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Guru And God No Difference

Sardara123

SPNer
Jan 9, 2008
400
7
guru prmysru eyko jwxu ] (864-9, goNf, mÚ 5)
gur parmaysar ayko jaan.
Know that the Guru and the Transcendent Lord are One.
jo iqsu BwvY so prvwxu ]1] rhwau ] (864-9, goNf, mÚ 5)
jo tis bhaavai so parvaan. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Whatever pleases Him is acceptable and approved. ||1||Pause||


Thankyou so much for starting this thread. Reading through this thread creates a feeling of watching a video about- Guru Arjan Dev Ji vs Chandoo.

This thread has made this neech realize how to ignore the work of Iness(own and others both). It has turned into a great lesson for me moor. Before I used to be scared of talking about Guru Shabad like this - God and Guru no difference, All is He Himself, We need to accept whatever happens as His Will. But after reading this thread again and again, I know already what any other person who doesn't believe in God can come up with to oppose or try to manipulate the truth, there is nothing to be scared of. Guru Shabad is the Only Truth- Aad Sach Jugaad Sach Hai Bhi Sach Nanak Hosee Bhi Sach.

Like a boot camp, It shaped me well. I am all set.

Thank you:thumbup:.
 
Oct 14, 2007
3,369
54
Sachkhand
ਗੋਂਡ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਭਗਵੰਤੁ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਦੇਉ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਉ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਪੂਜ ਚਰਨ ਗੁਰ ਸੇਉ ॥੧॥ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਮੈ ਥਾਉ ॥ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਜਪਉ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਭਗਵਾਨੁ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਰਹਉ ਕਰ ਜੋਰਿ ॥ ਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਹੋਰੁ ॥੨॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਬੋਹਿਥੁ ਤਾਰੇ ਭਵ ਪਾਰਿ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਜਮ ਤੇ ਛੁਟਕਾਰਿ ॥ ਅੰਧਕਾਰ ਮਹਿ ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਉਜਾਰਾ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਗਲ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ॥੩॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਦੂਖੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੀ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਮੇਟੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 864}
******************************************************************

pdArQ:- BgvMqu—smrQw vwlw [ dyau—pRkwS-rUp pRBU [ AlK—A-l`K, ijs dw srUp ibAwn qoN pry hY [ AByau—A-Byau, ijs dw Byq nhIN pwieAw jw skdw [ srb pUj crn gur—gurU dy crn ijnHW dI pUjw swrI isRStI krdI hY [ syau—syauN, mYN syNvdw hW [1[
Avru Qwau—hor QW [ Anidnu—hr roz [ jpau—jpauN, mYN jpdw hW [1[rhwau[
igAwnu—Dwrimk crcw [ irdY—ihrdy ivc [ iDAwnu—smwDI [ rhau—rhauN, mYN rihMdw hW [ kr joir—(dovyN) h`Q joV ky [ horu—hor QW [2[
boihbu—jhwz [ Bv—sMswr-smuMdr [ qy—qoN [ Cutkwir—^lwsI [ AMDkwr—Gu`p hnyrw [ mMqRü—aupdyS, Sbd [ aujwrw—cwnx [ kY sMig—dI sMgiq ivc [ sgl—swry jIv [ insqwrw—pwr-auqwrw [3[
vfBwgI—v`fy BwgW nwl [ pweIAY—imldw hY [4[

********************************************************************

ArQ:- hy BweI! (mwieAw dy moh dy Gu`p hnyry ivcoN bcx leI) gurU qoN ibnw mYƒ koeI hor QW nhIN su`Jdw (ijs dw Awsrw lY skW [ so) mYN hr vyly gurU dw nwm hI jpdw hW (gurU dI Et q`kI bYTw hW) [1[rhwau[

hy BweI! (myrw) gurU (gurU dI srn hI) myry vwsqy (dyv-) pUjw hY, (myrw) gurU goibMd (dw rUp) hY [ myrw gurU prmwqmw (dw rUp) hY, gurU bVI smrQw dw mwlk hY [ myrw gurU aus pRkwS-rUp pRBU dw rUp hY ijs dw srUp ibAwn nhIN kIqw jw skdw Aqy ijs dw Byq nhIN pwieAw jw skdw [ mYN qW auhnW gur-crnW dI srn ipAw rihMdw hW ijnHW ƒ swrI isRStI pUjdI hY [1[
hy BweI! gurU hI myry vwsqy Dwrimk crcw hY, gurU (sdw myry) ihrdy ivc itikAw hoieAw hY, iehI myrI smwDI hY [ gurU aus Bgvwn dw rUp hY jo srb-ivAwpk hY Aqy isRStI dw pwlxhwr hY [ mYN (Awpxy) dovyN h`Q joV ky (sdw) gurU dI srn ipAw rihMdw hW [ gurU qoN ibnw mYƒ koeI hor Awsrw nhIN su`Jdw [2[

