Why Can't Sikhs Excommunicate Patit Sikhs?

[Astroboy]

Sikhs should build bridges, not burn them. Bhai Kanaiya did not burn bridges.

Our langgar halls are for all hungry people irrespective of religion.
Our Guru said, Manas Ki Jaat Ikai Pehchanbo

Bhagat Ravidas Ji said,
"You make your hair beautiful and wear a stylish turban on your head, but in the end this body shall be reduced into a pile of ashes." - Page 659 Line 6

Kabir Ji says on page 870 Line 7 - upon death, the Hair burns like a pile of hay.

Guru Arjan says on Page 1084 Line 9,
Purify what is impure and let the Lord's presence be your religious tradition.
Let total awareness be the turban on your head.

So now we come to SRM - which has no part to play in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. But in Sikhism just because for a religion to maintain its status quo it has to have rules and regulations. But Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not a religion. It is Spiritual in Nature.


By wearing a Kirpan, you can only cut Deg during Ardas - just a ritual.
You cannot win a war fighting with swords or kirpans. For that matter, Sikhs should be wearing missiles around their gatras to remain in chardikala - outer showmanship.

 

[Rory]

Palaingtha ji, you seemingly want to appear as a well-equipped, hard-hitting debater. Your personal attacks on peoples' characters undermine that. You talk about irrelevant info, do you think it is necessary to throw sly remarks like "confused" at someone because they disagree with you? I'm also interested to know what qualifies you to psychoanalyze someone and diagnose a "superiority" complex over the internet. Please answer directly, avoiding irrelevant information. I would also like to know your stance on how we can excommunicate others whilst seeing humanity undivided. Gurfateh.

 

[Luckysingh]

Palaingtha ji,

You make a point and yes you do seem to be endorsing this SRM statement.
Your much older and wiser than me, but with todays times we have to be realistic- and that's a quality that the younger generation seem to have.

However, like Ishnaji mentioned we should look at the Sri Guru Granth sahib ji, primarily before letting SRM run the whole show.
Remember, SRM does not shape anyone into a sikh in any spiritual way, only the Guru can help with that.
SRM changes with time, yet the Gurus word remains and stays forever.

The problem we have with the mentioned excommunication, is not a problem itself but is what leads to more problems!!
- Your not sure what I mean do you ?
Let me explain...

At this moment we have many problems in the Sikh Panth. There are so many divisions and babay shabey that no one can give you real figures because the figures are huge.- A new one springs up every week!!!

Lets say that all the mona patits were excommunicated, then what will they do or become ???
-This is what they will do-
- They will group together and say sod off to the SRM for a start.
Then they will make their own Gurudwaras just like Ravidassis, ramgharias ..etc..
Then they will have their own version of SRM to be with the living times.
Then they will welcome ALL monas and sehajdharis suffering discrimination to their Gurudwaras.
Then from this ''UNITY'' will evolve some ''HEADS'' or people in charge to run the show.
Before you know it, there will be more Babay Shabey, more deras, More sects,.........and mostly MUCH MORE DIVISION OF THE PANTH- AGAIN!!!!!

Believe me, all of this is happening and will continue to happen if we endorse more views and attitudes in the said manner.

How close will the SRM be working towards our own Guru then ??

If SRM imposes conditions that tear us away from the Guru's word and teachings, then we have our human right to refuse such behaviour.


Have a little think, to see where I am coming from here. The easist thing to do when the panth is already divided is to divide it even more- which is what you are suggesting!!

The hardest and most gurmatt thing to do is try and fix it back together.

Come on, this is how it all goes 'kaputt'' as they say in german.
We should stop paying attention and regard to such matters and information and focus on what is really needed for the future, for the young of today.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Don't the Mona Sikh's have the potential to be initiated in the future, so communicate with them ,not excommunicate them ,for they are the Reserve and have the potential to become Regular Sikhs one day by Gods Grace .

 

[palaingtha]

Palaingtha ji, you seemingly want to appear as a well-equipped, hard-hitting debater. Your personal attacks on peoples' characters undermine that. You talk about irrelevant info, do you think it is necessary to throw sly remarks like "confused" at someone because they disagree with you? I'm also interested to know what qualifies you to psychoanalyze someone and diagnose a "superiority" complex over the internet. Please answer directly, avoiding irrelevant information. I would also like to know your stance on how we can excommunicate others whilst seeing humanity undivided. Gurfateh.

