Grammer / Vyakarn Gurbani Vyakaran (Viyakaran, Vayakaran, Viakaran) - Punjabi Grammar

[davinderdhanjal]

Prakash.s.bagga Ji writes "Therefore it is important to understand that Guranee is telling again again to contemplate on the word "GuRoo" only"

I am not sure I agree with that statement - the word that one should contemplate on is what is given to one by a guru who leads one to the path to the Lord.

You may be interested to know that use of name for God/Lord in Granth Sahib in abundance is Hari/Har. Please show where your statement is in the Granth Sahib in case the context is missed.
The meanings of the word have been discussed a number of times by different contributors I list my version again

‘gur = igAwn dwqw, guru vwlw’
‘guru = mq dw clwx vwlw’
‘gurU = guru dw gurU’

These may not be all the meanings so please add your contribution of grammar to this to bring light to the subject.

Luckysingh Ji commented that we should not compare religions. I agree that we should not say that this religion is better than the other however let us take the example of Guru Nanak who not only ‘compared’ but showed us where the abuse was being created by Brahmins on the general public because they thought they were the chosen people. As you know eventually that is what threw out this hypocritical culture and also the heavy handed and unfair rule of the Muguls. He taught us to rely on ourselves and be true and fair and showed how it can be done by the contribution of ten Nanaks.

Luckysingh Ji, all I have said is in Granth Sahib please try pages 471/472 and may be more elsewhere.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

prakash.s.bagga Ji writes "Therefore it is important to understand that Guranee is telling again again to contemplate on the word "GuRoo" only"
I am not sure I agree with that statement - the word that one should contemplate on is what is given to one by a guru who leads one to the path to the Lord.
You may be interested to know that use of name for God/Lord in Granth Sahib in abundance is Hari/Har. Please show where your statement is in the Granth Sahib in case the context is missed.
The meanings of the word have been discussed a number of times by different contributors I list my version again
‘gur = igAwn dwqw, guru vwlw’
‘guru = mq dw clwx vwlw’
‘gurU = guru dw gurU’
These may not be all the meanings so please add your contribution of grammar to this to bring light to the subject.

Luckysingh Ji commented that we should not compare religions. I agree that we should not say that this religion is better than the other however let us take the example of Guru Nanak who not only ‘compared’ but showed us where the abuse was being created by Brahmins on the general public because they thought they were the chosen people. As you know eventually that is what threw out this hypocritical culture and also the heavy handed and unfair rule of the Muguls. He taught us to rely on ourselves and be true and fair and showed how it can be done by the contribution of ten Nanaks.
Luckysingh Ji, all I have said is in Granth Sahib please try pages 471/472 and may be more elsewhere.

I understood from your message about recognising the three words as gur,guru and gurU.Not more that this.
Now I wish to tell me about the meanings of these words according to your understanding so that I share the same with your goodself.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

DEVENDERDHANJAL Ji,
My undersanding of grammar of three words as mentionted by your goodself is as

WORD..............GENDER...................CLASS NUMBER
i i i
gur................ Masculine ................PLURAL..Many Numbers more than two

gur.................FEMININE ................SINGULAR..One Number

guru...............Masculine..................SINGULAR..One Number


gurU...............COMMON .................SINGULAR...One Number

I wish to understand your views on this grammar .

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

DAVENDER DHANJAL Ji,

There is a small mistake in the above message .Pl note that thegrammar of the word gurU is as
Gender Class ..Number
gurU............Common..........SINGULAR..TWO NUMBER

That is why I prefer to write the word gurU as guroo to avoid confusion with small and capital u.
I am soory for this mistake.
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[davinderdhanjal]

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WORD..............GENDER...................CLASS NUMBER
i i i
gur................ Masculine ................PLURAL..Many Numbers more than two
gur – gur dwqw is singular, gur vwlw – is also singular
gur.................FEMININE ................SINGULAR..One Number
guru...............Masculine..................SING ULAR..One Number
gurU...............COMMON .................SINGULAR...One Number
‘gurU – guru dw gurU’ is singular

I shall, when I find and example, pass on to you. It is important to ensure that the message in the bani is not misconstrued. There are examples, even to my naïve mind, where the English and Gurmukhi interpretations do not agree with the Gurbani writing. If you find that may be we should bring it to the attention of our contributors. That way we will all be able to understand why we need to labour the grammar so much.

