this also puzzles me as i never knew how to correctly pronounce this as well and it bothers me because i do not know if i am propagating the word in a correct manner and that if i am teaching the kid the right way to pronounce this. i was to seek help to the older ones i know but then i cam across this post and this has become useful for me.
Correct Pronunciation Of Waheguru
Joni..it doesnt matter...like if you see me across the street and shout...
Hey Gyani....!!!!...or...Hi gyani...Oi Gyani....Hi/Hey/oi are just ATTENTION GETTERS..and the main thing is that I "hear" you and cross the road...
WAH.......is the Hey/the Hi..the Oi....But the Main Thing is the PRAISE..the CALL..to the GURU..the GURU..the Satgur..The CREATOR....and thats whats all about...
Just as HEY-GYANI or OIGYANI is NOT my "Name"..WAH-GURU/WAHEGURU" is Not His Name...His Naam/name is HIS Attributes..His GUR-BANI...which describes those very attributes..which then lead us all to EXCLAIM...WAH WAH WAH WAH>>GURU..GUR...whatever.... Simply shouting/muttering Waheyguru etc or shouting HeyGyani etc is NOT what we want to keep on doing..we all should WANT to BECOME HIM..BECOME BANI..Via His GURBANI..His SHABAD..BY PRACTICAL IMPLEMENTATION of HIS ATTRIBUTES described form Page One of SGGS..the Mool mantar....
Guru Nanak ji brought the SHABD..Guur Gobind Singh ji left us the Shabad..and its the Shabad thats the ESSENCE...GUR...the WAY..and the END..
Hey Gyani....!!!!...or...Hi gyani...Oi Gyani....Hi/Hey/oi are just ATTENTION GETTERS..and the main thing is that I "hear" you and cross the road...
WAH.......is the Hey/the Hi..the Oi....But the Main Thing is the PRAISE..the CALL..to the GURU..the GURU..the Satgur..The CREATOR....and thats whats all about...
Just as HEY-GYANI or OIGYANI is NOT my "Name"..WAH-GURU/WAHEGURU" is Not His Name...His Naam/name is HIS Attributes..His GUR-BANI...which describes those very attributes..which then lead us all to EXCLAIM...WAH WAH WAH WAH>>GURU..GUR...whatever.... Simply shouting/muttering Waheyguru etc or shouting HeyGyani etc is NOT what we want to keep on doing..we all should WANT to BECOME HIM..BECOME BANI..Via His GURBANI..His SHABAD..BY PRACTICAL IMPLEMENTATION of HIS ATTRIBUTES described form Page One of SGGS..the Mool mantar....
Guru Nanak ji brought the SHABD..Guur Gobind Singh ji left us the Shabad..and its the Shabad thats the ESSENCE...GUR...the WAY..and the END..
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In Gurbanee one should realise how the type of matra used in any WORD conveys different meanings of the same word.Therefore there is great significance of correct pronunciation of particular words in Gurbanee.
One can see how significant is the correct use of letters /words in sending the messages thru e -mail,even an ommission of a dot can result in failure of the messages.
Prakash.s.Bagga
One can see how significant is the correct use of letters /words in sending the messages thru e -mail,even an ommission of a dot can result in failure of the messages.
Prakash.s.Bagga
The "problem" being created is in..PRONOUNCIATION.....whereby certain diehards insist on "PRONOUNCING" ALL lagan matras...and strangely KEEP QUIET on the same lagan matras elsewhere....they insist its sah(aunkad) as sahOOOOOOOOOOOO, RahOOOOOOOOO PatshahOOOOOOOOOOOOO....But when the very same aunkadd appears elsewhere they keep it silent..anomaly.
Yes a Missing . in Email cna render the address meaningless and no dleivery..BUT then NO ONE Insists the DOT must be "Pronounced"...its there as a MARKER only...not for saying it ALOUD....
MANY lagan matras are MARKERS ONLY..not for pronounciation aloud.:blueturban:
Yes a Missing . in Email cna render the address meaningless and no dleivery..BUT then NO ONE Insists the DOT must be "Pronounced"...its there as a MARKER only...not for saying it ALOUD....