hy BweI! gurU jhwz hY jo sMswr-smuMdr qoN pwr lµGw lYNdw hY [ gurU dI srn ipAW jmW (dy fr) qoN ^lwsI iml jWdI hY [ (mwieAw dy moh dy) Gu`p hnyry ivc gurU dw aupdyS hI (Awqmk jIvn dw) cwnx dyNdw hY [ gurU dI sMgiq ivc irhW swry jIvW dw pwr-auqwrw ho jWdw hY [3[

hy BweI! v`fI iksmq nwl pUrw gurU iml imldw hY [ gurU dI srn ipAW koeI du`K poh nhIN skdw [ (ijs mnu`K dy ihrdy ivc) gurU dw Sbd (v`s pey aus dy AMdroN) koeI mnu`K (Awqmk jIvn dy aujwry ƒ) imtw nhIN skdw [ hy BweI! gurU nwnk aus prmwqmw dw rUp hY [4[7[9[ *******************************************************

[/FONT]I am no one to explain the meanings of Gubani, however as per that is available with me is the commentary of Dr. Sahib Singh ji.

I am psoting the relevant shabad and the lines that are being discussed are included in it.The lines in shabad and the meaning are colored in blue.

I am tempted to write this post as the post on 'Guru Nanak is the Guru and the lord' is equally affected by this post.

WE can rely upon Sahib singh ji's commentary as it is the only Teeka available on net and makes things easier so far as quoting from it is concerned.

I am inclined to be corrected if there is some flaw in the above.

It is the stated position Of Guru's as per the Basics of Sikhi.

Bhul Chuk Mauf
 

Sardara123

SPNer
Jan 9, 2008
400
7
ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਅਨਿ ਜੇ ਦੇਵੈ ਦੇਵਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
gur kirapaa thae paaeean jae dhaevai dhaevanehaar ||
By Guru's Grace, they are obtained, if the Great Giver gives them.


If There Is Guru Kirpa, Only then the truth can be realized. Kaur-1 Ji.

This is so obvios from this thread, whatever one says about the 'Concept of ONE' te opposition party is seriosly engrossed in making a joke of Gurbani.

The reason behind can be many factors:

Theybelong to some anti-sikh propaganda group.

They dont know anything.

They are here to just have some fun.

Some people derive pleasure by irritating others, but here they dont even know what they doing.

God sent Nindaks just for all of us to learn more and strenthen our belief. Us here refers to all who believe in every word of Guru Granth sahib Ji.

Or some other reason:wah:


Waheguru Bhalaa Karei

DaanVeer Ji,

Gurbani tells us that whenever anybody will say the Word of God loudly, it is going to hurt the non believers(manmukhs), and they will oppose. The inner koor cant let them hear(believe) Gurbani, Naam, GurShabad.
Live Example here.

As you say, this happens to strenghthen our belief. I take it as a medicine/tonic/therapy. I read through it every once in a while. Boot Camp Experience:).

I think this thread is a very good read.

May God Bless all.
Let us pray for Sarbat Da Bhalaa
 
Jan 15, 2008
282
5
Kansas & Haiti
I am new to Sikhi. All I do at this point is meditate in the morning, try to remember the Name of God in all I do, and read SGGS every day, along with some books on the lives of the Gurus and history of Sikhi. So, please forgive me if I am off base here but this is the way I understand these references to God, Guru in the SGGS so far:

There are references to God the Creator as in Ek Ong Kar, then there are references to Guru Nanak. There are also references to a Guru that are similar to what I think of as the Holy Spirit. Now, I am coming from Christianity so there will be some comparisons. That is for no reason other than to explain. This Guru seems to be refered to as sort of an understanding that God blesses one with. It is not God exactly but is part of God and seems to be a sort of guide and helper towards understanding God. Almost like my voice... it is not me exactly but is part of me and I can use it to help you understand me and guide you. Kind of like that.

