Gurbani is for all time to be worth living, creative - ghari ghari ka laikha mangai. It is not to waste precious time sitting, parroting in a cave. Meditation is one of the futile means to waste precious moments. We might suppress our miseries momentarily by drugging our mind with meditation but when , ' ਮਾਇਆ ਗਈ ਤਬ ਰੋਵਨੁ ਲਗਤੁ ਹੈ ॥੧॥ where did the impact of meditation or smadhi goes at that time. Let us be practical.
What Does Meditation Mean In Sikhism?
ਮਾਇਆ ਗਈ ਤਬ ਰੋਵਨੁ ਲਗਤੁ ਹੈ...................exactly and aptly put Sahni Ji.
N30S1NGH
SPNer
- Mar 25, 2015
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Sikhi is middle path(not one extreme nor another) emphasis on meditation-dhian but more importantly focus on effortless/spontaneous meditation/awakening (sehaj dhian) so one does not get caught up in meditation with effort and turns that into dogma. But that does not mean meditation with effort is discouraged or rejected. In fact, for most of us with effort stages comes the stage sikhi talks sehaj dhian with ultimate stage- sehaj nirvikalpa samadhi* (spontaneous unbroken effortless thoughtless meditation)
Here is indication- by blocking mental noise in our head- conditioned mind/its thoughts. We enter the stage of just listening intuitively/awareness from that stage- one's surti(consciousness/intuitive awareness) gets drawn drawn to sehaj dhian- shabad resonance/awareness/shabad gyan-intuitive divine knowledge
ਸੁਣਿਐ ਲਾਗੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
Suṇi▫ai lāgai sahj ḏẖi▫ān.
By Listening-intuitively one spontaneously starts to meditate/contemplate deeply.
*ਜਬ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਹਜ ਸੁਭਾਇ ॥ जब निरगुन प्रभ सहज सुभाइ ॥ Jab nirgun parabẖ sahj subẖā▫e.
When God was without attributes, in absolute poise,
ਤਬ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤਿ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਿਤੁ ਠਾਇ ॥ तब सिव सकति कहहु कितु ठाइ ॥
Ŧab siv sakaṯ kahhu kiṯ ṯẖā▫e. then where was mind and where was matter - where was Shiva and Shakti?
Here is indication- by blocking mental noise in our head- conditioned mind/its thoughts. We enter the stage of just listening intuitively/awareness from that stage- one's surti(consciousness/intuitive awareness) gets drawn drawn to sehaj dhian- shabad resonance/awareness/shabad gyan-intuitive divine knowledge
ਸੁਣਿਐ ਲਾਗੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
Suṇi▫ai lāgai sahj ḏẖi▫ān.
By Listening-intuitively one spontaneously starts to meditate/contemplate deeply.
*ਜਬ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਹਜ ਸੁਭਾਇ ॥ जब निरगुन प्रभ सहज सुभाइ ॥ Jab nirgun parabẖ sahj subẖā▫e.
When God was without attributes, in absolute poise,
ਤਬ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤਿ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਿਤੁ ਠਾਇ ॥ तब सिव सकति कहहु कितु ठाइ ॥
Ŧab siv sakaṯ kahhu kiṯ ṯẖā▫e. then where was mind and where was matter - where was Shiva and Shakti?
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sounds a bit like a compromise, I always thought Sikhism was the true path, regardless of extremes
sorry I do not agree with this, firstly my emphasis is not on meditation, and secondly, that is a bit like telling a heroin addict not to get addicted. Its hard not to let it turn into dogma, very hard, because that in effect becomes your entire Sikhi, you cannot stop talking about it, or telling others to do it.
most of us, but not all of us
let me get this right, what your saying is that diving knowledge can be obtained by mental gymnastics and without study, wisdom, contemplation or effort?
N30S1NGH
SPNer
- Mar 25, 2015
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Not by mental gymanistics. What i have mentioned is just one of ways there are different ways to get to divine knowledge as there are different aspects of divine for example- devotional aspect of divine, shabad resosnance aspect of divine, wisdom-gyan aspect of divine, shakti aspect of divine etc etc.
What you mentioned regarding study, wisdom, contemplation and effort is valid but the problem its all that done is by egoic conditioned confined intellect mind not pure consciouness/intuitive intellect (surat). Mind cannot understand whats beyond mind thats why guidance is given in gurbani to mind to recnognize its root- man tu jot saroop hai apna mool painchain ||
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you talk as if you have reached this, either way you have a very good understanding of it, have you reached this?
