Grammer / Vyakarn Gurbani Vyakaran (Viyakaran, Vayakaran, Viakaran) - Punjabi Grammar

[prakash.s.bagga]

Prakash ji
Please share more on this. I want to know how the grammar in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is similar to Sanskrit. Some concrete examples perhaps?

We know Braj is the most common language in Gurbani. How does this compare with Sanskrit?

Thanks

Bhagat Singh Ji,
I would request you to contact me at psbagga@sms.co.in.
I would avoid giving you the details as some very very important personality of the Forum does not like even to talk of Sanskrit,
as if Sanskrit is banned for us.You know this very well.
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[BhagatSingh]

Prakash ji,
I would rather you share it on the forum but it is your choice. I want to know but I also want others to know. Do not worry about Ambarsaria ji, he is full of passion, misdirected passion but passion nonetheless. We can learn something from that. You are full of knowledge and we can learn something from that too. Thus let him do his thing and you do yours. Please go on and share your knowledge of Sanskrit.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Bhagat Singh ji,
In Punjabi Grammar and Gurbanee grammar there is only one fundamental difference .And this deference is for the classification of NOUN words. The difference is as under

In Punjabi Grammar the Noun words are classified in two basic class as SINGULAR and PLURAL.

In Sanskrit Grammar the NOUN words are classified in three Basic Classes as

SINGULAR...Single Number(EK VACHAN)

SINGULAR...Dual NUMBER and(DWI VACHAN)

PLURAL......Many Numbers (BAHU VACHAN)

Any one can verify this from any basic grammar literature of School level.

It is important to understand How this concept of Sanskrit Grammar Pattern is applicable in Gurbanee.
In actual Sanskrit Language the the word NOUN has different form for SINGULAR(EK VACHAN),SINGULAR(DWIVACHAN) and PLURAL
Whereas in Gurbanee the form of the NOUN word is SAME but its classification as SINGULAR(EK VACHAN),SINGULAR(DWIVACHAN) and PLURAL has been indicated thru
Long Matras of the Vowels A ,E,I,O,and U.
Out of these long matras if we consider the application of matra of Vowel U we find that
SINGULAR word with SIngle Number is with a matra of Aukad that is a Single line under its last letter
SINGULAR word with Dual Number is with a matra of Dulaikad that is two lines under its last letter and
PLURAL with many numbers is the word without any matra.

So we can see that in Gurbanee Noun words are as per pattern of Sanskrit grammar.
This any one can observe and conclude but we outrighly reject this pattern without giving any logical reason to reject this.
How this pattern of grammar in Gurbanee affects the meanings and understanding of Gurbanee is equally important to know.
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Prakash ji
Please share more on this. I want to know how the grammar in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is similar to Sanskrit. Some concrete examples perhaps?

We know Braj is the most common language in Gurbani. How does this compare with Sanskrit?

Thanks

It should be very clear that I have never menntioned that the Language of SGGS is similar to Sanskrit.
I always emphasise that there are several languages in SGGS other than Punjabi and that the PATTERN OF GRAMMAR_ of Gurbanee words is that of -Sanskrit.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[BhagatSingh]

Prakash ji,
Where can we observe that pattern? How can we know if that pattern is there?
So if someone who has no knowledge of Sanskrit were to study SGGS, how could he come to the conclusion that Gur is plural, Guru is singular and Guroo is sigular-dual?

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Prakash ji,
Where can we observe that pattern? How can we know if that pattern is there?
So if someone who has no knowledge of Sanskrit were to study Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, how could he come to the conclusion that Gur is plural, Guru is singular and Guroo is sigular-dual?

There are several Sabad in SGGS with contents of words conform to the pattern of Sanskrit grammar as indicated.One such Quote is as

ਗੁਰੁ ਜਹਾਜੁ ਖੇਵਟੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਤਰਿਆ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1401}

In this quote you will find all the three words with different reference meanings too.

The word GuR is Plural and the word GuRu is Singular this you can find in all Gurbanee grammar books.But surprisingly all these books are silent on the grammar of the word GuRoo(only in one book I could see this also being mentiond as Singular)and that book is by Joginder Singh Talwara ji
This is not explained for its class.
If you are able to see the grammar of the word GuRoo in any Sanskrit book you will find there as this word as DWI VACHAN.(KARTA KARAK)

This is the domain of grammar which is missing in our understanding.It is shear out of observatons that I could see this pattern of words for every NOUN word in Gurbanee.That is why I have been writing so .Otherwise I am not that foolish to go for telling something which is not existing in Gurbanee.I am a Sikh too.

