that anyone and everyone Sikh is claiming Farid and Kabir as their own because everything else that Guru Arjan Dev rejected was not consistent with the teachings of Guru Nanak. Hence the red-herrings.

Both Farid and Kabir were part of the Bhakti movement of northern India. This movement preceded Guru Nanak and apparently had an impact on his own religious perspective.

Though a Muslim, Farid is believed to have been a Sufi. The religious perspectives of Sufis from time to time have been castigated as heresy by one or another larger sect of Islam. Such was the case during the times of Guru Sahibhan, when Sufis were martyred.

Almost nothing is known about Baba Kabir ji. That Guru Nanak possessed original copies of Farid's beej is accepted by most scholars. There are however legends that abound regarding Baba Kabir, including the life-sketch that he was the cast-away son of a Brahmin woman who was then raised by a family of Mulsim weavers, and the legend of his death when Muslims and Hindus squabbled over possession of his body. Allegedly he disappeared the night of his death, and only flowers remained on site. Muslims and Hindus thus claimed Kabir jij "as their own" if the legends are taken seriously. The Kabir Panth however is a movement which is not identified with any organized religion, in so far as Kabir ji himself in his hymns was indifferent to formal practice.

So what do Sikhs claim as "their own" in this convoluted story? We certainly do not claim Farid as our own because no one owns another person. We do claim Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as Guru Nanak's gift to humanity. We do acknowledge that the idea of tuhi nirankar, the all pervading divine nature of God, which was anticipated in the Bhakti movement.

I could continue for pages about Baba Farid, more about the legend of Kabir ji, on and on about how Guru Nanak both recognized the important ideas of the bhakti movement and then recreated bhakti in a way that is particularly Sikhi. But I will not because it is off-topic.

There is nothing like a handful of red-herrings however thrown in the path of debate to get people off topic and pushed to the wall to defend their own beliefs. This thread's topic is What do you think of Islam?

Exploring Sikhi ji

You quoted this statement in my earlier comments some pages back.

I think some of us need to get over the notion that Sikhs are claiming Baba Farid and Kabir ji "as their own."

Above is quoted the full text of my remarks, Exploring Sikhi ji. I do not see that they were addressed to anyone in particular. On the other hand, it is important to clarify the connections between Kabir ji and Farid ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and Guru Arjan Dev's intentions when he included their bani in Aad Granth. If you took umbrage, so be it. If we are in agreement, so be it.

 

[choochoochan]

I have a question. This pertains to one of my biggest problems with Islam.

I am going to assume that the rest of your household is still Sikh.

Please explain to me how you sleep at night holding the belief that your entire family will be burning in hell in the hereafter. The mother who gave birth to you, changed your diapers and comforted you in the middle of the night when you couldn't sleep, the father who taught you how to ride a bicycle, took you to school and provided for you, the brothers and sisters that you played with and grew up with, all of them will be tortured in a lake of fire for eternity because they are not Muslims.

And please do not try to tell me that the final decision is up to God, that not all unbelievers go to hell. I have been studying Islam for years and am willing to state that I know more about it than you do. I don't mean that as an insult, just that sidesteping the question is not going to work.

The Qur'an, while it does contain words of wisdom here and there, is, in my mind, far from being a book that can claim itself to be the literal word of God. The first time I read Surah #2, the Heifer, it was difficult to go through it with a straight face. I found it quite amusing how often I was told I was going to go to hell for being an unbeliever.

I agree with you that Islam is misunderstood, verses are often taken out of context and most people don't understand the socio-political make-up of 7th century Arabia, so they don't know why it was necessary for certain verses to have come into existence.

The Qur'an is, in a way, a timeline of Muhammad's life, because quite a lot of the verses have to do with the environment in which he lived, the different events that occured between the time of his prophethood and the time of his death.

Anyways, I am rambling, please answer my question when you get the time.

Ok, let me put it for you in perspective. All believers will go to hell. My family members, some are Sikhs, some are Catholics, some agnostics, some athiests, some muslims, some hindus. It's safe to say that i think all of us are going to hell. I know i am.

Not only not all unbelievers will go to hell, all believers are likely to go to hell too. Also, despite you telling me you don't want to hear that, it is in the Quran. Only God decides who goes to hell and who doesn't. I do not believe in a God which/who/whatever, sends a person's soul to hell for the one reason that he or she is an unbeliever. Then what's the point of having a book recording our good and bad deeds? You're confusing Islam with Christianity. It's a Christian doctrine that anyone who fails to accept Jesus as the Son of God who died so that his blood may cleanse Man of his sins, will never get into Heaven. There is no such belief in Islam. Just because you are a muslim, it doesn't grant you some special pass to heaven.

Also, just because i am muslim, doesn't mean i respect my parents any less because they practice a different religion from me. I can only be thankful for parents whose minds are not closed off to all other religions.

 

[AngloSikhPeace]

Yes, but Muslims don't go to hell for eternity, do they? After the sinful believers have fallen from the Bridge of Sirat the Prophet intercedes and rescues them.

