What Is Worship? What Is Not?

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Seeker Ji Nice question may I postulate that doing No Harm might be worship,what is not worship might be worship,Idol worship might be not idol worship.

Udasi Masketeer Ji does this then still apply or should I amend it?

 

[spnadmin]

I too share Tejwant ji's question. I spent nearly an hour searching this thread from stem to stern. Thanks for the information in advance.

 

[Seeker9]

Dear SPNAdmin Ji and Tejwant Ji

I have sent you the text as requested. For the benefit of other SPNers, all I did was click on "quote post" intending to reply to the remaining visible line but instead, I could see additional text

I pasted it into a text editor and removed the HTML tags and then pasted it back into the post box formatting it there

Hope that makes sense!

 

[Seeker9]

With the Grace of the Supreme Personal and Abstract Force Being Energy thinga-ma-jig


They are. Human societies cannot function without ritual. Saints and Gurus of the past recognized the place of rituals in religion and allowed them to continue. Through rituals you can bring communities together. They are also important as a path to God. e.g. worshipping a diety together in a large gathering with plates with oil lamps and sweets, music and hymns, gathering together in prayer, in readings, bowing down, serving of parshad afterwards, gathering 5 times a day. These rituals hold us together.

One may not even know how ritualistic one's culture is unless someone from another culture points it out. Of course, those who point out how ritualistic others are, often don't realize their own rituals. They view others in bad light for what they don't recignize in themselves, not in their community, not yet, I mean in their individual ritualistic self.

(meditate)

Religions without rituals are lame, they cannot be run. Human society without ritual cannot be run. Our whole society no matter how modern we think it is, just as ritualistic as it ever was.

(meditate)


Atheists are just as ritualistic as religious folk. They have their own ceremonies.

Whenever someone is awarded everyone gathers together and gives cup-like trophies, or turbans, etc.
All the ceremonies in marriage
Wearing a turban everyday/ Styling your hair daily
Going to school daily
Taking a shower daily
Brushing you teeth daily
Parties/ gathering on forums to argue... err discuss things

...to mention a few. E.g. It is not necessary to shower everyday. "Those damn foreigners waste too much water cleaning themselves. F****** it up for the rest of us." - An outsider (meditate)

These are rather pointless things. Or are they?

The meanings underlying the rituals seem to change quite a bit and differ from person to person, but ritual ultimately remains, with slight modifications over time. The amount of ritual is not decreasing at all. I would argue it does not need to, and to fight it, is like banging your head against a brick wall. Stop and see its importance instead.

Rituals are OK. What is not OK is that most people go through life, totally unconscious of any experience. They are focused on past events and future plannings without any value for what is happening in this moment. Rituals are often performed without any real intention or any real devotion. Instead they should be done with complete focus, just like any other task.

(meditate)

Worship in wordly sphere takes the form of ritual. Worship and it's associated rituals must be done with Shardha (the spiritual sphere), which is total attentiveness (in Bhagati, Sharda is the attentiveness arising from fear and love states, like how one feels towards their parents "Toon mat pita hum barak tere" You are my mother and father, and i am your child.). Without Shardha, worship is like brushing your teeth. With Shardha brushing your teeth becomes worship.

(meditate)


Devotion is part of Shardha. Keep this in mind as you read on.

The highest form of Shardha is seeing all moments and content of life as sacred. But to get to this place one starts by seeing certain things as sacred like (for a Sikh) Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the 10 Gurus (devotion comes into play) then moving on to see the sacred in everything else (a greater devotion for God).
What does it mean to see something as sacred? When something is sacred, there is an increased alertness towards it taht arises out of both love and fear together. For example, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, one's turban, Nishan Sahib, your parents.
We often do things to cultivate this alertness. E.g. bowing down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Nishan sahib and parents/elders, not letting the turban fall on the floor or worst yet, in the toilet, always placing the turban, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Nishan Sahib on a high platform. Some people go even further and hold onto cloth pieces from coverings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Nishan ahib. All of these acts are the beginnings of cultivating of Shardha, and they all happen to be rituals.

Shardha is the very basis of every human doing, and thus of worhip and rituals. An act without Shardha leads only to suffering. An act without concentration and devotion leads only to suffering. Just think about your day job, most people neither concentrate nor are mentally devoted to what they do. They suffer constantly.

(meditate)

Ritual is the communication of Shardha to others and to yourself. Combining Ritual and Shardha we get Worship.

Dear Bhagat Singh Ji

In a general context, I don't dispute anything you have written

However, in the context of my (limited) understanding of Sikhism, I would have to conclude that ritual is not necessary. This is what attracts me to Sikhism in the first place

With ritual there is always the danger that you think you've done your bit and something good when in reality, you have done nothing constructive in spiritual terms

Take for example the Catholic confessional and then the Priest absolves the sinner providing they say the required number of "Hail Mary's" commensurate with the sin!

