Arts/Society I Don't Shave

[gurtej khubbar]

None of the other 9 gurus, or bhagats wore 5 K's, so why so much importance?

10th guru commands for at time when society was in dark ages, with time and rationalisation we have evolved into a better society. Agree there are still bad elements and its no way perfect.

All I am saying is that to be a good person, living honestly and eradicate my internal enemies has nothing to do with 5 k's. I hope you agree that there are a lot of non Sikhs out there doing great deeds. My pixel point was more to do this this thinking. On the other hand, we should respect people who carry them and in no way I am against it. The same goes for hijab.

 

[aristotle]

None of the other 9 gurus, or bhagats wore 5 K's, so
why so much importance?
10th guru commands for at time when society was in
dark ages, with time and rationalisation we have
evolved into a better society.

Yeah well, Nairobi attacks showed what a better society we have evolved into.
Given, kirpan was justified in times of war. But what about the other 4 Kakaars?lWhat specific advantage would Kara, Kangha, Kachera or Kesh yield in a time of war or crisis, except that they exposed Sikhs to more hostilities for looking the odd ones out. No wonder Sikhs were always singled out and executed. These arguments lead you nowhere.
That the society has become better is IMO just an aberration. The 5 vikaars have always been tormenting Man, and they'll continue to do so. Utopia never comes.
That the bhagats or previous Gurus did not supposedly carry Kakaars may be true. In Sikhi, we do not 'emulate the Prophet'(if you know what I mean), we do as the Gurus ordained us to do. The fact that Guru Gobind Singh Sahib himself established the way of the five Kakaars leaves no questions. However, whether to follow the Guru or not is to a person's own discretion. You won't be stoned to death for not doing so.

I hope you agree that there
are a lot of non Sikhs out there doing great deeds.

Agreed. The people who wear the 5 Kakaars don't have a monopoly over doing good. Except that when you are Amritdhari, it is no longer a choice, it is a duty. But that doesn't discount significance of the Kakaars in any way. Kakaars are not merely this or that, they are the believer's way of adopting the way of life Gurus meant us to lead.

All I am saying is that to be a good person, living
honestly and eradicate my internal enemies has
nothing to do with 5 k's.

People who do partake the Amrit and wear the 5 Kakaars should not expect a free ticket to heaven or salvation or big blessings of God; none of those things have been promised. Amrit is a personal tryst with your Lord, a personal act of faith. Kakaars are not ancient symbols, and if you don't feel like wearing them, Sikhi does not advocate compelling you to do so. Without that proper state of mind, they are nothing but dead weights.

 

[Harry Haller]

None of the other 9 gurus, or bhagats wore 5 K's, so why so much importance?

We are not Gurus or Bhagats, we are simple folk, we are fallible, we have lusts, we have desires, we have weaknesses. It is not about finding salvation, or the tenth gate, or the 14th hole, it is about existing in harmony with ones surroundings, and accepting your situation with grace and dignity. At the far level, it is about enduring the most awful pain in order to stand up for what one believes in, so how can we emulate this, how can we be like a Guru or a Bhagat? not so much in the name of personal salvation, but because that is what is true and right. Well, in my view the 5 k's help us focus on individual facets that together can bring one into such a state, it is not the wearing of the Kirpan, or even the keeping of the hair in itself that is important, it is the love for the concepts that they stand for, in my opinion.

10th guru commands for at time when society was in dark ages, with time and rationalisation we have evolved into a better society. Agree there are still bad elements and its no way perfect.

As my brother has already pointed out, this is simply not the case, you cannot judge society by how many malls exist, or whether there are western fast food restaurants in abundance......

All I am saying is that to be a good person, living honestly and eradicate my internal enemies has nothing to do with 5 k's. I hope you agree that there are a lot of non Sikhs out there doing great deeds. My pixel point was more to do this this thinking. On the other hand, we should respect people who carry them and in no way I am against it. The same goes for hijab.

I agree with you, I do good deeds, I do not keep the 5 k's, and I try and eradicate my internal enemies, but without the connection you are merely a slave to whatever you wish to be a slave to, be it helping people, or helping yourself, you are a policeman without a warrant card, a fireman without a fire engine, a Sikh without the K's, you see the argument works incredibly well, if you reject the 5 K's and go it alone, what could possibly be the reason for that rejection, ego? pride? a desire to take a working proven system at finding peace and contentment, and reject it in favor of something self manufactured!

There are many reasons why one would not wish to embrace the 5 K's, an inability for the self to reconcile is mine, yours, an attempt to change history and interpret history to your own ends, some might say, is the last refuge of the damned.

 

[Babandeep Singh]

I find it amusing as well as disturbing that how this argument of redundancy of Kakars is being increasingly used by so many Punjabi Sikh families including some of my relatives.

The point they usually raise is how can somebody who simply keeps hair be a better person than one who doesn't!!! (I'd really appreciate if one of the SPNers could suggest a terse reply for such relatives...you know something I should utter so that the argument ends then and there!!! :angryyoungsingh: I like to keep the argument short)

And the funniest thing is they try to justify their non-adherence by saying that they have seen many Amritdharis keep their kakars aside as night falls and savour/devour meat and/or alcohol...(shameful indeed).But...