My reply:-

I had abstained from making personal remarks but when one is bent upon attacking me personally I have to say such things that I have said. One who always replies with irrelevant remarks and words he has to be given a befitting reply. I do not mind if anybody disagrees with me but no one can tolerate the manner he bulldozes in reply and making personal attacks.A man who has superiority complex talks and behaves in such a haughty way.
Regarding excommunicating others I do not have to answer. I am only citing the requirement of Sikhism as per SRM. You may question this to the SGPC as this is the concerned Sikh authority approving the SRM for all Sikhs to abide by.
What harm can a Patit Sikh do to us. You know who was leading the attack with 10,000 para military forces,fully armed with sophisticated arms/ammunition with tanks and torpados and support/orders from the Govt. of India. A day was chosen when the Darbar Sahib complex would be flooded with pilgrims, men, women, children
, the old and infirm celebrating Shahidee Gurpurb of Guru Arjan Dev Ji.. Hundreds of innocents were killed. About 150 children between the ages of nine and ten were lined up facing a wall and machine gunned. This happened in free India for which Sikhs hd contributed above 95% sacrifices.
Do you know who was leading the attack on Harmandir Sahib complex. A patit Sikh!!! Had he been a puran Gursikh he would have resigned his high job and faced the consequences disobeying the Military orders. So many Sikhs have sacrificed their lives and every thing of theirs for their religion and for their country.
The solution to overcome and subdue the uprising was just to order that since the complex was infested by insurgents the premises be locked, all supplies of food, potable water and other items blocked and ordered the group to surrender. You know KYA KYA BADEAMEEZIAN MILITARY WALEYAN NE KITIan.

I have not used any abusive words like the other in question but given the reply in a simple and honourable manner. We are discussing Not fighting. This should be the spirit. He should have been honest in giving his views and not mixing up different issues using such language "that he cannot ever be wrong and that the other fellow is wrong". That is his way of explaining what he believes BULLDoZING AND MAKING PERSONAL ATTACKS/REMARKS.

 

[palaingtha]

Palaingtha ji,

You make a point and yes you do seem to be endorsing this SRM statement.
Your much older and wiser than me, but with todays times we have to be realistic- and that's a quality that the younger generation seem to have.

However, like Ishnaji mentioned we should look at the Sri Guru Granth sahib ji, primarily before letting SRM run the whole show.
Remember, SRM does not shape anyone into a sikh in any spiritual way, only the Guru can help with that.
SRM changes with time, yet the Gurus word remains and stays forever.

The problem we have with the mentioned excommunication, is not a problem itself but is what leads to more problems!!
- Your not sure what I mean do you ?
Let me explain...

At this moment we have many problems in the Sikh Panth. There are so many divisions and babay shabey that no one can give you real figures because the figures are huge.- A new one springs up every week!!!

Lets say that all the mona patits were excommunicated, then what will they do or become ???
-This is what they will do-
- They will group together and say sod off to the SRM for a start.
Then they will make their own Gurudwaras just like Ravidassis, ramgharias ..etc..
Then they will have their own version of SRM to be with the living times.
Then they will welcome ALL monas and sehajdharis suffering discrimination to their Gurudwaras.
Then from this ''UNITY'' will evolve some ''HEADS'' or people in charge to run the show.
Before you know it, there will be more Babay Shabey, more deras, More sects,.........and mostly MUCH MORE DIVISION OF THE PANTH- AGAIN!!!!!

Believe me, all of this is happening and will continue to happen if we endorse more views and attitudes in the said manner.

How close will the SRM be working towards our own Guru then ??

If SRM imposes conditions that tear us away from the Guru's word and teachings, then we have our human right to refuse such behaviour.


Have a little think, to see where I am coming from here. The easist thing to do when the panth is already divided is to divide it even more- which is what you are suggesting!!

The hardest and most gurmatt thing to do is try and fix it back together.

Come on, this is how it all goes 'kaputt'' as they say in german.
We should stop paying attention and regard to such matters and information and focus on what is really needed for the future, for the young of today.

My reply:-
I appreciate the way you have put your point.
Let us take the problem in an individual way.
A Sikh youth comes home all shaved. He has not shaved in collaboration with others. So the matter is individual for his parents and other relatives. They should tackle the problem in a convincing way and let him feel he has not done a good deed. Let him feel sorry and if he is not very adamant he will realize his mistake and correct it.
If the youth is told the perils of his deed he would come back and advise others to remain part of the Sikh Panth. Also if his misdeed is accepted silently others in his family or friend circle will get encouraged to go the wrong way.We have to stop one so that we can stop other misguided youth in their tracks.
Patit Sikhs are more harmful than the Non-Sikhs.See who was leading with 10,000 Indian armed forces on Darbar Sahib on a day when thousand of devotees be gathered there to attend the Gurpurb. A patit Sikh is not a part of Sikhism. That is what SRM means.