Job done?
I don't think so!

I have no time for ritual and it will not be a feature of anything I do moving forward. But that is just my personal view and approach

 

[Harry Haller]

Bhagatsinghji,

I have looked hard at my life, and am struggling to find any ritual, there is respect, but no ritual, maybe we should start a new post, how much of our life is ritual :interestedkudi:

 

[Seeker9]

Harry Veera Quote
Rituals of various kinds are a feature of almost all known human societies, past or present. They include not only the various worship rites and sacraments of organized religions and cults, but also the rites of passage of certain societies, atonement and purification rites, oaths of allegiance, dedication ceremonies, coronations and presidential inaugurations, marriages and funerals, school "rush" traditions and graduations, club meetings, sports events, Halloween parties, veterans parades, Christmas shopping and more. Many activities that are ostensibly performed for concrete purposes, such as jury trials, execution of criminals, and scientific symposia, are loaded with purely symbolic actions prescribed by regulations or tradition, and thus partly ritualistic in nature. Even common actions like hand-shaking and saying hello may be termed rituals

Dear Sinner Ji

I don't think anyone denies the existence of ritual

My point is it is not a necessity in order to follow a spiritual path

I think the theme of this thread and Seeker3k Ji's intention was to point out that needless rituals do exist and are of no value

 

[seeker3k]

There is no need to repost. He read it and posted that seeker9 posted it.
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I never blame Hindus. Hindus worship idols and they are proud of it. We are doing every thing what we condemn Hindus for. And we don’t admit that we are doing useless rituals. We call it respect. Then Hindus also giving respect to their idols.
I have seen many people here condemn Hindus and others are religions of what they are doing. We should look at our self what we are doing.
We were all Hindus first till Gobind Sing gave us separate identity. Even then we were Hindus till recently when Khalsas wanted the Kkalistan. “There is saying of it walk like duck, look like duck speak like duck, then is sure is duck”.
<o> </o>
Here in <?xml::ffice:smarttags" /><st1lace w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Canada</st1:country-region> many so called Sikhs when they buy car they take the car to gurdwara for matha tekena. Ask bhai ji to do the ardas that their car,truck be safe don’t brake down. There are many rituals going on it will take whole book to write them. Bhai ji do the ardas because it makes him money. It is bhai ji making new rituals for the money. It is not the pundit telling Sikhs to do idol worship.
2 biggest useless rituals that bother me and people like me. It is the pictures of gurus. These are face pictures they are not any gurus pictures. Now some is going to condemn me for this too when they knows very well these pictures are not real. I will become bad evil man here.
Every religion has and need rituals to function. But build faith on sand will not last. Our kids and people of other religions ask questions on this. What we should tell them?
<o> </o>
The Jews and Muslim don’t have any picture of their prophets. How are they flushing?
<o> </o>
Ishna ji, doing rituals of lighting the candles when she read japji. Having lit candle is romantic it is ok. Ishna ji sorry for suggestion some thing. If one light ghee jot at the time of reading japji or any other book, or to do meditation. Burning candle will burn oxygen whis will be bad for brain. Any burning will burn oxygen at least by burnibg ghee will be better for brain. It may be better then candles. When ghee is burning it produce negative ions. Negative make one relax. It is good for the body and brain.
<o> </o>
I know it very well that people are going to change their ways.
Nanak was also kicked out of villages and was stoned for telling the truth.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Seeker9 ji,
An unenlightened one does a ritual because he expects something in return, he expects a result. An enlightened person does a ritual with shardha, expecting no results.

Sikhism has a huge social component (rituals, social service, politics, military), in addition to its spiritual component. The rituals in Sikhism are quite necessary for its longevity e.g. the Khalsa initiation is a good example of this, also the wearing of a turban, a young man's first turban tying ceremony, (and many more) all these things are quite necessary for Sikhism to exist.

Rituals also physically prepare you for spirituality by making you do things with your body. The brain enters into the spiritual state more easily this way. When you do something physically, it becomes a reality for your brain.

