Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[Brother Onam]

Paji,
When the mighty chief Sitting Bull was brought from his country to Washington to meet the president and be shown all the fineries of western 'civilization' (Maybe time for another Gandhi quote: When asked by a British reporter what he thought of English civilization, he said "I think it would be a good idea."), Sitting Bull was struck by all the beggars, wondering how such an 'advanced' people could care so little for its poor.
Gandhiji was a flawed man, but I think still one of the most admirable in modern history. Even with his inconsistencies, he still exhibited more courage and principle than most of us could aspire to. But this is not a defense of Gandhi but rather just a look at the point he was making:
Crass and low people may trumpet their advancement and 'exceptionalism', but if they treat the poor and the helpless with indifference or brutality, all their perceived virtue is just illusion.
I think it's true that the Guru has little to say about meat-eating, but at such times it requires saintly people to draw on our native spiritual sense to exhibit Godly conduct. For saintly people, we ought to want to engage in mercy, light, peace and healing, not partake of the mean and bloody deeds of beasts. A lion has no choice but to nourish itself through bloodshed; for a man, we can choose a brutal low diet, or a pure and living diet. it's up to us which path we trod in this lifetime.

 

[Randip Singh]

Har Har Har be praised

I'm sorry I'm coming rather late to this discussion. In His/Her mercy, Har has allowed humans the constitution which may, in times of need, extract nutrients from a broad range of sources, rather like a goat. But it should be clear that, at least for spiritual people, our natural diet is a vegetarian one. Others have broken down the anatomical details that identify the human body as corresponding to the anatomies of other vegetarian animals, which is hard to dispute. But let us also use our sense:
Observe a predator animal when it sees movement. Most of us will have seen a cat stalking a bird in the grass, or else seen nature programs showing a lion pursuing its prey in the savannahs. When a predator detects the movement of an animal it regards as food, it becomes very tense, nervous, begins twitching and salivating, and makes ready to pounce and kill. This is the way of low predator beasts.
I have not yet seen a man or woman who, upon encountering a cow or chicken, becomes highly agitated and begin to salivate. Of course not, because this is not really food for us. Our food is a ripe mango, a watermelon, these will make us salivate, if we are genuinely hungry. Because these are food for us. A tiger will have no use for these.
It is really a testimony to our waywardness as a species that so much of what we see in the marketplace (especially Chinese or African markets!), is things that ran, creeped, swam or jumped; specifically the things humans ought have no business eating. These are foods to low beasts; our foods hang from trees and vines. But we are a lawless and ungovernable race, given over to low impulses too often, as the state of our world will readily testify.
So, as creatures of free will, yes we are at liberty to eat either high foods of spiritual, peace-loving souls, or else low foods, which perpetuate suffering and disease. But as a holy people, let us choose the high way.
May the Naam of Waheguru continue to be praised.

Brother do you study bioligy?

If you do then you know that an egg is a waste product incapable of producing life. If you scroll up the discussion we talked about the egg having less than a destructive quality to life in general than milk.

This is where the enture argument about promoting one diet over another in terms of spirituality fails. This is Nanaks point as well.

I don't and neither did Nanak buy into the philsophy that one diet which promotes a so called "high way". If we choose to do that, lets shave our heads and beards and become Brahmins!!
When we say "high way" we are saying "my way" , not the Guru's way. This is the way of "Hankaar", and "Egotism"!!

 

[Randip Singh]

Could we have a quote from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji please that supports GANDHI on Animals ?? Or we do beleive that the GURUS didnt give two hoots to the way animals were treated ??? Enough MERCY is demonstrated by the Love of Horses ....and eagles (hunters)..Gurus hunting LIONS ....and BHAI GHANIYAH Jis actions in battle. Did Gandhi ever keep an eagle..Did he ever kill a Lion that was terrorizing the villagers...did Gandhi ever have a Horse to ride ?? He ONLY ahd a BAKREE whcih he kept MILKING day and night..and his followers MILK INDIA day and night ever since.:grinningsingh::grinningsingh:
Most of this is tongue in cheek..no apologies..no offense..no replies required....

Gyani ji let not forget the so called Mahatma who was racist against blacks and had countless affairs, called Guru Gobind Singh a "misguided patriot" . Vaishnavism and Sikhism are miles apart:

http://sikhinstitute.org/oct_2011/12-harbans.html

 

[Randip Singh]

Gyani ji talked about pleasures in this thread relating to food items and i think he has a valid point regarding this.Addiction to pleasures including food items be it vegetarian or non vegetarian has always been our downfall.

