Amrit Vela / Early Rising - What Does Gurbani Say?

[chazSingh]

Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write in post#72


If the above what you claim is the Sikhi way, then why do we recite the following two Shabads daily in the evening called Soh Dhar-Rehraas? I have not included the explanation by Prof. Sahib SIngh in the following because I did not get the response how good your Gurmukhi is. Hence, I just added Sant Singh Khalsa's literal translation.

BTW, the word Sangat comes 717 times in SGGS, our only Guru which contradicts your claim above. Do you claim that you know better than our Gurus or you misspoke?

The above is not a criticism in any way or form what you do but the fact of the matter is your stance above contradicts the principles of Sikhi and I am wondering why you have this stance. Would appreciate if your clarify that.





Regards

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Ji,

remember what i said earlier...that it often comes across that you try to discredit other sangat members by picking at their posts and trying to find what you believe are faults.

this is exactly what you have done here...

even though in my above post i stated "thanks for the suggestion...but my Simran is done alone...at home. i Say 'alone' but i'm never actually 'alone' ...my sangat is at the Gurdwara or online with like minded individuals i have met on this forum and other forums...
why change a winning formula?"

you still try to pick at a single sentence and try to slam your fellow 'sangat' member down by claiming i am somehow against having Sangat...did you even read my above comment ?


but that's ok...like i said i am used to it

it took me back that even Ishna Ji took a single sentence of mine and then tried to make me come across as rude...even though when you read my post the comment was clearly no intended towards anyone on the forum

and then Harry Ji tries to make out i am SPAM'ing...i mean really...if you don;t like my opinion...move on...

this is exactly the pack mentality that has made what was once a 'GLOBAL' forum into one that has only 5-6 members regular posters

Also, well done for finding out how many times the world 'mind' is used in SGGS ji...if you can search for that, then i am sure you can also find shabads where it states the 'intellect' cannot be used to understand Waheguru. Gurbani comes from waheguru...using intellect you will only ever get a finite, defined and limited version of gurbani....when you fall into the mansarovar of waheguru..gurbani opens up at various levels...that is what i have found..and it cannot be described or understood...or comprehended...it is beyond those limits....and i haven;t even scratched the surface of it...
This is just my opinion based on my subjective experience...

The mind is a fantastic tool that we use to get darshan of waheguru...it is a gft...but only when we can control it and focus with Ik MAN. otherwise it just keeps us locked in the maze.

This is my last post on this forum.

i wish you all well my good friends

Chaz Singh - a sikh who is full of Ego,Lust, Anger, Desire and Greed...who is making every effort and crying out to Waheguru to pull me out and carry me across this terrifying world ocean-

over and out...god bless

 

[Ishna]

@chazSingh

I am sorry to hear you are leaving. May your future travels bring your comradery, learning and contentment.

And I apologise; I did indeed misunderstand your post. It makes obvious sense now that you explained it. *blush*

All the best
Ishna

 

[Harry Haller]

I keep forgetting, is this the arguing or info thread

 

[Harry Haller]

"thanks for the suggestion...but my Simran is done alone...at home. i Say 'alone' but i'm never actually 'alone'

oh come on Chazji, you said alone, but you didn't mean alone, is this any way to debate?

why change a winning formula?"

and herein lies the problem, you believe you have the winning formula, whilst I still believe I know very little

you still try to pick at a single sentence and try to slam your fellow 'sangat' member down by claiming i am somehow against having Sangat...did you even read my above comment ?


but that's ok...like i said i am used to it

holier than thou does not suit you, come on stop playing the martyr here, we all dig in, Tejwantji picks at you, you pick at him, I do remember reading what I thought was an olive branch when Tejjyji tried to share with you your love of simran by mentioning his band, if I recall you rubbished it, so come on, lets not get precious here, and that applies to everyone.

and then Harry Ji tries to make out i am SPAM'ing...i mean really...if you don;t like my opinion...move on...

I did not ask to be given a moderating role, I couldn't care less about your opinion, but the definitive statements you made in that post were getting towards spam, trying to sell me something, trying to sell others something, why cannot you just contribute without all the claims?

this is exactly the pack mentality that has made what was once a 'GLOBAL' forum into one that has only 5-6 members regular posters

Well, I have been to other forums, they are quite different to this one, for all your angst, this forum is one of the few that encourages free speech without editing, without deleting, you type it, it appears.
Also, there is no forum line on any of this, merely TOS. I happen to believe in something different than you, it just so happens I also mod, however, I have never had a conflict with these two. As for Tejwantji, he is not even staff! All he is doing is voicing his own opinion and debating, what would you wish I do? Mod his posts so they do not upset anyone? this is the land of the brave and free Chazji, and for that we pay a price, to that end there is much self regulation, self modding here, that we do not actually need a forum moderator, a few people chip in now and then when needed, other than that, the forum runs itself, content here is king.

