Correct Pronunciation Of Waheguru

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

A very long time ago...when a Telegraph was the only way to convey a message..every GRAMATICAL INDACATOR was SPELT OUT. Example..I still have the Telegraph that I received form the Uni informing me about my admission. It reads..

Dear Mister Jarnail COMMA Your admission approved STOP Please arrange to make necessary payment STOP Also arrange to bring along the following personal items - bedding COMMA bedspread COMMA comforter COMMA as these are not provided in the hostel STOP Please note that attendance at University is required to pay all fees et cetera STOP

Today that same message would be..Dear Mr. jarnail, Your admission approved.

1. The WORDS COMMA, STOP in the 1960's Telegraphic Message are NOT to be "PRONOUNCED"..they are Grammar Markers and Today we DONT NEED to write them out in FULL becasue we cna just use the ,.,.,. etc. mr. dr. .

2. No English teacher will instruct his students..DONT go around "Pronouncing" the Full stops, commas, inverted commas...as this is understood they are Grammar markers and NOT words.

Gurbani merely uses some lagaan esp aunkadds and siharees as GRAMMAR MARKERS. These are NOT to be pronounced. Prof sahib Singhs Grammar thesis shows which words have pronouncable aunkadds and which dont. In addition Gurbani is poetry..very tightly composed unlike prose which can be very long and winding with everything spelt out in full...and Gurbani has its own special grammar which substitutes lagaan such as aunkad and siharee to indicate grammar, nouns, singular, plural etc. Other Things like COMMAS dont exist in Gurbani and as such a Learner has to LEARN from an experienced Paathi exactly where to PAUSE..stop.short or stop long etc.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

A very long time ago...when a Telegraph was the only way to convey a message..every GRAMATICAL INDACATOR was SPELT OUT. Example..I still have the Telegraph that I received form the Uni informing me about my admission. It reads..

Dear Mister Jarnail COMMA Your admission approved STOP Please arrange to make necessary payment STOP Also arrange to bring along the following personal items - bedding COMMA bedspread COMMA comforter COMMA as these are not provided in the hostel STOP Please note that attendance at University is required to pay all fees et cetera STOP

Today that same message would be..Dear Mr. jarnail, Your admission approved.

1. The WORDS COMMA, STOP in the 1960's Telegraphic Message are NOT to be "PRONOUNCED"..they are Grammar Markers and Today we DONT NEED to write them out in FULL becasue we cna just use the ,.,.,. etc. mr. dr. .

2. No English teacher will instruct his students..DONT go around "Pronouncing" the Full stops, commas, inverted commas...as this is understood they are Grammar markers and NOT words.

Gurbani merely uses some lagaan esp aunkadds and siharees as GRAMMAR MARKERS. These are NOT to be pronounced. Prof sahib Singhs Grammar thesis shows which words have pronouncable aunkadds and which dont. In addition Gurbani is poetry..very tightly composed unlike prose which can be very long and winding with everything spelt out in full...and Gurbani has its own special grammar which substitutes lagaan such as aunkad and siharee to indicate grammar, nouns, singular, plural etc. Other Things like COMMAS dont exist in Gurbani and as such a Learner has to LEARN from an experienced Paathi exactly where to PAUSE..stop.short or stop long etc.

If we had experienced Pathis familiar with the correct application of grammatical indications ,then probably we would not be sharing this subject at all.

We have punjabi classes almost in every Gurdwara and such expirieced Pathi can guide the students right from the begining.

But I have yet to come across an expirienced Pathi .

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

PSbagga ji..
Are you not an experienced pathi ?? I thought you are the most experienced if ever there was one..do keep teaching the less experienced ones..

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

PSbagga ji..
Are you not an experienced pathi ?? I thought you are the most experienced if ever there was one..do keep teaching the less experienced ones..

You have really bolded me out thru your wordings and I am only a little Das/Sewak of GuRu Nanak least I should feel elated.May Sati GuRu help me. We all can learn by understanding our GuRu only.We as Sudents can only share and respect the messages of our GuRu.
Giyani Ji,I fully understand the difficulty in pronunciation of the vowels related to matra of Aukad and Sihari.My Teacher for Gurmkhi was also Giyani Santokh Singh ji Now I recollect some of his words in this connection.
Nevertheless we should not make Gurbanee a running matter where the basic essence of Gurbanee message of Gurbanee is getting confused.How to ensure this? My concern is more for this aspect.
If we can ensure correct interpretation of Gurbanee words without giving any significance to pronunciation, this is also wecome.But this seems to be most difficult.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Khalistani_lion]

A very long time ago...when a Telegraph was the only way to convey a message..every GRAMATICAL INDACATOR was SPELT OUT. Example..I still have the Telegraph that I received form the Uni informing me about my admission. It reads..

