Hinduism Gayatri Mantra

[sanj007]

Aristotle, again will repeat about Shambuka epsidoe, we have clear relationship between the less wealthy people ie Shabri discribed before this false shambuka episode came about:

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion...vedas-hindu-scriptures-prohibit-casteism.html

Lord Rama visited Shabri, called her a mother (mata); ate food from her hands and washed feet of Nisadraj. Lord Rama lived for years among vanvasi (tribals). So the second lesson of Ramayana is that a true Rambhakta should never discriminate against SC/ST/Dalit Hindus, should never hesitate to visit and dine with them. Mahatma Gandhi always followed both these two lessons of Ramayana.

very clear and in line primal messages of God residing in all and end game of hindu faith : MOKSHA, reconciliation complete.
With Shambuka-no reconciliation and basic questioning would reveal this to be so, hence following comments, will start with my question to agniveer about this:

Whole of the Uttar Kanda is later day addition to Original Ramayan, all the scholars agree with this. So this Uttar Kanda has nothing to do with original life of Shri Ram and thus cant be used to evaluate him

There you have it, end of the day it is up to you to question and discover truth, those without prejudice when presented with basic points and question discover truth, as only by questioning and reconciling back can we achieve truth.

Lord Krishna:

In The Bhagawad Gita, sloka 20, Chapter 10, Lord Krishna says,
"I am the Self seated in the heart of all creatures. I am the beginning, the middle and the very end of all beings". All beings have, therefore to be treated alike.​

simple enough

 

[sanj007]

Dogra Ji..
It should be clear by now that the "hindus" DONT FOLLOW what their religious texts say..neither do Muslims...and simialrly SIKHS also DONT FOLLOW what the Guru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says..and so we get Non-hindus telling Hindus non-Sikhs telling Sikhs and non-Muslims telling Mulsims how to muslim...BUT Guru Sahibs told the HINDU..to be a GOOD HINDU..the Muslim to be a GOOD MUSLIM..and the SIKH to be a TRUE GYANI.....no attempts whatsoever to criticise the Hindus/mulsims in order to convert them to Sikhism...Mussalmman MOM DIL HOVEH..DYA..is commendable in any human hwether Hindu muslim or sikh..DYA is the First Pyara and its not just be coincidence...Now a days too many armchair holies who cant see the Elephants in front of their noses but pretend to be able to see tiny bacterial hundred miles away via a sort of Hubbles telescope they wear on their eyes !!. WE all have to Look under our collars and see what we really are deep inside...are we real Hindus, real Muslims or real Sikhs ?..or just superficial surface types fit only to look at others so called faults...:swordfight-kudiyan:

Guru Sahibs did indeed say that, and what wonderful advice for humanity, come without any attachement in terms of wanting something in return, totally selfless advice and hence great regard and respect to Guru Sahibs.

Also am talking about individuals when faced with clear scriptural facts still insist on beleiveing their 'own'; truth.
Sanatan Dharma basic primal messages are clear, Sri Vivekenand also said:
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0804/6.html

Vivekananda's message was not just of renunciation but selfless service as well. Addressing Girish Ghosh, a renowned writer and theatre director, the fiery Swami said, "Do you know Girish babu, it occurs to me that even if a thousand births have to be taken in order to relieve the sorrows of the world, surely I will take them." Vivekananda was against all superstitions such as untouchability. "We refuse entirely to identify ourselves with 'Don't touchism'. That is not Hinduism... it is an unorthodox superstition which has interfered with national efficiency all along the line."

 

[Harry Haller]

It is refreshing to read a post that cherishes our similarities rather than our differences, it is double refreshing to read a post in which certain practices are distanced from the mother religion, as Sikhs we know all about cultural practices that have been accepted as religious, despite there being no foundation for such

 

[aristotle]

"There are four castes—Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras.
Among these, each preceding (caste) is superior by birth to the one following.http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/38B1. Who were the Shudras PART I.htm#_msocom_3For all these excepting Shudras and those who have committed bad actions are ordained (1) the initiation (Upanayan or the wearing of the sacred thread), (2) the study of the Veda and (3) the kindling of the sacred fire (i.e., the right to perform sacrifice"
(RIG VEDA, "Apstambha Dharma Sutra")


If still someone claims that the Vedas don't recognize the caste system (by birth), I can only laugh.

