Who says I hold any knowledge?
Do Sikhs Believe In Angels?
Who says I hold any knowledge?
Stop it!
I am not making fun of Sikhi. Sikhs don't have a monopoly on the term Shabad, and if you cannot take comments in the spirit they were meant, I suggest you do not reply.
Stop it!
I am not making fun of Sikhi. Sikhs don't have a monopoly on the term Shabad, and if you cannot take comments in the spirit they were meant, I suggest you do not reply.
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh..
sorry to say again... I am ready to take anything on me...ready to face anything...whatever you say...you can make fun of me...I will take it lightly... and in a good and positive spirit...But..I can not resist any fun about Guru and Gurbani..I conveyed whatever I felt...I know you have not meant to make fun of Gurbani...but Guru and Gurbani... the two most respectful for me in my life...more than this life of mine given by Guru..more cleary....what people usually say "MORE THAN A GOD"...but Guru is my God..Guru is everything for me..you all sangat is Guru Roop for me...and I respect you all.........
Chardi Kala...
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh..
sorry to say again... I am ready to take anything on me...ready to face anything...whatever you say...you can make fun of me...I will take it lightly... and in a good and positive spirit...But..I can not resist any fun about Guru and Gurbani..I conveyed whatever I felt...I know you have not meant to make fun of Gurbani...but Guru and Gurbani... the two most respectful for me in my life...more than this life of mine given by Guru..more cleary....what people usually say "MORE THAN A GOD"...but Guru is my God..Guru is everything for me..you all sangat is Guru Roop for me...and I respect you all.........
Chardi Kala...
You are making false accusations against. I have not made fun of Sikhi. I'm asking for the last time to stop this.
You are making false accusations against. I have not made fun of Sikhi. I'm asking for the last time to stop this.
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....Randip Singh Ji...
stopped it...
Sarbat da bhala...
Chardi Kala............
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....Randip Singh Ji...
stopped it...
Sarbat da bhala...
Chardi Kala............
Thanks...I was quite hurt by that!
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....Randip Singh Ji..
I am sorry to hurt you....I just humbly want to convey you whatever I felt.....Sorry again...
raab raakha...
Chardi Kala...
Its when we begin to "attach holiness" to OBJECTS..words (Shabad)..Gurdwara....Karrah parshaad..degh..guru ka langgar....chaur shaib..palki shaib..etc etc that we begin on a downward slope....slide !!!
THINGS..OBJECTS..WORDS..per se are NOT HOLY....they cannot be !!!
Take the SGGS..what is HOLY is the DIVINE MESSAGE....i have seen to many completyley DISREGARD the Divine Message..the Rehit...what Gurbani says to DO...BUT they bow and bow lower and lower....in the Gurdwar street..at the gate..at the car park..at the nishan sahib tharra..at each step leading upwards the darbar Sahib...they eat fallen down bits of degh from the floor....BUT....do they raed Gurbani ( NO i dotn knwo Punajbi..no time..am very busy at work...)..do they LISTEN to Gurabni..same reasons...do they understand Gurbani..follow what the Gyani ji explained in the Hukmanma..we are not Gyanis..we dotn know..we are simple sikhs..earn money..do work....all that Gurbani is for the ragis/granthis..bhai ji...why dont you keep kesh..and wear dastaar..why ?? i am a good sikh..inisde..no need to show off outside..!!!...why PICK up fallen degh bits off the floor..DEGH is HOLY...why THROW AWAY YOUR KESH at the barber every day ?? KESH..not holy ?? I already told you..I am Sikh INSIDE...
KESH is not holy..per se..its what they REPRESENT...???? why throw one and keep the other..??? dont know..??? no answers...BECAUSE the DIVINE MESSAGE of SGGS is not FILTERING THROUGH all this "holy smokescreens"....its DHUNDDH...all over aagain..Dense FOG !!! the FOG that Guru nanak ji dissipated in 1469....500 years ago....has RETURNED with a FRENZY and INSIDE GURDWARAS too..
WE Have to;
1. Begin studying GURMUKHI..to be able to READ GURBANI..and TOUCH our SHABAD
2. Begin FOLLOWING what the Shabad Says...and stop empty ritualised bowing only...."fake darshan"
3. IMPLEMENT that TEACHINGS..and change our LIVES..not "IN" one ear.."OUT" the other...
4. That will make us Good Sikhs..Inside and Outside...:ice::ice::ice:
THINGS..OBJECTS..WORDS..per se are NOT HOLY....they cannot be !!!