This is my last post on this forum.

Don't be silly, you are our resident meditation bod, if you leave, then this forum will descend into chaos, 40 days of night, locusts, cats and dogs living together! look, in all seriousness, don't make me beg, you have a valid viewpoint, but surely we can challenge each other?

Chaz Singh - a sikh who is full of Ego,Lust, Anger, Desire and Greed...who is making every effort and crying out to Waheguru to pull me out and carry me across this terrifying world ocean-

and its educational to share it! Its just the 'everyone stop and follow me' bit that does not sit well,

 

[Original]

Tejwant Ji,

remember what i said earlier...that it often comes across that you try to discredit other sangat members by picking at their posts and trying to find what you believe are faults.

this is exactly what you have done here...

even though in my above post i stated "thanks for the suggestion...but my Simran is done alone...at home. i Say 'alone' but i'm never actually 'alone' ...my sangat is at the Gurdwara or online with like minded individuals i have met on this forum and other forums...
why change a winning formula?"

you still try to pick at a single sentence and try to slam your fellow 'sangat' member down by claiming i am somehow against having Sangat...did you even read my above comment ?


but that's ok...like i said i am used to it

it took me back that even Ishna Ji took a single sentence of mine and then tried to make me come across as rude...even though when you read my post the comment was clearly no intended towards anyone on the forum

and then Harry Ji tries to make out i am SPAM'ing...i mean really...if you don;t like my opinion...move on...

this is exactly the pack mentality that has made what was once a 'GLOBAL' forum into one that has only 5-6 members regular posters

Also, well done for finding out how many times the world 'mind' is used in SGGS ji...if you can search for that, then i am sure you can also find shabads where it states the 'intellect' cannot be used to understand Waheguru. Gurbani comes from waheguru...using intellect you will only ever get a finite, defined and limited version of gurbani....when you fall into the mansarovar of waheguru..gurbani opens up at various levels...that is what i have found..and it cannot be described or understood...or comprehended...it is beyond those limits....and i haven;t even scratched the surface of it...
This is just my opinion based on my subjective experience...

The mind is a fantastic tool that we use to get darshan of waheguru...it is a gft...but only when we can control it and focus with Ik MAN. otherwise it just keeps us locked in the maze.

This is my last post on this forum.

i wish you all well my good friends

Chaz Singh - a sikh who is full of Ego,Lust, Anger, Desire and Greed...who is making every effort and crying out to Waheguru to pull me out and carry me across this terrifying world ocean-

over and out...god bless

Chaz

I understand, you being spiritual n constant nit-pick drags down rather than elevates the fragrant ambiance to which you belong. I'm sorry !

As for me I cannot justify the move because I'm not in search, what I have as a pedigree Sikh [passed from father to son from the beginning of time], I share, yes, if you were to leave I will miss you. Brother T n H I love, because they've got their own shades through which they see what they want to see or what they believe to be "reality. In a society like ours that kinda of freedom should be allowed? And, that shouldn't come as surpirse to you coz root town Punjab is full of Baba's with their own interpretations. They've set up their camps accordingly coz they too feel it's too much camouflaged with Vedic, Abrahams, etc. yet despite these differences in interpretation, practices, they remain "believers".

Don't go, your association together with your spiritual wisdom is much a need here than any where else.

In my wakeful life I'm in meetings, conferences, consultations, disputes and what not - and some of the task with Amnesty International are mind blowing. Deep down I feel that warrior spirit that keeps moving for better.

I love you and understand you - wherever you'll be Ill always with you - I'm the Singh n Kaur.

Speak soon - lunchtime for me !

 

[Harry Haller]

lunchtime for me !

what is so special about this time that it is lunchtime? surely anytime is lunchtime!

 

[Original]

what is so special about this time that it is lunchtime? surely anytime is lunchtime!

...when I'm on home turf then its roti off-the-tava, prepared especially for me by my wife. I can breaky with Sharon, dinner with Karen but lunch, yes lunch with Jeeto.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

remember what i said earlier...that it often comes across that you try to discredit other sangat members by picking at their posts and trying to find what you believe are faults.

First of all, I feel saddened that you have decided to leave this forum. You are a great asset to this forum. All families have shouting matches and I am glad we have not gotten to that stage and we wil never be. DIsagreements are solved through discussion. I was asking you about Gurbani and the contradiction you have with it so I can learn from you.