An exmaple scenario for a religious ritual:
"I am doing meditation now by doing X, Y and Z."
X, Y, Z are always present during meditation
*brain switches to meditation patterns when it recognizes X, Y and Z*

Many people use incense when they meditate. Raagis sing kirtan. Dervishes twirl about. Yogis apply colour to their bodies. So on and so forth.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Seeker 3k [/QUOTE][FONT=border=]The Jews and Muslim ...... How are they flushing?[/FONT][FONT=border=][FONT=border=]Ishna ji, doing rituals of lighting the candles when she read japji..... [/FONT]Guru Nanak was also kicked out of villages and was stoned for telling the truth. [/QUOTE]

That is easy, Muslims flush with the left, Jews with the right,Isna might be putting herself in the right mindset,as there is a spiritual aspect to Gurmukhi( in that it is addressed to our spirit )It does not mean she is to twirling around in the room or fainting but we must transcend to the Self atleast or we are just 'readers, not understanders of the truth.
Brother never compare yourself to the Guru ,even if there is a tiny element of truth in what you say ,the Guru is the Ocean of Truth.
[/FONT]

 

[Seeker9]

Seeker9 ji,
An unenlightened one does a ritual because he expects something in return, he expects a result. An enlightened person does a ritual with shardha, expecting no results.

Sikhism has a huge social component (rituals, social service, politics, military), in addition to its spiritual component. The rituals in Sikhism are quite necessary for its longevity e.g. the Khalsa initiation is a good example of this, also the wearing of a turban, a young man's first turban tying ceremony, (and many more) all these things are quite necessary for Sikhism to exist.

Rituals also physically prepare you for spirituality by making you do things with your body. The brain enters into the spiritual state more easily this way. When you do something physically, it becomes a reality for your brain.

An exmaple scenario for a religious ritual:
"I am doing meditation now by doing X, Y and Z."
X, Y, Z are always present during meditation
*brain switches to meditation patterns when it recognizes X, Y and Z*

Many people use incense when they meditate. Raagis sing kirtan. Dervishes twirl about. Yogis apply colour to their bodies. So on and so forth.

Dear Bhagat Ji

I appreciate what you have written

Yes as you have noted, religion does make a significant contribution to culture and if we look at India, then yes it does have a long-standing
tradition of ceremonies based on honour and respect for family and deities etc

But I choose to make a distinction between the cultural aspects and the spiritual aspects

Personally, I see no real value in ritual and so stand by my view it is unneccesary

But this is just my personal view and if others find it helpful and constructive, then more power to them

As long as they do not imbue the ritual with such significance that it obscures their vision

We have some examples below..e.g seeking blessings at the Gurdwara for a new car etc

Completely irrelevant, valueless, pointless and blatant superstition

 

[Harry Haller]

In my own view, any action that has no consequence is a ritual, so brushing your teeth, shaking someones hand, they all have consequences, if lighting a candle, or, indeed anything, assists in meditation or prayer, then that is a personal choice, and also has a consequence, the consequences all being positive.

Some rituals however, have no consequences at all, an example, I was at someones house the other day, I was tired, and I wanted to go home, I finally managed to get everyone in the car, and was just starting the engine up, when my wife sneezed. We were not allowed to leave before we had all eaten something sweet to counter the sneeze. This is ritual, this is superstition, crossing fingers, touching wood, blessing cars, I would go as far as to say that paying a Bhai to do an Akhand Path, for a new house, is also bordering on ritual, if you feel that strongly, do it yourself with your family, rather than making it happen with your money, so you can reap the blessing but not actually have to do anything other than sit back and enjoy all the balleh balleh.

I spent most of the night thinking about any ritual that has entered my life, I am quite a creature of habit, but habit is not ritual, every morning I do the same thing, I open the shop at 7am, I sit down, and eat a cheese sandwich and read 'the sun' whilst browsing this site. Then I eat a twix, and gulp down a cold can of relentless, write a few posts, and then get on with building computers. This is not a ritual, I get a fantastic amount of pleasure from this, so what makes it different to say lighting a candle during prayers, nothing, we do these things because they bring us pleasure, because it is the icing on the cake, but what makes it different to a 10 minute delay thanks to a sneeze, fear, fear that we are not appeasing spirits, or gods, or demons, ghosts, fear that if we do not do certain things, then bad things will happen to us, now this is the sort of ritual that I think we are all against , clearly there are habits, which can be pleasurable, and ritual, which is pointless, it is these rituals borne of fear that need to be eradicated

 

[Seeker9]

It does not mean she is to twirling around in the room or fainting

Dear Sinner Ji

That made me laugh out loud and people stare at me!

Thanks very much

:grinningsingh:

 

[Harry Haller]

people are always laughing out loud and staring at me, you get used to it...............

 

[Ishna]

I'm terribly sorry to have given the impression that I pray with candles! I was trying to say it was difficult for me to go from a religion where I had an altar and when I prayed, I would interact with items on my altar, to Sikhi where all I had to do was sit down and read/sing/contemplate the shabad. I only lit a candle once, 4 years ago, and didn't feel the need to do it again. The actions I perform now are highly personal to me and I do it as an expression of love when the mood strikes me, I do not feel the need to do it every time, in fact I stopped when I felt thoughts like 'oohh, I didn't do xyz, whoops' because that is the line for me, I do my 'rituals' on my terms to benefit me and not because I have to.