One will have to give a rethinking as a whole only then one would appreciate this otherwise the most easiest way is outright rejection.
I would not care for rejection as long as I am serving my GuRu.

Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

In the above its clear that GUR..is representing the CREATOR...Gur jahaaz..Gur Parsaad...the Aunkadd signifies CAPITAL ...PROPER NOUN...and GURU would be any "teacher"...Guru Nanak..Guru Angad..Guru Granth....HE the CREATOR has to bestow His GURPARSAAD...and HE ALONE can GRANT MUKTEE......

Its quite SIMPLE actually..if we begin to eat the mangoes instead of counting how many trees are there..:blueturban:

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

In the above its clear that GUR..is representing the CREATOR...Gur jahaaz..Gur Parsaad...the Aunkadd signifies CAPITAL ...PROPER NOUN...and GURU would be any "teacher"...Guru Nanak..Guru Angad..Guru Granth....HE the CREATOR has to bestow His GURPARSAAD...and HE ALONE can GRANT MUKTEE......

Its quite SIMPLE actually..if we begin to eat the mangoes instead of counting how many trees are there..:blueturban:

I hope you may probably accept a fact that sometimes the SIMPLEST things are most difficult to understand and swallow.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[BhagatSingh]

Like enlightenment

 

[Ambarsaria]

In reference to Prakash.S.Bagga ji's approach to make mountains out of mole hills let us review again for nth time, not that it is going to make any difference to him to introduce Hinduvta concepts of multiple Creators, versus one creator espoused in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Sikhism,

ਗੁਰੁ --ਗੁਰ ਹੀ; ਗੁਰ ਜੀ -- creator is; respected creator of; of the creator

ਜਹਾਜੁ -- ਜਹਾਜ ਹੀ; ਜਹਾਜ ਹੈ -- as ship; ship is

ਖੇਵਟੁ -- ਖੇਵਟ ਹੈ -- is Oarsman

ਗੁਰੂ -- ਗੁਰ ਅਧਿਆਪਕ; ਗੁਰ ਸਾਡੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਗੁਰੂ -- teaching of the creator; creator is teacher of our teacher (Guru ji)

ਗੁਰ -- One Creator

ਬਿਨੁ -- without one

Note: ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ --- Singular as combination (without one creator)

ਤਰਿਆ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥

ਗੁਰ

ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ

ਪ੍ਰਭੁ -- ਪ੍ਰਭ ਹੀ; ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜੀ -- one creator; respected creator

ਪਾਈਐ

ਗੁਰ

ਬਿਨੁ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1401}

The word GuR is Plural

Sanskrit or not through this Prakash.S.Bagga ji tries to attack the core concept of Sikhism. That is of one creator.

The word ਗੁਰ is not plural as used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. One infinite creator by definition is singularity or plurality unaffected.

Gur as one creator. He brings in indirectly the Hinduvta concepts of Ramu, Shamu, etc., as a collection of creator's constellation versus any metaphoric or other use of such names in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

word GuRu is Singular this you can find in all Gurbanee grammar books.

This is simply stated that unless you see this word then multiple creator's are mentioned or to be believed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji whenever you see ਗੁਰ. It is false as see the difference described above between ਗੁਰ ਗੁਰੁ.

But surprisingly all these books are silent on the grammar of the word GuRoo(only in one book I could see this also being mentiond as Singular)and that book is by Joginder Singh Talwara ji

A child in a village, a kid in primary school knows GuRooਗੁਰੂ to be Singular. So I don't understand the great revelations he claims to be making.
Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Luckysingh]

Here we are discussing which language terms or phraseology is more appropriate and correct.
Let's not forget that Guru Nanak Dev Ji introduced us to a new language that others couldn't quite grasp in those times- the DIVINE language.
The DIVINE language is the special coded messages addressed to and from God.

His divine language was not like the other religions and gods BUT it was the messages for everyone that we could all take from the shabad.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

We should keep a very fact in mind that the very word "GuRoo" which is the fundamental Base word of Gurbanee is from SANSKRIT.

Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[Ambarsaria]

We should keep a very fact in mind that the very word "GuRoo" which is the fundamental Base word of Gurbanee is from SANSKRIT.

Prakash.s.Bagga

Prakash.S.Bagga ji you are just grabbing on to straws. This is not about winning or losing but common sense and not super sense.

Let us please stop this basic stuff exploitation. Languages adapt, adopt and assimilate words all the time. The words get meaning in the language, say Punjabi, as the given word is adapted, adopted and assimilated. The word Guru or your so called phonetic version "Guroo" is clearly understood in its usage by 99.9999% of the Sikhs. I don't know about your education in Punjabi but as soon as we could speak along with basic math we recited each and everyday the following along with math tables,

• Pehli Patshahi Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji
• Duji Patshai Sri Guru Angad Dev ji
• ..... and for all the ten Guru jis

Is their confusion as to what is meant when we say "Guru Nanak Dev ji"? Not to me but perhaps one like you based on your continuous dwelling on Sanskrit.

Guru has been adapted, used and understood in Punjab and Punjabi way before our forefathers were born. Guru is most respectful teacher. Someone you look up to for wisdom, learning, and so on.

Why are you bringing all these tangential Sanskrit stuff to reverse adaptations, adoptions and assimilation to ascribe meanings that a given new language really could not care less for in spite of the origin two thousand plus years ago. Look in the English dictionaries how they have adopted the word Guru in less religious ways as simply to mean a leader, an expert and so on. You believe you are going to tell the world to read Upanishads and stop using words as they have been adopted. Such would be utter and useless endeavor and not as noble as one may pretend or claim. There is no value to this other than to confuse or appear an expert and more knowledgeable.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Prakash.S.Bagga ji you are just grabbing on to straws. This is not about winning or losing but common sense and not super sense.

Let us please stop this basic stuff exploitation. Languages adapt, adopt and assimilate words all the time. The words get meaning in the language, say Punjabi, as the given word is adapted, adopted and assimilated. The word Guru or your so called phonetic version "Guroo" is clearly understood in its usage by 99.9999% of the Sikhs. I don't know about your education in Punjabi but as soon as we could speak along with basic math we recited each and everyday the following along with math tables,

• Pehli Patshahi Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji
• Duji Patshai Sri Guru Angad Dev ji
• ..... and for all the ten Guru jis

Is their confusion as to what is meant when we say "Guru Nanak Dev ji"? Not to me but perhaps one like you based on your continuous dwelling on Sanskrit.

Guru has been adapted, used and understood in Punjab and Punjabi way before our forefathers were born. Guru is most respectful teacher. Someone you look up to for wisdom, learning, and so on.

Why are you bringing all these tangential Sanskrit stuff to reverse adaptations, adoptions and assimilation to ascribe meanings that a given new language really could not care less for in spite of the origin two thousand plus years ago. Look in the English dictionaries how they have adopted the word Guru in less religious ways as simply to mean a leader, an expert and so on. You believe you are going to tell the world to read Upanishads and stop using words as they have been adopted. Such would be utter and useless endeavor and not as noble as one may pretend or claim. There is no value to this other than to confuse or appear an expert and more knowledgeable.

Sat Sri Akal.

It seems that you are confused between language and religion. this seems to have stemmed out of your chanting of various religious verses in your childhood along with mathematical tables. As a result you neither understand religion nor mathematical logics. So it seems our feeling about each other of presenting ourselves as more knowledgeable is mutual.

Why else would you deviate from the basic questrion I presented and draw it to the arena of liguistic origins. If we go by the logic of "Adaptation" very soon we are going to have thousands of "gurus" because afterall adaptation of language is essentially adaptation of the Human behaviour. And due to this adaptaion only we have so many BABAS and So called Saints and this is ever increasing.

Therefore it is important to understand that Guranee is telling again again to contemplate on the word "GuRoo" only .

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Luckysingh]

Punjabi is a language that does descend from the medieval languages used in India.
Some words may be directly linked to sanskrit, some to persian and some to shauresani etc..etc..
There were adaptations of these medieval languages which resulted in punjabi.
But, just like the Sikhism, that came as a religion that was neither hindu or muslim, in effect it was adapted for those times.
Some still regard sikhism as an offspring religion, which it clearly is not.-as it has it's own unique identity and beliefs. Only by learning about it , does one realize this.