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Sat Sri Akaal,
"Meditation" and "Sikhism"
gi-aan Dhi-aan naanak vadi-aa-ee sant tayray si-o gaal galohee. ||2||8||129||
O Nanak, spiritual wisdom, meditation and glorious greatness come from dialogue and discourse with Your Saints. ||2||8||129||
kaahoo jog kaahoo bhog kaahoo gi-aan kaahoo Dhi-aan.
Some practice Yoga, some indulge in pleasures; some live in spiritual wisdom, some live in meditation
gi-aan Dhi-aan kichh karam na jaanaa naahin nirmal karnee.
I do not know anything about spiritual wisdom, meditation or karma, and my way of life is not clean and pure
gi-aan Dhi-aan sach gahir gambheeraa.
Spiritual wisdom and meditation on the True Lord are deep and profound.
koie n jwxY qyrw cIrw ] (1034-5, mwrU dKxI, mÚ 1)
ko-ay na jaanai tayraa cheeraa.
No one knows Your expanse
sach varat santokh tirath gi-aan Dhi-aan isnaan.
Those who have truth as their fast, contentment as their sacred shrine of pilgrimage, spiritual wisdom and meditation as their cleansing bath,
sumat gi-aan Dhi-aan jin day-ay. jan daas naam Dhi-aavahi say-ay.
He bestows good sense, spiritual wisdom and meditation on His humble servants and slaves who meditate on the Naam.
gi-aan Dhi-aan saglay sabh jap tap jis har hirdai alakh abhayvaa.
All wisdom and meditation, all chanting and penance, come to one whose heart is filled with the Invisible, Inscrutable Lord.
sat santokh gi-aan Dhi-aan pi-aaray jis no nadar karay.
When the Lord casts His Glance of Grace, O Beloved, one is blessed with Truth, contentment, wisdom and meditation.
gi-aan Dhi-aan kichh karam na jaanaa saar na jaanaa tayree.
I know nothing about wisdom, meditation and good deeds; I know nothing about Your excellence.
sB qy vfw siqguru nwnku ijin kl rwKI myrI ]4]10]57] (750-4, sUhI, mÚ 5)
sabh tay vadaa satgur naanak jin kal raakhee mayree. ||4||10||57||
Guru Nanak is the greatest of all; He saved my honor in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. ||4||10||57||
Gyan (Text Knowledge/ Vocal Store)
Dhyan ( Imaginative Awareness/ Intutive Awareness) " Meditation"
from
vocal to imaginative state of "WORD"
These two abstract actions (formed out of limited human "EGO")
Through awareness of mind can not describe the Vast Nature
Biggest is this "SAT" the "TRUTH" from "GURU" without "CONTRADICTION" or "DOUBTS"
Nanak Ji says
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
"Meditation" and "Sikhism"
gi-aan Dhi-aan naanak vadi-aa-ee sant tayray si-o gaal galohee. ||2||8||129||
O Nanak, spiritual wisdom, meditation and glorious greatness come from dialogue and discourse with Your Saints. ||2||8||129||
kaahoo jog kaahoo bhog kaahoo gi-aan kaahoo Dhi-aan.
Some practice Yoga, some indulge in pleasures; some live in spiritual wisdom, some live in meditation
gi-aan Dhi-aan kichh karam na jaanaa naahin nirmal karnee.
I do not know anything about spiritual wisdom, meditation or karma, and my way of life is not clean and pure
gi-aan Dhi-aan sach gahir gambheeraa.
Spiritual wisdom and meditation on the True Lord are deep and profound.
koie n jwxY qyrw cIrw ] (1034-5, mwrU dKxI, mÚ 1)
ko-ay na jaanai tayraa cheeraa.
No one knows Your expanse
sach varat santokh tirath gi-aan Dhi-aan isnaan.
Those who have truth as their fast, contentment as their sacred shrine of pilgrimage, spiritual wisdom and meditation as their cleansing bath,
sumat gi-aan Dhi-aan jin day-ay. jan daas naam Dhi-aavahi say-ay.
He bestows good sense, spiritual wisdom and meditation on His humble servants and slaves who meditate on the Naam.
gi-aan Dhi-aan saglay sabh jap tap jis har hirdai alakh abhayvaa.
All wisdom and meditation, all chanting and penance, come to one whose heart is filled with the Invisible, Inscrutable Lord.
sat santokh gi-aan Dhi-aan pi-aaray jis no nadar karay.
When the Lord casts His Glance of Grace, O Beloved, one is blessed with Truth, contentment, wisdom and meditation.
gi-aan Dhi-aan kichh karam na jaanaa saar na jaanaa tayree.