MANY lagan matras are MARKERS ONLY..not for pronounciation aloud.:blueturban:
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GIYANi JARNAIL SINGH Jeo,
I partially agree to the contents of the message because if we look at a message from Gurbanee as
"GAWIAE SUNIYE MUNi RAHIYE BHAu.....Japji Sahib
This reveals the significance of Pronunciation too.
Suppose I am listening to Gurbanee how can I get the true feeling (Bhau)
of the message if pronunciation is not correct .In Gurbanee the pronunciation as per matra is changing the direction of the meaning.This
should be important to understand
Pronunciation may not be that vital in normal colloqil communication.
You can see we can find even the words of Gurbanee being written without matras too like in english.
With regards
Prakash.s.Bagga
Khalistani_lion
SPNer
- Nov 17, 2005
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WJKK WJKF
Gyani Ji, Lagaan matras are not Markers. Haddan are Markers. Lagaan Matras are Vowels and have an equal importance to pronounce as any other letters. We can't make our own rules to make the same Lag vowel at one place and marker by not pronouncing it at the other place.
WJKK WJKF
Jios,
Hadd is indicated by the DANDEE/DANDEES.........BUT then again Sikhs being much wiser than the GURU..IGNORE these too.......
Prime Example: The FOUR DANDEES (Haddaan) placed BEFORE and AFTER the word
[[ Jap ]]. Dandee after GURPARSAAD ]] indicates HADD...STOP...END.
Did the wise sikhs OBEY this HADD Marker and STOP ?? NO ji..they decided the STOP LIGHT is ONLY for those .."unwise unbrahmgyani simpletons"....the Brahmgyanis, the Mahapurashs, the Sri 1008's all know better....when the simpletons STOP at the DANDEES..we drive right past and thumb our noses at the waiting que...
Nadr with a siharee and nadr with a Biharee occur right next to each other and the word is the Same...but grammatically different. The Biharee needs to be pronounced because its LONG sound...the siharee is short and makes no difference to the sound or meaning.
I have noticed pathis pronouncing SHAH(u) as SHAHOOOOOOOOOO..but when its Jan(u)..they say jan..and not Janoooooooooooo. Shah and jan aunkadds at the end are Markers to indicate Grammar Capital Proper NOUN/plural etc and is not really for pronunciation..otherwise pronounce each aunkadd as LONG OOOOOOOOOO will soon become clear as nonsense.
Hadd is indicated by the DANDEE/DANDEES.........BUT then again Sikhs being much wiser than the GURU..IGNORE these too.......
Prime Example: The FOUR DANDEES (Haddaan) placed BEFORE and AFTER the word
[[ Jap ]]. Dandee after GURPARSAAD ]] indicates HADD...STOP...END.
Did the wise sikhs OBEY this HADD Marker and STOP ?? NO ji..they decided the STOP LIGHT is ONLY for those .."unwise unbrahmgyani simpletons"....the Brahmgyanis, the Mahapurashs, the Sri 1008's all know better....when the simpletons STOP at the DANDEES..we drive right past and thumb our noses at the waiting que...
Nadr with a siharee and nadr with a Biharee occur right next to each other and the word is the Same...but grammatically different. The Biharee needs to be pronounced because its LONG sound...the siharee is short and makes no difference to the sound or meaning.
I have noticed pathis pronouncing SHAH(u) as SHAHOOOOOOOOOO..but when its Jan(u)..they say jan..and not Janoooooooooooo. Shah and jan aunkadds at the end are Markers to indicate Grammar Capital Proper NOUN/plural etc and is not really for pronunciation..otherwise pronounce each aunkadd as LONG OOOOOOOOOO will soon become clear as nonsense.
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It is important to think that the meanings of the word Nadr with matra of sihai and with matra of Biharee are different as their grammar is different.
The word Nadr with matra of Biharee is NOUN whereas the same word With a Matra of Sihari is VERB.
So how the meanings can be same?
