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What Is Worship? What Is Not?

Seeker9

Cleverness is not wisdom
SPNer
May 2, 2010
652
980
UK
Dear Seeker3 Ji

I can understand your frustration with organised religions that are steeped in dogma and ritual but Sikhism is not one of them

I read a comment on another unrelated thread, (think it was by Findingmyway Ji to give her due credit), but she basically said something along the lines of judge a religion by its core teachings and not the people who claim to follow it

So if you see anyone indulging in questionable ritualistic practice, do not dismiss an entire path on the basis of that.

Instead, I think it would be more helpful if we could focus on what aspects of what SGGS has to teach us you have issues with
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
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Jan 31, 2011
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Ambersariaji, Tejwantji,

Between the two of you gentlemen, you encapsulate 90% of my thinking of sikhi, however, I feel you have been quite harsh with seeker3k, below is not my answers, but my understanding of what he is asking/stating





It is not my intension to insult any one here. I only say as I see it.
An idol is thing that is made from non living matter. Like Hindus make stone or clay or metal. There idols are not living thing As intelligent people knows that there were no shiva,brahma,vishnu. Yet people are worshiping those idols. Any thing that is not living is idol. (how can we not agree with this?)
Is granth living? For millions it is. But book can not talk book can not speak. Book can not move from one place to other. If people want to believe that book is living guru then that is there thing. But it is blind faith started by unknown being. We Sikhs just wanted to do what the Hindus were and are doing. Every day there is new thing being added in the ritual of worship. People tell me that their things are getting done by ardas so why you complaing? Have we lost sense that by getting bhai ji to do the ardas our problems will be solved? We created our own problem why bring god into it.(I do not think this is a question about respect to the SGGS, I think it is more about the many many sikhs that bypass the knowledge and information containing within, and concentrate on the ceremony and ritual that surrounds it. We want a bit of pomp and circumstance, rather than content and substance, are we not all dismayed by the amount of Hinduism that has slowly been creeping in for years?)

None of the Guru said any where that he is guru. It is only people called them guru. Why?(I take this at the dismay at Sikhs who worship and make the Gurus deities instead of concentrating on the message)
Example: There was a doctor who could cure any ailment. He died if we go to his grave and pray and show respect to that grave will he cure us? In the same way why are we prey to gurus who has been dead for long time? Some one wrote that he respect his mom/dad by touching their feet. Is it not true that insult mom/dad if we don’t do what mom/dad tells us to do and we don’t do that? The real respect is to do what the guru told us to do. Touching the feet of mom/dad is Hindu custom not Sikhs. I have not seen Sikhs touching their mom/dad feet. Those who are doing is because they have seen Hindus doing it.(This is speaking out against those that worship the Gurus, and those that touch the feet of Babas, again, I cannot disagree with the sentiments here)
Every religion claim that their holy book is written or spoke by god. Yet no one of those religions try to feed food or put glass of water by the bed at night. No one put their holy books in AC room and put blanket on it. Only the Hindu and Sikhs are doing it.
(I think here, again, this is in reference to those that would make the SGGS human, a magical deity to be worshiped and elevated, rather than a source of fantastic knowledge)
The bani in granth are written in gurmukhi. What if one can’t not read gurmukhi and he cant not hear he is def. Is that person is doomed?(this translates simply to can everyone be saved?, the answer is yes)
God gave us logic for some reason. It is to use and make life better. Jut for one minute thing as a neutral person. Are we not doing the things what guru tsaid in granth not to do.(ok, thing should be think, then it makes a bit more sense, another protestation at the amount of tradition and ritual seeping in)
We are doing all those things what the Hindus are doing. But we call them but different name (he's not wrong you know)
Religion is teaching hatred not respect.(Sikhism as a religion now encapsulates many different types, they are not hugely known for getting on together..., religion per se is responsible for much of the war in the world today, everyone thinks theirs is better, fair comment)

I am all for respect but don’t force it on others and see if it makes sense.

There is only one rule of humanity; DO NO HARM TO ANY LIFE

So Uncleji's is my interpretation anywhere near the mark? or have I been eating too much dung lately? lol
 

seeker3k

SPNer
May 24, 2008
316
241
canada
I am not against Sikhs as most people may think. Guru Nanak did his best to make us free of rituals but we are still into it and maybe more then the Hindus. I am not against bani nor granth. Bani is great teaching granth is full of knowledge. It is not to be worshiped. It is to understand and live by it

No where in the granth it is written what ritual should be done to please God.

We praise some one because we need some thing from him. Can be please God by doing the rituals. Guru Nanak thought we can not. God is not a person that we can please and get what we want. I am a Sikh too but by reading my thoughts many may think I am anti Sikh. It is their choice as to what they believ
 

Spades

SPNer
Aug 12, 2010
32
34
What is worship?

Doing something that makes one reflect upon either a higher power or some sort of spiritual essence.

What is idol worship?