They are part of one, and Guru is definitely part of God but Guru is not God entirely. And the Earthly human teachers, our Gurus were sent by God as his representatives and helpers...

Again, forgive me if I am wrong but this is the way I understand it. And it does seem to me that it might be difficult for us to understand because humans seem to want to worship humans. But I think its important to remember that the guiding principal of Guru Nanak was Ek Ong Kar -- there is only One God.

Respectfully,

Caroline
 

svea00

SPN Sewadaar
SPNer
Feb 3, 2008
51
0
Sat sri akal Caroline ji!
You might know the sukhmani, if not read it, it´s beautiful.
On this topic I´d like to add the 8. ashtapadee. But as it´s too long to copy and paste all of ot I sized it down. I hope you don´t mind.

salok. Shalok:
man saachaa mukh saachaa so-ay. The True One is on his mind, and the True One is upon his lips.
avar na paykhai aykas bin ko-ay. He sees only the One.
naanak ih lachhan barahm gi-aanee ho-ay. ||1|| O Nanak, these are the qualities of the God-conscious being. ||1|

naanak barahm gi-aanee aap parmaysur. ||6|| O Nanak, the God-conscious being is Himself the Supreme Lord God. ||6||

barahm gi-aanee kee keemat naahi. The God-conscious being cannot be appraised.
barahm gi-aanee kai sagal man maahi. The God-conscious being has all within his mind.
barahm gi-aanee kaa ka-un jaanai bhayd. Who can know the mystery of the God-conscious being?
barahm gi-aanee ka-o sadaa adays. Forever bow to the God-conscious being.
barahm gi-aanee kaa kathi-aa na jaa-ay aDhaakh-yar. The God-conscious being cannot be described in words.
barahm gi-aanee sarab kaa thaakur. The God-conscious being is the Lord and Master of all.
barahm gi-aanee kee mit ka-un bakhaanai. Who can describe the limits of the God-conscious being?
barahm gi-aanee kee gat barahm gi-aanee jaanai. Only the God-conscious being can know the state of the God-conscious being.
barahm gi-aanee kaa ant na paar. The God-conscious being has no end or limitation.
naanak barahm gi-aanee ka-o sadaa namaskaar. ||7|| O Nanak, to the God-conscious being, bow forever in reverence. ||7||

barahm gi-aanee sabh sarisat kaa kartaa. The God-conscious being is the Creator of all the world.
barahm gi-aanee sad jeevai nahee martaa. The God-conscious being lives forever, and does not die.
barahm gi-aanee mukat jugat jee-a kaa daataa. The God-conscious being is the Giver of the way of liberation of the soul.
barahm gi-aanee pooran purakh biDhaataa. The God-conscious being is the Perfect Supreme Being, who orchestrates all.
barahm gi-aanee anaath kaa naath. The God-conscious being is the helper of the helpless.
barahm gi-aanee kaa sabh oopar haath. The God-conscious being extends his hand to all.
barahm gi-aanee kaa sagal akaar. The God-conscious being owns the entire creation.
barahm gi-aanee aap nirankaar. The God-conscious being is himself the Formless Lord.
barahm gi-aanee kee sobhaa barahm gi-aanee banee. The glory of the God-conscious being belongs to the God-conscious being alone.
naanak barahm gi-aanee sarab kaa Dhanee. ||8||8|| O Nanak, the God-conscious being is the Lord of all. ||8||8||

salok. Shalok:
ur Dhaarai jo antar naam. One who enshrines the Naam within the heart,
sarab mai paykhai bhagvaan. who sees the Lord God in all,
nimakh nimakh thaakur namaskaarai. who, each and every moment, bows in reverence to the Lord Master
naanak oh apras sagal nistaarai. ||1|| - O Nanak, such a one is the true 'touch-nothing Saint', who emancipates everyone. ||1||
 

Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
Writer
SPNer
Jul 14, 2007
4,576
1,609
Here's another reference on God-conscious:-
Page 1373, Line 17
ਕਬੀਰ ਮਨੁ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਭਇਆ ਪਾਇਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥
कबीर मनु सीतलु भइआ पाइआ ब्रहम गिआनु ॥
Kabīr man sīṯal bẖa­i­ā pā­i­ā barahm gi­ān.
Kabeer, my mind is cooled and soothed; I have become God-conscious.
Devotee Kabir - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
 