 

[sanj007]

oh dear, let me show the clear verses and link, so u can have a good laugh, as the truth is very clear:
http://agniveer.com/888/caste-system/

The actual word used for Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra is ‘Varna’ and not Jaati.
The word ‘Varna’ is used not only for these four, but also for Dasyu and Arya.
‘Varna’ means one that is adopted by choice

simple enough, now for verses:
http://agniveer.com/821/vedas-and-shudra/

Yajurved 26.2:
The way I gave this knowledge of Vedas for benefit of all humans, similarly you all also propagate the same for benefit of Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Shudras, Vaishyas, Women and even most downtrodden. The scholars and the wealthy people should ensure that they not deviate from this message of mine.
Atharvaved 19.32.8:
O Lord! May I be loved by everyone – Brahmin, Kshatriya, Shudra or Vaishya. May I be admired by everyone.

These are sufficient evidence to conclude that Shudra, as per Vedas, imply something quite different from a caste or community that has to be discriminated against

Every society has basic functions in order to operate, and there is dignity of labour for all functions:

Rigveda 1.117.21
The King and minister should sow seeds and do farming from time to time to set right examples for Arya. This makes them deserving of praise.
Rigveda 8.22.6 echoes the same sentiment.
Rigveda 4.57.4 states that the king should hold the plough and start the farming during beginning of season. He should also ensure healthy cows for milk.
Accordingly, we also find in Ramayan the reference of King Janak ploughing when he found Sita (Ramayan 1.66.14)

quite clear that these reconcile back to primal messages of God residing in hearts oif all beings and endgame for Hindu faith: MOKSHA, which can only be achieved if one leads a noble life
Sanatan Dharma(hinduism) teaches to practice humanity and thats a fact!

cmon Aristotle show your link

 

[sanj007]

some more:
(intEresting how oxford uni for hindu studies said no untouchability, so did Sri Vivekenanda, but a number of non hindu faith individuals think they know more than scriptures themselves, now thats funny
http://agniveer.com/5276/vedas-caste-discrimination/

In summary, we see that the Vedic society considers all humans to be one single Jaati or race, upholds the dignity of labor and provides equal opportunity for all humans to adopt the Varna of their choice.
There is no element of birth-based discrimination of any manner in the Vedas.
May we all unite together as one integrated family, reject the last element of birth-based discrimination of any manner and embrace each other as brothers and sisters.

and thats a FACT!!

 

[aristotle]

@Dogra Ji,
* That means casteism in Hinduism is by choice and not by birth. That means anyone can adopt any caste by choice. Can a person 'born' into a Shudra family take the caste of 'Sharma'(=A Brahmin caste) and become a Brahmin?
Can you demonstrate any Shudra who has become a Brahmin?
If this is not possible, isn't debating over Hindu Scriptures in this regard a vain exercise.
In reality, if this were true, Shudras would not have been terrorised and tortured for centuries.

* I posted a quote from the Apstambha Dharma Sutra from Rig Veda, about which you haven't been able to answer. There is no fun in throwing quotes and links in counter-answers. First answer about that quote from Apstambha Dharma Sutra and then talk about other quotes...

 

[sanj007]

Aristotle have provided you with verses which reconcile to basis points, which you have not replied to, and also i asked for the link so that if i need to ask questions to more learned people can do so.
Basic facts that you has to reconcile to is God resides in hearts of all people and Moksha but now again back to changes of professions as already provided in previous post:

http://agniveer.com/888/caste-system/

Many examples exist of change of Varnas in Vedic history.
a. Aitareya Rishi was son of a Daasa or criminal but became a Brahmin of highest order and wrote Aitareya Brahman and Aitareyopanishad. Aitareya Brahman is considered critical to understand Rigveda.
b. Ailush Rishi was son of a Daasi, gambler and of low character. However he researched on Rigveda and made several discoveries. Not only was he invited by Rishis but also made an Acharya. (Aitareya Brahman 2.19)
c. Satyakaam Jaabaal was son of a prostitute but became a Brahmin.
d. Prishadh was son of King Daksha but became a Shudra. Further he did Tapasya to achieve salvation after repenting.
(Vishnu Puran 4.1.14)
Had Tapasya been banned for Shudra as per the fake story from Uttar Ramayan, how could Prishadh do so?
e. Nabhag, soon of King Nedishtha became Vaishya. Many of his sons again became Kshatriya. (Vishnu Puran 4.1.13)
f. Dhrist was son of Nabhag (Vaishya) but became Brahmin and his son became Kshatriya (VP 4.2.2)
g. Further in his generation, some became Brahmin again (VP 9.2.23)
h. As per Bhagvat, Agniveshya became Brahmin though born to a king.
i. Rathotar born in Kshatriya family became a Brahmin as per Vishnu Puran and Bhagvat.
j. Haarit became Brahmin though born to Kshatriya (VP 4.3.5)
k. Shaunak became Brahmin though born in Kshatriya family. (VP 4.8.1). In fact, as per Vayu Puran, Vishnu Puran and Harivansh Puran, sons of Shaunak Rishi belonged to all four Varnas.
Similar examples exist of Gritsamad, Veethavya and Vritsamati.
l. Matanga was son of Chandal but became a Brahmin.
m. Raavan was born from Pulatsya Rishi but became a Rakshas.
n. Pravriddha was son of Raghu King but became a Rakshas.
o. Trishanku was a king but became a Chandal
p. Sons of Vishwamitra became Shudra. Vishwamitra himself was a Kshatriya who later became a Brahmin.
q. Vidur was son of a servant but became a Brahmin and minister of Hastinapur empire.

 

[aristotle]

@Dogra Ji,
Please do a Google search on Apstambha Dharma Sutra. I had asked about the same from a Hindu priest and also seen the same in the printed translation he showed me.

 

[sanj007]

There is clear distinction between corrupted cultural practices and clear humanity of verses in scriptures, basic fact.
Corrupt indivuduals wanted to maintain their offspring in more wealthy positions hence corruption, but we will state to truth of Vedas and to help vanquish social evil of birth base caste not in scriptures-fact

 

[sanj007]

can u provide link

 

[sanj007]

can you comment on following verse:

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=64 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64 height=17>In sloka (X.20)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>"I am the Self seated in the heart of all creatures. I am the beginning, the middle and the very end of all beings". All beings have, therefore to be treated alike</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[aristotle]

That means the Hinduism that is prevalent in India today is different from the Hinduism of the Vedas?
In fact, the Vedas, Upanishdas, Bhashyas, Upbhashyas, Puranas don't agree on even the basic points. Hinduism appears to me as a porridge of different sects and cults, with each one blowing his/her own trumpet.

 

[aristotle]

@DograJi,
I'm not talking on any more quotes until you answer me about that single quote.
And for the link part, please help yourselves.

 

[sanj007]

It means there are some Hindus do not follow the scriptures and some who do.
Hinduism is oldest religion and so clear corruption has occured, as each individual human being is an individual and being tagged with Hindu means nothing and they will never attain MOKSHA- end game of Hinduism, merging with God if they discriminate and do not behave nobly.

You say blowing trumpet, well your choice I dont agree.
Clear verses which reconcile to primal messages have been provided, when something does not reconcile basic questioning will reveal the truth

Can you answer the main messages in Hinduism

 

[aristotle]

First answer me about that quote from the Apstambha Dharma Sutra.
That quote is very specific about the 'caste by birth' part and the discouragement of the Shudras.

 

[sanj007]

Will send your request to learned Agniveer, so hopefully in a few days response will come.
Now can you respond to clear verses which do not state birth based caste as clearly shown and how what you have just said above does not reconcile with these primal messages?
Note how can God reside in hearts of ALL beings if what you say is right? how can a person attain MOKSHA if he/she discriminates?

 

[aristotle]

@DograJi,
I'm not for vain discussions. First bring the answer to that quote, then talk with me. I'll wait....

 

[sanj007]

WELL, these are primal messages :

1) Lord Krishna: God resides in hearts of ALL beings.

2) Karma Yoga-Selfless service

3) Moksha-end game for hindu faith, but merging with god only allowed if lead a noble life

can you respond to these primal points, otherwise how can you hope to understand later points?

 

[aristotle]

@Dogra Ji,
This isn't a thread discussing Hindu philosophy in detail. I just want an answer to that quote which specifically talks of 'casteism by birth' in Hinduism. As I said, no need to rush, I'll wait till you get the answer.