Yes,There are words with matra of Sihari with exclusive meaning like the word PRITHAMi (with Sihari) and PRITHAMI(with Bihari).Here these two words have entirely different meanings.The word with Sihari has the meaning as "First" and the word with Biharee has the meaning as"Earth" .
I think that in words with a matra of Sihari with grammar as SINGULAR(Feminine Gender) the avoidance of pronunciation of matra in such words would not change the meanng of particular word.
Therefore one should know the real significance of pronunciation of words with matra od Sihari and Biharee too.This can not be avoided for every word.
Prakash.S.Bagga
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It is important to acquire clear understanding about the role and pronunciation of Gurbanee words with matra of Aukad /Dulaikad and words with matra of Sihari and Biharee.
Simply saying these are not to be pronounced is going to to any good to the correct understanding of Gurbanee.
We should come OUT OF BOX of previous establhed norms about this.
Prakash.S.Bagga
Simply saying these are not to be pronounced is going to to any good to the correct understanding of Gurbanee.
We should come OUT OF BOX of previous establhed norms about this.
Prakash.S.Bagga
The Siharees and aunkadds that are not "pronounced" are there because its POETRY..and POETRY is LIMITED in various ways...unlike Vaartak..PROSE, the writer can write as much as he wishes..but in POETRY such lagaan matras are used to differentiate nouns from verbs and in other ways. Nadr with siharee means HIS Nadr...and nadr with biharee..means IN HIS View/nadr....in Prose the word IN is substituted with Siharee or biharee.
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The great beauty of Gurbanee poetry is this inspite of being in lyric form
its words can be pronounces as per matras so that any one can understand the essence of the message even while listening too.
For one moment if your point of logic is accepted then you would defenitely agree to the fact that these matras do direct the meaning of the particular message.Do we really do so?
Then while writing Gurbanee in Romam transcription we have titally elliminated the indication of these matras then how correctly we can understand or make others to understand Gurbanee correctly it should be a matter of Surprise.
I bring to your kind attention the interpretation of the Quote "GuRu Jahaju KHEWAT GuRU GuR Binu Tariya Naa Koe" if one considers the grammar of the words correctly then the meanings are not what you are mentioning.
Unless it is grammatically understood what is GuRu and GuRU in Gurbanee one can never get true meaning of the Quote at all.
I understand you are a most respectable person in your field .Therefore I expect from a person of your calibre to clear out the clouds of existing
misunderstandings.You have great opportunity to .do so.
We should come out ofour prejudiced view I assure you feel really amazed to say WAHi GuRoo/WAH GuRoo.
Prakash.s.Bagga
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I think we dont need to understand the meanings of Gurbanee as POETRY by converting this into PROSE.By doing so we are bound to deviate from the true meaning of the messages.
I think we should understand Gurbanee the way it is presented.
Prakash.s.Bagga
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GIYANI JARNAIL SINGH Ji,
We can look a quote from Gurbanee as
<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥੩੮॥
नानक नदरी नदरि निहाल ॥३८॥
Nānak naḏrī naḏar nihāl. ||38||
O Nanak, the Merciful Lord, by His Grace, uplifts and exalts them. ||38||
You can see for yourself that
The meaning of the word NADAR with matra of Biharee is ...Merciful LORD and
That for the word NADAR with a matra of Sihari ...is by grace
The meanings are different than the way you are suggesting in your message.
Prakash.s.Bagga
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
We can look a quote from Gurbanee as
<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥੩੮॥
नानक नदरी नदरि निहाल ॥३८॥
Nānak naḏrī naḏar nihāl. ||38||
O Nanak, the Merciful Lord, by His Grace, uplifts and exalts them. ||38||
You can see for yourself that
The meaning of the word NADAR with matra of Biharee is ...Merciful LORD and
That for the word NADAR with a matra of Sihari ...is by grace
The meanings are different than the way you are suggesting in your message.
Prakash.s.Bagga
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Last edited by a moderator:
Khalistani_lion
SPNer
- Nov 17, 2005
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Gyani Jio,
As you are saying Ji that Lagaan Matras are used and written only to differentiate nouns from verbs, then how would the listeners differentiate between these nouns and verbs if they don't listen these lagaa matraa? The listener would only guess if the spoken word is noun or verb, and everyone will guess to serve their own purpose. Without pronunciation of lagaa matraa, either Speaker or the Listener who interprets the spoken words without lagaan is wrong and should be stopped.