Last edited by a moderator:

AmbarDhara

SPNer
Jan 9, 2008
271
6
I am new to Sikhi. All I do at this point is meditate in the morning, try to remember the Name of God in all I do, and read SGGS every day, along with some books on the lives of the Gurus and history of Sikhi. So, please forgive me if I am off base here but this is the way I understand these references to God, Guru in the SGGS so far:

There are references to God the Creator as in Ek Ong Kar, then there are references to Guru Nanak. There are also references to a Guru that are similar to what I think of as the Holy Spirit. Now, I am coming from Christianity so there will be some comparisons. That is for no reason other than to explain. This Guru seems to be refered to as sort of an understanding that God blesses one with. It is not God exactly but is part of God and seems to be a sort of guide and helper towards understanding God. Almost like my voice... it is not me exactly but is part of me and I can use it to help you understand me and guide you. Kind of like that.

They are part of one, and Guru is definitely part of God but Guru is not God entirely. And the Earthly human teachers, our Gurus were sent by God as his representatives and helpers...

Again, forgive me if I am wrong but this is the way I understand it. And it does seem to me that it might be difficult for us to understand because humans seem to want to worship humans. But I think its important to remember that the guiding principal of Guru Nanak was Ek Ong Kar -- there is only One God.

Respectfully,

Caroline

Caroline Ji,

People have made several thousand defintions of Sikh Religion. We are not talking about scholarly evaluations of some type. We are talking Guru's Word.

This is Gurmat Section. And I suppose we should talk about Gurmat(SGGS Ji) here.

In Guru Granth Sahib Ji, there are hundreds of references where it is told the there is no difference what so ever. There is no SECOND. Svea Ji gave such a beautiful reference post # 286.
Guru and God and a saint/brahmgyani/God realized cant be distinguished. Distinguishing them (calling them two seperate entities) is practicing DUALITY.

A very simple one in Assa Di Vaar:

Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar
Waho Waho Bani Nirankaar Hai Tis Jevad Avar Na Koi
ANG 474
SGGS JI
SATGURU PRASAAD

ਵਸਤੂ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਵਸਤੁ ਸਮਾਵੈ ਦੂਜੀ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਾਸਿ ॥
vasathoo andhar vasath samaavai dhoojee hovai paas ||
One thing can be absorbed into another thing, but duality keeps them apart.

Gurbani eis jag meh chaanan
Gurbani har alakh lakhiayaa
Gurbani Gavo Bhaee
charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o

In this entire thread there had been several times references had been mensioned about this Truth.

You can believe wahtever you want to, but Gurmat says very clearly:

There cant be any distinction.
 
Apr 4, 2007
934
29
There are references to God the Creator as in Ek Ong Kar, then there are references to Guru Nanak. There are also references to a Guru that are similar to what I think of as the Holy Spirit. Now, I am coming from Christianity so there will be some comparisons. That is for no reason other than to explain. This Guru seems to be refered to as sort of an understanding that God blesses one with. It is not God exactly but is part of God and seems to be a sort of guide and helper towards understanding God. Almost like my voice... it is not me exactly but is part of me and I can use it to help you understand me and guide you. Kind of like that.

They are part of one, and Guru is definitely part of God but Guru is not God entirely. And the Earthly human teachers, our Gurus were sent by God as his representatives and helpers...

Again, forgive me if I am wrong but this is the way I understand it. And it does seem to me that it might be difficult for us to understand because humans seem to want to worship humans. But I think its important to remember that the guiding principal of Guru Nanak was Ek Ong Kar -- there is only One God.

Respectfully,

Caroline

the closest analogy i can think of to christianity is the following verse:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1


compare to sikhi:

Baani Guru Guru hai baani vich Bani amrit saare: Bani is Guru (God) and Guru is Bani; within the whole of the Bani, Amrit (nectar) is present (sggs 982).

and

Gur Parmesur eko jaan: Guru and God are one and the same (sggs 864).

both faiths agree... the word IS God. in our case, the word is Guru and Guru is God. :)

i hope this isn't too confusing. :D


regarding the holy spirit comparison, i usually think of Jot as comparable to the christian idea of holy spirit. the jot is god's light, inside of every living thing. we can't see it or touch it... but it's there. we just have to access it. :)
 
Jan 15, 2008
282
5
Kansas & Haiti
Thanks Jasleen. That makes sense. But when you say "Guru" and God are one, are you talking about Guru Nanak, the man, or what the SGGS calls just plain Guru? One of the first questions I asked in this forum was if Sikhs worship the Gurus, as in the Nanaks. The answer was a resounding, "no" Sikhs do not worship Gurus as God because there is only one God and the Gurus were sent by him as messenger.