When a worshiper project's his/her reflection onto a inanimate object or a non-human living creature (snakes, cows, trees, etc).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not against Sikhs as most people may think. Guru Nanak did his best to make us free of rituals but we are still into it and maybe more then the Hindus. I am not against bani nor granth. Bani is great teaching granth is full of knowledge. It is not to be worshiped. It is to understand and live by it
No where in the granth it is written what ritual should be done to please God.
We praise some one because we need some thing from him. Can be please God by doing the rituals. Guru Nanak thought we can not. God is not a person that we can please and get what we want. I am a Sikh too but by reading my thoughts many may think I am anti Sikh. It is their choice as to what they believ


If you are a Sikh then why do you call yourself an Agnostic instead of a Sikh? That's a rather peculiar thing for a Sikh to do. You may have already answered this question but I haven't been around in a while.
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,384
5,690
I thought this forum was to discus the issue not personal attack.

Forgive them they don’t know what they are doing
seeker3k ji I state things as I understand them and as they are to me. But there is no intent of vengeance or personal attack.

I am human, so would like your comments on my posts (if there is perceived attack) so that I can better myself.

Thank you.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
5,024
7,183
Henderson, NV.
I thought this forum was to discus the issue not personal attack.

Forgive them they don’t know what they are doing

Seeker3k ji,

Guru Fateh.

I beg to differ with you. No one has attacked you personally about your harsh, blunt questioning. I have known you for many years and I understand and appreciate your quest for learning.

It seems to me that you are upset at yourself for not finding the answers within and we are of no help to make you understand what you are asking for no matter how much we try.

Your post had so many different questions some related to Sikhi and others not in a random manner and I am sorry to know that you do not like the answers but I would urge you to share with us what you do not like in the answers given and counter them with your way of thinking about Sikhi so we can all learn from this experience. This forum is created for this sole purpose.

Tell me in specific what you felt insulted with from my posts so I can correct the course or explain it in different ways.

As I did mention before,I have known you for many years and we have always interacted and I have always tried in these years to try to understand you and give the answers to the best of my knowledge.

Let's learn from each other via interaction by expressing our opinions. I wish I had the magic wand to take your inner frustrations away.

Hope to hear from you,

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
5,024
7,183
Henderson, NV.
Ambersariaji, Tejwantji,

Between the two of you gentlemen, you encapsulate 90% of my thinking of sikhi, however, I feel you have been quite harsh with seeker3k, below is not my answers, but my understanding of what he is asking/stating
.

Originally Posted by seeker3k
It is not my intension to insult any one here. I only say as I see it.
An idol is thing that is made from non living matter. Like Hindus make stone or clay or metal. There idols are not living thing As intelligent people knows that there were no shiva,brahma,vishnu. Yet people are worshiping those idols. Any thing that is not living is idol. (how can we not agree with this?)
Is granth living? For millions it is. But book can not talk book can not speak. Book can not move from one place to other. If people want to believe that book is living guru then that is there thing. But it is blind faith started by unknown being. We Sikhs just wanted to do what the Hindus were and are doing. Every day there is new thing being added in the ritual of worship. People tell me that their things are getting done by ardas so why you complaing? Have we lost sense that by getting bhai ji to do the ardas our problems will be solved? We created our own problem why bring god into it.(I do not think this is a question about respect to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I think it is more about the many many sikhs that bypass the knowledge and information containing within, and concentrate on the ceremony and ritual that surrounds it. We want a bit of pomp and circumstance, rather than content and substance, are we not all dismayed by the amount of Hinduism that has slowly been creeping in for years?)

None of the Guru said any where that he is guru. It is only people called them guru. Why?(I take this at the dismay at Sikhs who worship and make the Gurus deities instead of concentrating on the message)
Example: There was a doctor who could cure any ailment. He died if we go to his grave and pray and show respect to that grave will he cure us? In the same way why are we prey to gurus who has been dead for long time? Some one wrote that he respect his mom/dad by touching their feet. Is it not true that insult mom/dad if we don’t do what mom/dad tells us to do and we don’t do that? The real respect is to do what the guru told us to do. Touching the feet of mom/dad is Hindu custom not Sikhs. I have not seen Sikhs touching their mom/dad feet. Those who are doing is because they have seen Hindus doing it.(This is speaking out against those that worship the Gurus, and those that touch the feet of Babas, again, I cannot disagree with the sentiments here)
Every religion claim that their holy book is written or spoke by god. Yet no one of those religions try to feed food or put glass of water by the bed at night. No one put their holy books in AC room and put blanket on it. Only the Hindu and Sikhs are doing it.
(I think here, again, this is in reference to those that would make the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji human, a magical deity to be worshiped and elevated, rather than a source of fantastic knowledge)
The bani in granth are written in gurmukhi. What if one can’t not read gurmukhi and he cant not hear he is def. Is that person is doomed?(this translates simply to can everyone be saved?, the answer is yes)
God gave us logic for some reason. It is to use and make life better. Jut for one minute thing as a neutral person. Are we not doing the things what guru tsaid in granth not to do.(ok, thing should be think, then it makes a bit more sense, another protestation at the amount of tradition and ritual seeping in)
We are doing all those things what the Hindus are doing. But we call them but different name (he's not wrong you know)
Religion is teaching hatred not respect.(Sikhism as a religion now encapsulates many different types, they are not hugely known for getting on together..., religion per se is responsible for much of the war in the world today, everyone thinks theirs is better, fair comment)

I am all for respect but don’t force it on others and see if it makes sense.

