Why Can't Sikhs Excommunicate Patit Sikhs?

[palaingtha]

actually most were addressed to me.

Why take the trouble?

Because everytime you post something, you answer nothing but merely contradict yourself.

I have to say my interaction with you has been hugely beneficial for me in more ways than you could possibly understand. You have taught me that wisdom does not automatically come with age, that an 18 year old can have more foresight and experience than an 81 year old, that views based on rumours and stories can never be given any grounding, so so much.

In all honesty, I feel sorry for you, and I am not being sarcastic, I truly, from the bottom of my heart feel a pity for you. Your take on Sikhism is divisive, and like most of your generation it is because you never asked questions, you never said 'why?', you accepted handed down stories as fact and based your life and your thinking on it. Of course in those days there were no internet, no communication, just old men and women spewing the same garbage that was spewed to them. Sikhism became different, each family had its own version, thats how things were then.

Now we have the internet, now we are not afraid of the elders any more, now we question, we debate, we discuss, we try and find the truth through the fog.

When I started my interest in Sikhism again after many years living the light fantastic, the first question people asked me was 'Will you grow your hair now', which I thought was a strange question, as if that was the only facet to being a Sikh. Nothing is ever said about the thinking, the contemplation, the actions of being a Sikh, it is always the hair.

Your writings betray your views, your views belong in a different age, an age long gone now.

I beg you to take a good hard look at your thinking and try and find some truth before it is too late, surely you do not wish to leave this world relying on those sakhis, believing that all it takes to be a Sikh is hair, wake up my dear friend, it is the 21st Century, we should help and embrace each other, we should be lobbying for a change to the SRM to be in line with the 21st century, so that it does not make a mockery of Sikhism. Frankly under the SRM as it stands, you would be hard pressed not find some rule or wording that did not make patits out of all Sikhs. I have already several times brought your attention to your fascination with magic and witches, which is clearly stated as being anti Sikhi, yet you refuse to be drawn on this topic.

My reply:-

Here is Gurbani on Occult powers practiced by people with page references.


OCCULT POWERS - SIDHIS
ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਸਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥:

Ridhi Sidhi are all emotional attachments (egoism); through them,
Naam (Aatam Giaan, Spiritual Wisdom...) does not come to dwell in the mind (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 593).
<><><><>

Saadhoos, Yogis, Swamis, or Sidhaas consciously display such powers for insignificant things like impressing upon unsuspecting people for making new disciples and followers, amassing money, gaining fame and honor, securing material welfare and comforts of life, . However, the life of such mean and deluded Moodha or ******* is no different than a prostitute: so long one consciously and selfishly exercises supernatural powers to produce miracles,
ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਸਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥ Ridhi Sidhi are all emotional attachments (egoism); through them, Naam (Aatam Giaan, Spiritual Wisdom...) does not come to dwell in the mind (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 593).

ਪਰਮਾਣੋ ਪਰਜੰਤ ਆਕਾਸਹ ਦੀਪ ਲੋਅ ਸਿਖੰਡਣਹ ॥ ਗਛੇਣ ਨੈਣ ਭਾਰੇਣ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਸਾਧੂ ਨ ਸਿਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਤੇ ॥੨॥: Even if the mortal could reduce himself to the size of an atom, and shoot through the ethers, continents, worlds and their regions in the blink of an eye, even then, O Nanak, without the Saadhoo (the mended mind linked with the Mool within), his life will not be fruitfull - Safal ||2|| (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 1360).
The religion or Spirituality is not meant to perform weird tricks. The only purpose of religion or Spirituality is to kill the false ego-sense (Hayume) . The true spirit of religion, thus, urges man to raise his Spiritual, moral, and ethical standard ee, the intention of religion is not to make us sorcerer, magicians or Madaaree!
ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਪੈਨਣੁ ਖਾਣੁ ਸਭੁ ਬਾਦਿ ਹੈ ਧਿਗੁ ਸਿਧੀ ਧਿਗੁ ਕਰਮਾਤਿ ॥: Without the Name, all food and clothes are worthless; (without the Naam) accursed are all Sidhee and miracles (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 650).
What is occult power? Also known as Sidhis, Ashvarayas, Tant Mant (tantar mantar or tantra mantra), miraculous powers, spiritual powers, supernatural powers, magical powers, psychic powers, super human powers, super sensory phenomena, extrasensory perceptions, and so on, are in fact divine powers which can be manifested by any living being who has obtained mastery over the forces of the creation or nature through special training and practice of certain substance or Mantraas.
Sidhis or Siddhis - supernatural powers - are said to be eighteen in number. Of them, the eight are known as major and the remaining are considered minor. The eight principle Sidhis are as follows: the power to assume form as small as atom (Anima), as large as mountain (Mahimaa), as light in weight as ------The system was not accepting more words.