One thing about this board -- it certainly shows the philosophical differences within Sikhi.

Guess that's true of all faiths.

Again, I mean no disrespect. And thanks for the explanation.
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 24, 2006
2,921
1,657
Thanks Jasleen. That makes sense. But when you say "Guru" and God are one, are you talking about Guru Nanak, the man, or what the SGGS calls just plain Guru? One of the first questions I asked in this forum was if Sikhs worship the Gurus, as in the Nanaks. The answer was a resounding, "no" Sikhs do not worship Gurus as God because there is only one God and the Gurus were sent by him as messenger.

One thing about this board -- it certainly shows the philosophical differences within Sikhi.

Guess that's true of all faiths.

Again, I mean no disrespect. And thanks for the explanation.
People who say Guru is God don't know how a metaphor works.:(
 

svea00

SPN Sewadaar
SPNer
Feb 3, 2008
51
0
I´ve just read an interesting article that I found linked on the SPN. Sadly, I don´t remember the thread nor the person.
It is a fine essay of Ek Ongkar Kaur who translated the Japji Sahib into English, on the difficulties there are in translating the Gurmukhi textes into English as there often are no right words or simple expressions in English for one Gurmukhi word.
I particularly liked the Mool Mantar translation/explanation of hers. It made me understand a bit better and gave me answers to a previous posted question.
---
"Ek Ong Kaar" One Spirit Beyond,Moves within the Creation -Coordinating, Consolidating, Continually, Creating
To keep the Creator separate from the Creation is not the way of Guru Nanak.
To see them in a joyful play, intermingling, evolving, finding new expressions of Itself – that is his gift to us. “God” is not out there somewhere – pulling strings or watching in judgment. The Divine dwells inside every molecule as a Living Force, constantly expressing myriads of forms, though all forms are ultimately unified in the One.... It is One – Ek. Is has vibration, sound – Ong – and from sound, from vibration it express itself in form – Kaar. But the Oneness and the sound and the form are merged in every moment, in every thing – continually playing together. A current runs through the entire Creation. And like children playing with paints, Ek Ong Kaar never creates the same picture twice.

"Sat Naam" And this Spirit Within me is my True Identity.
If I can accept what Ek Ong Kaar means – then I must also accept the Presence of the Divine within myself....Guru Nanak tells us – it is that Divine Presence within us that is our real identity. Our real name. Our real existence.... But beyond these definitions, these stored memories, opinions and tastes of a lifetime – there is a Presence, a Life, a Spirit that will keep going. This Presence is part and parcel of the play of Ek Ong Kaar. And that is my True Identity. Sat Naam.

"Kartaa Purakh" It Does All And Causes All To be Done. It Protects me Through all incidents Of Time and Space.
Our mind tells us that, “I am the doer. I am the one who is acting. I am the creator. I am the manipulator. I am the one who can move things and create my life as I want to. I am.” The moment the mind hears that it is NOT the doer, it protests, creates doubts, arguments, becomes defensive and storms around. The mind can become competitive with Divinity, and try toprove that it IS the doer, it IS the protector – and nothing is greater than itself. We call this ego – and there’s a purpose for it. Because the intricate truth is that the Divine dwells in you, as well as in everything, so you are part of that Creative Power, and part of that Protective energy. You are not the entirety of it. But in your Spirit, you are part of it. The misunderstanding comes because of the mind. The purpose of the mind is to serve the soul. It is created to apply its intelligence to carry out the commands of Spirit. When a human being flows with the experience of her own Spirit and the mind serving that – then it is easy to understand Kartaa Purakh. ....

"Nirbhau - Nirvair"
When I have seen these truths of Ek Ong Kaar, Sat Naam, Kartaa Purakh – then how can I ever feel afraid again? How can I ever be angry? Fear and anger come from ego – from my limited perception needing to protect my own security and identity. But if the Divine has blessed me to understand this Force that runs through all, that runs through me and that Does everything – then whatever I experience is the Divine... Anger and fear cannot coexist with love. To fight and see the Divine in the enemy – to know the duty and yet to keep compassion in one’s heart – this is the way of the Sikh. Where fear and anger are – the Guru’s words are not. Where the Guru’s words are, fear and anger have no ground in which to grow....