Brilliant perception!!

Our very own Gynai ji points this out all the time....yet people seem not to listen him. Why? because they love their butter and halwaa too much. Nursing thier big "gogars" while reading Gyani ji's message that addiction to pleasures is far worse makes them feel at unease. It forces tham to look at themselves rather than point the finger.

They think "well we are better than you because we don't eat meat" -

Gyani ji points out "No you are are wrong...you are no better because you have worse addictions!!" :winkingmunda: At this point they get angry and hurle abuse!! Patit, blah blah and worse!!

 

[Brother Onam]

Honourable Randip ji,
When I say high or low diets, I am really just picturing how it looks that we, children of Dayal, Lord of Mercy, are elbowing aside wolves and jackals, trying to get a go at the bloody carcass of a dead beast, while the vibrant, life-giving fruits are hanging untouched overhead, waiting to be consumed.
Any animal, even a fish, will flee in fear if we grasp it with knife in hand. A fruit, though, desires to be eaten, looking and smelling delightful, to impart its life-energy and scatter its seed.
Let's leave the predators their bloody feasts, rather than emerging from the frenzy with face smudged with animal blood and gristle.
As we agreed, the Guru expresses little opinion about diet, so let us be guided instead by Har-given sense and compassion.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

:icecreamkaur:my "better half".... would kill for an ice cream..is that "Highway" or Herway ?? No one can stop her..not the hanging gogarr..not the doc..not us the family..not her screaming knees..ice cream or I SCREAM. After that she absolutely must have Wild Boar roast.1 KG ..butter chicken. 2kg....and large orange juice - stirred and not shaken..Bond style.. already diabetic, BP in the 180's, weight at 200kg..can hardly breathe after 2 steps up a bus..and she says..I am NOT "addicted"..arent you also mad about the Mahaan dee daal called Makhni daal ?? THAT shuts me up. Good. SO its all Her-way, Highway, MYway...BUT certainly NOT GURUS WAY.

 

[Randip Singh]

Honourable Randip ji,
When I say high or low diets, I am really just picturing how it looks that we, children of Dayal, Lord of Mercy, are elbowing aside wolves and jackals, trying to get a go at the bloody carcass of a dead beast, while the vibrant, life-giving fruits are hanging untouched overhead, waiting to be consumed.
Any animal, even a fish, will flee in fear if we grasp it with knife in hand. A fruit, though, desires to be eaten, looking and smelling delightful, to impart its life-energy and scatter its seed.
Let's leave the predators their bloody feasts, rather than emerging from the frenzy with face smudged with animal blood and gristle.
As we agreed, the Guru expresses little opinion about diet, so let us be guided instead by Har-given sense and compassion.

I'm sure a plant would run if it had legs !!!:kaurkhalsaflagblue:

In anycase where does flesh end and begin. An egg you would agree is a waste product and doeos no harm to any animal yet die hard vegetarians will not eat an egg, but they will consume milk, which is biologically cows blood in effect.

With regards to blood and flesh, we are born of flesh and blood, we are covered in flesh and blood when born, to associate blood and flesh with all that is bad is wrong I think!!
Pahilan masuhn nimmiya masai andari vasu (Guru Nanak, Pg1289-1290 Guru Granth Sahib, Raga Malar)
Born out of flesh, in flesh does man live.
With life comes love of flesh, bones, skin, limbs
All are flesh.
As from flesh the living body issues, the breast that is flesh,
It grasps in mouth.
Of flesh is the mouth, of flesh the tongue,
Through flesh is breath drawn.
As is man grown up, matrimony he enters,
And brings home flesh.
Of flesh is born flesh,
With flesh are all relationships established.
By the touch of the holy Perceptor is the Divine Ordinance realized,
Whereby comes fulfilment.
Not by man's own effort comes liberation:
Saith Nanak: Such talk only to perdition leads. (1)


Also with regard to predators, we are saints we are soldiers. We are farmers/artisans and hunters. The Guru's hunted. My ancestors hunted. There is nothing wrong with being a predator!! It's the Sikh way!!

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

GURU NANAK JI SETTLED that good and proper...early ON..in Asa dee vaar..
FIRST REMOVE that piece of FLESH inside the MOUTH (Tongue)....the ROOT of ALL TASTES and ADDICTIONS...pleasures and what not..then TALK about "meat eating".....