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On Birth, death and rebirth viz. reincarnation.
HerE under find Gurbani on this topic;-
Reincarnation

Separated from the Primal Lord, they loudly weep and whine. They die and die, only to be reborn, when their time has passed (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1035).

Those who meditate on God attain salvation. For them, the cycle of birth and death is eliminated (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 11).

The ignorant and oblivious do not serve the true Guru, how will they find salvation? They die only to be reborn over and over again. They continue to be struck down at the door of death (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 115).

When the body is filled with ego and selfishness, the cycle of birth and death does not end (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 126).

The blind have forgotten the Name of God. The self-willed people are in utter darkness. Their comings and goings in reincarnation do not end; through death and rebirth, they are wasting away (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 19).

As long as the tongue does not chant the Name of God, the person continues coming and going in reincarnation, crying out in pain (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 325).

People eat what they believe to be sweet, but it turns out to be bitter in taste. They attach their affections to brothers and friends, uselessly engrossed in corruption. They vanish without a moment's delay; without God's Name, they are stunned and amazed. O my mind, attach yourself to the service of the true Guru. Whatever you see will pass away. Abandon the intellectualizations of your mind. Like the mad dog running around in all directions, the greedy person consumes everything, edible and non-edible alike. Engrossed in the intoxication of sexual desire and anger, people wander through reincarnation over and over again. Maya has spread out her net, and in it, maya has placed the bait. The bird of desire is caught and cannot escape, O my mother. One who does not know the Lord who created him, comes and goes in reincarnation over and over again. By various devices and in many ways, this world is enticed. They alone are saved, whom the All-powerful, Infinite Lord protects. The servants of Lord are saved by the love of God. O Nanak, I am forever a sacrifice to them (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 50).

At the very last moment, one who thinks of wealth, and dies in such thoughts, shall be reincarnated in the form of serpent. One should not forget the Naam. At the very last moment, he who thinks of women, and dies in such thoughts, shall be reincarnated as a prostitute. At the very last moment, one who thinks of his children, and dies in such thoughts, shall be reincarnated as a pig. At the very last moment, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts, shall be reincarnated as a goblin. At the very last moment, one who thinks of the Lord, and dies in such thoughts, says Trilochan, that man becomes liberated and Lord abides in his heart. (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 526).

People continue wandering through the cycle of 8.4 million incarnations; without the true Guru, liberation is not obtained. Reading and studying, the Pandits (religious sch


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On Sikhs who cut off their hairs, the SRM says:-

The under mentioned four transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided:
(1) Dishonouring the hair;
(2) Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way;
(3) Cohabiting with a person other than one’s spouse;
(4) Using tobacco.
In the event of the commission of any of these transgressions, the transgressor must get re-baptised. If a transgression is committed unintentionally and unknowingly, the transgressor shall not be liable to punishment. You must not associate with a Sikh who had uncut hair earlier and has cut it or a Sikh who smokes. You must ever be ready for the service of the Panth and of the gurdwaras (Sikh places of worship). You must tender one tenth of your earnings to the Guru. In short, you must act the Guru’s way in all spheres of activity.

You must remain fully aligned to the Khalsa brotherhood in accordance with the principles of the Khalsa faith. If you commit transgression of the Khalsa discipline, you must present yourself before the congregation and beg pardon, accepting whatever punishment is awarded. You must also resolve to remain watchful against defaults in the future.

(q) The following individuals shall be liable to chastisement involving automatic boycott:
(1) Anyone maintaining relations or communion with elements antagonistic to the Panth including the minas (reprobates), the masands (agents once accredited to local Sikh communities as Guru’s representatives, sine discredited for their faults and aberrations), followers of Dhirmal or Ram Rai, et. al., or users of tobacco or killers of female infants;
(2) One who eats/drinks leftovers of the un-baptised or the fallen Sikhs;
(3) One who dyes his beard;
(4) One who gives off son or daughter in matrimony for a price or reward;
(5) Users of intoxicant (hemp, opium, liquor, narcotics, cocaine, etc.);
(6) One holding, or being a party to, ceremonies or practices contrary to the Guru’s way;
(7) One who defaults in the maintenance of Sikh discipline.


Instead of beating about the bush reply to the three issues on which you are making personal attacks on me. If you believe in GGS accept the words of Gurbani and also SRM.