[/FONT]

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

prakash.s.bagga Ji,
WORD..............GENDER...................CLASS NUMBER
i i i
gur................ Masculine ................PLURAL..Many Numbers more than two
gur – gur dwqw is singular, gur vwlw – is also singular
gur.................FEMININE ................SINGULAR..One Number
guru...............Masculine..................SING ULAR..One Number
gurU...............COMMON .................SINGULAR...One Number
‘gurU – guru dw gurU’ is singular

I shall, when I find and example, pass on to you. It is important to ensure that the message in the bani is not misconstrued. There are examples, even to my naïve mind, where the English and Gurmukhi interpretations do not agree with the Gurbani writing. If you find that may be we should bring it to the attention of our contributors. That way we will all be able to understand why we need to labour the grammar so much.[/FONT]

Thanks,Davender Dhanjal ji.
Pl note that the word gurU is SINGULAR but Dual NUMBER.This is the most fundamental difference between the grammar of the words guru and gurU.
I shall look forward to your examples and share them accordingly.
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[Luckysingh]

<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>Page 1237

ਨਵ ਛਿਅ ਖਟ ਕਾ ਕਰੇ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

Nav cẖẖi▫a kẖat kā kare bīcẖār.

You may study the nine grammars, the six Shaastras and the six divisions of the Vedas.


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਿਸਿ ਦਿਨ ਉਚਰੈ ਭਾਰ ਅਠਾਰ ॥

Nis ḏin ucẖrai bẖār aṯẖār.

You may recite the Mahaabhaarata.


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤਿਨਿ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਤੋਹਿ ॥

Ŧin bẖī anṯ na pā▫i▫ā ṯohi.

Even these cannot find the limits of the Lord.


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਮ ਬਿਹੂਣ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਿਉ ਹੋਇ ॥

Nām bihūṇ mukaṯ ki▫o ho▫e.

Without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, how can anyone be liberated?



</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Yes Lucky ji...
Guru Ji has already advised us...Parrh parrh gadee ladeeyeah...Study study study as much as truck full of books...gets you nowhere sans UNDERSTANDING...

1. The ESSENCE is already given in MOOL MANTAR. Rest of SGGS is EXPERINCING MOOL MANTAR in various ways by various means, by various persons, religious affiliations, etc..BUT the Basic Understanding is the Same in each author's experiences of the MOOL..the CREATOR.

2. The CREATOR and HIS CREATION is the "SHABD"...and thats why its written..BANNEE GURU...GURU HAI BANNEE....IF we take "Bannee" to be merely "words on paper...or as a binary file on a computer hdd, thumb drive, on the Internet..as an image on a CD/DVD/film...whatever...then we are LOST COMPLETELY ( and unfortunatley MOST are LOST..which is hsown by their actions...like insisting on covering your head/monitor/computer cpu etc because of "bannee" inside..insist on taking off your shoes when surfing the WEB because you may accidentally open a web page with "Bannee" in it...( A friend actually thought that his "Amrit" was BROKEN because one day while surfing the web sitting shirtless, turban unwound..he went for a drink in the kitchen and his teenage son logged on to a Sikh forum like SPN..and he thus accidentally saw what his son told him is a Punjabi poem....but on closer look he recognised a"Shabd"....and went haywire...OMG. ... "Bannee"....his first thought was..Oh my Guru..i have done such a big paap..disrespected Bannee..my amrit is ruined..i cant do nitnem until i have sought out the panj and rechhak amrit ..!!....AND i can ASSURE you this is not an isolated case...almost ALL persons who chhak amrit from places like DERAS/nanaksar/Taksaal etc are all brainwashed like that)....anyway i dgress...my point is that GURU-GURBANNEE-SHABD..is THE CREATOR..described in MOOL MANTAR..and the Bottom line is to MOULD OUR DAILY LIVES to be in TUNE with that..TRUTHFUL LIVING !!! which is GREATER/HIGHER.. than even TRUTH declared GURU NANAK !! TRUTHFUL LIVING entrails undertsanding of the Creator..His ways..his creation..and emulating HIM...not arguing about his Gender..his this and his that..splitting endless hairs of small "i" and capital "I"s..dotting the i....and crossing the t....measuring the circumference of the tree and measuring the thickness of its roots and bark....while its SWEET FRUITS FALL to the GROUND and waste away right in front of us....WHO in his right mind will call us "WISE"..we are merely donkeys loaded with books...NO APOLOGY intended or implied.:motherlylove::grinningkaur:kaurhugmundahuglolswordfight

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>Page 1237

ਨਵ ਛਿਅ ਖਟ ਕਾ ਕਰੇ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

Nav cẖẖi▫a kẖat kā kare bīcẖār.