WE are MADE OF FLESH, WE ARE BORN IN FLESH..WE SUCK FLESH FOR LIFE..WE GROW UP IN FLESH..WE MARRY FLESH..WE SUCK FLESH TO PROCREATE..WE MANUFACTURE FLESH...WE HAVE FLESH 24/7 INSIDE OF OUR MOUTHS AND STOMACHS..DID GURU NANAK JI WRITE THIS...ALL LENGTHY SHABAD JUST FOR FUN ???? WAS GURU JI STUCK UP ON FLESH THAT MUCH ???
NO WAY..HE HAD TO LABOUR HARD TO GET US OUT OF THE GUTTER OF AHIMSA..VEGE-GRASS EATING COMPULSIONS..ETC WHICH FALSELY PROMOTED SUCH GRASS EATERS AS MORE HOLY AND MORE SPIRITUAL ETC...BUT WE IN OUR OWN WISDOM..FELL BACKWARDS INTO THAT SAME gutter SO FAST..WE DONT EVEN REALISE IT...AND FEEL SO SPIRITUAL..SO HOLY...as COWS must feel !!!

 

[Randip Singh]

GURU NANAK JI SETTLED that good and proper...early ON..in Asa dee vaar..
FIRST REMOVE that piece of FLESH inside the MOUTH (Tongue)....the ROOT of ALL TASTES and ADDICTIONS...pleasures and what not..then TALK about "meat eating".....

WE are MADE OF FLESH, WE ARE BORN IN FLESH..WE SUCK FLESH FOR LIFE..WE GROW UP IN FLESH..WE MARRY FLESH..WE SUCK FLESH TO PROCREATE..WE MANUFACTURE FLESH...WE HAVE FLESH 24/7 INSIDE OF OUR MOUTHS AND STOMACHS..DID GURU NANAK JI WRITE THIS...ALL LENGTHY SHABAD JUST FOR FUN ???? WAS GURU JI STUCK UP ON FLESH THAT MUCH ???
NO WAY..HE HAD TO LABOUR HARD TO GET US OUT OF THE GUTTER OF AHIMSA..VEGE-GRASS EATING COMPULSIONS..ETC WHICH FALSELY PROMOTED SUCH GRASS EATERS AS MORE HOLY AND MORE SPIRITUAL ETC...BUT WE IN OUR OWN WISDOM..FELL BACKWARDS INTO THAT SAME gutter SO FAST..WE DONT EVEN REALISE IT...AND FEEL SO SPIRITUAL..SO HOLY...as COWS must feel !!!

Gyani ji, my friend jokingly refers to such misfortunates as the "Aloo Gobi Brigade!!".

He says to me, he went to Punajb and he sat with people who stuck up their noses to flesh, yet he knew that these same people had got their wives to abort female foetuses!!! They kill their own flesh. These "Aloo Gobi Brigade" ought to be :realangrymunda:

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Definitely Ji..the PUNJAB has the most Aaloo-gobi brigade..and also the HIGHEST Female foeticide/Bride burnings/women beaters (police included) in the world...WHAT GIVES ?? Holy cow. Proof that all this Sham hypocracy spiritualism from eating grass is just Holy cow bovine expulsion.
And oh oh..try "talking" after the tongue has been removed..for more spirituality and inner peace...sheer hypocracy exposed wide open by SGGS.

 

[esieffe]

Sat Shri Akal!

Randip Singh Ji,
Thank you for the very valuable discussion and the work involved in presenting it. It is comforting to know that eating a casserole that might have been cooked with meat broth at a friend's house won't land me in some karmic hell, especially while there are often one or two of the five thieves howling outside my door that I have to contend with! One less thing to worry about!
:icecreammunda:

 

[Babandeep Singh]

VJJK VJKF!!!

Well I must say I don't give much importance to veg. vs non-veg. issue but I read certain comments in this thread regarding how to be vegetarian is to be merciful... :interestedkudi:

Following articles and studies clearly show that plants do "feel" though in their own, often imperceptible, way...The thorns and poisonous saps clearly demonstrate how they too yearn for survival and self-defence!!! Ever touched a "Touch-me-not"???

1. Amazing Plants - Do Plants Respond to Pain? - YouTube
2. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/science/15food.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
3. http://www.viewzone.com/plants.html

And how much more movement do we need to show that they too have basic instincts shared by other life-forms!! Just because they don't scream doesn't imply they don't have an urge to live on!!! Take a look at this...