"Akaal Moorat" Deathless It comes into form.
Moving beyond fear and anger, a perception, an awareness opens up within ourselves. And suddenly we can touch that Deathless Spirit inside. Our projection as a human begins to channel that Light. And we become the Image of the Undying while on the earth.... It is something that begins to blossom when we move beyond fear and anger. Because when we begin to live beyond fear and anger, and feel our power from the deepest, most true, most genuine love inside of ourselves – then the fact that we are Deathless begins to make itself known to our conscious mind. In that awareness, we can represent Deathless Divinity in our every day life. Through our words, through our actions, through our dress, through our every interaction. ...

"Ajoonee" In Itself, It has never been born.
Deathless in Form. Never been born. Though the mind has no capacity to logically map it, our Spirit has always existed and will continue to exist always. No death. No birth. No beginning. No end. Just one big play, one continuous learning – shifting from form to form through time and space. Feeling the reality of the Deathless Spirit inside, and understanding that there was never a beginning to us anyway– the mind can penetrate through the fog of time and surrender its finite ego to something far bigger.

"Saibhang" Flowing through the cycles of Birth and Death, It Moves By Its Own Purity and Projection.
Life needs definition to fulfill itself. And for most of us – the mind gives us our definition. We are “lawyers,” “engineers,” “lovers,” “ministers,” “writers,” “rebels,” – words, pictures, images that direct how we use our breath, our voice, our creativity to form our own lives. Guru Nanak gives us a different definition. Saibhang. It’s a definition that applies to the soul, to the spirit. And in that definition, our own inner purity flows through time and space, calling one experience after another forward until we can consciously merge back in Union with Ek Ong Kaar. With the Source. With the One. Completion. This definition applies once we understand that we are Deathless in Form, Never Been Born. ...Rather than looking to create a finite identity and security for ourselves, Saibhang asks us to see our life in the context of a much larger journey. And to keep flowing forward, to complete who we are, so that the mind can consciously merge into the Limitless of Self and allow that inner Divinity to complete the journey.

"Gur Prasaad" This understanding Shall come to you As a sweet blessing, As a gift, Through the Guru.
We need a teacher. We need a guide. Only an idiot believes that his or her mind can figure everything out on its own. .... It is the proof of God in a world that questions the existence of the Divine that so many teachers have come to give us a path home. For the Sikh, that Teacher is the Shabad, the Divinely-given Word of the Guru. And by meditating on that Sound Current of the Shabad, It trains the mind into the reality of all that the Mool Mantra has described. So we seek that blessing, that gift that comes through the Guru. ....
---
I´m sorry that it´s so long, I even shortened it a bit, hope you don´t mind. Maybe someone recognizes it again and sends the links.

I know, that this explanation is hers and may be far away from the traditional one, but I believe as long I (or we) don´t have our own inner concept of it, we have to take what there is. I was greatful and a bit astonished (coming also from a christian background) as the sikhs at my local Gurdwara explainded to me, that there is no universal translation or explanation to the SGGS, everyone can find and experience his/her own. Thank you for this, Waheguru!
 
Jan 15, 2008
282
5
Kansas & Haiti
Guru and God and a saint/brahmgyani/God realized cant be distinguished. Distinguishing them (calling them two seperate entities) is practicing DUALITY.


Dear AmbarDhara ji,

As I said, I am new and just reading the SGGS. Even so I have already come across many many references to God by Guru Nanak. He constantly talks of how he is nothing and powerless compared to God. As in the passage where he says, "No power to speak, no power to keep silent. No power to beg, no power to give. No power to live, no power to die. No power to rule, with wealth and occult mental powers. No power to gain intuitive understanding, spiritual wisdom and meditation. No power to find the way to escape from the world. He alone has the Power in His Hands. He watches over all. O Nanak, no one is high or low." (pardon the english version)

The author (Guru Nanak, correct?) says that he alone has no pwer to even begin to understand God and only God has that power. This is a clear distinction between himself and God. So, forgive me for saying so, but if I were to use your reasoning as I read the SGGS, wouldn't I have to conclude that Guru Nanak is "practicing duality?"