Cowards do not talk honestly especially when they find they are wrong they side track the issue and stoop so low as to make personal attacks which are not called for. Stick to the issues we are discussing and don't indulge in personal attacks and don't drift in futility.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Palaingtha ji if I may suggest that you start a separate thread on the topic or your thoughts on "Occult powers practiced by people", etc., and references to such in SGGS. This does not line up with the theme of this thread in my view but is important enough in its own right.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[palaingtha]

I can see in the future, not in my life time, but I am sad to say this. These hard-liners and liberals in Sikhism, fighting it out as these hard-liners think they control the religion and the liberals just want to get on they are not bothered what the hard-liners do, but the hard-liners seem bothered about what the liberals do and so this leads to oppression and quiet honestly with history as an example oppression never lasts. Have rules and conducts but things that propose love for humanity without dis-positioning another person just because they behave differently to you! This will not unite you and you will lose a failing thought position. Look at history at the process of thinking or should I say policy you are peddling Mr palaingtha! "Divide and Conquer", "United they stand but divided they fall"

That is a small, irrelevant and insensible talk in view of what we are discussing.
Tell me What I say can be verified/authenticated by referring to GGS and SRM.
You will not reply directly to this but indulge in small talk and personal attacks.
I am not dictating. Simply saying this is in conformity to our religion.
Patits are harmful to Sikh causes. And that's it.

 

[Harry Haller]

Interesting post, you back up your arguments with whatever you can find, wherever you can find it.

let us try and stick to one topic, namely Magic

Now let us try and stick to one source, namely the SRM.

Now answer the question I have put to you several times

How do you reconcile the SRM view on magic with your own?

I can provide you with plenty of quotes from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji regarding this being the one and only life we get, it is all pointless trying to prove anything with quotes, I can also provide you with many quotes from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji regarding universal love for all, that speak against your obsession with excommunication, so please, let us stick to the SRM.

How do you reconcile the SRM view on magic with your own?

now stop sidetracking the issue and answer the question, if you can
if you cannot, simply say you cannot and we can move on to your other points.
Until this issue is resolved there is no point in further debate, your posts will serve simply as material for general poking of fun.

Thank you

In view of the post made by Ambarsariaji, I would point out that one cannot take a part of the SRM and attempt to enforce it, whilst ignoring other aspects of the same SRM. If our friend here is so keen on the SRM, why does he have a belief in magic?. From that point of view, the question of magic and the SRM remains relevant to this discussion, although the question of magic and the SGGS is not.

 

[Admin]

Admin Note: Please focus on the topic-in-hand and avoid making personal comments. Personal comments only take us away from the topic. Gurfateh!

 

[Parma]

That is a small, irrelevant and insensible talk in view of what we are discussing.
No it is not small, irrelevant and insensible talk what I am talking about,
you are saying that you want to excommunicate other sikhs from the sikh religion, this will with time cause war. It happened with the sikhs at the time of the mughal empire people were being stopped from, adhering to their love and faith in god although their message was not Islamic.
Tell me What I say can be verified/authenticated by referring to GGS and SRM.
SRM, is a man made concept defined by the panth and should be respected I guess but that also means, that the SRM needs to improve with time as we are sikh and don't stay were we are sitting but try to improve develop learn=sikh.

You will not reply directly to this but indulge in small talk and personal attacks.
I am sorry if you feel I am attacking you, this is nothing what you are mentioning in the future will bring alot worse for your future generations
I am not dictating. Simply saying this is in conformity to our religion.
Same thing! If it is conformity only and the concept is lax why is thread titled as excommunicate other sikhs?
Patits are harmful to Sikh causes. And that's it.

No one is harmful to any sikh cause, their is no sikh cause! Does it have a mandate like the UN? lol. What does a guy living in the UK gain out of a khalistan, you may say khalistan, it is not a sikh cause it is a punjabi singh cause. Define a SIKH? Gaining personal peace is the greatest gift we can help each other to achieve. Your methods are not peaceful sir, and that is harmful to sikhs!

God forbid if ever they start to turn people away from the temple for not wearing a turban. At this point I think the dera's mahants baba's all the one's I dont like I would associate with just to smack some sense into this khalistani singh hard-liner movement types once and for all, just to be able to pray peacfully in a temple without some mr I know it all giani telling me what to do! Just do your seva nothing more you are not here to run the world their is no panth the entire world is Sikh open your eyes Mr palagaintha. Do you think you can take on the entire world?