Take the SGGS..what is HOLY is the DIVINE MESSAGE....i have seen to many completyley DISREGARD the Divine Message..the Rehit...what Gurbani says to DO...BUT they bow and bow lower and lower....in the Gurdwar street..at the gate..at the car park..at the nishan sahib tharra..at each step leading upwards the darbar Sahib...they eat fallen down bits of degh from the floor....BUT....do they raed Gurbani ( NO i dotn knwo Punajbi..no time..am very busy at work...)..do they LISTEN to Gurabni..same reasons...do they understand Gurbani..follow what the Gyani ji explained in the Hukmanma..we are not Gyanis..we dotn know..we are simple sikhs..earn money..do work....all that Gurbani is for the ragis/granthis..bhai ji...why dont you keep kesh..and wear dastaar..why ?? i am a good sikh..inisde..no need to show off outside..!!!...why PICK up fallen degh bits off the floor..DEGH is HOLY...why THROW AWAY YOUR KESH at the barber every day ?? KESH..not holy ?? I already told you..I am Sikh INSIDE...
KESH is not holy..per se..its what they REPRESENT...???? why throw one and keep the other..??? dont know..??? no answers...BECAUSE the DIVINE MESSAGE of SGGS is not FILTERING THROUGH all this "holy smokescreens"....its DHUNDDH...all over aagain..Dense FOG !!! the FOG that Guru nanak ji dissipated in 1469....500 years ago....has RETURNED with a FRENZY and INSIDE GURDWARAS too..
WE Have to;
1. Begin studying GURMUKHI..to be able to READ GURBANI..and TOUCH our SHABAD
2. Begin FOLLOWING what the Shabad Says...and stop empty ritualised bowing only...."fake darshan"
3. IMPLEMENT that TEACHINGS..and change our LIVES..not "IN" one ear.."OUT" the other...
4. That will make us Good Sikhs..Inside and Outside...:ice::ice::ice:
So true. I have noticed people have started circum navigating Sri Harmandir Sahib and also the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji? When did that start?
BhagatSingh
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- Apr 24, 2006
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Here's my shot at explaining the psychology of the people Jarnail Singh ji is speaking of:
"Reading SGGS [for well being - why else would you read it?]" is packaged along with these ideas: eating parshad off the floor and circumnavigating objects and such ["doing these things will also result in your well being"], and one may realize at this point that it is much easier to do the latter. It's much easier to eat parshad off the floor than to read a book (any book).
Due to several variables like time or whatever, one gets more opportunities to perform the latter superstitious behaviour, to eat parshad off the floor, or to do one extra lap around the SGGS. You see the simple actions have more bang for their buck, from their perspective.
I am not saying reading SGGS is superstitious behaviour or that it isn't, I am saying that it is possible to view it as such, and so it gets lumped with everything else.
I hope you are with me so far.
So it seems to me that the solution to the problem does not come by reading SGGS (that would be the first step towards understanding), as SGGS is "for your well being" and so are the other superstitious actions but it's much easier to carry out the other superstistious actions. So the first step never gets taken.
And of course, SGGS doesn't exactly say "Don't eat parshad off the floor." so "why not?".
Let me know what you think Jarnail Singh ji and Randip Singh ji.
There is this idea that is quite common amongst people: superstition - that an action, although unrelated to an event, will cause the event to occur.
"Reading SGGS [for well being - why else would you read it?]" is packaged along with these ideas: eating parshad off the floor and circumnavigating objects and such ["doing these things will also result in your well being"], and one may realize at this point that it is much easier to do the latter. It's much easier to eat parshad off the floor than to read a book (any book).
Due to several variables like time or whatever, one gets more opportunities to perform the latter superstitious behaviour, to eat parshad off the floor, or to do one extra lap around the SGGS. You see the simple actions have more bang for their buck, from their perspective.
I am not saying reading SGGS is superstitious behaviour or that it isn't, I am saying that it is possible to view it as such, and so it gets lumped with everything else.
I hope you are with me so far.
So it seems to me that the solution to the problem does not come by reading SGGS (that would be the first step towards understanding), as SGGS is "for your well being" and so are the other superstitious actions but it's much easier to carry out the other superstistious actions. So the first step never gets taken.