I know nothing about wisdom, meditation and good deeds; I know nothing about Your excellence.
sB qy vfw siqguru nwnku ijin kl rwKI myrI ]4]10]57] (750-4, sUhI, mÚ 5)
sabh tay vadaa satgur naanak jin kal raakhee mayree. ||4||10||57||
Guru Nanak is the greatest of all; He saved my honor in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. ||4||10||57||
Gyan (Text Knowledge/ Vocal Store)
Dhyan ( Imaginative Awareness/ Intutive Awareness) " Meditation"
from
vocal to imaginative state of "WORD"
These two abstract actions (formed out of limited human "EGO")
Through awareness of mind can not describe the Vast Nature
Biggest is this "SAT" the "TRUTH" from "GURU" without "CONTRADICTION" or "DOUBTS"
Nanak Ji says
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
- Jan 31, 2011
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well, ok, could I ask that you wait till both legs are in and then come back and educate us? I would very much look forward to that, in the meantime any debate is moot really isn't it? Maybe when you have lived it, instead of just tasting it, your experiences would carry more weight, rather than the conjecture it is at present.
N30S1NGH
SPNer
- Mar 25, 2015
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I thought we are doing vichar or having discussion not a debate. Anyway, i thought i share my understanding,research (gurmat deep gnosis study as shared by many known personalities in the panth- sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale, bhai sahib bhai vir singh ji), experience with truth with others that's all.
- Jan 31, 2011
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no, not really, you use the style of posting that most of the meditation camp use, that of definitive, allow me to demonstrate,
What i have mentioned is just one of ways there are different ways to get to divine knowledge as there are different aspects of divine for example- devotional aspect of divine, shabad resosnance aspect of divine, wisdom-gyan aspect of divine, shakti aspect of divine etc etc.
Now I feel the above is not definitive, and I want other readers to understand that the above is not definitive, I want people who stop by to learn more about Sikhism to understand that what you are writing is not word, it is just your opinion, that is all, your opinion.
if you were sharing your understanding the above would look like this:-
What i have mentioned is what I feel to be just one of ways there are different ways to get to divine knowledge as there are different aspects of divine for example- devotional aspect of divine, shabad resosnance aspect of divine, wisdom-gyan aspect of divine, shakti aspect of divine etc etc.
so the question is, is it sharing, or proselytizing?
N30S1NGH
SPNer
- Mar 25, 2015
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I already mentioned in the past posts thats its based on my limited understanding, research and experience. I think all of us are pretty adults here so with that being kept in mind, usually people accept whatever resonates with them in their experience and ignore whatever is not. I don't feel i have to put disclaimer on each and every time i make a post as this is discussion forum. Its really none of my business on the outcome if my understanding, research and experience in sikhi resonates with people or not. I am just simply sharing whenever inner drive for sharing is there thats all.
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not all of us are pretty, or adult for that matter, but if your here to share then welcome brother
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What is meditation as per gurmat?? It seems there is something seriously wrong in understanding gurbani. Let us take a tuk, 'ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ਤੇਰੀ ॥ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਵਡਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਲ ਰਾਖੀ ਮੇਰੀ - Knowing every creature has the light of God within, that light is "gian". Remembering that when you deal with people is "dhian", thus 'gian dhian' means wisdom and attention respectively, i.e. obtaining wisdom and internalizing that wisdom. This is the real meditation. The meditation you are talking about existed way before Sikhi was created and as per gurmat that is not preet or seva or worshipping. The real preet as per gurmat is when I identify my shortcomings and am able to get rid of them up and thus emulate divine traits. ਮੇਰੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿਉ ਜਿਨਿ ਘਟੈ ॥ Those reasons which distances me from my creator have now been taken care of and ਜੀਅ ਸਟੈ have been transformed ਮੈ ਤਉ ਮੋਲਿ ਮਹਗੀ ਲਈ ਜੀਅ ਸਟੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ in exchange by dropping my most considered valuable manmat.
N30S1NGH
SPNer
- Mar 25, 2015
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According to my understanding, there are different level contextual aspect of the tuk. As such there may not seem they are in clash course with other, they can be reconciled with context, aspects of divine (bhagti, shabad, gyan aspects of divine are acceptable), spiritual stages of seeker
For eg- ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ਤੇਰੀ ॥ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਵਡਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਲ ਰਾਖੀ ਮੇਰੀ
One may perceive this tuk from devotional(bhagti) aspect of Vahiguru towards satguru nanak and surrender to him completely and in that natural deeper spiritual impluse understanding there is no need for gyan, dhyan and karam knowning as full surrender of one Ego (I)/full unconditional faith in satguru nanak will take care of rest.