BBC Life 2009 - Plants HD - YouTube

And what about this (non-veg.) plant...
Life - Venus Flytraps: Jaws of Death - BBC One - YouTube (whoopsies it's quite hungry...lol)
Such hunger...such a carnivorous instinct...
Now if I want to eat this plant (say hypothetically :icecreamkudi: ), can I be a vegetarian (and merciful at the same time)?? It is a plant after all...or is it? :winkingmunda:

What about parasitic plants like Dodder plant (amarbel)?? The plants themselves don't seem to be much concerned with "mercy"...

And what about fungi like mushroom?? Does eating them amount to vegetarianism or not?? and so on...

Now I can see why Gurus said that how delving on such topics is fruitless and a fool's game :grinningsingh:

And now on evolutionary terms how humans have been through natural selection deemed as omnivores...
http://www.superteacherworksheets.com/reading-comp/4th-carnivores-herbivores.pdf

The incisors, the eyes in the front and not on the sides clearly point out the nature's design (Creator's design imho) as far as humans are concerned...

If some one is a vegetarian and is happy, nothing better than that But to say that those who are meat eaters are somewhat lesser mortals is in my opinion quite judgemental and against the principles of Sikhi...

Anyways, no intention to offend anybody... One Love

 

[Randip Singh]

I've come to the conclusion all this non-vege and vege is designed to distract us.

I was having a discussion with a historian who tells me that Khandhe dha Pahul was taken 200 years ago to free them.

In other words your average Hindu was restrricted by many practices, shave your head, eat certain things, know your place according to how pure you are etc. Once a Hindu took Amrit he was free. He could break all these Hindu taboo's.

Today however, Khandhe dha Pahul is being used to restrict again....:noticekudi:

 

[Seeker2013]

Is Eating Meat Associated with Masculinity and Power?

I am 23 yr old male . Growing up , I ate almost an exclusively lacto-vegetarian diet , not even eggs . I somewhat regret it today because being a vegetarian could put you at risk of certain deficiencies . For instance , vitamin D and vitamin B12 is found almost exclusively in non veg sources ! also omega 3 too is found more abundantly in fish than anything else .

But TBH while I do eat meat infrequently (chicken , goat etc ) , I never seem to enjoy the experience . I am not a fan of the taste either . More like 'eat this coz its got some good iron and minerals' . This is in contrast to me enjoying veggies , even eggs or crunchy fish !
I am also just 5'5" and generally weaker . Perhaps this too due to my bad eating habits and vegetarianism .

What i do not understand is why meat eating is associated with masculinity / virility ?
Is it BECAUSE meat is already considered nasty by all people and thus eating this is a sign of 'yes I can eat this even if its so unpalatable' and thats why its associated with power ?

I never really seem to get it ! I am tired of few people trolling me all the time and embarassing me on social functions as to why I don't take meat from the buffet ! Its obvious they see vegetarians as weak !

Also , (not surprisingly ) people tend to use 'gay' word for men whenever they do something people don't want them to do ! like 'why are you vegetarian ? is it because you're gay?'
Like srsly , this is so annoying . This is compounded by the fact that people think if a guy doesn't like to consume things which are not 'sweet' , he's gay ! (gay word is thrown around as synonym for 'despicable' , 'stupid' etc and I find it annoying as I am a gay person myself
Like when I told my friend the other way I don't drink alcohol coz its bitter , he was like 'so u only like sweet things? you're gay !'
And trust me a lot of people think like that !

But , really whats so masculine about chewing into steak ?
what do u guys think

Admin note: Given the turn this thread has taken, it is important to point out that views expressed are the opinions of posters, unless specifically cited by the Sikh Rehat Maryada or SGGS. SPN cannot vouch for the accuracy of what posters say.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Is Eating Meat Associated with Masculinity and Power?

Seeker2013 ji

Half-way between being 'moderator/admin' and being just plain old me with a burning desire for life in a rational world, i bring you these assertions:

1. The original thread title was changed because of punctuation TOS violations and bad grammar. This was the original - "Why Meat eating is associated with masculinity and power ? Is it necessary"

2. The first part of the title "Why Meat eating is associated with masculinity and power" is a statement not a question in spite of the misplaced question mark. You begin the thread therefore with the assumption that the statement is true.

3.The second part of the title "Is it necessary" requires a question mark, with none to be found. But the graver violation of ordinary logic is that, the question "Is it necessary" follows from your personal suspicions, and is dependent on them. We don't know if meat eating is associated with masculinity and power. All we know is that you believe it is.