And of course, SGGS doesn't exactly say "Don't eat parshad off the floor." so "why not?".
Let me know what you think Jarnail Singh ji and Randip Singh ji.
I do like what Gurmit Kaur ji said this morning in a different thread. If Sikhism is changing and groups are being formed all the time, then let's start a group that doesn't follow "weird rituals." Which is simple yet profound. That is exactly what Guru Nanak was trying to do -- take the weirdness out of spirituality.:welcome:
BhagatSingh
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- Apr 24, 2006
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Ya but then you just have one more group. It would be better to teach people of those groups. Don't you think?
I think she was facing up to an constant reality. People pick their lanes of traffic, refuse to yield, and cause traffic jams. When that happens it is good to have your own map.
Forget it!
I think she did not expect to be taken "literally."
Forget it!
I think she did not expect to be taken "literally."
BhagatSingh
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- Apr 24, 2006
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ya I figured that.
I bet our education has something to do with it. It doesn't teach you to be skeptic enough... I reckon that's what you need.
I bet our education has something to do with it. It doesn't teach you to be skeptic enough... I reckon that's what you need.
harcharanjitsinghdhillon
SPNer
- Oct 18, 2012
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Thanks for the compliments Vijaydeep ..
and more thanks still for a very nice and logically flowing post
Sher Singh Ji:
I would request you to ask your father for exact quotes as it would help the cause.
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I could find the following references to Angels and Demons in Guru Granth Sahib JI
#1. References to Azraaeel - The Angel of Death
Page 315, Line 4 -- Guru Arjan Dev
Azraa-eel, the Angel of Death, shall crush them like sesame seeds in the oil-press. ||27||
ajraa-eel faraystaa til peerhay ghaanee. ||27||
Page 953, Line 14 -- Guru Nanak Dev
Azraa-eel, the Angel of Death, shall be appointed to punish them.
ajraa-eel faraystaa hosee aa-ay ta-ee.
Page 1019, Line 19 -- Guru Arjan Dev
Azraa-eel, the Angel of Death, seizes and tortures them.
ajraa-eel farhay farh kuthay.
Do the above references then mean that there does exist and actual angel Azraaeel and sikhs belive in that.
I think to understand this we need to recognise:
The message of Guru Maharaj was not limited to a particular section of the society. It was a Universal Message for all. To get his point across Guru Maharaj used refernces to the popular current mythologies without ever compromising his message.
If on the one hand he uses the word Azraaeel for people who were familiar with semitic beliefs and myths, he also used words like Kaal, Jamdoot and Dharamrai which could be easily interpreted by people believing in Hindu beliefs.
Hence the world Azraael just presses home the point of death. The simple use of the word conveys a powerful message to people of semitic belifes and they are easily able to relate to the truth.
Also if Guru Maharj belived in mythological beings such as Devs, he would recognise that they have partaken the mythological Amrit and now cannot die. However the references we find from Guru Granth Sahib paint aa different picture and suggest that Guru Maharaj never subscribed to such myths:
Page 1267, Line 7 -- Guru Arjan Dev
Shiva, Brahma, angels and demons, all burn in the fire of death.
siv biranch asur sur jaytay kaal agan meh jartay.
Bhagat Naam Dev Ji also says:
Page 873, Line 17 -- Saint Nam Dev
I have been transformed from a mortal being into an angel, in an instant; the True Guru has taught me this.
nar tay sur ho-ay jaat nimakh mai satgur buDh sikhlaa-ee.
Now is it that Bahagt Jee got transformed into an angel or Deevta as per popular mythology or is he talking about qualities that came to rest in him because of satguru's blessings. Think..
Please also search for the word angels at www.srigranth.org and you will get a lot of links.
sat sri akal thanks for the link very helpfull it was..
harcharanjitsinghdhillon
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- Oct 18, 2012
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yes there are angels, but in sikhism we does not pray to them or ask help from them because they cannot give us Naam.. Further more revelations in sikhism is coming directly from the one god,, without the help of anything inbetween.. this is my oppinion. thanks
Nothing wrong with angels.- I believe !!
Nice things to talk about and think of but it's not about sikhism.
In the same way I believe in Rocky Balboa and Rambo, but I don't believe in the tooth fairy.
Nice things to talk about and think of but it's not about sikhism.