Or
One may perceive this tuk as you mentioned from context you mentioned- knowing every creature has light of God within truth, if one can abide in this truth not with conditioned egoic intellectual mind but with unconditioned awakened love pure mind(unconditioned surat) and to have that realization then its fine but its difinitely not part time job. It's subject of some process.
What i was speaking earlier is process leading up to unconditioned awakened love pure mind in sehaj is not mere acquisition of spiritual state, its ceasing of mental noise of conditioned mind to have truth/knowing come in effortlessly by listening deeply intuitively in sehaj(equilibrium/spontaneously) in over time full time abidance- operate within where unconditional love(preet) of one non dual reality( one in all, all in one) is awakened or realized in pure anubhav parkash sehaj avastha nirvakailp avastha-
ਅਚਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਨਭਉ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ ਅਮਿਤੋਜਿ ਕਹਿਜੈ ॥
Absolute non dual- our undivided spirit-atma-paratma /pure awareness nature is achal- pure motionless afor (without thoughts/forna) stillness (morat)being - where there is anubhav parkash- spontaneous effortless infinite intuitive parkash(bhramgyan knowledge), unfathomable ocean of knowledge. And in that knowledge there is full spontaneous knowing/realization of truth-every creature has the light of god within in, all is god, god is all its not just mere intellectual conceptual understanding its full knowing and realization because its not coming from conditioned mind but rather unconditioned awakened love pure mind which has totally immersed in ਅਚਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਨਭਉ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ ਅਮਿਤੋਜਿ ਕਹਿਜੈ ॥
Very well said N30S1NGH Ji !
As you no doubt a learned soul, there are levels of spirituality, and an awareness prima facie the first step; slowly but surely aspiring souls will cotton-on when satguru deem appropriate and not otherwise. Sikhism spiritual is not everyone's cup of tea, for all noble things are difficult as they are rare. Cause for celebration is us coming together [SPN] to connect. God has brought us together for a reason, otherwise who'd in the right frame of their mind be surfing endlessly on Sikh Philosophy ?
As Sikhs our mission is to share the wisdom of our forefathers impartially. When and where the penny is going to drop will be in par with one's personal exertion and commitment.
Sikhism spiritual is "love n mercy" - Jin prem kiya tin he prab paya. I wish you the very best of accommodation amongst the good, beautiful and the just society of SPN.
Goodnight n Godbless
As I understand what you are trying to say is in the process we need to go for meditation by repeating a word, in order to silence the mind. But gurbani cautions me, ' ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਕੀਜੈ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਜਪੰਨਾ ॥ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਸੁਧੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨੁ ਅਪਨਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ SGGS. 485.17.Since duality originates from within Guru sahib outrightly condemns hypocrisy of dhiyan instead tells us to spend time on manh shud karna so it is the manh which needs to be transformed by getting rid of avguns and gurbani doesn't suggest purifying of the mind by repeating or focusing on a word by saying that while repeating God's name you still are practicing deception, 'ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਪਟੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਸੁਧੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਹਿ ਬਹੁਤੇਰੇ ਸੁਪਨੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ . Gurbani even does not suggest adopting unnatural means to silence the mind as mind cannot be silenced, 'ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥ or by force, 'ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਜੁਗਤੀ ਛੁਟੈ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥.
You may have noticed, despite ever accelerating trends of Fake Naam Japna Apostasy, Drugs, Alcohol, foeticide and SUICIDES are increasing thus this practice has not been fruitful. Something has to change. Thus how you react that is important and not how you act. Manh is raja and gurbani says manh manh tai mania through introspection and listening inner voice and in order to qualify to listen the inner voice the process is simply be honest, be humble, stop exploiting etc etc. In other order words gurmat's bhakti is manh saaf karna and that bin shabdai shud n hoey.
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Japjisahib Ji
I quite enjoyed your read as much as I did N30S1NGH. Both views merit credit. Gyan Yog and Karm Yog [modes of perception only] for this exercise is an interesting window through which both views find compatibility. However, in the social context with which you've raised certain social ills will require further discussion.
I'd submit my observations for perusal when I return from an social event. In the mean time I wish everyone a good day !
Gurfateh
- Nov 5, 2010
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Sat Sri Akaal,
"MEDITATION"
All vocal and literal knowledge has originated from visual/ imaginative realisation.