Dear Mister Jarnail COMMA Your admission approved STOP Please arrange to make necessary payment STOP Also arrange to bring along the following personal items - bedding COMMA bedspread COMMA comforter COMMA as these are not provided in the hostel STOP Please note that attendance at University is required to pay all fees et cetera STOP

Today that same message would be..Dear Mr. jarnail, Your admission approved.

1. The WORDS COMMA, STOP in the 1960's Telegraphic Message are NOT to be "PRONOUNCED"..they are Grammar Markers and Today we DONT NEED to write them out in FULL becasue we cna just use the ,.,.,. etc. mr. dr. .

2. No English teacher will instruct his students..DONT go around "Pronouncing" the Full stops, commas, inverted commas...as this is understood they are Grammar markers and NOT words.

Gurbani merely uses some lagaan esp aunkadds and siharees as GRAMMAR MARKERS. These are NOT to be pronounced. Prof sahib Singhs Grammar thesis shows which words have pronouncable aunkadds and which dont. In addition Gurbani is poetry..very tightly composed unlike prose which can be very long and winding with everything spelt out in full...and Gurbani has its own special grammar which substitutes lagaan such as aunkad and siharee to indicate grammar, nouns, singular, plural etc. Other Things like COMMAS dont exist in Gurbani and as such a Learner has to LEARN from an experienced Paathi exactly where to PAUSE..stop.short or stop long etc.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!

Of course markers are not to be pronounced. Haddan is STOP, we don't say haddan. Shabad Numbers are markers to give the count of Shabads, we don't pronounce them. Rahau tells to PAUSE.
1. But don't you think here we are confusing markers with Lagaan (Vowels) or is it being said deliberately?

2. What's your source of calling markers to 10 Lagaan?

You can check Patiala University's website, they are not markers but vowels:
http://www.learnpunjabi.org/intro1.asp

Kabit Bhai Gurdas Ji:

ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੋਟਾਨਿ ਬਖਾਨ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਗਵਤ ਬੇਦ ਬਿਆਕਰਨ ਗੀਤਾ ।
If all the 31 Simrities, 18 Purans, Bhagvad Geeta, four Vedas and their grammar become millions and speak,

ਸੇਸ ਮਰਜੇਸ ਅਖਲੇਸ ਸੁਰ ਮਹੇਸ ਮੁਨ ਜਗਤੁ ਅਰ ਭਗਤਿ ਸੁਰ ਨਰ ਅਤੀਤਾ।
If Shesh Nag of thousands of tongues, Dharamraj, Kuber and other gods, Shiva and hermits and saints of the whole world, noble men get together in millions and speak;

ਗਿਆਨ ਅਰ ਧਿਆਨ ਉਨਮਾਨ ਉਨਮਨ ਉਕਤਿ ਰਾਗ ਨਾਦਿ ਦਿਜ ਸੁਰਮਤਿ ਨੀਤਾ।
If seekers of many type of knowledge, contemplations and wise men who discuss various subjects, people of higher spiritual state, who can speak about various skills, all the Ragas and their seven notes, various knowledgeable scholars like Vashisht, goddess Saraswati keep prasing everyday the glory of Guru Ji's Shabad Gurbani,

ਅਰਧ ਲਗ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ ਗੁਰਸਬਦ ਅਖਰ ਮੇਕ ਅਗਮ ਅਤਿ ਅਗਮ ਅਗਾਧਿ ਮੀਤਾ ॥੫੪੦॥
O friend! all the above will fall woefully short of saying the praise of a (ਅਰਧ ਲਗ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ) half a Vowel of (ਗੁਰਸਬਦ) Gurbani Ji. The significance of Guru's words is beyond the extent of all knowledge.

Who are we or Prof. Sahib Singh to say that (ਲਗ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ) Lagaan of Gurbani are insignificant and are there only to describe grammar?

and in future, Scholars like you Giani Ji would even suggest to eliminate them from Gurbani as you are already pointing towards it in your post above.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

If Laga matras are grammar how these can be considered insignificant.This fact
on the contrary becomes more important to understand.
Even in a quote Kabir Das ji refers as"APAN Ko DEERGH KAR JANE AURAN Ko LAG MAT"

Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Would any one suggest that the CAPITAL Letter to signify Proper Noun be scrapped ?? That its pointless and all should just write in small letters (Btw ALL CAPITALS is taken to mean SHOUTING..which is a NEW phenomenon in the world of English as a modern Internet language..as earlier ALL CAPITALS didnt mean shouting but just EMPHASIS !!