You may study the nine grammars, the six Shaastras and the six divisions of the Ved



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਿਸਿ ਦਿਨ ਉਚਰੈ ਭਾਰ ਅਠਾਰ ॥

Nis ḏin ucẖrai bẖār aṯẖār.

You may recite the Mahaabhaarata.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਤਿਨਿ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਤੋਹਿ ॥

Ŧin bẖī anṯ na pā▫i▫ā ṯohi.

Even these cannot find the limits of the Lord.



</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਮ ਬਿਹੂਣ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਿਉ ਹੋਇ ॥

Nām bihūṇ mukaṯ ki▫o ho▫e.

Without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, how can anyone be liberated?




</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Do you think that this context is applicable to Gurbanee.?
If so then we should discontinue this thread for ever.
This is my personal suggestion.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

The LAST LINE is the BOTTOM LINE..and it doesnt apply to Gurbanee..ONLY IF we dont treat Gurbani the same way..."Analyse the i...and I..t and T..etc till the cows come home...try to link Gurbani to sanskrit vedas pandehys pandits etc..and conduct "study/paath" like a Mantra...in THAT way even Gurbanee cannot help you realise HIM..
GURBANI VICHAAR..is NOT "khalee vichaar" or empty understanding..Gurbani Vichaar means APPLICATION of GURBANI in our life...on a DAILY BASIS to change it...IF we DONT CHANGE..then we are doing it WRONG. Practical use of "SOAP"..is DEH SABUN layeha uh dhoyeh...Sabun works with WATER..."vichaar" on a sabun tikee without rubbing it on dirty cloth and using water to make the suds...WONT make the Cloth CHANGE form dirty to clean...PRACTISE GURBANNEE to change our LIFE.
Parrh Parrh gadee laddeah also applies to SGGS..if we do it THAT WAY..doing thousands of Paaths of SGGS..will NOT help us CHANGE if we do it as a sort of Mantra...using Malas to count pages etc..

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

The LAST LINE is the BOTTOM LINE..and it doesnt apply to Gurbanee..ONLY IF we dont treat Gurbani the same way..."Analyse the i...and I..t and T..etc till the cows come home...try to link Gurbani to sanskrit vedas pandehys pandits etc..and conduct "study/paath" like a Mantra...in THAT way even Gurbanee cannot help you realise HIM..
GURBANI VICHAAR..is NOT "khalee vichaar" or empty understanding..Gurbani Vichaar means APPLICATION of GURBANI in our life...on a DAILY BASIS to change it...IF we DONT CHANGE..then we are doing it WRONG. Practical use of "SOAP"..is DEH SABUN layeha uh dhoyeh...Sabun works with WATER..."vichaar" on a sabun tikee without rubbing it on dirty cloth and using water to make the suds...WONT make the Cloth CHANGE form dirty to clean...PRACTISE GURBANNEE to change our LIFE.
Parrh Parrh gadee laddeah also applies to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..if we do it THAT WAY..doing thousands of Paaths of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..will NOT help us CHANGE if we do it as a sort of Mantra...using Malas to count pages etc..

Your views are nicely worded .
Is Gurbanne Vichhar a referefnce for Gurbanee practice.?
What constitutes Gurbanee Vichaar?
Why cant we have clear views about Vichaar?
You feel that we should not give any consideration to i or I...u and U
that means there is no significance of these indications?
We all say that BANEE is GURU but from Gurbanee we can learn that BANEE is GuRu .Who should be accepted Persons or GUrbanee.?
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

prakash.s.bagga Ji,
WORD..............GENDER...................CLASS NUMBER
i i i
gur................ Masculine ................PLURAL..Many Numbers more than two
gur – gur dwqw is singular, gur vwlw – is also singular
gur.................FEMININE ................SINGULAR..One Number
guru...............Masculine..................SING ULAR..One Number
gurU...............COMMON .................SINGULAR...One Number
‘gurU – guru dw gurU’ is singular

I shall, when I find and example, pass on to you. It is important to ensure that the message in the bani is not misconstrued. There are examples, even to my naïve mind, where the English and Gurmukhi interpretations do not agree with the Gurbani writing. If you find that may be we should bring it to the attention of our contributors. That way we will all be able to understand why we need to labour the grammar so much.[/FONT]

When you correctly apply the grammatical understanding of Gurbanee words I may tell the interpretation of the messages is certainly going to be different than what you might have understood till now.
It is obvious because till date Gurbanee has not been understood as per Grammar of Gurbanee words as it should have been.
Acceptance or rejection would be as per your own analysis.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Ambarsaria]

It is obvious because till date Gurbanee has not been understood as per Grammar of Gurbanee words as it should have been.
Acceptance or rejection would be as per your own analysis.
Prakash.S.Bagga

By Who Prakash.S.Bagga ji? There is no book of Grammar that all contributors in SGGS followed. So stop talking or creating such a book or implied garbage as Sanskrit Grammar being synonymous with Gurbani Grammar or anything else.