 

[harmanpreet singh]

Hi anglosikhpeace ji,

As you was a muslim before sikhi, may i ask don't you want big breast virgins of heaven?:grinningsingh:

 

[AngloSikhPeace]

Hi anglosikhpeace ji,

As you was a muslim before sikhi, may i ask don't you want big breast virgins of heaven?:grinningsingh:

I had always believed that all of the wonders of Jannah are nothing compared with the sight of the Lord. I loved Dhikr, I really wasn't interested at all in the constant preaching about the horrors of Hellfire. In the end it became impossible to reconcile my faith in a loving, omnipotent and universal God with the one I was told to worship by the Hadith (and to a lesser extent the Qur'an too).

Rabiah al-Basri put it best, but unfortunately she is relatively forgotten:
O God! If I worship You for fear of Hell, burn me in Hell,
and if I worship You in hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise.
But if I worship You for Your Own sake,
grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty


Also, even among the others in our tariqah it was widely accepted that the obsession with houri was just juvenile lust. Really most of the people there were extremely devout and were totally uninterested in all the wonderful pools of milk and houses of gold and magical horses promised in Heaven. Their devotion was based on three things really:
1. Love for the Prophet
2. Fear of Hell
3. Love for Allah

 

[Luckysingh]

:grinningkaur:

Ok, let me put it for you in perspective. All believers will go to hell. My family members, some are Sikhs, some are Catholics, some agnostics, some athiests, some muslims, some hindus. It's safe to say that i think all of us are going to hell. I know i am.

I'm afraid to disappoint you, because I know that I am not going to any hell anywhere :grinningkaur:

 

[choochoochan]

Yes, but Muslims don't go to hell for eternity, do they? After the sinful believers have fallen from the Bridge of Sirat the Prophet intercedes and rescues them.

Hadith. I don't believe in them. No one intercedes but God. This is crystal clear in the Quran.

 

[choochoochan]

I had always believed that all of the wonders of Jannah are nothing compared with the sight of the Lord. I loved Dhikr, I really wasn't interested at all in the constant preaching about the horrors of Hellfire. In the end it became impossible to reconcile my faith in a loving, omnipotent and universal God with the one I was told to worship by the Hadith (and to a lesser extent the Qur'an too).

Rabiah al-Basri put it best, but unfortunately she is relatively forgotten:
O God! If I worship You for fear of Hell, burn me in Hell,
and if I worship You in hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise.
But if I worship You for Your Own sake,
grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty


Also, even among the others in our tariqah it was widely accepted that the obsession with houri was just juvenile lust. Really most of the people there were extremely devout and were totally uninterested in all the wonderful pools of milk and houses of gold and magical horses promised in Heaven. Their devotion was based on three things really:
1. Love for the Prophet
2. Fear of Hell
3. Love for Allah

I agree with this.

 

[ExploringSikhi]

Ok, let me put it for you in perspective. All believers will go to hell. My family members, some are Sikhs, some are Catholics, some agnostics, some athiests, some muslims, some hindus. It's safe to say that i think all of us are going to hell. I know i am.

This is false, and is a position rejected by every Muslim I have ever interacted with, doesn't matter which sect they were from. You are the only person I know to have ever held this belief. This is rejected by 99%+ of Muslims in the world.

Not only not all unbelievers will go to hell, all believers are likely to go to hell too. Also, despite you telling me you don't want to hear that, it is in the Quran. Only God decides who goes to hell and who doesn't.

The Qur'an says that anyone who obeys Allah and His messenger is going to go to heaven. The Qur'an says that anyone who has heard the message of Islam, and rejected it after hearing it, will go to hell.

All unbelievers are going straight to hell. Amongst the Muslims, some will go to heaven, some will go to hell, depending on how practicing they were.

I do not believe in a God which/who/whatever, sends a person's soul to hell for the one reason that he or she is an unbeliever.

Then I am afraid that you are following the wrong religion. Islam disagrees with you.

Then what's the point of having a book recording our good and bad deeds?

According to Islam, the greatest evil is to reject Allah and His messenger, you could perform every good deed in the book, but if you die a non-Muslim, the evil of your disbelief supercedes all the good that you have done. Again, I have no idea where you are getting your information from/

You're confusing Islam with Christianity. It's a Christian doctrine that anyone who fails to accept Jesus as the Son of God who died so that his blood may cleanse Man of his sins, will never get into Heaven.

I am well aware of Christian doctrine, I am from a Christian background, I was not raised to be practicing but I have knowledge of Christian philosophy. I am not mixing up the two, they both say the same thing. Christianity says if you reject Jesus as the son of God, you go to hell. Islam says if you reject Allah and His messenger, after hearing the message of Islam, you will go to hell. It is as simple as that, you are performing mental gymnastics in an attempt to make Islam compatible with your own personal beliefs, you are twisting Islamic philosophy into something you find comfortable, something you can live with, the only problem is that it no longer remains Islamic philosophy.