In the same way I believe in Rocky Balboa and Rambo, but I don't believe in the tooth fairy.
harcharanjitsinghdhillon
SPNer
- Oct 18, 2012
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sat sri akal to everyone. to my oppinion yes sikhism do believe in existance in angels.. but to worship and ask help from angels it is a no in sikhism.. sikhism worship the only one, the eternal one. only eternal one can show us the path to mukti.. angels cannot show us the path to mukti because they themself are crying day and nites for the lord s grace but they are not getting it.. angels are just following the command of the lord and singing his praises day and nite.. this is my oppinion thanks and sat sri akal
The beginnings of the concept of "angels" is 1000 years older than Islam. Angels come into many different religions of the middle east and Asia Minor, including Judaism, at about 600 BCE. So it should not surprise if the subcontinent of India would have contact with the idea of angels, and introduce the idea into all of its many religions, following Persian conquest of the Punjab. Much later Christianity adopts the idea of angels, from Jewish and Persian influences. About 1000 years after the birth of Islam, and 2000 years of Persian influence, Guruji is written and we read of angels in a few places. I am not convinced that the Gurus were including angels as part of Sikhi, but were using images that were familiar to common folk. These angels by now are part of a tradition that is thousands of years old.
My reasoning: Angels would be part of the spirit world...if you believe in the spirit world. If one believes seriously in them then one has to also accept that there is a spirit world inhabited by spirits, and that these "spirits" wander through more than one level or plane of reality doing the work of 2 executive officers of the supernatural. These CEO's would be either a good God or an evil demon (depending on religion the demon has a different name, e.g., Lucifer), or both at the same time. Do we see anywhere in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji examples of agents of the divine carrying out orders in the khands or other planes of existence or reality, on behalf of good and evil lordships of creation. That is why the idea of angels in Sikhi is very strange, and I think they are used as metaphors and nothing more in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
My reasoning: Angels would be part of the spirit world...if you believe in the spirit world. If one believes seriously in them then one has to also accept that there is a spirit world inhabited by spirits, and that these "spirits" wander through more than one level or plane of reality doing the work of 2 executive officers of the supernatural. These CEO's would be either a good God or an evil demon (depending on religion the demon has a different name, e.g., Lucifer), or both at the same time. Do we see anywhere in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji examples of agents of the divine carrying out orders in the khands or other planes of existence or reality, on behalf of good and evil lordships of creation. That is why the idea of angels in Sikhi is very strange, and I think they are used as metaphors and nothing more in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
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aristotle
SPNer
With all respect, when am I actually going to find out if Sikhs believe God can take form or not? Some say he can, some day he doesn't.
That depends on how you define God's taking 'form'...
* God already exists and permeates whole of the creation. The Abrahamic concept of God is as the ruler of the heavens and nether worlds. The Eastern concept of God is as the 'Atmaa'(enlightened spirit). Sikhism, in its essence, breaks free from these definitions and limitations and proposes a limitless God. Even while believing that God cannot be 'fully' described, we believe that God permeates the whole Universe. In simpler terms, God is there in anything and everything. The Universe (or Universes) are themselves the 'form' of God (You would appreciate how this concept is somewhat different from Pantheism)
ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ (Guru Granth Sahib, Pg 1350)
"The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||"
* At other places, Gurus are termed as 'manifestations' of God. In other words, even when the Gurus didn't claim themselves to be 'God', they were the 'embodiment' of every virtuous attribute that can be ascribed to God. Hence, they were the bearers of 'perfect godliness'.
ਭਨਿ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਕਛੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨਹੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਪਰਤਖ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਹਰਿ ॥੭॥੧੯॥ (Guru Granth Sahib, Pg 1409)
"So speaks Mat'huraa: there is no difference between God and Guru; Guru Arjun is the Personification of the Lord Himself. ||7||19||"
Also consider
ਹਰਿ ਜਨੁ ਐਸਾ ਚਾਹੀਐ ਜੈਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਹੀ ਹੋਇ ॥੧੪੯॥ (Guru Granth Sahib, Pg 1372)
"The humble servant of the Lord should be just like the Lord. ||149||"
CONCLUSION: Universe is the 'form' of God, God exists in everything the Universe holds. Needless to say, God does not 'need' human form. God is in everything we can perceive, everything we can experience, everything we can ever know. If you are waiting for the God to take form, your wait has already been answered, God already is in 'form'....
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