Why Can't Sikhs Excommunicate Patit Sikhs?

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

we gO BY SRM.... .yes jI..110%.

but no where does SRM say a Patit can be excommunicated/expelled...

Anyway ONLY an AMRITDHAREE SIKH accepts the SRM..and Akal takhat...so who is going to call the Patit up ???..... so how can we impose the SRM on a Patit who has REJECTED the Basis of SRM ??? sounds incredibly stupid... a person who was NEVER a British CITIZEN..cannot be "denied" BC Rights...??? He cant be hauled up before a BC Court ?? His "BC cannot be taken away..because he never had any in the first place...and the British QUEEN cant do "Shi.t" to him becasue he is NOT a British Subject...you get what i mean...

GURDWARAS...Langgars..Darbar halls..etc etc are ALL OPEN TO ALL..freely and equally...
ONLY certain duties are responsibility of Amrtidharee Sikhs ( Here many keep one or BOTH eyes CLOSED due to Bhai Bhatijawaad..dharras..groups..jathas..friends..relatives..whatever...) and these are Kirtan ardass Hukmnamah paath in SANGAT Granthi seva etc ...Amrit Sanchaar..Panj piayaras..etc etc...EVERYTHING else is SEVA for all.

 

[Ishna]

Why stop at Sikhs who cut their hair? There's lots more ways to thin the ranks;

[SIZE=-1]q. The following individuals shall be liable to chastisement involving automatic boycott: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1. Anyone maintaining relations or communion with elements antagonistic to the Panth including the minas (reprobates), the masands (agents once accredited to local Sikh communities as Guru's representatives, since discredited for their faults and aberrations), followers of Dhirmal or Ram Rai, et. al., or users of tobacco or killers of female infants[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2. One who eats/drinks Left-overs of the unbaptised or the fallen Sikhs; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]3. One who dyes his beard; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]4. One who gives off son or daughter in matrimony for a price or reward; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]5. Users of intoxicants (hemp, opium, liquor, narcotics, cocaine, etc.); [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]6. One holding, or being a party to, ceremonies or practices contrary to the Guru's way; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]7. One who defaults in the maintenance of Sikh discipline. [/SIZE]

​

And here's a magical reference: http://sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html

 

[BhagatSingh]

Ishna ji,
[SIZE=-1]"One who defaults in the maintenance of Sikh discipline.[/SIZE]" we are all done for. Lol


PS what's up with the "existential crisis" in your adherent?

 

[Searching]

palaingtha
The SRM was prepared after much deliberations by learned Sikh from across the entire world. It was drafted in accordance of Sikh tenets/Guru Gobind Singh Ji's aspiration about his Sikh.
Do you think your views are more precious than the draftees of SRM? No my dear. We have to go by SRM.

Sir, Is it not true that wearing of 5 Ks was made mandatory only for Those who partake Amrit?
If someone never took Amrit then how can that person called patit for breaking the code?
It is true that ones moves away from the physical identity of being a Sikh when s/he cuts hair but not a patit.
Also if someone keeps hair because he was born in a Sikh family and his parents made him do so without that person actually making any commitment to 5ks and later on decides to cut his hair cannot be called patit as long as he decides to leave Sikhism completely.

In case a Amritdhari Sikh does it he may be called patit but then taking Amrit is not an absolute requirement to become a SIikh.

 

[kds1980]

My reply:-

I am not advocating to excommunicate people who cut their hairs at large. I am only pointing that when a Sikh with hair at one time cuts his hair SRM requires of all Sikhs not to have any communication with such person who is declared as Patit.

I have read a story when I was in third standard.

A junglee dog was trapped in a trap set up be a hunter in a jungle. The dog tried to free itself and while doing so it cut it's tail in the process. All other dogs laughed at it. At this it told the other dogs that it was very convenient with this stub of a tail. And further advised them to cutoff their lengthy tails.

Don't you think a Patit Sikh will want other Sikhs go his way. That will be against the Sikh interests.