There is only one rule of humanity; DO NO HARM TO ANY LIFE
So Uncleji's is my interpretation anywhere near the mark? or have I been eating too much dung lately? lol

Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

I beg to differ with your opinion about myself being harsh to Seeker3k ji but as they say that disagreements are essential in any learning process.

Each response of yours to the questions raised by Seeker3k ji deserves a different thread.

So, I would request you to start each thread at a time so we can discuss what you mean by your responses on each subject you have mentioned in your post.

Will wait for the threads so all of us can enhance our understanding towards humanity.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
May 31, 2011
1,005
1,095
In the Self
Spners sometimes it is not what we say but how we say it ,if the poster is young reply like he is your son ,if older like he is your father,let Sikhs have sharp swords but never let us speak sharply.It is very hard to strike a balance though ,I think everyone has acted with good intentions yet still somehow Seeker Ji feels attacked,that is because perception is everything.
 
Oct 21, 2009
451
895
India
A very thought provoking question.
Agreed seeker ji, Life is all about leading good moral life.
Without going into semantics, I would construe worship as doing or trying to be doing acts and deeds in daily life as if He is close to us and watching us . One should also try to practice. Honesty, humility,truthfulness, forgiveness and compassion in daily life [pillars or attributes] , these are required for taking up this exercise. Gurbani tells us many more things.

Our Hindu Brothers do worship idols.
 
Last edited:

Seeker9

Cleverness is not wisdom
SPNer
May 2, 2010
652
980
UK
I thought this forum was to discus the issue not personal attack.

Forgive them they don’t know what they are doing

Dear Seeker3 Ji

I think if you are more specific then you will get some answers

If however you make less specific comments that can be construed to be disrespectful to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or to Sikhism itself, then you can expect a sharper response

Such a response may become necessary in the interests of setting the record straight and is entirely natural

So as I asked before, let's have a debate around specific issues..

Do people, including some Sikhs indulge in idolatry?
Yes I daresay they do

Do people, including some Sikhs indulge in ritualistic practices in the misguided belief it is an aspect of worship or respect?
Yes again there probably are people like that

Is this a direct fault of Sikhism?
NO

Is this a direct fault of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?
ABSOLUTELY NOT

So let us agree then, if we can, that we do not condone idolatry or ritualisitic practices in any faith and we are eager to learn from Scripture in the hope we can make some sense of our lives and better ourselves

Does that sound reasonable?
 
Last edited:

Navdeep88

Writer
SPNer
Dec 22, 2009
442
655
What about Bhagat Dhanna Ji, he connected with the Divine by "worshipping" a rock and is mentioned in SGGS. The pandit who directed him, who focused more on ritual than honest prayer, did not. Maybe its about the intent of your heart and your devotion... and less about the method of prayer.

I don't think SGGS could be reduced to an idol by any means. Its not just the physical form (a book) but what's written in it. If we ever happen to forget, stray wutever, SGGS describes perfectly what our intent should be to the divine. Gurbani is guidance, something we can digest spiritually and mentally. Its whats written inside SGGS, not so much the physical form that we "worship".
 

Navdeep88

Writer
SPNer
Dec 22, 2009
442
655
I agree with you Sinner Ji, that's why i put worship in quotations b/c I wasn't quite sure how to approach it or have full knowledge of the term. But considering idol worship was mentioned, I thought mentioning Bhagat Dhanna Ji was relevant... that it was more his Faith, and not the rock/idol itself.
 

Spades

SPNer
Aug 12, 2010
32
34
Spades Ji For an adherent of evil I don't think that response was evil enough :interestedmunda:

I'm just warming up Mr. Sinner

I thought this forum was to discus the issue not personal attack.

Forgive them they don’t know what they are doing

You are in a minority opinion so expect to get some sort of heat coming your way. I'm in the minority opinion on here (non-Sikh) as well but I fully know that I will a lot of opposition.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
May 31, 2011
1,005
1,095
In the Self
Spades Veera Sikhs are a minority almost everywhere so they should be able relate to those who are in the minority here,(well that is the theory any way).I did not mean to encourage you ,it was tongue in cheek, as I was excited by your unorthodox adherence!
 

Spades

SPNer
Aug 12, 2010
32
34
Spades Veera Sikhs are a minority almost everywhere so they should be able relate to those who are in the minority here,(well that is the theory any way).

You would be surprised at how fast a minority group can turn around and oppress another group once they become a majority (Puritans in the Mass. Bay Colony for example).

I did not mean to encourage you ,it was tongue in cheek, as I was excited by your unorthodox adherence!
Too late...

Expect a Death Star attack by next week. =)
 
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