NO one least of all prof Sahib Singh ji is saying..SCRAP ALL LAGAN matras..what a ridiculous suggestion... What we are simply saying is that CERTAIN Aunkadds and Siharees ( ONLY) are being used as Capital letters are used in English. No one si remotel;y suggesting that ALL lagan matras all vowels etc should be scrapped..how ridiculous is that.

This Lagna Matran DEBATE is actually a DEEP SEATED CONSPIRACY by the RSS Hindutva trained Brigaed....a certain Tamil professor was given a HUGE GRANT of a few Kror rupees to do essentially the JOB of MUTILATING SGGS by PHYSICALLY CUTTING OUT ALL lagaan matrans...only by a fortunate accident he was EXPOSED and sacked from this Project. He had used a Sharp Blade to cut out ALL siharees, biharees, aunkadds, dulaknads, dulavan lavan kanas etc etc as IRRELEVANT !!.

Having FAILED miserably in that First attempt..NOW the SECOND LINE of attack is to keep this so called Gur-Gur(u)..sat(i)gur(u) ..Naam and Naam(u) Sabad and Sabad(u)..etc etc..charade up at all costs..so the rss agents keep labouring at it hoping to CONFUSE and SIDE TRACK us all.

Dass is no scholar and has written all i know already..just go back and read it. I have NOTHING MORE to add to this totally irrelevant discussion. I beleive Ambarsariah veer has also done his best to untangle this uljhee tanni..but peoples keep placing knots or repeating knots over and over.. Thank You.

2. Bhai Gurdass ji uses a lot of METAPHOR...we have to read between the lines...in another palce he writes.. The PHALL of teaching one Shabad to a person is equivalent to Daan of FIVE mandirs of GOLD. Not everyone has the RESOURCES to DAAN Five mandirs of Gold...nay not even half a mandir...BUT even nimanney people like me have taught the entire SGGS to HUNDREDS...so How many GOLD Mandirs have I donated ??...looking at a few THOUSAND Shabds in SGGS ?? I hardly pay my monthly DASWANDH and its certainly not even 10 grammes of GOLD.....BUT Bhai Gurdass says different !!!

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Would any one suggest that the CAPITAL Letter to signify Proper Noun be scrapped ?? That its pointless and all should just write in small letters (Btw ALL CAPITALS is taken to mean SHOUTING..which is a NEW phenomenon in the world of English as a modern Internet language..as earlier ALL CAPITALS didnt mean shouting but just EMPHASIS !!

NO one least of all prof Sahib Singh ji is saying..SCRAP ALL LAGAN matras..what a ridiculous suggestion... What we are simply saying is that CERTAIN Aunkadds and Siharees ( ONLY) are being used as Capital letters are used in English. No one si remotel;y suggesting that ALL lagan matras all vowels etc should be scrapped..how ridiculous is that.

This Lagna Matran DEBATE is actually a DEEP SEATED CONSPIRACY by the RSS Hindutva trained Brigaed....a certain Tamil professor was given a HUGE GRANT of a few Kror rupees to do essentially the JOB of MUTILATING Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by PHYSICALLY CUTTING OUT ALL lagaan matrans...only by a fortunate accident he was EXPOSED and sacked from this Project. He had used a Sharp Blade to cut out ALL siharees, biharees, aunkadds, dulaknads, dulavan lavan kanas etc etc as IRRELEVANT !!.

Having FAILED miserably in that First attempt..NOW the SECOND LINE of attack is to keep this so called Gur-Gur(u)..sat(i)gur(u) ..Naam and Naam(u) Sabad and Sabad(u)..etc etc..charade up at all costs..so the rss agents keep labouring at it hoping to CONFUSE and SIDE TRACK us all.

Dass is no scholar and has written all i know already..just go back and read it. I have NOTHING MORE to add to this totally irrelevant discussion. I beleive Ambarsariah veer has also done his best to untangle this uljhee tanni..but peoples keep placing knots or repeating knots over and over.. Thank You.