Prakashji, you are correct in the sense of saying that adaptation of language results in adaptation of human behaviour. Yes, this is how offspring sects are formed.
This is also the reason why sikhism is considered by some others as an offspring itself.

But, we can't keep going back to see what came 1st, that was not the idea. The idea was to move forward with sikhism and identify it with all things that stood for truth, without tracing backwards.
Guru Nanak ji said 'na koi hindu na musalman'
He didn't say we are all hindu and musalman and we should get on ahead.
He introduced the truth, that is above man made religions.
Followers of this concept are sikhs. Sikhs are unique in this aspect, we don't simply stand for some truthful concepts of islam and hindus put together or a few things from each faith mixed together. BUT, we are followers of the complete and whole truthful concept of one creator.

So,we should steer clear ahead of trying to retrace steps by going back, as going back brings the same mixed confusions of the people then.
Sikhism, even from it's inception was never meant to be a religion.Guru nanak dev ji never set out to form a new religion. It's what the people have made it.
Sikhi and it's teachings was a 'spiritual way of life- for the true lord, living by the truth'
This spiritual way of life exceeded all the religions of that time, it wasn't started to compete or otherwise with them.

The journey is now and ahead.


Waheguru

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

When we share something which is very important for developing the understanding of Gurbanee we should really be serious about this rather indulge in negative remarks.
On one side we say we are here to learn from each other by sharing the views .We should also know how to share the views.

There is no question of going back or forward when we are sharing the BASIC words of Gurbanee.With every word there is always some past attached to this.We are required to understand Gurbanee the way it is.We can not say that since languages keep on changing and accordingly we can manipulate .

Therefore for developing correct understanding of Gurbanee we will have to become familiar with the style (particularly grammar) to have correct understanding of the messages of Gurbanee otherwise we would always be moving in circles as the situation is existing.
Any one can see and verify the fact that the grammar of the word "GuRoo" is totally ommitted by all our scholars of the past and even present.Why so? The day we start giving a proper thinking to this word this is going to give you a new understanding of Gurbanee which we all may be missing till date.

I am presenting nothing from my own .I am presenting what is actually there in Gurbanee.If it is not so then I should be taken to task for that.

Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[Luckysingh]

It is because of this classification of a way of life in to a religion that sometimes we get lost and absorbed in unneccesary issues. A sikh has no reason to be comparing his way of life to other religions. Guru Nanak didn't say that I want people to be better than hindus or muslims.
It's when we started comparing religions and rituals such as eat pork or beef or non etc..etc... that we automatically try to define a better religion.
Guru Nanak wanted something that was above and away from all this comparing and contrasting.

As sikhs, we should have no problems interacting with other faiths and races.
We shouldn't compare and contrast other religions against ourselves or each other.- if we do, we are moving away from the 'why were sikhs formed' answer.

It is probably one of the reasons why I can happily watch and learn from 'Grace tv' channel for eg.. hours at a time when others wonder why I'm doing that.
I may be watching the abrahamic religions and their tv channels especially on Weekend mornings, but I am not for one second ever comparing them to sikhs. I can't see any reason to compare.
I am simply enjoying learning from others, I'm not getting brainwashed just because I may find some issues fascinating.
I live the way I live and I try to live every day with a better sikh way of life than the previous day.
Acknowledging and accepting other world religions is a way of life that I believe, I should lead.

 

[Luckysingh]

When we share something which is very important for developing the understanding of Gurbanee we should really be serious about this rather indulge in negative remarks.
On one side we say we are here to learn from each other by sharing the views .We should also know how to share the views.

There is no question of going back or forward when we are sharing the BASIC words of Gurbanee.With every word there is always some past attached to this.We are required to understand Gurbanee the way it is.We can not say that since languages keep on changing and accordingly we can manipulate .

Therefore for developing correct understanding of Gurbanee we will have to become familiar with the style (particularly grammar) to have correct understanding of the messages of Gurbanee otherwise we would always be moving in circles as the situation is existing.
Any one can see and verify the fact that the grammar of the word "GuRoo" is totally ommitted by all our scholars of the past and even present.Why so? The day we start giving a proper thinking to this word this is going to give you a new understanding of Gurbanee which we all may be missing till date.

I am presenting nothing from my own .I am presenting what is actually there in Gurbanee.If it is not so then I should be taken to task for that.