A personal confession: from the age of 8 until around 20 I suffered with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. For those who don't know, OCD involves a recurring thought, usually a nasty thought (the obsession), followed by an intense feeling of doom and gloom (the compulsion), which doesn't go away until you perform whatever it is the compulsion drives you to do to negate the nasty thought.

In my particular case most of my obsessions/compulsions revolved around fear and superstition. If I didn't do xyz, something bad would happen. As mentioned above, I began to feel that same inner pressure when I wouldn't do my little paath rituals. Warning bells, neon lights, smoke alarms, military police, all went off in my mind when that started to happen recently! And I put an end to it quick smart.

So I like to think I know a little bit about rituals.

I thank Guruji from the bottom of my tiny little heart that I was never part of a religion that demanded rituals from childhood. That's like pre-programmed OCD and I can appreciate how hard that hold is to break later in life. And people with OCD KNOW they're being irrational, they KNOW their thoughts are stupid and there is no logic or truth in them, but the FEELING you get inside your body is so strong and won't let go. It feels like the world will END if you don't do whatever it is you've gotta do. People raised with it may have no idea that there is no truth in their superstitions. Just the obsession and the compulsion for them. At least some people with OCD know their fears aren't usually founded in reality.

I am so immensely thankful to Guruji, for my clinical exposure to Sikhi without the (sorry guys) Indian community, and for the Guru releasing me of the fear and anxiety of worrying about that which I really have no control over.

So THAT is the kind of ritual we should be avoiding, strictly. Any kind of compulsion to perform ardaas or rituals to ward off bad things is STUPID and cruel as everything will happen according to hukam anyway. We should pray to be content with hukam.

So, in summary, a ritual that does not have strings attached is a nice thing. A ritual with compulsion attached is insidious, unnecessary and psychologically dangerous.

And I share Seeker3k's concern that these practice are sometimes seen within Sikhi (they are not part of Sikhi in any way but do creep in from VARIOUS sources). They must not be passed on as part of Sikhi! (they should not be passed on at all.) I feel sorry for the people who feel so superstitious that they need these things to feel safe and content in their world.

 

[Seeker9]

2 biggest useless rituals that bother me and people like me. It is the pictures of gurus. These are face pictures they are not any gurus pictures. Now some is going to condemn me for this too when they knows very well these pictures are not real. I will become bad evil man here.

I would suggest it is not the picture but what you do with it. I purchased a made to order painting of Guru Nanak Ji, with Bhai Bala Ji and Bhai Mardana Ji and it has pride of place in my dining room and in my house

I also have a gold leaf print of Krishna doing a dance and a print of Dali's "Christ of St. John of the Cross" I also have a couple of Buddha head sculptures including one in my car

I do not worship/address either

I just like religious art

 

[Seeker9]

And I share Seeker3k's concern that these practice are sometimes seen within Sikhi (they are not part of Sikhi in any way but do creep in from VARIOUS sources). They must not be passed on as part of Sikhi! (they should not be passed on at all.) I feel sorry for the people who feel so superstitious that they need these things to feel safe and content in their world

Dear Ishna Ji

Thanks for your candour and very well said

Sums up my view perfectly

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for your candor and honesty. You are one wonderful Sikh.

 

[spnadmin]

What concerns me is the idea that "Sikhs" as some undifferentiated blob of 25 million are engaging in practices that are not "Sikh." have already called attention to this: that some of us confuse what some Sikhs say or believe or do with what all "Sikhs say, believe, do." It simply is an unfair generalization, a form of stereotyping. Any object be it a kara or a picture of Guru Nanak, any gesture be it mata tek or rising up in ardaas, can be turned into a form of idolatry, or ritual practice. Everything depends on what is in the mind of the person involved. What I am saying is not rocket science. Worship in and of itself is not idolatry or ritual. All depends again on the intentions of persons involved. So discussion can only be frustrating if various members have to apologize for, or explain why, they do what they do, over and over again.


No one should have to justify their actions. It is important to avoid sensationalizing an issue. We are here to discuss an issue. And discussion of issues is frustrated when stereotypes rule. Should be no secret to any of us that there are many religious paths that discourage idolatry and meaningless ritual; yet many adherents engage in idol worship and meaningless ritual nonetheless. This is true in Christianity, and even in Islam, though both religions reject worship of idols. Let's try to avoid the idea that "Sikhs" are off base because "Sikhs worship idolatrously, or worship at all, etc etc." "Some Sikhs" are off base. Not all Sikhs.

 

[Chinu]

Personal Understanding

What is worship?

To love.

What is idol worship?

To love - their love.

What is not worship?

Not to love.

What is not idol worship?

Not to love - their love

"Satshriakal"