Who Is The Present Guru Of The Sikhs?

[Archived_Member5]

Gurus and true Saint are disinclined to run or flee when overcome by armies greater in number and arms. They are deeply loathe to squander lives of good men as potential sacrifice in the cause of warfare, as when victorious the sacrifice seems too large a burden to carry for the freedom gained, I think. We know with benefit of historical hindsight that it would be preferable for fifty men to die and we have as leader and Father a Guru to Guide and protect the word of truth and sanctity of cultural purity. Yet oftentimes it so transpires most good men will not happily or easily run from a stronghold when under threat by virtue of faith, and by nature of faith they hold belief in good triumphing over evil.

We must study the situation subjectively and with wisdom. Badal or any politico is answerable to the Lok Saba n Delhi. The government although striving to be judicious in its dealing has a negative slant toward Punjab. Badal has therefore dual purposes and loyalties, primarily to his overseers, the government and then to the people of Punjab. If you tackle any outstanding dilemma and there is much to lay blame for, it must be with an emotionally detached hardened heart. What is past weeps biter tears of blood for past injuries. It is an unhealed wound if stoked, arouses the sleeping lions of Punjab. We must desist. With diligent and a conscientious application of tactile diplomacy and composed speech the state can be freed, and gain the independence vital to its cultural and economic prosperity and future. Constant faith and determination will win the freedom and liberation Punjabis all secretly yearn for. Honour, virtue and devout belief is far greater in power than angered words and casting of blame upon those themselves at the mercy of other demagogues.

 

[stocksmgm]

Sat shri akal,
thank you singh ji for ur back up . atleast someone has a similar thought
Bhagat ji, can u tell me the reason why the presence of both SGGS and panj pyare is required for any ceremony why cant it be done only by having SGGS and not panj pyare .:down:

I just don't understand the point here. It is simple and clear that SGGS is our Guru and Khalsa is way of life. Teachings of Guru lead you to be khalsa if followed in perfection. Panj Pyare were never nominated as Guru rather they were introduced as follower of the Guru whose way of life was khalas (Pure) . Saint Ji I will answer your question, Panj Pyare are required simply because when you are going to start a project whether of leading a pure life by following the teachings of your Guru (Amrit Pan) or laying a foundation of a building that will carry on the teaching of our Guru, you will need to have it started by the five elected individuals who you sincerely believe that they are khalsa (free of any impurities) and are in full compliance with the teachings of our Guru. So in conclusion, you will take Khalsa as a follower but not a Guru. I more agree with Bhagat than you Saint Ji.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Honoring five Sikhs to order like Guru was Tenth Master’s foresightedness. His aim to eliminate one man’s power was astounding at that time. To put that practice in action today, one must know who five pyaras are. To understand the fact behind purity of Panj pyaras, let’s take an example from Guru Sahib’s own facing opposition and his ignoring of numbers of Sikhs. When Guru Sahib was surrounded by enemy forces and with false oaths, the enemy was trying to get Khalsa out of Hill refuge, about forty Sikhs got together( their hope was that Guru ji would listen to them being in high numbers) and went to Guru and said” We should leave, there is not enough food, we will die of hunger, they are swearing in the name of religion” Guru ji said” No, its their clever tactics”
Then forty Sikhs threatened to leave. Guru ji asked them to leave by terminating their alliance to him. And daringly they did. Now question rises here, if five Sikhs become panj pyaras and give order, shouldn’t we analyze their purpose, sincerity? Shouldn’t we find out who are they actually, who is behind them to order? Guru ji showed this to us with a practical. Today if by merely with closing eyes, we follow just panj pyaras, we would be serving Badal Family instead of Khalsa. Article posted by aad0002 ji are eye opening, it comes down the purity and sincerity of the five panj pyaras to qualify to issue orders to Khalsa. This core tenet of Khalsa has been heavily exploited by one family in Punjab. All those who are serving this family are to my foot; I am bowing to Sree Guru Granth Sahib ji to guide me in such times of corruption. Am I disobeying Sree Guru Gobind Singh ji or following his insight he offered through practical?

Now question rises here, if five Sikhs become panj pyaras and give order, shouldn’t we analyze their purpose, sincerity?

PK70 ji you make a valid point here and it would be clear if the Panj Pyare have made a valid decision because it wouldn't contradict Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and if it did then it would be clear they do not represent Guru ji. Now another question arises who would declare if it is valid or not, this would be done by the 5 Takhats.