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

Patit Sikhs are more harmful than the Non-Sikhs.See who was leading

If you want to talk about leaders in destruction of Sikhi, what about Sabat Soorat Mr. Badal?

 

[Harry Haller]

Palaingthaji

My apologies for my non reply, I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

Good luck with your mission!

 

[palaingtha]

What about 99% of the world humans who cut their hair? Would you cut off relation with them?

It is better to ex-communicate the 5 vices from yourself than people from Panth

My reply:-

SRM is concerned with Sikhs only and not with the entire world's populace. Ethics are drafted for the members of a group, religions, associations, societies etc. By side tracking an issue you cannot solve a problem.
Why do you say from 'YOURSELF". It is a personal attack. If one can expel the five vices one is a JEEWAN MUKAT while living.
Regarding "Would you cut off relations with them?", you better put this question to the Institution that drafted the SRM. I have only pointed out what SRM says.

 

[palaingtha]

Why have I never heard anyone say that why don't we excommunicate Sikhs who wear Jockey instead of Kachera?
Or lets excommunicate Sikhs who do not keep Kangha?

It is sad that many among our youth have decided to get rid of our religious identity but still we can't "enforce" it on them.
If anything at all, we need to bring them back to the Sikh values by active prachar or some other means not excommunicate them.

My reply:-

For the first para of your thread you better read SRM. You will get the reply. One ( being a keshdhari Sikh) cuts off his hair is to be excommunicated. On the infringement of other four K's one is to be charged as TANKHIA (guilty) and he is , if found guilty, to be punished, like doing Jore seva, Jharu seva or bartan maanj seva etc. before he can retake Amritpan.
Of course no one can force them but SRM has enforced upon the Sikhs to excommunicate patit Sikhs. You know what harm they can do to the Sikh Panth. Remember Operation Bluestar?
I agree with you as your suggestion that we must bring them back to the Sikh fold by Prachar or some other valid means. But till then the Code of conduct of Sikhism,i.e. SRM should apply.

 

[Ishna]

But till then the Code of conduct of Sikhism,i.e. SRM should apply.

And what is your opinion of other Sikh Maryadas? What makes one maryada better than the other? How do you know you're following the right one? How do you feel being tankhia according to some other maryada?

 

[HardFacts]

Lot of Sikhs do not practice SRM fully, is there any bare minimal code of conduct for a person to be a Sikh ?
(Such as, a person who calls himself/herself a Sikh and hopes that one day will start following atleast some of the tenets of Sikhism.)

 

[palaingtha]

There are what is known as Sehajdhari Sikhs or slow adopters. There is no compulsion or Sikhs to take Amrit and never should be. Neither should their be anomisity against thos who have not. By doing such this we'll just create a type of Sikh "Brahmin".

My reply:-

So you are of the view that we should ignore the SRM dictates.

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

So you are of the view that we should ignore the SRM dictates.

Nope. Rehat is for you to follow and a measure of your commitment. In their times Guru Sahib made ex-communication announcement when his followers in garb of sampooran Sikhs made transgressions. Why do you have to make a hair cutting Sikh outcast? He is not proclaiming he is the best Sikh. Everyone should be allowed their breathing space. And when it comes to checking Patit, are you going to do a full body search for each individual? It has to be weekly or monthly check?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

 

[Harry Haller]

My reply:-

So you are of the view that we should ignore the SRM dictates.

Mona types are a pretty easy target, but I admire your intentions, Can I assume you will be making a point of the following?

Anything except the aforementioned reverential ceremonies, for instance, such practices as the arti[SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE] with burning incense and lamps, offerings of eatables to Guru Granth Sahib, burning of lights, beating of gongs, etc., is contrary to gurmat (the Guru’s way). However, for the perfuming of the place, the use of flowers, incense and scent is not barred. For light inside the room, oil or butter-oil lamps, candles, electric lamps, kerosene oil lamps, etc., may be lighted.

No book should be installed like and at par with the Guru Granth.

Maybe you could visit a few Nihang Gurdwaras and complain about the DG?

Pressing the legs of the cot on which the Guru Granth Sahib is installed, rubbing nose against walls and on platforms, held sacred, or massaging these, placing water below the Guru Granth Sahib’s seat, making or installing statues, or idols inside the gurdwaras, bowing before the picture of the Sikh Gurus or elders — all these are irreligious self-willed egotism, contrary to gurmat (the Guru’s way).