"Meditation" or "Dhyan" is getting focus on
"Object" ie. Objective Study along with "SUBJECT" Subjective Study
The glorified fantasy of word "MEDITATION"
was exposed to commons
ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਕੀਜੈ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਜਪੰਨਾ ॥ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਸੁਧੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨੁ ਅਪਨਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
If one is not aware of one's own mind (ਸੁਧੁ (awareness) ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨੁ(mind) ਅਪਨਾ (own)) and how mind
seeks/ stores/ process information.
what is use of meditating on subjects,
Mind will still be filled with "EGO"
And if one's mind is pure and clean
"Imagintion" or "Visualisation" of "Word" will be spontaneous and simultaneous
ਸੁਣਿਐ ਲਾਗੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਧਿਆਨੁ.
for eg say apple one get image evoked in mind
now say malus domestica check for if image is evoked
so Special Postures/ Yoga Technique/ With Eyes Closed Single Word or Text Parroting is "Pakhand"
Human Process is Same without "CONTRADICTION/ DOUBTS" through AGES
"GURU"S BANI" is without DOUBT/CONTRADICTION
"DOUBTS/CONTRADICTION" in "GURUSBANI" is with "HUMAN"
till "SEEKER" are not aware
BHUL CHUK MAAF,
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
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N30S1NGH
SPNer
- Mar 25, 2015
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Repeating a word is one of initial ways in shabad surat aspect of divine. It's not so much repeating a word is problem, its repeating a word with no receptivity like robotic parrot is a problem with no love and people making out to be all or end all is a problem. It just one of aids which helps mind more focused on shabad-resonance(naad) which takes one consciousness to higher reality as gurbani talks about one of aspect of divine and creation-everything came from shabad resosance(naad) will go back there eventually. These things are not meant to be conceptually debated but rather tried yourself. If it resonates with you thats great if it does not thats great too.
Off course one has to adapt right actions/right attributes-guns to help loosen conditioning of mind before one start doing dyan. Dyan is contemplation and abidance on ultimate nature of reality mentioned in gurbani, after a while unnatural mind conditioning will fall away.
Gurbani purifies mind as I strongly believe in gurbani is of 4th dimension-Turiya if one connects to gurbani after adapting good attributes with openness, receptivity it purifies mind but if one is approaching gurbani with their egoic mind conditioning shield around then one may try life times nothing will happen.
Dogmatic means are confined idiloized un-natural means, mind conditioning be it wrapping our head to certain ideology is un-natural. Off course you cannot still mind by un-natural means or by force. One can still mind(Achal-nature of mind as described in gurbani) by love, devotion, intuitive gyan-wsidom, openness, receptivity, jaap concentration/abidance on our real self (Man tu jot saroop hai, apna mool painchain ||)
We need to look at naam jaap as different aspects of divine, different stages in divine. For eg- doing vichar is quite higher stage where there is vichar-introspection and listening inner voice within themselves not just conceptually or intellectually with others only but via inner unconditioned intuitive consciousness because conceptual/intellectual/conditioned mind has limitations.
Listening inner voice via dyan of shabad gyan/abidance in our unconditioned consciouness(surat) is much more intimate, deeper and profound its revealing of our true nature, its much more profound than confining inner voice following -honesty be humble etc. These good actions/attributes which are supposed to be followed from very beginning before when one starts enter in sikhi.
But confining sikhi to only following basic human attributes such as honesty, be humble does not do full justice of great gurbani revelation of ultimate nature of all of us... confining anything its unnatural its conditioning itself. In fact, we do not need to try so hard with our egoic conditioning to adapt honest, and be humble. In deeper exploration of sikhi, one finds right actions/speech rises effortlessly risen automatically at right time/right place from directly ultimate divine nature thats beauty of our universal intuitive intelligence its does not rely on conditioned response from conditioned mind which is confined/always have agenda to self egoic preservation. I am not against right actions/right speech- honesty, be humble, stop exploitations. The main question is from absolute point of view- whos is doing? If egoic conditioning does it, since its confined its seems dogmatic/unnatural but if its natural spontaneous response from our true nature then its much more profound and deepening as our true nature does not have much attachment to outcome for eg- love,humility, compassion, honesty risen from our real nature its just as is without any agenda/strategizing/attachment by confined conditioned mind. Our true nature just loves, is embodiment of compassion thats all, its unconditioned its NOT subject of conditioned circumstances.
It's been long discussion. I will retire from this thread now. All i would say, ultimately these deep spiritual discussions are best left for one own experience/deep exploration. Conceptual discussion has limitations. Conceptual mind/conditioned mind simply cannot understand whats beyond conceptual mind/conditioned mind.
Enjoy.
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