What the Badal family has done at Amritsar is a complete disgrace. But this is what most people will not like about my post. Who are to blame for letting this happen? It us the Sikhs, who sit back and do nothing about it. All we do is present articles and say look this is what is happening at Akal Takhat. Some might be at fault more than others, but this does not make a difference we are one unit where is our stand. Is our comfortable homes in the west that important to us that we let Sikhi come to what it is today? When are we going to make a stand and say the CURRENT SGPC DOES NOT REPRESENT SIKHI FOR THEY DO NOT FOLLOW SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI.

I say lets put all the issues aside and make a stand! Whose with me on this?

 

[Archived_Member4]

I just don't understand the point here. It is simple and clear that SGGS is our Guru and Khalsa is way of life. Teachings of Guru lead you to be khalsa if followed in perfection. Panj Pyare were never nominated as Guru rather they were introduced as follower of the Guru whose way of life was khalas (Pure) . Saint Ji I will answer your question, Panj Pyare are required simply because when you are going to start a project whether of leading a pure life by following the teachings of your Guru (Amrit Pan) or laying a foundation of a building that will carry on the teaching of our Guru, you will need to have it started by the five elected individuals who you sincerely believe that they are khalsa (free of any impurities) and are in full compliance with the teachings of our Guru. So in conclusion, you will take Khalsa as a follower but not a Guru. I more agree with Bhagat than you Saint Ji.

Please read post 38 and 40 for a better understanding.

 

[Saint Soldier]

Sat shri akal,
I think an example can clear all the doubts :yes:. when Guru nanak and his sikhs were fighting with mughals in chamkaur the khalsa ordered the Guru to leave at the last times when the Guru wanted to enter the battle.and what the Guru did? he followed the orders given by the khalsa doesnt this shows that Guru sahib followed the khalsa and this is what the khalsa was made for :yes:.

To those who believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj and the khalsa are equal as Guru. To those who believe that Sri Gobind Singh Patasha intended that his khalsa be seen as equal to the Granth Sahib, I say this:

Do you then behold your Guru? Is it a reflection of yourself? Who of them is Guru? Who of them is khalsa?

addoo2 i never compared khalsa with Guru ganth sahib . what im saying is we can follow Guru granth sahib under the Guidance of khalsa panth.:yes:

thank you once again aman ji for bringing up my question here:yes:

 

[spnadmin]

Sat shri akal,
I think an example can clear all the doubts :yes:. when Guru nanak and his sikhs were fighting with mughals in chamkaur the khalsa ordered the Guru to leave at the last times when the Guru wanted to enter the battle.and what the Guru did? he followed the orders given by the khalsa doesnt this shows that Guru sahib followed the khalsa and this is what the khalsa was made for :yes:.

addoo2 i never compared khalsa with Guru ganth sahib . what im saying is we can follow Guru granth sahib under the Guidance of khalsa panth.:yes:

thank you once again aman ji for bringing up my question here:yes:

Gee! Saint_Soldier ji

Thanks for your reply -- so straight, so concise, so clear . Yes, Aman ji once again shows he can spot a topic for rich dialog :}{}{}: But I have more to say about the verses that you posted.

The basics for me revolve around pk70's observations, as follow: it comes down the purity and sincerity of the five panj pyaras to qualify to issue orders to Khalsa. This core tenet of Khalsa has been heavily exploited by one family in Punjab. All those who are serving this family are to my foot; I am bowing to Sree Guru Granth Sahib ji to guide me in such times of corruption. Am I disobeying Sree Guru Gobind Singh ji or following his insight he offered through practical?

Because then the question becomes twofold. Who is khalsa? Who is pure? These make the verses of Guru Gobind Singh much more meaningful to me.

We remember that these words below were said the day before he died.

The Khalsa is my own special form
Within the Khalsa I’ll ever abide,
The Khalsa is the life of my life;
The Khalsa is the breath of my breath.
The Khalsa is my worshipful lord.
The Khalsa is my saintly kinght.
--Guru Nanak(the 10th)


Guru Gobind Singh was leaving his Sikhs without a human guru to guide them in a time of great turmoil and suffering. So he was pointing them in a direction -- to find moral and spiritual guidance within the panth, to find dharma within the khalsa itself. Before then Sri Guru had written in many places about his concern for following the path of dharma, by way of teaching us to think carefully about who is pure and who is not pure, what is pure and what is not pure.

ਪਾਪ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਤ ਪ੍ਰਾਤ ਘਨੇ ॥ ਜਨ ਦੋਖਨ ਕੇ ਤਰ ਸੁੱਧ ਬਨੇ ॥ ਜਗ ਛੋਰ ਭਜਾ ਗਤ ਧਰਮਨ ਕੀ ॥ ਸੁ ਜਹਾਂ ਤਹਾਂ ਪਾਪ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਚੁਰੀ ॥੯੫॥
Paap karai nit praat ghane|| Jan dokhan ke tar suddh bane|| Jag chhor bhajaa gat dharman kee|| Su jahaan paap kriaa prachuree||95||

They will commit new sins and talking about the blemishes of others, they themselves will remain pure; the followers of the religions, will forsake the world and run away and there will be the propagation of the sinful activities here and there.95.


ਸੰਗ ਲਏ ਫਿਰੈ ਪਾਪਨ ਹੀ ॥ ਤਜ ਭਾਜ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਜਗ ਜਾਪਨ ਕੀ ॥ ਦਿਵ ਪਿਤ੍ਰਨ ਪਾਵਕ ਮਾਨਹ ਗੇ ॥ ਸਭ ਆਪਨ ਤੇ ਘਟਿ ਜਾਨਹ ਗੇ ॥੯੬॥
Sang lae phirai paapan hee|| Taj bhaaj kriaa jag jaapan ki|| Divpitran paavak maanah ge|| Sabh aapan te ghattee jaanah ge||96||

All of them will roam, committing sinful acts and the activites of recitation and worship will flee from the world; they will not have any faith in gods and manes and will consider all others inferior to them.96.

Dasam Granth, panna 1144

The verse posted by Saint_Soldier ji (I think recorded by Narinder Singh, I am not certain) needs to be examined in more depth. Forgive me.

 

[spnadmin]

And he said this,

Padmaavati Chhand||

PADMAVATI STANZA


ਦੇਖੀਅਤ ਸਭ ਪਾਪੀ ਨਹ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਪੀ ਤਦਪ ਮਹਾ ਰਿਸ ਠਾਨੈਂ ॥ ਅਤਿ ਬਿਭਚਾਰੀ ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰੀਅ ਭਾਰੀ ਦੇਵ ਪਿਤਰ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਨੈ ॥
Dekheeat sabh paapi nah Har(i) jaapi tadap mahaa ris thaanain|| At(i) bibhchaari par treea bhaari dev pitar nahi maanai||

The sinners will be seen on all sides, there will be no meditation on the Lord; even then there will be great jealousy with one another; those who go to the wives of others and commit sinful acts will have no beliefs in gods and manes;

ਤਦਪ ਮਹਾ ਬਰ ਕਹਤ ਧਰਮਧਰ ਪਾਪ ਕਰਮ ਅਧਿਕਾਰੀ ॥ ਧ੍ਰਿਗ ਧ੍ਰਿਗ ਸਭ ਆਖੈ ਮੁਖ ਪਰ ਨਹੀ ਭਾਖੈ ਦੇਹ ਪ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟ ਚੜਿ ਗਾਰੀ ॥੯੨॥
Tadap mahaa bar kahat dharamdhar paap karam adhikaaree|| Dhrig dhrig sabh aakhai mukh par nahibhaakhai deh prisht cha?(i) gaaree||92||

Even then the sinners will remain religious leader; none will talk on the face, but slander others at the back.92.

Also on Panna 1144

 

[spnadmin]

He warned that no dharma would be left in the world,

ਨਵ ਨਵ ਕਰਮੰ ॥ ਬਢਿ ਗਇਓ ਭਰਮੰ ॥ ਸਭ ਜਗ ਪਾਪੀ ॥ ਕਹੂੰ ਨ ਜਾਪੀ ॥੯੧॥
Nav nav karamang|| Ba?h(i) gaio bharamang|| Sabh jah paapi|| Kahoon na jaapee||91||

Because of the new types of Karmas, the illusions will increase; the whole world will become sinful and no person repeating the Name or performing austerities, will be left in the world.91.

This was written well before the end of his life. But was Guru Gobind Singh urging his khasla to virtue and praying for his khalsa, even as he was celebrating them October 20, 1708?

 

[Astroboy]

What do you understand by Khalsa ?

Now to anyone that say we don't need to take Amrit then why is so much importants given to the Khalsa Panth.

What did Guru Gobind Singh ji mean when he said this?

The Khalsa is my own special form
Within the Khalsa I’ll ever abide,
The Khalsa is the life of my life;
The Khalsa is the breath of my breath.
The Khalsa is my worshipful lord.
The Khalsa is my saintly kinght.
--Guru Nanak(the 10th)

 

[Hari Atma]

The Siri Guru Granth Sahib is the Guru of the Sikhs.

 

[Astroboy]

A Sikh is a disciple; and an ideal or perfect disciple is called a Khalsa, which means the pure one. We may bear the Sikh label and wear the outer symbols of Sikhism, but if we have not become a Khalsa... then? The whole foundation of Sikhism was formed so that Sikhs should become Khalsas--and the Khalsa, what is He? When the full effulgent Light is lighted within, then know He is the Khalsa. And, what status is He then given? Khalsa is my True Form; In the Khalsa do I reside; Khalsa is my brave Satguru. He is a type of Personality Who will never leave those under His care. Now, then, up to the end will He remain; Such a Person my mind desires. A Hindu lights the lamp and rings the bell, but he who lights the Inner Light is a true Hindu. And, a true Muslim? He who sees the Noor of Khuda, the Light of God, and hears the Kalam-i-Khadim, the Inner Sound. A true Christian is he who sees the Light of God and hears the Word, the Word of God. Those who have reached this stage are all one in Him.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Satwant ji thank you for that.

I had/have no doubt who the Guru is of the Sikhs. Was just simply pointing it out to Bhagat Singh that Guru Gobind Singh Sahib jis Hukam was just that and the same way he made it a hukam every Sikh must take amrit and

ok

if Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is not present then the Panj Pyare take on the role as decision making as Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji said, When the Panj Pyare are present take it as I am present before you.

Where is this coming from??

Also to the person that says I only listen to the next Guru or as they put it "new Guru"(Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji). This is comletely barbaric statement.
Why does new Guru bother you so much?

In Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it says Bani is Guru and Guru is the bani, simply telling us there is no difference from the previous Guru (Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji) and the Current eternal Guru (Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji)

First of all there is a physical difference don't forget. This physical difference makes "Bani is Guru and Guru is the bani" a metaphor. Secondly, if SGGS is the eternal wisdom of Gurus then khalsa is definitely not their ETERNAL wisdom.

Therefore, you should not have any problem accepting just SGGS because it is the jyot of the human gurus. There is no difference between SGGS and Gurus therefore, let's all follow SGGS!!

; the Hukams by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji of taking amrit is just as important.

Our present Guru does not say.

 

[spnadmin]

A Sikh is a disciple; and an ideal or perfect disciple is called a Khalsa, which means the pure one. We may bear the Sikh label and wear the outer symbols of Sikhism, but if we have not become a Khalsa... then? The whole foundation of Sikhism was formed so that Sikhs should become Khalsas--and the Khalsa, what is He? When the full effulgent Light is lighted within, then know He is the Khalsa. And, what status is He then given? Khalsa is my True Form; In the Khalsa do I reside; Khalsa is my brave Satguru. He is a type of Personality Who will never leave those under His care. Now, then, up to the end will He remain; Such a Person my mind desires. A Hindu lights the lamp and rings the bell, but he who lights the Inner Light is a true Hindu. And, a true Muslim? He who sees the Noor of Khuda, the Light of God, and hears the Kalam-i-Khadim, the Inner Sound. A true Christian is he who sees the Light of God and hears the Word, the Word of God. Those who have reached this stage are all one in Him.

NamJap ji

This is kind of where my own thinking is going on the topic. I never really had to think about this issue very often or so hard until the thread was started. Your insight here is most appreciated -- because to be khalsa in the sense that you describe means that seeing the light of God and becoming cleansed from within is rare but is found everywhere. Guru Fateh!

 

[BhagatSingh]

NamJap ji

This is kind of where my own thinking is going on the topic. I never really had to think about this issue very often or so hard until the thread was started. Your insight here is most appreciated -- because to be khalsa in the sense that you describe means that seeing the light of God and becoming cleansed from within is rare but is found everywhere. Guru Fateh!