There is no such belief in Islam. Just because you are a muslim, it doesn't grant you some special pass to heaven.

Not all Muslims go straight to heaven, but practicing Muslims who sincerely followed Allah and His messenger do, according to Islam. Again, show me where in the Qur'an it says otherwise. Muslims certainly do have special privilege over unbelievers.

Hadith. I don't believe in them. No one intercedes but God. This is crystal clear in the Quran.

Lol this is just icing on the cake. You are a Qur'anist, which makes you a ***** in the eyes of most Muslims around the world. To reject the Sunnah of God's final prophet, and still call yourself a Muslim, would even get you killed in certain Islamic countries.

I am sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but what you are practicing is an extremely watered-down version of Islam, although even that might be a bit of an understatement. You seem to have a very contorted view of Islamic doctrines, to the point where I could make a strong argument that you are no longer within the folds of Islam.

As a result, and I say this from a neutral position, I highly doubt that you had much knowledge on Sikhism before you decided to leave it. And if you feel that you did, it was most likely false knowledge from a questionable source, just like your knowledge of Islam seems to be limited at best. You were most likely never a Sikh to begin with, just a typical girl born into a Punjabi family.

Again, I implore you to reevaluate your beliefs, because one does not become a Muslim simply by taking on the label.

 

[choochoochan]

This is false, and is a position rejected by every Muslim I have ever interacted with, doesn't matter which sect they were from. You are the only person I know to have ever held this belief. This is rejected by 99%+ of Muslims in the world.



The Qur'an says that anyone who obeys Allah and His messenger is going to go to heaven. The Qur'an says that anyone who has heard the message of Islam, and rejected it after hearing it, will go to hell.

All unbelievers are going straight to hell. Amongst the Muslims, some will go to heaven, some will go to hell, depending on how practicing they were.



Then I am afraid that you are following the wrong religion. Islam disagrees with you.



According to Islam, the greatest evil is to reject Allah and His messenger, you could perform every good deed in the book, but if you die a non-Muslim, the evil of your disbelief supercedes all the good that you have done. Again, I have no idea where you are getting your information from/



I am well aware of Christian doctrine, I am from a Christian background, I was not raised to be practicing but I have knowledge of Christian philosophy. I am not mixing up the two, they both say the same thing. Christianity says if you reject Jesus as the son of God, you go to hell. Islam says if you reject Allah and His messenger, after hearing the message of Islam, you will go to hell. It is as simple as that, you are performing mental gymnastics in an attempt to make Islam compatible with your own personal beliefs, you are twisting Islamic philosophy into something you find comfortable, something you can live with, the only problem is that it no longer remains Islamic philosophy.



Not all Muslims go straight to heaven, but practicing Muslims who sincerely followed Allah and His messenger do, according to Islam. Again, show me where in the Qur'an it says otherwise. Muslims certainly do have special privilege over unbelievers.




Lol this is just icing on the cake. You are a Qur'anist, which makes you a ***** in the eyes of most Muslims around the world. To reject the Sunnah of God's final prophet, and still call yourself a Muslim, would even get you killed in certain Islamic countries.

I am sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but what you are practicing is an extremely watered-down version of Islam, although even that might be a bit of an understatement. You seem to have a very contorted view of Islamic doctrines, to the point where I could make a strong argument that you are no longer within the folds of Islam.

As a result, and I say this from a neutral position, I highly doubt that you had much knowledge on Sikhism before you decided to leave it. And if you feel that you did, it was most likely false knowledge from a questionable source, just like your knowledge of Islam seems to be limited at best. You were most likely never a Sikh to begin with, just a typical girl born into a Punjabi family.

Again, I implore you to reevaluate your beliefs, because one does not become a Muslim simply by taking on the label.

Uh huh. You do realise that the Quran does not mention "Muslim"? And if that position were true, the people of the book would be automatically out of heaven? And hell in the Quran implies a rather purgatory place, to purge one of his sins? All believers will go to hell. Even Yusuf Estes (i'm not a fan of his at all and he is orthodox and uses Sunni dogma to the max) said this.

I implore you to move away from what the Mullahs have proclaimed Islam to be. Can you do that? If anyone who refused to believe the hadiths are kaffirs, that would include the earliest muslims . Hadiths were not in the mainstay of Islam till al-shafi came about making it an important component of Islamic jurisprudence. In fact, there is a hadith where Muhammad prohibits the recording of his actions/statements except the Quran and the Quran itself makes a prohibition by stating what other hadith does Man want besides the Quran which is the perfect hadith.

One read of ONE hadith would explain to me at least, why they aren't to be trusted. A told B that B heard C telling D that E heard Muhammad saying or doing something. WOW. If that isn't hearsay evidence at its best, i dunno what is.

Sorry, this is the Quranic rule i apply. To use critical thinking to everything before accepting anything.

I suggest you do the same. And as if i haven't heard that. Oh Kaffir! A proclamation by MAN! Shiver me timbers!:icecreamkudi: