This is a good question, and it has been discussed in our section on Bhagats at length. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar-project/23874-bhagats-sri-guru-granth-sahib-ji.html
What Is Worship? What Is Not?
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This is a good question, and it has been discussed in our section on Bhagats at length. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar-project/23874-bhagats-sri-guru-granth-sahib-ji.html
gursikhi.jeevan
SPNer
Worship varies from person to person. Worshipping is remembering God's name again and again. As Sikh we are suppose to say God's name again and again. As for Idol worshipping, it doesn't exist in Sikhism. For Sikhs, the guru is Shabad. We can remember God's name by Shabad.
Thank you spnadmin Ji,
I will have a look through it, actually its one of the topics I've been curious about for a while so thanks for the direction... I love interfaith dialogue, and its awesome the amount of openness our Gurus held to people of all faiths, held equality at the core.
I will have a look through it, actually its one of the topics I've been curious about for a while so thanks for the direction... I love interfaith dialogue, and its awesome the amount of openness our Gurus held to people of all faiths, held equality at the core.
IT seems to me that many people here are into rituals. That’s why they get upset when I question the rituals.
ADMIN NOTE: I was trying to clean up the post and remove the office tags but unfortunately there was a glitch and the post was lost. Seeker3k ji, please can you repost your comments? I apologise profusely. In future it is better to use a programme such as word pad or notepad as Microsoft Word leaves tags which make reading difficult. Findingmyway.
<!--?"urn:
Tejwant ji, I am not upset on my self I have the answers clear. There is no doubts in my mind. I am totally free of useless of rituals. It looks that brahman’s influence still haunt them. Many people feel empty if they don’t do the hindu rituals. How did u figure it out that I am upset at my self?
I am only trying to wake people up from Hindu brain washing. Here and in real life where ever I meet people who r under the hindu influence.
Many people still believe in the gurus sakhis. The sakhis were written after 1850. They are not all true-->
ADMIN NOTE: I was trying to clean up the post and remove the office tags but unfortunately there was a glitch and the post was lost. Seeker3k ji, please can you repost your comments? I apologise profusely. In future it is better to use a programme such as word pad or notepad as Microsoft Word leaves tags which make reading difficult. Findingmyway.
<!--?"urn:
Tejwant ji, I am not upset on my self I have the answers clear. There is no doubts in my mind. I am totally free of useless of rituals. It looks that brahman’s influence still haunt them. Many people feel empty if they don’t do the hindu rituals. How did u figure it out that I am upset at my self?
I am only trying to wake people up from Hindu brain washing. Here and in real life where ever I meet people who r under the hindu influence.
Many people still believe in the gurus sakhis. The sakhis were written after 1850. They are not all true-->
Last edited by a moderator:
- May 9, 2006
- 3,261
- 5,192
Seeker3k, what has given you the impression people here are into rituals?
People can look at other people and want a piece of their fun. People can get scared when they are not of firm faith and in their frightened state they can reach out to that which they shouldn't (rituals to keep bad things away). They can also feel empty leaving behind rituals from their childhood, or from their former religion. And I guess it can be tricky coming from a ritual-rich environment to Sikhi which is fairly devoid of worshipful expressions. I know I personally had some issues coming from Paganism which is full of rituals, to Sikhi. I didn't want to just sit down and read my Japji Sahib. I wanted to light candles and incense and 'interact' with my spirituality. I don't know if others have had a similar experience.
People can look at other people and want a piece of their fun. People can get scared when they are not of firm faith and in their frightened state they can reach out to that which they shouldn't (rituals to keep bad things away). They can also feel empty leaving behind rituals from their childhood, or from their former religion. And I guess it can be tricky coming from a ritual-rich environment to Sikhi which is fairly devoid of worshipful expressions. I know I personally had some issues coming from Paganism which is full of rituals, to Sikhi. I didn't want to just sit down and read my Japji Sahib. I wanted to light candles and incense and 'interact' with my spirituality. I don't know if others have had a similar experience.
Seeker Ji I disagree that Hindu rituals are to blame, our Guru gave his life for that religion that now gets so much blame by the biased,anything wrong with Sikhi today and we blame Hinduism for creeping in?thats like blaming jews for problems in the Catholic Church.
Spades Ji Now... I... am... the ...master
Spades Ji Now... I... am... the ...master
- Jan 31, 2011
- 5,769
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Unclejios,
I just cant help fighting for the underdog now and then, and it gets me in trouble constantly!
thank you both for your kind replies
kaurhug
I just cant help fighting for the underdog now and then, and it gets me in trouble constantly!
thank you both for your kind replies
kaurhug
- Aug 28, 2010
- 1,514
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Harry Haller ji.
If we mean worship as PUJAA then there are several quotes in SGGS wherein you get the status of Pujaa .
There are quotes in SGGS making strong suggestion for Pujaa.Therefore the concept of Pujaa should be understood accordingly then I think this can make clear what is worship or what is not.
We get quickly disturbed when there is question of rituals.We can understand ritual as any practice visible or invisible being undertaken for the connection with Sati Guru is nothing but a ritual.
Prakash.S.Bagga
If we mean worship as PUJAA then there are several quotes in SGGS wherein you get the status of Pujaa .
There are quotes in SGGS making strong suggestion for Pujaa.Therefore the concept of Pujaa should be understood accordingly then I think this can make clear what is worship or what is not.
We get quickly disturbed when there is question of rituals.We can understand ritual as any practice visible or invisible being undertaken for the connection with Sati Guru is nothing but a ritual.
Prakash.S.Bagga
- Dec 21, 2010
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Prakash S. Bagga ji thanks for your post.
Please quote one specific shabad "promoting pooja" and we can all review and learn and go from there. No one liners and generalizations please we are already suffering enough through this thread due to that. Please use the following to post the complete shabad,
srigranth.org
If you don't like the translation please clarify with your understanding to enhance understanding. If you need help posting let me know I will be happy to do so.
Sat Sri Akal.
Harry ji,
Guru Fateh.
I beg to differ with you again. Thanks to Guru Nanak, there is no underdog. We are all equal unlike other religions whose dogmas have the skills to create underdogs and hence keep them lassoed.
The proof of above is in the following:
1. No clergy in Sikhi which means we are all messengers of the message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.
2. Anyone can participate in the Gurdwaras or at home congregations and do Shabad Vichaar.
3. Anyone can read and write about the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, which is still forbidden in my religions.
4. The concept of Pangat and Sangat by breaking bread in the form of Langar with anyone of any hue,creed, faith and from any social class, whether a Prince or a Pauper shows that there is no underdog.
5. Anyone can visit our Gurdwaras, once again from any faith. That is why we have 4 doors at our sanctum sanctorum-Haramander Sahib.
The above shows that we are all equal as Sikhs. No Sikh is an underdog.
Tejwant Singh
- Jan 31, 2011
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Unclejios,
underdog-Harry's definition-someone on the receiving end of a good kicking, which is not deserved. Sorry gentlemen, blame my wife, she taught me never to walk by and do nothing, or worse, join in!
Let us be honest, your both intelligent, articulate, and a wee bit angry, and I could not understand why the points raised were treated with disdain, however, you all clearly know each other, so I am going home to complain to wife that she is not always right about these things!
peacesignkaur
underdog-Harry's definition-someone on the receiving end of a good kicking, which is not deserved. Sorry gentlemen, blame my wife, she taught me never to walk by and do nothing, or worse, join in!
Let us be honest, your both intelligent, articulate, and a wee bit angry, and I could not understand why the points raised were treated with disdain, however, you all clearly know each other, so I am going home to complain to wife that she is not always right about these things!
peacesignkaur
Harry ji,
Guru Fateh.
Yes, let's be honest. Where do your accusations of anger and disdain come from?
Can you please specify them in my posts to Seeker3k ji? I would appreciate that.
Thanks
Tejwant Singh
Guru Fateh.
Yes, let's be honest. Where do your accusations of anger and disdain come from?
Can you please specify them in my posts to Seeker3k ji? I would appreciate that.
Thanks
Tejwant Singh
- Dec 21, 2010
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Harry Haller ji and Tejwant Singh ji please clarify if I am part of this accusation/defence or I am OK. Specifically Harry Haller ji, I was not sure if you were addressing one uncle or two lolmundahug Otherwise I am staying quiet as I believe great amount of information with sufficient clarity is already here for one to learn if one chooses to.
Sat Sri Akal.
Sat Sri Akal.
Harry Veera even a guilty man is provided a defence attorney he still has to try to persuade others in the court ,Sikhs are historically better in defence than in prosecution. Worship is Worship when it is done with a clean mind and a pure intention.Much love to all !Ambarsaria Ji to clarify you are neither because you are the judge!:redturban:
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Prakash s bagga ji
I humbly but adamantly request that you provide full shabads with a complete vichaar rather than showing a line here and there that seems to say that SGGS supports puja. That is the impression that your comments create.
I humbly but adamantly request that you provide full shabads with a complete vichaar rather than showing a line here and there that seems to say that SGGS supports puja. That is the impression that your comments create.
On other matters, please discuss issues, not personalities. Let's not attribute feelings and motives which accomplishes little. If someone asks questions that one finds irksome, one can always ask for a clarification. Thanks
No, I think they get upset when what you post suggests rituals are accepted practice and endorsed by Scripture
You know it requires a lot of discipline to just sit and meditate. I guess it is easier for people to indulge in rituals. Quite sad. I wonder how many of these people indulging in rituals actually practice their daily mediation and prayers...
I don't think Hinduism is entirely to blame. I think my above theory about taking an easy option also applies
This is an area where I have no knowledge. Grateful if you could explain more
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BhagatSingh
SPNer
- Apr 24, 2006
- 2,921
- 1,656
With the Grace of the Supreme Personal and Abstract Force Being Energy thinga-ma-jig 
One may not even know how ritualistic one's culture is unless someone from another culture points it out. Of course, those who point out how ritualistic others are, often don't realize their own rituals. They view others in bad light for what they don't recignize in themselves, not in their community, not yet, I mean in their individual ritualistic self.
(meditate)
Religions without rituals are lame, they cannot be run. Human society without ritual cannot be run. Our whole society no matter how modern we think it is, just as ritualistic as it ever was.
(meditate)
Atheists are just as ritualistic as religious folk. They have their own ceremonies.
Whenever someone is awarded everyone gathers together and gives cup-like trophies, or turbans, etc.
All the ceremonies in marriage
Wearing a turban everyday/ Styling your hair daily
Going to school daily
Taking a shower daily
Brushing you teeth daily
Parties/ gathering on forums to argue... err discuss things
...to mention a few. E.g. It is not necessary to shower everyday. "Those damn foreigners waste too much water cleaning themselves. F****** it up for the rest of us." - An outsider (meditate)
These are rather pointless things. Or are they?
The meanings underlying the rituals seem to change quite a bit and differ from person to person, but ritual ultimately remains, with slight modifications over time. The amount of ritual is not decreasing at all. I would argue it does not need to, and to fight it, is like banging your head against a brick wall. Stop and see its importance instead.
Rituals are OK. What is not OK is that most people go through life, totally unconscious of any experience. They are focused on past events and future plannings without any value for what is happening in this moment. Rituals are often performed without any real intention or any real devotion. Instead they should be done with complete focus, just like any other task.
(meditate)
Worship in wordly sphere takes the form of ritual. Worship and it's associated rituals must be done with Shardha (the spiritual sphere), which is total attentiveness (in Bhagati, Sharda is the attentiveness arising from fear and love states, like how one feels towards their parents "Toon mat pita hum barak tere" You are my mother and father, and i am your child.). Without Shardha, worship is like brushing your teeth. With Shardha brushing your teeth becomes worship.
(meditate)
The highest form of Shardha is seeing all moments and content of life as sacred. But to get to this place one starts by seeing certain things as sacred like (for a Sikh) Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the 10 Gurus (devotion comes into play) then moving on to see the sacred in everything else (a greater devotion for God).
What does it mean to see something as sacred? When something is sacred, there is an increased alertness towards it taht arises out of both love and fear together. For example, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, one's turban, Nishan Sahib, your parents.
We often do things to cultivate this alertness. E.g. bowing down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Nishan sahib and parents/elders, not letting the turban fall on the floor or worst yet, in the toilet, always placing the turban, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Nishan Sahib on a high platform. Some people go even further and hold onto cloth pieces from coverings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Nishan ahib. All of these acts are the beginnings of cultivating of Shardha, and they all happen to be rituals.
Shardha is the very basis of every human doing, and thus of worhip and rituals. An act without Shardha leads only to suffering. An act without concentration and devotion leads only to suffering. Just think about your day job, most people neither concentrate nor are mentally devoted to what they do. They suffer constantly.
(meditate)
Ritual is the communication of Shardha to others and to yourself. Combining Ritual and Shardha we get Worship.
They are. Human societies cannot function without ritual. Saints and Gurus of the past recognized the place of rituals in religion and allowed them to continue. Through rituals you can bring communities together. They are also important as a path to God. e.g. worshipping a diety together in a large gathering with plates with oil lamps and sweets, music and hymns, gathering together in prayer, in readings, bowing down, serving of parshad afterwards, gathering 5 times a day. These rituals hold us together.
One may not even know how ritualistic one's culture is unless someone from another culture points it out. Of course, those who point out how ritualistic others are, often don't realize their own rituals. They view others in bad light for what they don't recignize in themselves, not in their community, not yet, I mean in their individual ritualistic self.
(meditate)
Religions without rituals are lame, they cannot be run. Human society without ritual cannot be run. Our whole society no matter how modern we think it is, just as ritualistic as it ever was.
(meditate)
Atheists are just as ritualistic as religious folk. They have their own ceremonies.
Whenever someone is awarded everyone gathers together and gives cup-like trophies, or turbans, etc.
All the ceremonies in marriage
Wearing a turban everyday/ Styling your hair daily
Going to school daily
Taking a shower daily
Brushing you teeth daily
Parties/ gathering on forums to argue... err discuss things
...to mention a few. E.g. It is not necessary to shower everyday. "Those damn foreigners waste too much water cleaning themselves. F****** it up for the rest of us." - An outsider (meditate)
These are rather pointless things. Or are they?
The meanings underlying the rituals seem to change quite a bit and differ from person to person, but ritual ultimately remains, with slight modifications over time. The amount of ritual is not decreasing at all. I would argue it does not need to, and to fight it, is like banging your head against a brick wall. Stop and see its importance instead.
Rituals are OK. What is not OK is that most people go through life, totally unconscious of any experience. They are focused on past events and future plannings without any value for what is happening in this moment. Rituals are often performed without any real intention or any real devotion. Instead they should be done with complete focus, just like any other task.
(meditate)
Worship in wordly sphere takes the form of ritual. Worship and it's associated rituals must be done with Shardha (the spiritual sphere), which is total attentiveness (in Bhagati, Sharda is the attentiveness arising from fear and love states, like how one feels towards their parents "Toon mat pita hum barak tere" You are my mother and father, and i am your child.). Without Shardha, worship is like brushing your teeth. With Shardha brushing your teeth becomes worship.
(meditate)
Devotion is part of Shardha. Keep this in mind as you read on.
The highest form of Shardha is seeing all moments and content of life as sacred. But to get to this place one starts by seeing certain things as sacred like (for a Sikh) Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the 10 Gurus (devotion comes into play) then moving on to see the sacred in everything else (a greater devotion for God).
What does it mean to see something as sacred? When something is sacred, there is an increased alertness towards it taht arises out of both love and fear together. For example, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, one's turban, Nishan Sahib, your parents.
We often do things to cultivate this alertness. E.g. bowing down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Nishan sahib and parents/elders, not letting the turban fall on the floor or worst yet, in the toilet, always placing the turban, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Nishan Sahib on a high platform. Some people go even further and hold onto cloth pieces from coverings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Nishan ahib. All of these acts are the beginnings of cultivating of Shardha, and they all happen to be rituals.
Shardha is the very basis of every human doing, and thus of worhip and rituals. An act without Shardha leads only to suffering. An act without concentration and devotion leads only to suffering. Just think about your day job, most people neither concentrate nor are mentally devoted to what they do. They suffer constantly.
(meditate)
Ritual is the communication of Shardha to others and to yourself. Combining Ritual and Shardha we get Worship.
Seeker9ji,
Guru Fateh.
I am just curious to know where did you find the post by Seeker3k ji which you have responded to? I have seen the whole thread and could not find it.
Would you be kind enough to PM me the whole post if you have it anywhere? I would appreciate it.
Thanks & regards
Tejwant Singh
Tejwant Singh Ji
IT seems to me that many people here are into rituals. That’s why they get upset when I question the rituals.
ADMIN NOTE: I was trying to clean up the post and remove the office tags but unfortunately there was a glitch and the post was lost. Seeker3k ji, please can you repost your comments? I apologise profusely. In future it is better to use a programme such as word pad or notepad as Microsoft Word leaves tags which make reading difficult. Findingmyway.
<!--?"urn:
Tejwant ji, I am not upset on my self I have the answers clear. There is no doubts in my mind. I am totally free of useless of rituals. It looks that brahman’s influence still haunt them. Many people feel empty if they don’t do the hindu rituals. How did u figure it out that I am upset at my self?
I am only trying to wake people up from Hindu brain washing. Here and in real life where ever I meet people who r under the hindu influence.
Many people still believe in the gurus sakhis. The sakhis were written after 1850. They are not all true-->
Last edited by a moderator:
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