Hmmm this is also quite common, I think you should add this to your list

Sitting on a cushion, a distinctive seat, a chair, a stool, a cot, etc. or in any distinctive position in the presence of the Guru Granth or within the congregation is contrary to gurmat (Guru’s way).

Yes, they punish this by giving you a full guided tour and Saropa!

The non-stop reading of the Guru Granth Sahib is carried on at hard times or on occasions of elation or joy. It takes approximately fortyeight hours. The non-stop reading implies continuous, uninterrupted reading. The reading must be clear and correct. Reading too fast, so that the person listening in to it cannot follow the contents, amounts to irreverence to the Scriptures. The reading should be correct and clear, due care being bestowed on consonant and vowel even though that takes a little longer to complete.

another for you!

Whichever family or congregation undertakes the non-stop reading should carry it out itself through its members, relatives, friends,

and another, I think you are going to be very busy!

Not believing in caste or descent untouchabililty, Magic spells, incantation, omens, auspicious times, days and occasions, influence of stars, horoscopic dispositions,

Err don't you believe in Magic spells?

So do please tell me why you have a bee in your bonnet about monas? your excuse that it is written in the SRM simply does not wash, as you yourself have made comments about both caste and magic. Have you ever heard the phrase 'those in glass houses should not throw stones'?

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=173888

 

[palaingtha]

And what is your opinion of other Sikh Maryadas? What makes one maryada better than the other? How do you know you're following the right one? How do you feel being tankhia according to some other maryada?

My reply:-

Instead of asking me why don'y you go through SRM and you will have first hand knowledge.
You seem to be a supporter of Patits.

 

[palaingtha]

Mona types are a pretty easy target, but I admire your intentions, Can I assume you will be making a point of the following?





Maybe you could visit a few Nihang Gurdwaras and complain about the DG?



Hmmm this is also quite common, I think you should add this to your list



Yes, they punish this by giving you a full guided tour and Saropa!



another for you!



and another, I think you are going to be very busy!



Err don't you believe in Magic spells?

So do please tell me why you have a bee in your bonnet about monas? your excuse that it is written in the SRM simply does not wash, as you yourself have made comments about both caste and magic. Have you ever heard the phrase 'those in glass houses should not throw stones'?

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=173888

My reply:

SRM is very clear on the topics you have raised. By raising several issues it dose not obliterate the issue we are discussing.
We are not discussing Monas. We are on the topic of a Sikh who has cut his hair and become a patit as per SRM.
Regarding English proverbs I would say you are not the only one to have learnt proverbs and idioms. So stop personal questions.
Regarding castes Gurus only said not to be proud of your high caste. If mention of castes with ones name is taboo then why Bedi, Bhalla and Sodhi mentioned with our Guru's names.
n Sukhmani Sahib one can read:-
Jeh Prasad teri niki jaat, (with whose blessings you have a beautiful (superior) caste,
So prabh simar sada din raat, (remember Him ever by day and night)

In the GGS one can find in several places the sarmons of the Guru are for all the castes, Khatri, Brahmin, Shood and Vaish.
If a wrong is done by any of the high authority, like you mentioned, gave a guided tour to Radha Soami Head, many Sikhs feel is was very wrong. But that wrong cannot upgrade a Patit Sikh's status. He has to appear voluntarily and beg of pardon to the Sad Sangat and get, again or first time ever if not initiated, admission to Sikh panth by Amritpan.
You must have gone through Gurban references about black magic, excommunication of Patits etc in my threads addressed to AMAN SINGH JI.
You don't comment upon it but go on citing what you see, feel or hear about from others.
If you are bold enough admit that you have done a KUREHAT as per SRM rather than beating about the bush like blaming/commenting me/upon me or others.

 

[Harry Haller]

as I have never had Amrit I cannot be patit

You, on the other hand have, and your belief in black magic is contra to SRM

I guess the only patit round here would be you then

 

[Harry Haller]

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/unite...-turban-erodes-magnificent-sikh-identity.html

I think he is making the same point as you, but in a manner less bitter and twisted

 

[Ishna]

My reply:-

Instead of asking me why don'y you go through SRM and you will have first hand knowledge.
You seem to be a supporter of Patits.

I've read SRM and Damdami maryadas. Your point?

And how exactly do you propose to atone for your continuing sin of carrying on conversation with us Patit Sikhs? Are you going to start ignoring our posts? Or is it ok when YOU talk to patit Sikhs but others can't? Or is it ok to talk with them online but just not face to face? How are you going to tell who has their hair and who doesn't?

I'm a supporter of common sense, I could care less about patit or not patit.