So basically you are generalizing a wider truth from your own individual experience, or rather your emotional interpretation of your experience. Now which is worse? Bad grammar or absence of reason? They actually walk hand in hand. An unreasonable thought in this case comes to us in an ungrammatical sentence or two. I am not being a prig about this either. Why on earth do you think that, because you 'suspect' you are being made to feel uncomfortable, the entire remainder of humanity shares your suspicions? Once again you are hijacking our forum with personal melodrama. Who but a handful of 'possibly gay guys' who are embarrassed at social functions when they refuse to eat meat is going to be able to identify with this?

My observation may even be a partial answer to a personal concern you raised on another thread. Remember we all have experiences and we all have emotional reactions to our experiences and suspicions. You are not alone.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Is Eating Meat Associated with Masculinity and Power?

I know! This was the part where I had more to say.

So basically you are generalizing a wider truth from your own individual experience, or rather your emotional interpretation of your experience. ..... Why on earth do you think that, because you 'suspect' you are being made to feel uncomfortable, the entire remainder of humanity shares your suspicions? Once again you are hijacking our forum with personal melodrama. Who but a handful of 'possibly gay guys' who are embarrassed at social functions when they refuse to eat meat is going to be able to identify with this?

It could even be the case that "a handful of 'possibly gay guys' are not really gay but only 'think' they are gay and 'suspect' that others are 'thinking' 'negative' 'thoughts.' Frankly we need a Buddhist to see us through these convolutions of personal reality.

Because someone refused to eat meat (period '.' and question mark '?'

 

[Seeker2013]

Re: Is Eating Meat Associated with Masculinity and Power?

You are the one being melodramatic here and not only are you being melodramatic , you are also bordering on unnecessarily acrimonious remarks.

You may not be the best judge of how acrimonious I either am or am required to be. I am sure that opinions are all over the map on spnadmin. lol

The subject is simple . I have experienced it first hand . So I will speak with my experience .

Be honest then and make it clear that it is your experience, and that your experience is not the blueprint for a greater truth.
And I think it does hold quite a bit . Hunting for eating is more of a masculine habit . How many female hunters do you hear of ?
I don't know how many female hunters there are for a fact. Do you? Both you and I can only guess. What we "have heard of" is only what we have heard of. And by no means a basis for generalizing about why we eat meat.

Some species are extinct now because men have hunted them so much for food

What does this have to do with anything?

You need to stop attacking me and answer if you wish or look the other way

I am unlikely to look the other way anytime in the near future.

Seeker2013 ji

Grow up!

spnadmin note: This comment is added later after forum member ishna ji suggested that it was unclear I was making inline responses to Seeker2013 ji. It would have been clear to her if I had indicated that somewhere on the comment. Actually we are supposed to include our id's when we react in-line. Therefore, anything in red font was an in-line moderation remark. Thank you ishna ji

 

[aristotle]

Re: Is Eating Meat Associated with Masculinity and Power?

I've never personally seen any vegetarian(and in India, they aren't a minority) be dubbed gay, even in slang, but that may be because I'm a small town guy. Anyways, veganism is the new in-thing nowadays. Masculinity and meat is a connection that is difficult to visualise, and what abot the ladies out there who savour KFC chicken snackers? Are they turning masculine then?

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Is Eating Meat Associated with Masculinity and Power?

I've never personally seen any vegetarian(and in India, they aren't a minority) be dubbed gay, even in slang, but that may be because I'm a small town guy. Anyways, veganism is the new in-thing nowadays. Masculinity and meat is a connection that is difficult to visualise, and what abot the ladies out there who savour KFC chicken snackers? Are they turning masculine then?

lol Yes. We are trying to grow hair on our chests so we can be ready for anything.

 

[Luckysingh]

Re: Is Eating Meat Associated with Masculinity and Power?

Yes, with certain meats there is definitely the masculine power thing attached.
For example, if you were a waitress or worked in a diner/restaurant, and lets say a couple came in (man and woman) and their order was 120z steak, fries and salad PLUS chicken alfredo pasta with salad......... then although BOTH dishes are meat, most of us will quickly deduce that the steak is for him and the alfredo chicken is for her !

Therefore, meats like steak or chicken legs on the bone are much more likely to be ordered by a masculine man.- No doubt !

It is also not surprising that if you go into a classic diner on some major highway, you may across some ODD combinations like fried egg on steak which is most likely going to be ordered by well built and muscled Truckers or Hells angels. You wouldn't be surprised to see them order this for breakfast either !

I would say any meat that involves vigorous cutting or some skillful, heavy biting is always going to have a masculine adherent to it.
Whereas feminine will still order meats, but only one's that are well prepared/cut/de-boned or quite simply one's that can be eaten with just a fork without any heavy knife cutting.