Please show me where I have discredited you and if I have then I will apologise. Sikhi is all about questioning and debating and it starts in Jap ji. I asked you the questions so I can clarify things. I did not accuse you of anything. Different views on the subject/s being discussed are the core aspect for our learning process.

this is exactly what you have done here...
even though in my above post i stated "thanks for the suggestion...but my Simran is done alone...at home. i Say 'alone' but i'm never actually 'alone' ...my sangat is at the Gurdwara or online with like minded individuals i have met on this forum and other forums...
why change a winning formula?"

you still try to pick at a single sentence and try to slam your fellow 'sangat' member down by claiming i am somehow against having Sangat...did you even read my above comment ?

I am sorry to say, I could not find in your posts what is in blue. Could you please direct me to that? Thanks

but that's ok...like i said i am used to it

Used to what? Please elaborate if you can,

it took me back that even Ishna Ji took a single sentence of mine and then tried to make me come across as rude...even though when you read my post the comment was clearly no intended towards anyone on the forum

and then Harry Ji tries to make out i am SPAM'ing...i mean really...if you don;t like my opinion...move on...

Whatever your interaction is with others, I have never interfered in that nor do I intend to. Both, Ishna ji and Harry ji are very capable of having different viewpoints as many do, including both of us and many others. As Harry ji said, I am just another member like you. I am not a moderator and I have seen that this is the only Sikh Forum where no member' goes through any filtration system before the post is even posted.We are all free to post whatever we like to unlike in other Sikh Forums

this is exactly the pack mentality that has made what was once a 'GLOBAL' forum into one that has only 5-6 members regular posters

You are mistaken. Many people here agree and disagree with each other and interact on it. I have had my disagreements with both Ishna ji and Harry ji and we have interacted to clear those and learn from them. When someone/s disagree with you, it is not a pack mentality as you put it. Do you mean when Original Ji agrees with you and post his agreements, would you call that pack mentality?I would not.

I may disagree with his posts which I have and also with many other people, I give my viewpoint based on my understanding on Gurbani.

I do not bully anyone because that is not me. There is another member called LSD who started posting here recently. Most of his posts towards me were bullying and I never responded to his way. Even Original ji noticed that and asked him to tone it down. I wish he/she would post again. I have not seen LSD after his posts.

Also, well done for finding out how many times the world 'mind' is used in SGGS ji...if you can search for that, then i am sure you can also find shabads where it states the 'intellect' cannot be used to understand Waheguru. Gurbani comes from waheguru...using intellect you will only ever get a finite, defined and limited version of gurbani....when you fall into the mansarovar of waheguru..gurbani opens up at various levels...that is what i have found..and it cannot be described or understood...or comprehended...it is beyond those limits....and i haven;t even scratched the surface of it...
This is just my opinion based on my subjective experience...

I am aware of that. This is the reason we interact. You present your views regarding 'intellect' and of any other things from Gurbani that you happen to disagree with,so we can learn from each other. Please post those Gurbani verses with your viewpoint.. This is only learning process in Sikhi that is why Sangat is important and so is Mind according to the SGGS, our only Guru.

The mind is a fantastic tool that we use to get darshan of waheguru...it is a gft...but only when we can control it and focus with Ik MAN. otherwise it just keeps us locked in the maze.

I have no idea what you mean by "darshan of waheguru..," Would you be kind enough to elaborate that for me with examples from Gurbani? I totally agree with you with the rest you mentioned above.

This is my last post on this forum.

i wish you all well my good friends

I am sorry to see that. I wish you would change your mind and visit this forum and others as we all do because every member is an asset here and you are one of the most important assets here because of your different viewpoint. This is the beauty of Sikhi.

Chaz Singh - a sikh who is full of Ego,Lust, Anger, Desire and Greed...who is making every effort and crying out to Waheguru to pull me out and carry me across this terrifying world ocean-

It is not only Chaz Singh but every Sikh is "full of Ego,Lust, Anger, Desire and Greed". This is the reason we Sikhs, o we can seek help from our fellow Sikhs to lasso these enemies who dwell in all of us. We are notcable to kill these enemies within because they are part of the human DNA.

Regards
Tejwant Singh

 

[japjisahib04]

Say 'alone' but i'm never actually 'alone' ...my sangat is at the Gurdwara or online with like minded individuals i have met on this forum and other forums...why change a winning formula?"