2. Bhai Gurdass ji uses a lot of METAPHOR...we have to read between the lines...in another palce he writes.. The PHALL of teaching one Shabad to a person is equivalent to Daan of FIVE mandirs of GOLD. Not everyone has the RESOURCES to DAAN Five mandirs of Gold...nay not even half a mandir...BUT even nimanney people like me have taught the entire Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to HUNDREDS...so How many GOLD Mandirs have I donated ??...looking at a few THOUSAND Shabds in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ?? I hardly pay my monthly DASWANDH and its certainly not even 10 grammes of GOLD.....BUT Bhai Gurdass says different !!!

I am sorry to say this message is not giving clear picture of the state of affairs.So long as nothing comes from either SGPC or other organisations which are SUPREME for us nothing should be expected .
So I think the subject matter is very clear to those who dont want to accept the pronunciation of Aukad and Sihari vowels and on the other side those who advocate for the pronunciation.
The majority is for not to pronounce so let us honour the majority and I think this subject does not require any further interaction .
Better we get to a new one.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Ambarsaria]

I am sorry to say this message is not giving clear picture of the state of affairs.So long as nothing comes from either SGPC or other organisations which are SUPREME for us nothing should be expected .
So I think the subject matter is very clear to those who dont want to accept the pronunciation of Aukad and Sihari vowels and on the other side those who advocate for the pronunciation.
The majority is for not to pronounce so let us honour the majority and I think this subject does not require any further interaction .
Better we get to a new one.
Prakash.S.Bagga

Prakash.S.Bagga or I would like to characterize your posts almost all of them as "lagaan and matra". Can you please elaborate what the right meanings are rather than just keep repeating or flagging what is wrong.

I thought in another post you so emphatically declared to stop this dis-respectful mode of disruption and pseudo Grammar of yours.

Positively, What do you understand the difference between :Waheguroo and Wahiguru or ny other English style of writing it?

When I say or think Waheguru I think "Wonderful One Creator" and all the rest that is stated and encouraged learning through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

What is important to you the understanding and what your inner self thinks or what your lips put out? Even a "goongah"/mute will understand without ability to speak.

Focus on the inner self brother you are too much caught in declaring all to be wrong, the weeds and missing the good that is around in others.

Please also stop using the global "WE" in your statements like "WE don't understand ....", etc., and keep it to yourself. Similarly you use unless "THEY" as in some phantom place and collective do something nothing will work? If that is the case I don't see any point in your posts and you might as well not post and wait for "THEY" to do their job. Go out of Ludhiana to Amritsar and talk to so called "THEY". Your flagged "THEY" are not too far from you. If not, start contributing and stop complaining.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Prakash.S.Bagga or I would like to characterize your posts almost all of them as "lagaan and matra". Can you please elaborate what the right meanings are rather than just keep repeating or flagging what is wrong.

I thought in another post you so emphatically declared to stop this dis-respectful mode of disruption and pseudo Grammar of yours.

Positively, What do you understand the difference between :Waheguroo and Wahiguru or ny other English style of writing it?

When I say or think Waheguru I think "Wonderful One Creator" and all the rest that is stated and encouraged learning through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

What is important to you the understanding and what your inner self thinks or what your lips put out? Even a "goongah"/mute will understand without ability to speak.

Focus on the inner self brother you are too much caught in declaring all to be wrong, the weeds and missing the good that is around in others.

Please also stop using the global "WE" in your statements like "WE don't understand ....", etc., and keep it to yourself. Similarly you use unless "THEY" as in some phantom place and collective do something nothing will work? If that is the case I don't see any point in your posts and you might as well not post and wait for "THEY" to do their job. Go out of Ludhiana to Amritsar and talk to so called "THEY". Your flagged "THEY" are not too far from you. If not, start contributing and stop complaining.

Sat Sri Akal.

For your kind information THere is no word in Gurbanee to be considered as Waheguru so you are the first required to rectify for this blunder you are committing.Since this word as Waheguru does not exist in Gurbanee so I cant give any meaning to this word.
The correct word is Wahiguru (if you consider Guru for Gur with matra of Dulakad)....It has the meaning which you may not agree because you dont believe in grammar of gurbanee words.

I can remind you a good song and listen to this for sure..Piyar Aankho se jataya to Buraa man Gaye.'

When I read your message I do enjoy a quote as Habits are hard to die.