 

[palaingtha]

Interesting post, you back up your arguments with whatever you can find, wherever you can find it.

let us try and stick to one topic, namely Magic

Now let us try and stick to one source, namely the SRM.

Now answer the question I have put to you several times

How do you reconcile the SRM view on magic with your own?

I can provide you with plenty of quotes from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji regarding this being the one and only life we get, it is all pointless trying to prove anything with quotes, I can also provide you with many quotes from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji regarding universal love for all, that speak against your obsession with excommunication, so please, let us stick to the SRM.

How do you reconcile the SRM view on magic with your own?

now stop sidetracking the issue and answer the question, if you can
if you cannot, simply say you cannot and we can move on to your other points.
Until this issue is resolved there is no point in further debate, your posts will serve simply as material for general poking of fun.

Thank you

My Reply:-

In view of the post made by Ambarsariaji, I would point out that one cannot take a part of the SRM and attempt to enforce it, whilst ignoring other aspects of the same SRM. If our friend here is so keen on the SRM, why does he have a belief in magic?. From that point of view, the question of magic and the SRM remains relevant to this discussion, although the question of magic and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not.

My reply:-

You are not the Master of this Website that I would obey to your commands . So don't order what I should do not do.
I have proir to the above threa given you the Gurbani English Translation where it is mentioned that WITCH CRAFTS/BLACK MAGIC exists and also the view of Gurbani on REINCARNATION. As also concerned passage on Sirghum( Sikhs who have cut their hairs)
The ball is in your court. On all the three counts you owe a reply to SPN members whether the quotations I presented are real or bogus. If real and you believe in Gurbani you have to accept my contention that Sikhism believes that there are witches and that Sikhism also believes in REINCARNATION. How about SRM that says SIKHS WHO HAVE CUT THEIR HAIRS ARE NOT TO BE ASSOCIATED BY ANY SIKH.
I will not have any further discussions with you or any of your stooges unless you reply to above.

If you are honest enough you will give a reply to above and not make any counter charges.

 

[Harry Haller]

I have no intention of getting into a debate with you on the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. One can distort translations to suit oneself, so that would be futile. Also, I happen to respect anyones personal translation, so therefore if you believe in reincarnation, imps, pixies, that is up to you and I have no desire to change or intimate that you are wrong, that is not what this forum is about.

You may wish to see the following thread where it is clearly illustrated how english translations can be twisted.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/38139-a-question-to-gurujee-bani-manipulation.html

So clearly throwing quotes at each other is a waste of time.

No, what concerns me is this obsession with the SRM. Let us stick to the SRM, as that is the basis for your thread, my argument is simple, I have conceded you are correct in your quote, as a matter of interest, I read the SRM in full yesterday, and I have to say, I do not agree with it, nor do I intend to follow it, it may have been relevant when it was written, but it is not for the 21st century. However you do follow it, and you folllow it with much passion. I can respect that, I can respect a man who stands up and follows something, anything, but I despise double standards, so I will ask you again, how can you passionately support one part of the SRM whilst ignoring other parts?

P.S. you may have plenty time on your hands to duck and dive the question, but I do not, I am getting bored with your answers, we are going round and round, and other than the entertainment value, there seems little point in continuing this discussion unless you are able to answer what is a simple question.

Let me make it easy for you. You believe in magic and that cut haired sikhs should be excommunicated, I do not believe in magic and believe everyone should have access to sangat, fallen or not. By my reckoning, neither of us are not following the SRM, yet you think you are, explain

 

[Ishna]

How much can one flog a dead horse?

 

[Harry Haller]

How much can one flog a dead horse?

depends if its been reincarnated again

lol lol lol lol lol

 

[Luckysingh]

Who's killed a horse ?
Anyway can you get excommunicated for eating horsemeat ?
I was in Ibiza many many years ago and my spanish wasn't too good, so I accidently ended up eating horsemeat thinking it was normal steak!
It was the most tender, juicy and succulent 14 oz I had ever had and even tipped the waiter about 20 quid of pesetas(before the Euro currency)

 

[palaingtha]

No one is harmful to any sikh cause, their is no sikh cause! Does it have a mandate like the UN? lol. What does a guy living in the UK gain out of a khalistan, you may say khalistan, it is not a sikh cause it is a punjabi singh cause. Define a SIKH? Gaining personal peace is the greatest gift we can help each other to achieve. Your methods are not peaceful sir, and that is harmful to sikhs!