Chaz Jee with due respect may I ask you, for truthful living and to be truthful, do gurbani guide us to interact with like minded individuals or the sabd guru. As S. Tejwant Singh found that 'sanghat' word appears 747 times but in order to be sachiar it only guide us repeatedly to make sanghat with sabd guru. Number of people or the general conglomeration at the gurdwara is not sanghat. When gurbani says, 'ਕਬੀਰ ਸਾਕਤ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਕੀਜੀਐ ਦੂਰਹਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਭਾਗਿ ॥ ਬਾਸਨੁ ਕਾਰੋ ਪਰਸੀਐ ਤਉ ਕਛੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਦਾਗੁ ॥੧੩੧॥ it is not labeling anyone faithless and Kabeerji is not advising to stay away from human. He is advising us to keep distance with negative thought and imbibe divine traits.SGGS.1371.9

Further it pained me to hear that you are leaving this forum. I have learned a lot from you, so my request to stay with us.

 

[Original]

Chaz Jee with due respect may I ask you, for truthful living and to be truthful, do gurbani guide us to interact with like minded individuals or the sabd guru. As S. Tejwant Singh found that 'sanghat' word appears 747 times but in order to be sachiar it only guide us repeatedly to make sanghat with sabd guru. Number of people or the general conglomeration at the gurdwara is not sanghat. When gurbani says, 'ਕਬੀਰ ਸਾਕਤ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਕੀਜੀਐ ਦੂਰਹਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਭਾਗਿ ॥ ਬਾਸਨੁ ਕਾਰੋ ਪਰਸੀਐ ਤਉ ਕਛੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਦਾਗੁ ॥੧੩੧॥ it is not labeling anyone faithless and Kabeerji is not advising to stay away from human. He is advising us to keep distance with negative thought and imbibe divine traits.SGGS.1371.9

Further it pained me to hear that you are leaving this form. I have learned a lot from you, so my request to stay with us.

Dear All

I'm honestly touched with the way sympathisers have expressed their gut ache reaction to Chaz's departure [hope you'll read, Chaz] and if I'm allowed a say, it'll be as follows:

Let us act as a Senate [residents of SPN] where our roles remain pretty much passive up and until asked to comment, compliment, criticised, debate, discuss or just mere opinion, then come out guns blazing.

This being a Sikh site so the presumption unquestionably is, we're all believers of Nanak's 1 God. [pls correct me if I'm wrong, although, I'm not particular and take humanity to be what it is with or without God]. As for me, I believe in the God of my forefathers - Sikh

I hope I've not overstepped, just my view.

Goodnight

 

[JourneyOflife]

Hello

Related to Chaz Ji's recent thread on Amrit Vela, and respecting his wish not to derail the thread with speculation about what actually constitutes 'Amrit Vela', I thought I would start a new thread with my thoughts.

To be honest, I don't find any particular focus on pre-dawn/dawn activities in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. When used, the term 'amrit vela' is not defined. "Amrit" means something like 'sweet/ambrosial' and "vela" means "time". In Guru Ji's lifetime, the phrase 'amrit vela' was commonly used to describe pre-dawn, so today we assume that is what Guru Ji meant.

We have sakhis describing the lifestyle of Guru Sahiban, which suggest they themselves did rise early in the morning to take a bath and recite Gurbani.

However, if it was such an important aspect of the philosophy and lifestyle of a Sikh, wouldn't it be emphasised more, and clearly, in the Gurbani?

This brings me to the word "ਉਪਜੰਪਿ"/"Upjmp". Please see this shabad on Panna 228 for full context of the shabad relating to this word.

ਰਾਮਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਰਾਪੈ ਜਾ ਕਾ ॥
Rām nām cẖiṯ rāpai jā kā.
One whose consciousness is permeated with the Lord's Name -

ਉਪਜੰਪਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਕੀਜੈ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥੧॥
Upjamp ḏarsan kījai ṯā kā. ||1||
receive the blessing of his darshan in the early light of dawn. ||1||​

In the above, ਉਪਜੰਪਿ has been translated as 'early light of dawn'. However, another meaning for it is 'silently recite'. In the broader landscape of Gurbani, we continually see this theme of inward recitation and inner jap. Furthermore, the rest of this shabad talks about the Shabad in one's heart.

What are your thoughts regarding the translation of the word?

Thanks

I don't think the translation is one or the other. I don't see why they both can't co-exist at the same time, especially when they don't contradict each other. Getting up in the 'early light of dawn' is not exclusive to 'silently reciting'-I assume throughout the rest of the day- and vice versa. We can do both at the same time.

My quick thoughts on early-morning Amrit Vela: I think it is a positive thing. I'm not saying 3 am to 6 am is a more 'holy' window than the other 21 hours of the day, just that I can see the immense benefit in waking up before the rest of the world and having that personal conversation with your Guru, something which keeps you grounded in Gurbani throughout your day. I am not a regular Amrit Vela Sikh but I thoroughly enjoy the opportunities I do get to perform Nitnem with Sangat in the morning hours, and notice a change in my mood, thoughts and behaviour throughout the rest of the day.]