With best wishes and thanking for your wonderful remarks

Prakash.s.bagga

 

[Khalistani_lion]

I am sorry to say this message is not giving clear picture of the state of affairs.So long as nothing comes from either SGPC or other organisations which are SUPREME for us nothing should be expected .
So I think the subject matter is very clear to those who dont want to accept the pronunciation of Aukad and Sihari vowels and on the other side those who advocate for the pronunciation.
The majority is for not to pronounce so let us honour the majority and I think this subject does not require any further interaction .
Better we get to a new one.
Prakash.S.Bagga

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!
I do not agree with you on this one. This is like saying if majority thinks that Earth is flat, let's honour the majority and keep saying that Earth is flat.
When talking about pronounciation of Lagaan Matraa, we should also take into consideration the fact that few years ago from now, people were mostly illiterate or knew Shahmukhi only. Gurbani was only being taught in religious institutions (Dera if I put it in Prof. Sahib S. Ji’s words). Then after independence, Punjabi started in Punjab schools and more people start going to schools (Please correct me if I am wrong here). Proper pronunciation of Punjabi is taught in “Primary Schools” to kids and after early schooling, nobody even care about pronunciation. I remember when we were in Grade 7 in Punjab, one of our teacher asked if anybody knows full OORA AIRA (Punabi Pentee) and in our class nobody knew it. You guys know more than me that how much do Punjabi teachers care about proper pronunciation of Lagaan? So, from early education, in our schools, subconsciously we are taught that these Lagaan do not have much importance. You can test any M.A. in Punjabi to read Gurbani and check his pronunciation yourself. Let alone pronunciation, most of them would not even know how many Lagaan are there in total. So, this not caring about Lagaan was already there when Prof. Sahib Singh Ji wrote Gurbani Viakaran books. Prof. Ji himself unable to speak Lagaan as most of Punjabi scholars and already acceptance in the society of not pronouncing them, made them assume that they are for Grammar purpose only. Did Prof. Ji even write it down anywhere that we should not pronounce Lagaan? (Giani Ji, Please if you can enlighten us here?)
Punjabi scholars can’t even pronounce Lagaan inside the word, Dolaan is pronounced as Laan in most of the Kirtan. You can even check Prof. Darshan S Kirtan. Now, would be start following them on this too?
S. Parkash Singh Ji you are more experienced than Daas, what are your views on why should we pronounce all Lagaan as they are written?

 

[Ambarsaria]

Praksash.S.Bagga ji you get so excited in finding faults that you forget to check your own post logic or consistency

For your kind information THere is no word in Gurbanee to be considered as Waheguru so you are the first required to rectify for this blunder you are committing.

Pay attention to the thread. It is not Gurmat Vichhar. If the thread word under discussion is not part of Gurbani tell me what Grammar applies to it. Punjabi Grammar would be found to be the answer. Ask a Primary School teacher they will pronounce it and you can report it back. See also post by Khalistani Lion ji as I have no idea where you went to school to study Punjabi as much kind of nonsense you talk about is not even a matter at issue if you taken Punjabi classes at a good School and a good teacher and there were many around and perhaps still are.

Since this word as Waheguru does not exist in Gurbanee so I cant give any meaning to this word.

Another bunch of nonsense. Are you saying there are no words in Punjabi outside of Gurbani and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Who said or asked you to give Gurbani meaning even though for me Punjabi meaning and Gurbani meanings are not different but I think you want to kill this synergy or loving relationship.

The correct word is Wahiguru (if you consider Guru for Gur with matra of Dulakad)....It has the meaning which you may not agree because you dont believe in grammar of gurbanee words.

The thread starter did not ask you for correct word. Asked you to pronounce Waheguru. It is easily pronounced as written. If different versions in Punjabi are spelled out these can be sounded out accordingly. Pronunciation or phonetics is straightforward.

Much ado about nothing.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS:

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ਪੰਨਾ 1402, ਸਤਰ 11
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥
vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o.
Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o.
ਭਟ ਗਯੰਦ - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

ਪੰਨਾ 1402, ਸਤਰ 14
ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥੬॥
सति साचु स्री निवासु आदि पुरखु सदा तुही वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥१॥६॥
Saṯ sācẖ sarī nivās āḏ purakẖ saḏā ṯuhī vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o. ||1||6||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||1||6||
ਭਟ ਗਯੰਦ - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

ਪੰਨਾ 1403, ਸਤਰ 12
ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥
सेवक कै भरपूर जुगु जुगु वाहगुरू तेरा सभु सदका ॥
Sevak kai bẖarpūr jug jug vāhgurū ṯerā sabẖ saḏkā.
Your servants are totally fulfilled, throughout the ages; O Waahay Guru, it is all You, forever.
ਭਟ ਗਯੰਦ - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

 

[Khalistani_lion]

Prakash.S.Bagga or I would like to characterize your posts almost all of them as "lagaan and matra". Can you please elaborate what the right meanings are rather than just keep repeating or flagging what is wrong.