Prakash.s.Bagga

Prakash ji
You do have a valid point although, I don't as yet see the differentiation in the grammar of GuRoo. As to me the message and essence that I perceive from either terms used is still the same.
No, we can't keep manipulating for future. Yes, every word does have past and history attached, we can't deny this, in this sense we have to learn from past facts.
But, it is important that we don't get too attached in the time warp, as the living is for now, and we are to live the sikh way of life.
Having knowldege of past helps one move forward better, as long as we carry on.
Similar to taking 2 steps forward and 1 back, is better than '1'forward and '1' back.
We have to learn to draw the line and differentiate between 'now' and 'then'.

Waheguru

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

When we share something which is very important for developing the understanding of Gurbanee we should really be serious about this rather indulge in negative remarks.
On one side we say we are here to learn from each other by sharing the views .We should also know how to share the views.

There is no question of going back or forward when we are sharing the BASIC words of Gurbanee.With every word there is always some past attached to this.We are required to understand Gurbanee the way it is.We can not say that since languages keep on changing and accordingly we can manipulate .

Therefore for developing correct understanding of Gurbanee we will have to become familiar with the style (particularly grammar) to have correct understanding of the messages of Gurbanee otherwise we would always be moving in circles as the situation is existing.
Any one can see and verify the fact that the grammar of the word "GuRoo" is totally ommitted by all our scholars of the past and even present.Why so? The day we start giving a proper thinking to this word this is going to give you a new understanding of Gurbanee which we all may be missing till date.

I am presenting nothing from my own .I am presenting what is actually there in Gurbanee.If it is not so then I should be taken to task for that.

Prakash.s.Bagga

Prakash ji
You do have a valid point although, I don't as yet see the differentiation in the grammar of GuRoo. As to me the message and essence that I perceive from either terms used is still the same.
No, we can't keep manipulating for future. Yes, every word does have past and history attached, we can't deny this, in this sense we have to learn from past facts.
But, it is important that we don't get too attached in the time warp, as the living is for now, and we are to live the sikh way of life.
Having knowldege of past helps one move forward better, as long as we carry on.
Similar to taking 2 steps forward and 1 back, is better than '1'forward and '1' back.
We have to learn to draw the line and differentiate between 'now' and 'then'.

Waheguru

I fully agree with your views.You have the feeling of the essence of the messages independent of grammar consideration have I ever put any question on this.? This is absolutely concerned with your own state of viewing the messages.I would always respect your views.
But when there is a specific topic being shared we should know how this has to be shared otherwise it is of no use to share this at all.My views only reflect this aspect of sharing.
It is expected only those should share who atleast are convinced that there is some grammatical pattern in the language of Gurbanee and knowing this may be helpful in enhancing the correct understanding of Gurbanee.
Only then we can go ahead 1 step otherwise it is always 1 srep ahead and 5 steps back.
Nothing can be understoodor accepted without will.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[davinderdhanjal]

The development of Punjabi/Gurmukhi is very interesting and some people think it is the oldest language in the world. It is quite believable as most religions started in the North of India and due to invasions this area became stronger in language and spirit of self preservation.
It has its basis in Dravidian Munda group, Vadic languages, before Aryan, Sanskrit, later Persian and Turk inputs.
Most North Indian languages follow similar development to Punjabi - however during a period 3500BC to 600BC the history of development is patchy.
It clear that Punjabi is very versatile and can reproduce words and sounds in most languages and contains letters like t, T, f, F, x, V which are not present in any other language. So there is a content of Darvidian and Sanskrit words and some modified ones (a list can be provided).
The foot matras were introduced into Punjabi/Gurmukhi to include Sanskrit words that cannot be correctly written in other scripts. Later when the Islamic influence came in Punjab it spurned another refinement. Sikh Gurus right up to Guru Gobind Singh had refined the language to what we see today with all the matras.
It can be seen in the writings of our Gurus some used matras and some did not. Indeed in Hindi, I believe, one can write words with or without matras but it requires interpretation. Later additions of letters like ‘Z, ^, z’ etc. were introduced to reproduce exact sounds used in Persian language. So we are thankful to Guru Gobind Singh to present us with the perfected language in form of the Granth Sahib. There is some difficulty in adding a pdf copy of a chart. I shall try again later.

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