God forbid if ever they start to turn people away from the temple for not wearing a turban. At this point I think the dera's mahants baba's all the one's I dont like I would associate with just to smack some sense into this khalistani singh hard-liner movement types once and for all, just to be able to pray peacfully in a temple without some mr I know it all giani telling me what to do! Just do your seva nothing more you are not here to run the world their is no panth the entire world is Sikh open your eyes Mr palagaintha. Do you think you can take on the entire world?

My reply:-

No comments to frivolous threads.

 

[palaingtha]

I have no intention of getting into a debate with you on the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. One can distort translations to suit oneself, so that would be futile. Also, I happen to respect anyones personal translation, so therefore if you believe in reincarnation, imps, pixies, that is up to you and I have no desire to change or intimate that you are wrong, that is not what this forum is about.

You may wish to see the following thread where it is clearly illustrated how english translations can be twisted.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/38139-a-question-to-gurujee-bani-manipulation.html

So clearly throwing quotes at each other is a waste of time.

No, what concerns me is this obsession with the SRM. Let us stick to the SRM, as that is the basis for your thread, my argument is simple, I have conceded you are correct in your quote, as a matter of interest, I read the SRM in full yesterday, and I have to say, I do not agree with it, nor do I intend to follow it, it may have been relevant when it was written, but it is not for the 21st century. However you do follow it, and you folllow it with much passion. I can respect that, I can respect a man who stands up and follows something, anything, but I despise double standards, so I will ask you again, how can you passionately support one part of the SRM whilst ignoring other parts?

P.S. you may have plenty time on your hands to duck and dive the question, but I do not, I am getting bored with your answers, we are going round and round, and other than the entertainment value, there seems little point in continuing this discussion unless you are able to answer what is a simple question.

Let me make it easy for you. You believe in magic and that cut haired sikhs should be excommunicated, I do not believe in magic and believe everyone should have access to sangat, fallen or not. By my reckoning, neither of us are not following the SRM, yet you think you are, explain

My reply:-

When you lent a blind eye to the facts it is no use churning water.
I have asked you tell me the references of SGGs was acceptable to you or not. You have enblock rejected by saying English translations are distorted.
Give your own version of the Passages of SGGS I have furnished to arrive at a meaning full discussion.
You have mentality built up of " Heads I win. tails you loose".
Be honest and give what you understand by the SGGS passages.
Regarding "Hair cuts are not to be associated" mentioned in SRM, you think that is What I want? No. It is what the Panth's Reps. want. A jaundiced mind sees only yellow.

 

[palaingtha]

Who's killed a horse ?
Anyway can you get excommunicated for eating horsemeat ?
I was in Ibiza many many years ago and my spanish wasn't too good, so I accidently ended up eating horsemeat thinking it was normal steak!
It was the most tender, juicy and succulent 14 oz I had ever had and even tipped the waiter about 20 quid of pesetas(before the Euro currency)

My reply:-

Your question is irrelevant. We are discussing Patit Sikh, i.e. A Sikh who has cut his long hair.

 

[Luckysingh]

What about the sikhs that have always had cut hair, are they not to be associated with or to have any relations with ?

 

[palaingtha]

What about the sikhs that have always had cut hair, are they not to be associated with or to have any relations with ?

They were never Sikhs.
We are discussing about Sikhs who once had long hair which they had cut them and become Patits.
The heading of the relevant topic is "Why can't Sikhs excommunicate Patit Sikhs". Confine you threads to this only.
Thanks.

 

[Ishna]

Palaingtha,

What does this part of the SRM mean:

A Sikh's living, earning livelihood, thinking and conduct should accord with the Guru's tenets. The Guru's tenets are: ... {snip}
<SNIP>
d) Not believing in caste or descent untouchabililty, Magic spells, incantation, omens, auspicious times, {snip}...<SNIP>

​

Lucky,

To 'flog a dead horse' is an euphemism for 'continuing on with something that is futile, i.e. this argument will get no where so why keep at it?

 

[Luckysingh]

So you think tha the SRM says that people with cut hair are Not sikhs an only a non- mona can be called a sikh ?
I'm getting a little confused here..

 

[Luckysingh]

Palaingtha,

What does this part of the SRM mean:

A Sikh's living, earning livelihood, thinking and conduct should accord with the Guru's tenets. The Guru's tenets are: ... {snip}
<SNIP>
d) Not believing in caste or descent untouchabililty, Magic spells, incantation, omens, auspicious times, {snip}...<SNIP>

​

Lucky,

To 'flog a dead horse' is an euphemism for 'continuing on with something that is futile, i.e. this argument will get no where so why keep at it?

Sorry, I knew what you meant. I was just trying to add a little humour.

 

[Ishna]

Ooohhh! Sorry, I getcha now