I thought in another post you so emphatically declared to stop this dis-respectful mode of disruption and pseudo Grammar of yours.

Positively, What do you understand the difference between :Waheguroo and Wahiguru or ny other English style of writing it?

When I say or think Waheguru I think "Wonderful One Creator" and all the rest that is stated and encouraged learning through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

What is important to you the understanding and what your inner self thinks or what your lips put out? Even a "goongah"/mute will understand without ability to speak.

Focus on the inner self brother you are too much caught in declaring all to be wrong, the weeds and missing the good that is around in others.

Please also stop using the global "WE" in your statements like "WE don't understand ....", etc., and keep it to yourself. Similarly you use unless "THEY" as in some phantom place and collective do something nothing will work? If that is the case I don't see any point in your posts and you might as well not post and wait for "THEY" to do their job. Go out of Ludhiana to Amritsar and talk to so called "THEY". Your flagged "THEY" are not too far from you. If not, start contributing and stop complaining.

Sat Sri Akal.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!
Ambarsaria Veer, we are just doing Vichar. You guys are Gurmukh, getting your help to clear up my doubts. Gurbani is my Guru, I give it utmost respect. Guru Sahib Ji has written each Lag Matra for me to read and pronounce, so its my duty and respect to take care of every Lag Matra along with the meaning.
To clear up that Daas is not arguing about whether to spell Waheguroo or Wahiguru in English. What Daas is saying is that Gurbani should be pronounced as written by Guru Sahib Ji since all Lagaan Matraa have unique sound and could be pronounced with just a little more effort than we put into learning pronouncing Gurbani Ji without Lagaan Matraa.
Pronouncing Gurbani with all Lagaa Matraa would not only make it being pronounced completely but also help the listener to interpret it correctly according to Grammar. Gurbani Ji according to Grammar concept is invented by Prof. Sahib Singh Ji and that’s when we established the thought that Lagaan are to describe Grammar only and need not be pronounced. Now Daas’s question is What would have been Singhs doing before Prof. Ji? Now, Prof. Ji tells us where to pronounce Lag and where not, what about Guru Sahib Ji’s time before Prof. Sahib S?
Dr. Harkirat Singh (Linguist, Patiala University), who has same qualification as Prof Sahib Singh Ji has done his research and written a book saying all Lagaan should be pronounced. If we follow Sahib Singh Ji’s principal (all Lagaan need not be pronounced), than Dr. Harkirat Singh Ji should also be heard.
Beside that pronunciation of Lagaan was highly favored in Damdami Taksal, old Gurbani School.

Akaal

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Praksash.S.Bagga ji you get so excited in finding fault sthat you forget to check your own post logic or consistency
Pay attention to the thread. It is not Gurmat Vichhar. If the thread word under discussion is not part of Gurbani tell me what Grammar applies to it. Punjabi Grammar would be found to be the answer. Ask a Primary School teacher they will pronounce it and you can report it back. See also post by Khalistani Lion ji as I have no idea where you went to school to study Punjabi as much kind of nonsense you talk about is not even a matter at issue if you taken Punjabi classes at a good School and a good teacher and there were many around and perhaps still are.

Another bunch of nonsense. Are you saying there are no words in Punjabi outside of Gurbani and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Who said or asked you to give Gurbani meaning even though for me Punjabi a meaning and Gurbani meanings are not different but I think you want to kill this synergy or loving relationship.
The thread starter did not ask you for correct word. Asked you to pronounce Waheguru. It is easily pronounced as written. If different versions in Punjabi are spelled out these can be sounded out accordingly. Pronunciation or phonetics is straightforward.

Much ado about nothing.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS:

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1403&punjabi=t&id=59632#l59632

You can see for yourself where is the word like Waheguru.? The word written with letter V is absolutley Correct as per Gurmukhi words given in SGGS.This you had depicted ealier too.