You keep throwing stones and don't offer or share any of your own understanding? It is pretty disgusting. Guru ji's and others are not here to confirm if Vyakaran, Talwara's work or anything else they used as guidance or rules to conform to. You cannot create rules after the fact. You can make cheat sheets but that is all these can be.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

By Who Prakash.S.Bagga ji? There is no book of Grammar that all contributors in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji followed. So stop talking or creating such a book or implied garbage as Sanskrit Grammar being synonymous with Gurbani Grammar or anything else.

You keep throwing stones and don't offer or share any of your own understanding? It is pretty disgusting. Guru ji's and others are not here to confirm if Vyakaran, Talwara's work or anything else they used as guidance or rules to conform to. You cannot create rules after the fact. You can make cheat sheets but that is all these can be.

Sat Sri Akal.

I am glad to have my Critiic like you.I derive more strenth to understand from your critic remarks.
Many Many thanks for this
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[Khalistani_lion]

A simple farmer found a piece of some "shining" material in the forest one day...and he picked it up and..looked at it...he was surprised to see what seemed to him to be a picture of his dead father..He took home the material and hid it in the Barn. Every so often he would sneak into the barn and look at his daddy...soon his wife noticed this strange behaviour and decided to spy on him...she noted that he took out something from the hay stack....she waited for him to exit..and then went in and took out the object...OMG she screamed..so this is what hes hiding..the ras.cal..she was out of her clothes in a arge...grabbed the object and ran to the village sarpanch to lodge a complaint against her husband...SEE whats he looking at daily..she screamed pushing the object in front of the sarpanch's Face...OH..Where did your husband get this picture of MY dead daddy..screamed the sarpanch...and whoever looked at the object..couldnt quite understand what the others were screaming about...

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is like that MIRROR..the Simple farmer found...Each person who "looked" in it..SAW something DIFFERENT...and thats why we cannot "understand" whats the others are screaming about...What we see is what WE SEE...no one else can SEE the SAME THING...cheerleader
HECK..I have been looking at this Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji mirror daily for the past 50 years..FIVE DECADES..on a daily basis alone, with family, with my students.....I "see" a different PICTURE daily...changing each day...once I had no hair on my face..then i had a stubble..then jet black hair a feet long..then streaks of white..then wrinkles..spectacles changed to contact lenses and now to Laser eyes...and IF JUST ME cna CHANGE so MUCH....how can i ever expect to beleive that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the SAME....what does mY GURU JI tell me..He says..SATGUR MERA NITT NAVAN..Mera satgur is Daily RENEWED !!! THATS the Bottom line guys..the SATGUR is different for each one of us even on a daily basis....look at HIM..get his MESSAGE which is EXCLUSIVELY FOR YOU and YOU ALONE....

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!

Giani Ji, what Daas understood from your message is that Gurbani takes different meaning for anyone who reads it according to his/her state of mind (avastha). As husband looked at same thing differently than his wife and so does Sarpanch. When reading someone's translations of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, one should also keep in mind that those written translations are from that writer's perspective only, and need not be the only message Guru Sahib Ji is giving in that Shabad. That same shabad could give different message to another person.

I read this somewhere:
ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਬਾਤ ਮੇਂ ਬਾਤ ਹੈ, ਜੈਸੇ ਕੇਲੇ ਕੇ ਪਾਤ ਪਾਤ ਮੇਂ ਪਾਤ ਹੈ।

Please correct me if Daas is wrong.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Khalistani_lion ji thanks for your post

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!

Giani Ji, what Daas understood from your message is that Gurbani takes different meaning for anyone who reads it according to his/her state of mind (avastha).

.....................

Please correct me if Daas is wrong.

It has been even academically established (sorry I don't have a quick reference but it has been previously noted in another post) that there is no perfect translation of any poetry in any language. The poetic expression in a way is even a summary of the feelings, thoughts, observations, wisdom, etc., that a poet tries to convey at any instance when they write it. It in many ways is purest of expressions of the moment.