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not suggesting that Guru Nanak dev ji practiced duality. I fall deeper and deeper in love with his writings every day! I am testing your reasoning against the writings of Guru Nanak.

You said that SGGS makes it clear that there is to be no distinction, and yet Guru Nanak clearly makes the distinction himself, over and over again -- and quite passionately at that.

So how would you justify this contradiction?

Respectfully,

caroline
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Humbly I ask you forgive my intrusion into this conversation, Caroline ji.

The duality is there until God's grants His blessing and His Naam is enshrined in the heart. Then the duality ends. We are powerless to do this for ourselves.

Naanak is reflecting on the human condition condition -- speaking for us in the shabad.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
No he is speaking for himself as well. He too is powerless without the kirpa of Waheguru.

But in the poetic form he is "giving voice" to the helplessness of the rest of us. Showing us in verse what our own predicaments are. Maybe "speaking out for us."
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
Svea00

These were some of the wonderful things to read in your recent post. Last night I attended a concert by Snatam Kaur. There were two times last evening when these ideas were resoundingly real for me, and for many others in the audience.

" "Ek Ong Kaar" One Spirit Beyond,Moves within the Creation -Coordinating, Consolidating, Continually, Creating
To keep the Creator separate from the Creation is not the way of Guru Nanak.
To see them in a joyful play, intermingling, evolving, finding new expressions of Itself – that is his gift to us. “God” is not out there somewhere – pulling strings or watching in judgment. The Divine dwells inside every molecule as a Living Force, constantly expressing myriads of forms, though all forms are ultimately unified in the One.... It is One – Ek. Is has vibration, sound – Ong – and from sound, from vibration it express itself in form – Kaar. But the Oneness and the sound and the form are merged in every moment, in every thing – continually playing together. A current runs through the entire Creation. And like children playing with paints, Ek Ong Kaar never creates the same picture twice.

"Sat Naam" And this Spirit Within me is my True Identity.
If I can accept what Ek Ong Kaar means – then I must also accept the Presence of the Divine within myself....Guru Nanak tells us – it is that Divine Presence within us that is our real identity. Our real name. Our real existence.... But beyond these definitions, these stored memories, opinions and tastes of a lifetime – there is a Presence, a Life, a Spirit that will keep going. This Presence is part and parcel of the play of Ek Ong Kaar. And that is my True Identity. Sat Naam."

Snatam Kaur led a prolonged period of simran using the mantra Sat Nam Sat Nam Sat Nam ji, Waheguru, Waheguru, Waheguru ji. I do not know how long it lasted, but over time the sound deepened and thickened until all there was but the sound and mind captured by rolling sensations of the mantra.

Another mantra was Sat Naryan Hari Naryan Sat Nam. This mantra lifted the audience higher and higher. When it was over, suddenly there was silence. And we slipped into the silence. Again I do not know for how long.

The Oneness is there.

 

AmbarDhara

SPNer
Jan 9, 2008
271
6
Caroline Ji,

Humility is very impotant in Gurmat.

To kill The Iness(sense of seperateness) humility is needed to be practiced. Oneness cant be realized, untill nothingness is practiced.

Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar
Waho Waho Bani Nirankaar Hai Tis Jevad Avar Na Koi
ANG 474
SGGS JI
SATGURU PRASAAD


ਵਸਤੂ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਵਸਤੁ ਸਮਾਵੈ ਦੂਜੀ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਾਸਿ ॥
vasathoo andhar vasath samaavai dhoojee hovai paas ||
One thing can be absorbed into another thing, but duality keeps them apart.


Gurbani eis jag meh chaanan
Gurbani har alakh lakhiayaa
Gurbani Gavo Bhaee
charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o


Sense of duality is the cause of seperateness. Over and Over again Guru Ji guide us in multiple ways to become like nothing, the lowly, meek.
You must have heard that Guruji wants us to give Him our heads- that's what it is.
 
Last edited:
Apr 4, 2007
934
29
Humbly I ask you forgive my intrusion into this conversation, Caroline ji.

The duality is there until God's grants His blessing and His Naam is enshrined in the heart. Then the duality ends. We are powerless to do this for ourselves.

Naanak is reflecting on the human condition condition -- speaking for us in the shabad.

i agree... another example would be when Guru ji describes himself as the "lowest of the low". now obviously we don't think of Guru as the lowest of the low... but he's showing us that no matter how low we are (or we feel we are), we can still experience God.
 
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