I must always salute to your views .You are very expert in creating something out of nothing.You are really great.
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[Ambarsaria]

Khalistani_lion ji thanks for your post.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!
Ambarsaria Veer, we are just doing Vichar. You guys are Gurmukh, getting your help to clear up my doubts. Gurbani is my Guru, I give it utmost respect. Guru Sahib Ji has written each Lag Matra for me to read and pronounce, so its my duty and respect to take care of every Lag Matra along with the meaning.
To clear up that Daas is not arguing about whether to spell Waheguroo or Wahiguru in English. What Daas is saying is that Gurbani should be pronounced as written by Guru Sahib Ji since all Lagaan Matraa have unique sound and could be pronounced with just a little more effort than we put into learning pronouncing Gurbani Ji without Lagaan Matraa.
Pronouncing Gurbani with all Lagaa Matraa would not only make it being pronounced completely but also help the listener to interpret it correctly according to Grammar. Gurbani Ji according to Grammar concept is invented by Prof. Sahib Singh Ji and that’s when we established the thought that Lagaan are to describe Grammar only and need not be pronounced. Now Daas’s question is What would have been Singhs doing before Prof. Ji? Now, Prof. Ji tells us where to pronounce Lag and where not, what about Guru Sahib Ji’s time before Prof. Sahib S?
Dr. Harkirat Singh (Linguist, Patiala University), who has same qualification as Prof Sahib Singh Ji has done his research and written a book saying all Lagaan should be pronounced. If we follow Sahib Singh Ji’s principal (all Lagaan need not be pronounced), than Dr. Harkirat Singh Ji should also be heard.
Beside that pronunciation of Lagaan was highly favored in Damdami Taksal, old Gurbani School.Akaal

When I studied Punjabi I was taught to pronounce all and everything as accents, lagaans, matras, etc. So may be I am assuming that all had this training and many may have different or no such training. Such people need to go back to school and discussing a word here or there ad nausea is not going to help. The word may be this thread or any other word.

I can pronounce any word as written in Punjabi without thinking too hard.

How so much gets made out of so little is beyond me.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Ambarsaria]

You can see for yourself where is the word like Waheguru.? The word written with letter V is absolutley Correct as per Gurmukhi words given in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.This you had depicted ealier too.

I must always salute to your views .You are very expert in creating something out of nothing.You are really great.
Prakash.s.Bagga

Prakash.S.Bagga ji let us work within our area of knowledge and know how. Your use of Capitals and lower case as a way to create phonetics from Punjabi to English is junk. Phonetics between Languages is not that simple or always possible. I have no expertise in Phonetics through Academic training and I have to suppose you have none. Rest is just empty talk and empty claims. I never comment on Phonetics but I generally commend Dr. Thind's effort. It is not perfect but way better tha your upper or lower case approach which is a non-starter but you keep dwelling on it.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!
I do not agree with you on this one. This is like saying if majority thinks that Earth is flat, let's honour the majority and keep saying that Earth is flat.
When talking about pronounciation of Lagaan Matraa, we should also take into consideration the fact that few years ago from now, people were mostly illiterate or knew Shahmukhi only. Gurbani was only being taught in religious institutions (Dera if I put it in Prof. Sahib S. Ji’s words). Then after independence, Punjabi started in Punjab schools and more people start going to schools (Please correct me if I am wrong here). Proper pronunciation of Punjabi is taught in “Primary Schools” to kids and after early schooling, nobody even care about pronunciation. I remember when we were in Grade 7 in Punjab, one of our teacher asked if anybody knows full OORA AIRA (Punabi Pentee) and in our class nobody knew it. You guys know more than me that how much do Punjabi teachers care about proper pronunciation of Lagaan? So, from early education, in our schools, subconsciously we are taught that these Lagaan do not have much importance. You can test any M.A. in Punjabi to read Gurbani and check his pronunciation yourself. Let alone pronunciation, most of them would not even know how many Lagaan are there in total. So, this not caring about Lagaan was already there when Prof. Sahib Singh Ji wrote Gurbani Viakaran books. Prof. Ji himself unable to speak Lagaan as most of Punjabi scholars and already acceptance in the society of not pronouncing them, made them assume that they are for Grammar purpose only. Did Prof. Ji even write it down anywhere that we should not pronounce Lagaan? (Giani Ji, Please if you can enlighten us here?)
Punjabi scholars can’t even pronounce Lagaan inside the word, Dolaan is pronounced as Laan in most of the Kirtan. You can even check Prof. Darshan S Kirtan. Now, would be start following them on this too?
S. Parkash Singh Ji you are more experienced than Daas, what are your views on why should we pronounce all Lagaan as they are written?