Agreed! Khalsa is not limited to just Sikhs. I read somewhere that Guru Gobind Singh considered some Muslims to be Khalsa.

 

[spnadmin]

Bhagat ji

If you could remember where you read that I would be very grateful. It would be a good reference to have on file. Thank you

 

[BhagatSingh]

Bhagat ji

If you could remember where you read that I would be very grateful. It would be a good reference to have on file. Thank you

Here Antonia Ji,
The Evolution of the Word "Khalsa". | SikhNet

 

[spnadmin]

Great!

 

[Archived_Member5]

The Khalsa cannot lead the Supreme Consciousness, this is a false misconception. It is an ideology giving birth to the farce that is democracy, a reign of demagoguery, the present main cause of wickedness and division in the world, as races, religions and nation’s war and battle for dominance, battling with an enemy within and without.

Waheguru Parmatma is Supreme and Absolute truth, to suggest or imply that this absolute clear and concise truth be led by the Khalsa or people is perfectly ludicrous. At this time there is no Godhood or league of Lordship, the assembly of the wise in the world. What has democracy, both eastern and western generated but despicable division, catastrophic chaos and confusion.

It may be written the Guru sought or followed advice of his Panth as to what path to take. Would firmly question any such delusion and rather cities as a misappropriation of self exaltation, a missive given as devices to future subversives to use against the Gurus guidance and truth.

The greatest part of spiritual enlightenment, peace and truth is to primarily submit to the will of the Supreme Being without full comprehension or understanding of its nature, will and ultimate force. It is when man gains asceticism he ceases to question and be critical and merges with Universal Consciousness.

 

[Saint Soldier]

Sat shri akal,
addoo2 ji ,
first of all plz dont bring dasam granth in between. it is debatable who was its author.and i hold that my Guru was not its author.:yes:
so for me the following lines hav no use ---:u):

ਪਾਪ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਤ ਪ੍ਰਾਤ ਘਨੇ ॥ ਜਨ ਦੋਖਨ ਕੇ ਤਰ ਸੁੱਧ ਬਨੇ ॥ ਜਗ ਛੋਰ ਭਜਾ ਗਤ ਧਰਮਨ ਕੀ ॥ ਸੁ ਜਹਾਂ ਤਹਾਂ ਪਾਪ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਚੁਰੀ ॥੯੫॥
Paap karai nit praat ghane|| Jan dokhan ke tar suddh bane|| Jag chhor bhajaa gat dharman kee|| Su jahaan paap kriaa prachuree||95||

They will commit new sins and talking about the blemishes of others, they themselves will remain pure; the followers of the religions, will forsake the world and run away and there will be the propagation of the sinful activities here and there.95.


ਸੰਗ ਲਏ ਫਿਰੈ ਪਾਪਨ ਹੀ ॥ ਤਜ ਭਾਜ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਜਗ ਜਾਪਨ ਕੀ ॥ ਦਿਵ ਪਿਤ੍ਰਨ ਪਾਵਕ ਮਾਨਹ ਗੇ ॥ ਸਭ ਆਪਨ ਤੇ ਘਟਿ ਜਾਨਹ ਗੇ ॥੯੬॥
Sang lae phirai paapan hee|| Taj bhaaj kriaa jag jaapan ki|| Divpitran paavak maanah ge|| Sabh aapan te ghattee jaanah ge||96||

All of them will roam, committing sinful acts and the activites of recitation and worship will flee from the world; they will not have any faith in gods and manes and will consider all others inferior to them.96.

Dasam Granth, panna 1144

these lines sound like gospels

and after that--

The verse posted by Saint_Soldier ji (I think recorded by Narinder Singh, I am not certain) needs to be examined in more depth. Forgive me.

i hav simply translated a shabad :whisling:-

khalsa mero roop hai khas khalse me haun karon niwas.........................

and now a question from my side -the truth changes if all the mens of world dont accept it ???:{-is there a need for polls over this issue?????::
~~Gurukripa~~

 

[BhagatSingh]

first of all plz dont bring dasam granth in between. it is debatable who was its author.and i hold that my Guru was not its author.:yes:
so for me the following lines hav no use ---:u):

If I remember correctly it was you who first posted lines from Dasam Granth.