Now you tell us who you want to stop, all speakers pronouncing without lagaa matraa or all listeners listening and interpreting it wrong by not knowing if its noun or verb?
ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥੩੮॥
without knowing that their is Sihari to Nadar which makes it verb, the listener would assume its Nadar (noun) if they hear Nadar without Sihari to it. Then the meaning someone assume would be:
O Nanak! merciful Lord's (ਨਦਰ) Grace(noun) gets Nihal.
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We should realise and understand the need of Gurbanee wods as per Form of the words.We should in fact learn how to pronounce the matras we have been avoiding so far.This would be extremely benificial for checking any manipulation of Gurbanee words and interpretation there of.
Prakash.s.Bagga
Prakash.s.Bagga
Khalistani_lion
SPNer
- Nov 17, 2005
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Gyani Jio,
Sorry if I offend you but when you went to Punjabi Primary school in India, didn't they teach that out of total 10 Lagaan, three are short- Mukta, Aunkar, and Sihari? If you did learn that then why would you pronounce Aunkad as long OOOOOOOOOO as you are saying in your posts since beginning of this topic? Since aunkad is Short Lag, its pronounced short (only one O instead of 10 you are saying Ji
. Aunkar pronounced long becomes Dolankar. We need to spend some time differentiating between sounds, only then will we appreciate all lagaan being pronounced. I have done both ways and that's why doing benti here to pronounce all Lagaan and experience the difference yourself. You need to practice Muharni first, the building block of pronunciation before you start pronouncing Lagaan.
Paathi Singhs try to pronounce Lagaan as you are saying in your post Ji, but they can't pronounce all since it needs a lot of practice to pronounce them correctly, and they do as much as they can. We can practice more and pronounce all Lagaan.
Giani Ji, Sikhs are not being wiser than Guru Sahib Ji, they do not know or didn't notice that not stopping on Haddan makes a big difference, nobody told them before. You can ask anyone who is reading this Topic if he/she knew it before? The answer would be no. Similarly, common Punjabi reader do not notice Lagaan to the end letter in Gurbani words. Since Gurbani readers are mostly Punjabi readers who are used to no-Lag-to-last-letter, they read Gurbani as Punjabi assuming Gurbani is punjabi, so most of the time they don't even notice these lagaan let alone correctly pronouncing them.
Bhul Chuk Maaf Karni Ji
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This style of reading Gurbanee by leaving Laga matra is taught right from the very begining Punjabi classes.
I was surprised to see the special instructions at the foot note in preliminary Book of Alphabets of Gurmukhi that the matra of Aukad and Sihari with last letter of the word should not be ponounced.These are the instructions in a book published by Delhi Gurdwara Prabhandhak Commitee.
When our leading organisations are not promoting the things correctly then how one can expect this to learn.This is a childhood educations fault that when we grow up we resist the idea of ponouncing these matras.
This can be improved if we take care of this at different levels of reading Gurmukhi script.This should start from Home level and then at school level ..
Prakash.S.Bagga
I was surprised to see the special instructions at the foot note in preliminary Book of Alphabets of Gurmukhi that the matra of Aukad and Sihari with last letter of the word should not be ponounced.These are the instructions in a book published by Delhi Gurdwara Prabhandhak Commitee.
When our leading organisations are not promoting the things correctly then how one can expect this to learn.This is a childhood educations fault that when we grow up we resist the idea of ponouncing these matras.
This can be improved if we take care of this at different levels of reading Gurmukhi script.This should start from Home level and then at school level ..
Prakash.S.Bagga
Khalistani Lion Jio,
I am not offended..or I would have stopped 50 years ago when i first began writing..becasue i have come across lots of posts, lekhs, friends..polite ones, not so polite ones, rude ones, downright rude and even vulgar ones..BUT i decided that "getting offended" is not an option jios...so rest assured on that point.