My understanding is that if lagaan matras are not pronounced we will not be able to understand the meaning of that particular message.
I have realised by the grace of GuRu that These maras are very significant as these matras give direction for the meanings of the words.
Secondly their pronunciation is more important while listening to Gurbanee.If we dont pronounce properly the Gurbanee would simply appear as running matter only.and the listener may never be getting the understanding of true message which should be important for everyone.
This is what I feel about the effect of Laga matras for correct understanding of Gurbanee.
I may pl be corrected for any mistake or wrong understanding at my end.

Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

The Confusion being created is by inserting the word "ALL" when thats a utterly ridiculous suggestion. NO one is suggesting ALL lagaan matran be not pronounced. How can anyone read correctly IF he/she disregards ALL lagaan matran.

Gurbani has been written with Grammatical Matran ( certain aunkadds and siharees ONLY.. NOT ALL aunkadds or siharees are grammar markers) Dh tatto rallaun walleh keep syaing..ALL all all where did prof sahib singh say ALL ?? etc etc..OF Course prof sahib singh and everyone else including ME never said ALL..it makes no sense..

There are also certain vested interests who try and raise such confusion so ordinary sikhs will think..Gurbani is very confusing..difficult..why do paap..let the Pathi do the paath...Some insist ONLY Lareedaar writing is correct...when Lareedaar paath is ONLY for the experienced..learners can and should begin on SEPARATED Paath..That insistence is also an attempt to MONOPOLISE GURBANI and keep it away form interested sikhs....Lets NOT FORGET that TODAY many MILLIONS actually depend on GURBANI/SGGS to EARN A LIVING....Paaths are being SOLD for sums as big as 51,000 Rupees EACH....and its BIG MULTI MILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS...LONG QUES for "Paath BOOKING" exist in Almost ALL GURDWARAS worldwide...hundreds of thousands of paaths are going on daily...and ALL GENERATE vast sums of CASH....and of course lots of people wnat to MUSCLE IN and MONOPOLISE such readings..one prime Example is the NANAKSAREE DERAS..who apart from this lagaan matran thing have also introduced their own WEIRD Formulas into paath reading..which ONLY NANAKSAREES teach and practise...hence ensuring ONLY a Nanaksaree follower will do such paaths....

IF a kirtaniyah mispronounces Gurbani..its his LOSS...why we have to follow him ?? BUT if we criticize him..we should be able to do kirtan better than him..right ?? mnay love to simply ADD certain words into the Original Shabads..others simply EAT UP/SWALLOW certain words..others lay undue stress on certain words...others pause at places where there is NO RAHAO..and Go through rahao as if speeding thru RED LIGHT.. DO WHAT IS RIGHT. PERIOD. remain TRUE to our GURU..not Humans.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

The contribution of all our previous scholars is greatly appreciable.
Prof Sahib Singh ji emphatically brought in limelight the applicability of grammar of words in Gurbanee .He did a great Job.
Prof Sahib Singh in his Gurbanee Viyakaran Book gives a good cosolidated account of understanding the grammar of words.But surprisingly in his interpretation of Gurbanee he can be found very selective and resrvative in application of grammar as a whole.
Next Dr Harkeerat Singh is a step ahead to point out about the applicabilty of grammar in totto as envisaged by PRof Sahib Singh ji.
There fore we should take into consideration the contribution of both to assess the utility of grammar as a whole in Gurbanee.
This is a good excercise for the benifit of all connected with SGGS.I think there is need to share this in a positve atmosphere of thinking and without being prejudiced

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Ambarsaria]

The contribution of all our previous scholars is greatly appreciable.
Prof Sahib Singh ji emphatically brought in limelight the applicability of grammar of words in Gurbanee .He did a great Job.
Prof Sahib Singh in his Gurbanee Viyakaran Book gives a good cosolidated account of understanding the grammar of words.But surprisingly in his interpretation of Gurbanee he can be found very selective and resrvative in application of grammar as a whole.
Next Dr Harkeerat Singh is a step ahead to point out about the applicabilty of grammar in totto as envisaged by PRof Sahib Singh ji.
There fore we should take into consideration the contribution of both to assess the utility of grammar as a whole in Gurbanee.
This is a good excercise for the benifit of all connected with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.I think there is need to share this in a positve atmosphere of thinking and without being prejudiced

Prakash.S.Bagga

Great idea brother.

Put your money where your mouth is. Do one complete shabad example of your own understanding with the above guidance you have given!

Otherwise it is not worth the keystrokes that you typed for the message. cheerleader

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: While you are at it do the phonetics with all the right accents too lol. Otherwise it is all empty word meant to distract and put down everyone's efforts as inadequate or not perfect enough.

Let me know if any of the above is unclear.