Within bounds of language one can reasonably understand but to claim exact or seek exact is futile. Hence all these proponents of looking for perfection in all translation are ignoring some basics facts. In criticizing or suggesting that nothing is perfect appears like oxy-{censored}ic statements. They use this to discourage Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji study by pre-setting rules, hypothetical prevailing grammar rules of the Guru ji's times, expectations, litmus tests, etc. These are the worst actions one can take in discouraging people from studying, say Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Sorry to ramble on but I feel very strongly about such people who are mis-guiding or discouraging a layman's association with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

We should encourage as many translations and encourage people to post or share as we will all learn something unique every time. There of course are some basic grammar and vocabulary bounds but that is about it.

The beauty of poetry also lies in the fact that a person with limited education but with a pure desire may understand with little to no effort while scholars with much effort may totally miss the point.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Khalistani_lion]

Perhaps worth noting that all work done many centuries after Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was composed are our attempts and of some esteemed scholars like Prof. Sahib Singh ji and others. Languages change with times so we need to keep ourselves in tune to the message versus get stuck in comparing who is best at defining what grammatical rules or books our Guru ji's or older Bhagats like Kabir ji used in their compositions or not.

Let us not get carried away and lose sight that it is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that we are trying to understand as written and as Guru ji wanted us to read and understand it. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not written for any elite even though the learned one's can help in making it more right to understand and easy to understand.

The following quick references for Punjabi Grammar including Prof. Sahib Singh ji's Vyakaran,

I have uploaded the book in side-by-side two facing pages format per the URL below,
http://s802.photobucket.com/albums/yy301/Happy2iam/Gurbani Vyakaran/

General Punjabi Grammar for all to find help in perhaps can be also of great use as follows,
http://punjabi.aglsoft.com/punjabi/learngrammar/

It will be great to learn by quoting complete sabads and then having a discourse. Just a suggestion.

Let us go.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: I believe it is important to note that there are not different Grammars for Punjabi and Gurbani. The differences of note could only be observed, if such exist, due to the writings in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji being almost 600+ years old (Kabir ji) versus the Punjabi in the days of Guru ji's (500 years ago) and Punjabi of today. First and foremost it should be all considered Punjabi but of different times.

I just downloaded all pics of Punjabi Viakaran shared by Ambarsaria Veer. If someone needs pdf file of these let me know as it took me long to download each pic, and its easier to download whole pdf together.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Satgur mera Nit Navan..means exactly that...we need translations as abeginning..and the we MUST "progress" to our own UNDERSTANDING...and this understanding changes each time we do vichaar on any shabds as Guru Jis Kirpa is showered on us....to take that an "onion" is simply that shriveled red skin is foolish...new layers open up each time we remove one layer from our eyes...the Guru is as deep as the deepest ocean..those who seek only at the surface almost always satisfied with DEAD FISH becasue dead fish float near the surface...the diamonds are deep down..in the depths...and we need scuba equipment for that..

 

[Serjinder Singh]

Panjabi in Gurtbani was Used mostly by First, Second, and the third Guru ji. The Extent of Hindi Begins to increase onward and the Bani of ninth Guruji Almost entirely is in Hindi. the Language of Dasam Granth except for Zafarnama and Chandi di var is in Braj Bhasha.

By declaring over the rooftops that SGGS is in Panjabi we have alienated Hindus from Panjabi.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Serjinder Singh ji thanks for your post. One comment below,

Panjabi in Gurtbani was Used mostly by First, Second, and the third Guru ji. The Extent of Hindi Begins to increase onward and the Bani of ninth Guruji Almost entirely is in Hindi. the Language of Dasam Granth except for Zafarnama and Chandi di var is in Braj Bhasha.

By declaring over the rooftops that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is in Panjabi we have alienated Hindus from Panjabi.

Please post one complete Shabad from SGGS that you think is written in Hindi. By the way use of few Hindi words, Persian words, Sanskrit words in a Shabad does not change the core language of the Shabad.

You can use the following website to cut and paste from.

srigranth.org

I am fascinated by your declaration and would like to learn the truth.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: We cannot care less if people don't want to respect the language Punjabi. You probably too young too to realize the slogan of the day when Punjab (Punjabi) was destroyed by creating Haryana, etc. Brother slogan was "Hindu-Hindi-Hindustan" and it was openly shouted bu Jan Sangh and Arya Samaj in Punjab.