By this logic no non sikh should be allowed to enter Gurdwara.Whenever a Hindu visit gurdwara hear kirtan do sewa etc then everbody praises him but a clean shaven sikh do the same then plenty curse him for not keeping hair.Slowly clean shaven sikhs will start calling them as Gurudwara going Hindu's and soon a very large majority will become that

 

[palaingtha]

we gO BY SRM.... .yes jI..110%.

but no where does SRM say a Patit can be excommunicated/expelled...

Anyway ONLY an AMRITDHAREE SIKH accepts the SRM..and Akal takhat...so who is going to call the Patit up ???..... so how can we impose the SRM on a Patit who has REJECTED the Basis of SRM ??? sounds incredibly stupid... a person who was NEVER a British CITIZEN..cannot be "denied" BC Rights...??? He cant be hauled up before a BC Court ?? His "BC cannot be taken away..because he never had any in the first place...and the British QUEEN cant do "Shi.t" to him becasue he is NOT a British Subject...you get what i mean...

GURDWARAS...Langgars..Darbar halls..etc etc are ALL OPEN TO ALL..freely and equally...
ONLY certain duties are responsibility of Amrtidharee Sikhs ( Here many keep one or BOTH eyes CLOSED due to Bhai Bhatijawaad..dharras..groups..jathas..friends..relatives..whatever...) and these are Kirtan ardass Hukmnamah paath in SANGAT Granthi seva etc ...Amrit Sanchaar..Panj piayaras..etc etc...EVERYTHING else is SEVA for all.

Reply:-

You need to check properly. It is there. SIRGHUM NAAL SANGH NAHI KARNA. You are bent upon proving me wrong as you have so to say Jaundiced Eye.

 

[palaingtha]

Why stop at Sikhs who cut their hair? There's lots more ways to thin the ranks;

[SIZE=-1]q. The following individuals shall be liable to chastisement involving automatic boycott: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1. Anyone maintaining relations or communion with elements antagonistic to the Panth including the minas (reprobates), the masands (agents once accredited to local Sikh communities as Guru's representatives, since discredited for their faults and aberrations), followers of Dhirmal or Ram Rai, et. al., or users of tobacco or killers of female infants[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2. One who eats/drinks Left-overs of the unbaptised or the fallen Sikhs; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]3. One who dyes his beard; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]4. One who gives off son or daughter in matrimony for a price or reward; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]5. Users of intoxicants (hemp, opium, liquor, narcotics, cocaine, etc.); [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]6. One holding, or being a party to, ceremonies or practices contrary to the Guru's way; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]7. One who defaults in the maintenance of Sikh discipline. [/SIZE]

​

And here's a magical reference: http://sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html

My reply:-

You have left out the word "SIRGHUM" deliberately. Here we are discussing only Sikhs those who have cut their hairs. Be honest and see for yourself SIRGHUM in SRM. In SPN I find so many hypocrites and all ganging up against Sikhism.

 

[Harry Haller]

In SPN I find so many hypocrites and all ganging up against Sikhism.

:motherlylove:

 

[Ishna]

What is 'sirghum'? How can I deliberately leave out that which I don't know?

And while we're invoking the book to exclude people, Palaingtha, we shouldn't be picking and choosing the criteria. If the SRM says to boycott all those people on the list, why stop at just one item? They all apply equally.

If Sikhi went by SGGS only there wouldn't be this problem.

 

[palaingtha]

What is 'sirghum'? How can I deliberately leave out that which I don't know?

And while we're invoking the book to exclude people, Palaingtha, we shouldn't be picking and choosing the criteria. If the SRM says to boycott all those people on the list, why stop at just one item? They all apply equally.

If Sikhi went by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji only there wouldn't be this problem.

i
In SRM it is the first word SIRGHUM as also the others you have listed that are to be excommunicated by Sikhs. Find it as it is very much there. I am not denying not to apply the actionability. First admit that the SIRGHUM (those Sikhs who have cut their hairs) to be excommunicated as also those as per your list. Check the same in SRM.

 

[palaingtha]

Gurinder Singh Dhillon has a very very long beard, is that why he gets a guided tour of Sri Darbar Sahib..................

It is your main stay to sidestep the issue and ridicule the discussion as it goes against those Sikhs who have cut off their hairs.

 

[Harry Haller]

It is your main stay to sidestep the issue and ridicule the discussion as it goes against those Sikhs who have cut off their hairs.

for the benefit of those that do know of the gentlemen in question,.

RADHA SOAMI SATSANG (BEAS): Commonly known as Dera Beas, this dera holds a sway in Daoba and Majha areas. With its first Guru, Baba Jaimal Singh ji Maharaj, the dera came into existence in 1891. At present, it has a worldwide following. Its preachings are taken from various religions and while the dera claims that it has no political affiliation, the 2012 polls seem to have changed this claim to quiet an extent. While this dera too has a large following, it has been more or less silent, But not anymore. The dera, which was once considered to be a Congress bastion, has shifted its allegiance to the Akalis this time thanks to the marriage of Bikramjit Singh Majithia — brother-in-law of Deputy Chief Minister Sukhbir Singh Badal. Majithia’s wife Ganieve Grewal, now Majithia, belongs to the family of Charan Singh — former dera head. Current dera head Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillon holds Charan Singh’s family in high esteem.
Dhillon had studied at the Lawerence School, Sanwar, and then Government College of Men in Chandigarh. He has worked in the area of sale in Spain and tookover the reigns of the dera in 1990. A largely peaceful sect, the Radha Soamis own considerable land across the state and even in neighbouring states of Himachal Pradesh and Haryana. Their huge deras, where the local Radha Swamis gather each Sunday for prayer meetings, can be seen in all small and big cities.

taken from http://www.indianexpress.com/news/o...-some-as-old-as-sikh-religion-itself/904876/3

Again, I am having to explain my posts to you, but that is not a problem.

You are lauding the concept of 'no contact' with any Sikh that has cut their hair. If you count the women plucking eyebrows, the men with short beards, the men with dyed beards, that does not leave a huge amount left. Yet, here we have a living Guru, who is, no less, being given guided tours of Sri Darbar Sahib.....

Actually I think it is a great idea myself, if you excommunicate all these people, then you and your cronies can all relax, safe in the knowledge that you have purified the Khalsa! You can tell each other Sakhis, control your women, and churn out even more Sikh robots, all looking the same, all faithfully following the rituals and ceremonies, all afraid of magic!

The rest of us can then get on with our learning, at our own pace, in our own way, without hinderence, What can I do to help and expedite this fantastic and brilliant idea?

 

[palaingtha]

for the benefit of those that do know of the gentlemen in question,.



taken from http://www.indianexpress.com/news/o...-some-as-old-as-sikh-religion-itself/904876/3

Again, I am having to explain my posts to you, but that is not a problem.

You are lauding the concept of 'no contact' with any Sikh that has cut their hair. If you count the women plucking eyebrows, the men with short beards, the men with dyed beards, that does not leave a huge amount left. Yet, here we have a living Guru, who is, no less, being given guided tours of Sri Darbar Sahib.....

Actually I think it is a great idea myself, if you excommunicate all these people, then you and your cronies can all relax, safe in the knowledge that you have purified the Khalsa! You can tell each other Sakhis, control your women, and churn out even more Sikh robots, all looking the same, all faithfully following the rituals and ceremonies, all afraid of magic!

The rest of us can then get on with our learning, at our own pace, in our own way, without hinderence, What can I do to help and expedite this fantastic and brilliant idea?

My reply:-

Sikhism do not regard a patit Sikh as a part of the community. So don't worry about the matters you are not concerned
I an not saying anything at my pleasure. What I say is Sikh Tenets as per SRM.
Two wrongs or many wrongs do not make one correct.

 

[kds1980]

My reply:-

Sikhism do not regard a patit Sikh as a part of the community. So don't worry about the matters you are not concerned
I an not saying anything at my pleasure. What I say is Sikh Tenets as per SRM.
Two wrongs or many wrongs do not make one correct.

When it comes to census they do regard them as Sikhs.No sikh body has asked the GOI not to count sikhs with cut hair as Sikhs.If this rule is applied then 80% of Punjab will be Hindu .

 

[palaingtha]

When it comes to census they do regard them as Sikhs.No sikh body has asked the GOI not to count sikhs with cut hair as Sikhs.If this rule is applied then 80% of Punjab will be Hindu .

Reply-

Where does Sangrand and Masya fit in for Sikh community.
Visit Darbar Sahib on a Masya day. You will feel as if the whole of Punjab has descended into Amritsar. The whole of prakarma is blocked with devotees who slept out the night there and are readying/going for Darshan. Any visitor on this day will be tired to standing in queue for Matha tek.

This is their Hindu mentality in the public. Imagine what their lives to be steeped in ritualistic living.

The need of the day is Sikhi Parchar with all the heart and not be content declaring Patit Sikhs as Sikhs.
When you see 3 turbaned and 10 Patit Sikhs in an assembly of a hundred you will undoubtedly say there are three Sikhs and others non-Sikhs.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Sikhs Cannot "excommunicate" anybody...ONLY the SANGAT can do that...see SRM.
So IF one feels he has enough Sangat behind him..he can call a Local level Meeting at the Gurdwara and Excommunicate anyone they please. IF the tables get turned..and the others have more strength..then say Goodbye to the Gurdwar and find one elsewhere..

BTW..the SRM as it stands is NOT practiced to the Letter/Spirit in any GURDWARA in Punjab....not even the SGPC controlled ones..so as it stands NOW..its a paper Document.

 

[Harry Haller]

Sikhism do not regard a patit Sikh as a part of the community.

I personally think you have the words mixed up. I think ever since you saw those demonic magic imps dancing and eating fish and rice, you have had an aversion to small people. do you actually mean petite?

So don't worry about the matters you are not concerned

I am not worried at all, I love the Sikh religion, and I have my peace with Creator, your stance has been hugely educational, now, when I see other Sikhs, I can converse and debate with them as a non Sikh, rather than a Sikh, thanks to you, I have probably escaped a good beating, I mean, imagine it, a mona, living in sin with a Gori, with a history of various substance abuse, firstly calling himself a Sikh, and secondly, disputing hard facts (well, sakhis..) of Sikhism with a respected Sikh like yourself. No, my friend, you have done me a massive favour, but I will point out something to you, there are people here, whom you would condemn, but whose love and understanding of this great religion puts yours to shame. I would rather Sikhism was made up of those people, passionate, loving, understanding, growing, and becoming first class fully keshdhari Sikhs, than those that have been bullied into it, and who follow out of fear and obedience.

I an not saying anything at my pleasure

Then why say it? have you been sent by God to show us all the error of our ways? is it your mission? to rid the world of all those that want to be shown the way, rather than those who are dragged and pushed?

What I say is Sikh Tenets as per SRM.

The Sikhs also have a living Guru, the SGGS, you may have heard of it, it talks of love, and being able to see the entire human race as one, I for one, would put that ahead of the SRM, and any Sakhi, Sikhism also lauds understanding, logic, discretion, the ability to use your brain, rather than follow the words of men, take orders, your defence is no better than the Nazis who were just obeying orders. In fact this very thread has quite a nasty tone to it, and I do not find it consistent with what Sikhism teaches, you are proposing exclusion, Sikhism is about inclusion, SRM or no SRM.

Two wrongs or many wrongs do not make one correct.

A body cannot push a concept in a document, whilst at the same time give a warm welcome to a living Guru, it makes every concept in that document open to question. If you have ever read animal farm, then I would say that certain pigs seem to very keen on milk and apples, and rewriting the rule book to suit themselves,.

"Years pass on Animal Farm, and the pigs become more and more like human beings—walking upright, carrying whips, and wearing clothes. Eventually, the seven principles of Animalism, known as the Seven Commandments and inscribed on the side of the barn, become reduced to a single principle reading “all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” Napoleon entertains a human farmer named Mr. Pilkington at a dinner and declares his intent to ally himself with the human farmers against the laboring classes of both the human and animal communities. He also changes the name of Animal Farm back to the Manor Farm, claiming that this title is the “correct” one. Looking in at the party of elites through the farmhouse window, the common animals can no longer tell which are the pigs and which are the human beings. "

 

[palaingtha]

I personally think you have the words mixed up. I think ever since you saw those demonic magic imps dancing and eating fish and rice, you have had an aversion to small people. do you actually mean petite?



I am not worried at all, I love the Sikh religion, and I have my peace with Creator, your stance has been hugely educational, now, when I see other Sikhs, I can converse and debate with them as a non Sikh, rather than a Sikh, thanks to you, I have probably escaped a good beating, I mean, imagine it, a mona, living in sin with a Gori, with a history of various substance abuse, firstly calling himself a Sikh, and secondly, disputing hard facts (well, sakhis..) of Sikhism with a respected Sikh like yourself. No, my friend, you have done me a massive favour, but I will point out something to you, there are people here, whom you would condemn, but whose love and understanding of this great religion puts yours to shame. I would rather Sikhism was made up of those people, passionate, loving, understanding, growing, and becoming first class fully keshdhari Sikhs, than those that have been bullied into it, and who follow out of fear and obedience.



Then why say it? have you been sent by God to show us all the error of our ways? is it your mission? to rid the world of all those that want to be shown the way, rather than those who are dragged and pushed?



The Sikhs also have a living Guru, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, you may have heard of it, it talks of love, and being able to see the entire human race as one, I for one, would put that ahead of the SRM, and any Sakhi, Sikhism also lauds understanding, logic, discretion, the ability to use your brain, rather than follow the words of men, take orders, your defence is no better than the Nazis who were just obeying orders. In fact this very thread has quite a nasty tone to it, and I do not find it consistent with what Sikhism teaches, you are proposing exclusion, Sikhism is about inclusion, SRM or no SRM.



A body cannot push a concept in a document, whilst at the same time give a warm welcome to a living Guru, it makes every concept in that document open to question. If you have ever read animal farm, then I would say that certain pigs seem to very keen on milk and apples, and rewriting the rule book to suit themselves,.

"Years pass on Animal Farm, and the pigs become more and more like human beings—walking upright, carrying whips, and wearing clothes. Eventually, the seven principles of Animalism, known as the Seven Commandments and inscribed on the side of the barn, become reduced to a single principle reading “all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” Napoleon entertains a human farmer named Mr. Pilkington at a dinner and declares his intent to ally himself with the human farmers against the laboring classes of both the human and animal communities. He also changes the name of Animal Farm back to the Manor Farm, claiming that this title is the “correct” one. Looking in at the party of elites through the farmhouse window, the common animals can no longer tell which are the pigs and which are the human beings. "

My reply:-

Instead of giving a reply to a particular issue you mix up every thing. You write too much irrelevant things. Probably confused.
What I have said on two issues i.e:
1. Black magic. I said this black deed is practiced by witches and Sikhi accepts that there are witches.
2.Excommunication of a Sikh who has cut his hair: SRM is very clear on it.
I have very simply said I am not saying what I write. I inform SPN members what is written in SRM or Shri GGS. And in reply you write back senseless things.
If you give sensible reply in support of you belief I will reply, otherwise I don't want to waste my time with a person like you who is a bundle of superiority Complex.
People like think that they are very smart but do not realize their folly/ies.

 

[lionprinceuk]

Should the sehajdhari sampradaiye be excommunicated as well? Udasi, nirmalay, sewapanthi ....

 

[harmanpreet singh]

If Sikhi went by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji only there wouldn't be this problem.

well said Ishna ji 0