2. I didnt go to school in Punjab..I began my education in Malaysia...from my dad who was a pioneer of Punjabi Education in Malaysia..I carry on that tradition and have been teaching Punjabi/Gurmukhi/gurbani with meanings and computers for past 40 years...I graduated form Punjab Univeristy Chandigarh in 1970 with Gyani..as part timer..while completing my English academic Degree in Univeristy of Malaya/Singapore full time...
3. What i wrote is from personally hearing those long oooooooos ..its a fact that can be verified at BHOG TIME...becasue pathis get very up beta when starting the BHOG in Public...so they SHAHpoooooooooand Patshahooooooo with all the gusto they cna muster to impress the listeners..sad but true.
4. The DGMC is RIGHT when it says that many aunkards and siharees are GRAMATICAL MARKERS and not pronounced. Prof Sahib singh clarifies this very well.
Thank you for a refreshing post. keep contributing....
I am not offended..or I would have stopped 50 years ago when i first began writing..becasue i have come across lots of posts, lekhs, friends..polite ones, not so polite ones, rude ones, downright rude and even vulgar ones..BUT i decided that "getting offended" is not an option jios...so rest assured on that point.
2. I didnt go to school in Punjab..I began my education in Malaysia...from my dad who was a pioneer of Punjabi Education in Malaysia..I carry on that tradition and have been teaching Punjabi/Gurmukhi/gurbani with meanings and computers for past 40 years...I graduated form Punjab Univeristy Chandigarh in 1970 with Gyani..as part timer..while completing my English academic Degree in Univeristy of Malaya/Singapore full time...
3. What i wrote is from personally hearing those long oooooooos ..its a fact that can be verified at BHOG TIME...becasue pathis get very up beta when starting the BHOG in Public...so they SHAHpoooooooooand Patshahooooooo with all the gusto they cna muster to impress the listeners..sad but true.
4. The DGMC is RIGHT when it says that many aunkards and siharees are GRAMATICAL MARKERS and not pronounced. Prof Sahib singh clarifies this very well.
Thank you for a refreshing post. keep contributing....
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I will certainly be interested in knowing as where Prof Sahib Singh clarifies for these matras not to pronounced.
What I understand that Prof Sahib singh ji has expressed difficulty in pronouncing these matras but what is happening is that we are not considering the effect of these matras during interpretation of Gurbanee words so this is making the difference.
There are two aspects ONE is Pronunciation of these matras and SECOND
interpretation of Gurbanee words as per these matras.While avoiding ONE we are avoiding Both aspects .
I have also received my education in Gurmukhi with such concepts only but when I thought of these matras then I realised this is something which should be very important
When we consider the use of these matras for interpretation I know the meanings are getting changed what we have established so far.Probably this is the fear that is a bottleneck in giving the importance oto these matrras during interpretation.
With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga
Khalistani_lion
SPNer
- Nov 17, 2005
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1. Giani Ji thanks for the Seva you are doing. You are our Giani Ji, If you won't look outside the box, then how would us who follow your advise ever look outside this box given to us by Prof. Sahib Singh.
2. Learning Punjabi is different from learning Gurbani as I wrote in my last post.
3. I agree with you Gianee Ji that Paathies pronounce long sounds. But it has nothing to do with pronunciation of Lagaan. You are confusing pronunciation of Lagaan with melody paathies create to make it sound good. Kirtiniaa does it too, Do you think Kirtiniaa are pronouncing Lagaan?
4. Dr. Harkirat Singh Linguist from same Patiala university has said we should pronounce all Lagaan Matraa. Pronouncing Lagaan has always been favoured in Damdami Taksal. DGMC and Prof. Sahib Singh Ji has contributed a lot to Sikh community, but can you beleive everything what DGMC and Prof. Sahib Singh say?
Another thought, Every Language could be written while listening to it. But, can we write Gurbani while listening to paathi doing paath without pronouncing Lagaan? Can we even write Mool Mantar, even if we are reading or listening it from years?
If not, what are we missing?
It's the pronunciation of these Lagaan.
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