Of course I wouldn't expect someone who works the night shift to just stop working to read Bani in those hours, not when they could listen to it or be absorbed in the remembrance of Waheguru. But for most people who work a typical 9-5, it is possible to get up a few hours earlier and do the Nitnem, I don't think it is impossible, it is very much doable. But it requires discipline, and maybe that's the entire point of it. To discipline your mind to get up when the people around you are all asleep, wash yourself, change into clean clothes and then sit down to listen to the sacred words of the Guru, the same words that Guru Nanak spent his life singing when he travelled most of the known world on foot, the same words that Guru Arjan Dev Ji meditated on when he was sitting on the hot plate, the same words that Guru Gobind Singh Ji refused to neglect even in the midst of battle, stopping at the banks of the Sirsa river to sing Asa Di Vaar in the early hours of the morning even when the Khalsa was being pursued by the Mughals and Hill Rajas (this is right after the siege at Anandpur), I think to immerse yourself in those words when the world is most silent is a deeply spiritual experience in and of itself. Perhaps it is that discipline and experience that makes those early of the morning so magical.

 

[Ishna]

Thanks for a beautiful post, @JourneyOflife Ji. I think you've encapsulated the whole thing very nicely.

Refocusing and reminding oneself abut what's important in life at the start of one's day seems highly logical. Like checking the tuning on a guitar before playing a song. Whether our day-song starts at 5am or 5pm, the first thing to be done is tuning our instrument (our mind).

 

[ravneet_sb]

Sat Sri Akaal,

"Mrit" is who can die
"Amrit" is "Immortal"

, 'ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

Means

"Moment" when one's "thought process is connected" (thinking) of immortal nature (Amrit Vela) or "Undying Truth" ,

"Truth of Nature" "Sach Naam" "True Name" of "WORDS" which connects ones mind to "Undying Natures Truth"
which is praise of "Lord" / "Nature"

which has given birth to all forms "Living" or "Non Living"


There is No Jat/ Bhapa/ Chuda/ Mazbi/ Hindu/ Muslim/ Christian and
every "Human" or "SIKH" or "Learner" be of any man made caste/ creed/ religion.

Space/ Fire/ Water/ Atoms(Matter)/ Air (Undying Nature) which is cause of life of "Mortals"

Further "GURU's BANI" say

ਸਭੇ ਵੇਲਾ ਵਖਤ ਸਭਿ ਜੇ ਅਠੀ ਭਉ ਹੋਇ ॥
Sabẖe velā vakẖaṯ sabẖ je aṯẖī bẖa▫o ho▫e.
If at all times, at each and every moment, they live in the fear of God -

Have fear of undying nature not mortals.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 

[Original]

"Mrit" is who can die
"Amrit" is "Immortal"

..source would be appreciated, but otherwise, consider this: Mrit [meaning dead, adjective in Punjabi] derived from Mrityu [noun] in Sanskrit is Death. The prefix "A" negates the meaning to effect it as "deathless", that is, "eternal"= Amrit

 

[ravneet_sb]

..source would be appreciated, but otherwise, consider this: Mrit [meaning dead, adjective in Punjabi] derived from Mrityu [noun] in Sanskrit is Death. The prefix "A" negates the meaning to effect it as "deathless", that is, "eternal"= Amrit

Sat Sri Akaal,

Please ignore, reject the contents,

"GURU's BANI" is the only source, and written with own shallow perception.



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

 

[Original]

Sat Sri Akaal,

Please ignore, reject the contents,

"GURU's BANI" is the only source, and written with own shallow perception.



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

Sat Sri Akaal,

Please ignore, reject the contents,

"GURU's BANI" is the only source, and written with own shallow perception.



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.
Click to expand...

Sorry Ravneet Ji - have to depart from your train of thought because "Bani is Guru and Guru is Bani, vich Bani Amrit Saray". God is Bani [waho waho Bani Nirankar ha], removing therefore all agency [perception] interventions. It is the "word" [anhad shabd] and the word is God. The composers of Gurbani used a special form [poetry] of communication to glorify the greatness of God and must accordingly be read within the concise meaning of literature a discipline, attending carefully to its literate and emotional content. However, that is not to say, it is for the bright n beautiful literate lot, far from it, our ancestors were illiterate and yet they remained connected, but the point for the want of clarification is that reading of Guru Ji di Bani requires literary tools to give it proper n concise interpretation with intended meaning and message to the best of one's endeavours. Reading skill therefore is deemed indespensible.

Good day !