Lemme get this straight, if somebody else couldn't grasp the lessons taught in "Theory of General Relativity" (actually a personal experience ) does that automatically mean the theory is useless/irrelevant or the school or the teacher is faulty? Just because a student failed in exam doesn't mean nobody would pass in the whole wide class!!! The great lengths people go to to justify their stand... (including myself )

IMHO, yes Kakars represent outward devotion (I am not Amritdhari...yet) but when one's inner self is illumed by the Naam, no reason or justification would be enough to stop them from wearing Kakars...It won't be a requirement, burden or duty...It would be fondness, desire as in one to wear a crown everyday...to get ready for a new beginning everyday...at least that's how I fantasize about it 0

 

[Harry Haller]

The point they usually raise is how can somebody who simply keeps hair be a better person than one who doesn't!!! (I'd really appreciate if one of the SPNers could suggest a terse reply for such relatives...you know something I should utter so that the argument ends then and there!!! :angryyoungsingh: I like to keep the argument short)

easy, ask if they have conquered the five thieves, or even one

then ask them how their kakkars help them, you will either get a good reply that will surprise you, or some mumbo jumbo about rituals and worship, with chanting thrown in for good measure.

IMHO, yes Kakars represent outward devotion (I am not Amritdhari...yet) but when one's inner self is illumed by the Naam, no reason or justification would be enough to stop them from wearing Kakars...It won't be a requirement, burden or duty...It would be fondness, desire as in one to wear a crown everyday...to get ready for a new beginning everyday...at least that's how I fantasize about it )

exactly how i see them

 

[LittlePrem]

That's interesting because I once had a GYN tell me not to shave my nether regions because "the hair is there to protect me".

However, I stopped cutting the hair on my head about 1.5-2yrs ago (baby steps) and I've had talks with numerous hairdressers (I get Keratin treatments) about why I wont let them clip off my dead ends or fix my wildly grown out layers. A few months ago I finally gave up and admitted to one pushy hairdresser that it was for religious reasons.

Note: by baby steps, I mean that I am starting with a commitment to keeping my hair. My bangs are hitting my chin, and my hair is growing slowly because the ends keep breaking off. However, I stubbornly refuse to snip.

 

[LittlePrem]

This thread is making me realize how society has shaped me. I have internalized this influence of women removing body hair to the point of hypocracy. On one hand I sit here and wax/shave/pluck/laser off my body hair (an expensive and time consuming nightmare) in fear of what men will think, or even just random humans. On the other, I don't mind if a man is a veritable furball. It's ok for them, but not for me, even though my body hair is just as natural. Hypocracy. Ingrained.

 

[spnadmin]

Babandeep Singh ji

You asked for a terse reply. Maybe this will sink in. Maybe not, because more and more people are becoming very hard-headed about everything.

It all comes down to the Gurus' outer and inner roop. The 5 kakkars will not make one a better person. However, when one made an oath to keep the Gurus' roop, one promised to become a better person. The kakkars are there to keep that promise in mind, to become a slave to the Guru and a slave to the panth.

 

[gurtej khubbar]

Babandeep Singh ji

You asked for a terse reply. Maybe this will sink in. Maybe not, because more and more people are becoming very hard-headed about everything.

It all comes down to the Gurus' outer and inner roop. The 5 kakkars will not make one a better person. However, when one made an oath to keep the Gurus' roop, one promised to become a better person. The kakkars are there to keep that promise in mind, to become a slave to the Guru and a slave to the panth.

When you say people becoming hard headed about everything, I assume you talking about people who don't think 5K will make them a better person. If so, then the same can potentially apply to you who think it will make them a better person.

 

[spnadmin]

When you say people becoming hard headed about everything, I assume you talking about people who don't think 5K will make them a better person. If so, then the same can potentially apply to you who think it will make them a better person.

Actually , jio.... I am thinking of people who won't for a minute just listen. And that is all Babandeep ji was seeking, too. A minute to be heard, and taken seriously. 100 percent agreement can become boring.

 

[Ishna]

Devil's Advocate: I have a miniature schnauzer dog. I live in a reasonably hot climate. He's very fluffy and so we have him clipped every 6-8 weeks. I wonder, am I going against 'nature' by having him shaved? What's the difference between shaving my dog and shaving my- legs?

+10 points if you can read the last part without laughing.

 

[namritanevaeh]

You know I fully support anyone's right to shave or not. I think he or she should do what she or he pleases not for society, but for them self. I have met a woman with quite a hairy chin. I know men with less full beards. If she's ok with it, that's fine. But I have to say if someone doesn't want to show they have hair growing on their chin (& shaves therefore) I also support that. All personal preference...

 

[namritanevaeh]

What is a Mona?

 

[namritanevaeh]

Lol!!

 

[Harry Haller]

Devil's Advocate: I have a miniature schnauzer dog. I live in a reasonably hot climate. He's very fluffy and so we have him clipped every 6-8 weeks. I wonder, am I going against 'nature' by having him shaved? What's the difference between shaving my dog and shaving my- legs?

+10 points if you can read the last part without laughing.

sis

Your dog does not aspire to be khalsa..

 

[Harry Haller]

What is a Mona?

someone who cuts the hair on their head, as opposed to someone who keeps the hair on the head, but shaves elsewhere lol

 

[Ishna]

sis

Your dog does not aspire to be khalsa..

And Khalsa need to keep their hair because it's 'natural', but they can mess with everything else which is 'natural'? It just doesn't stand up.

Khalsa committing to the uniform makes sense, nothing else does really.

Unfortunately the uniform wasn't precisely identified - there is debate as to whether Guruji meant kesh (on your head) or rom (on your body) but there are other threads already about that.

 

[Harry Haller]

sis

I think if you start getting bogged down in the 'natural' argument, it opens up a pandoras box.

I think we can take it as definitive that the tenth master asked that Sikhs keep hair, maybe no one asked why at the time, maybe the hukam was enough, but again, I would say, the only person that needs to worry about adherence to the letter is the person that has conquered all five thieves and spends their days completely in Naam, until then, I guess it is a question, as it is in life, of priorities and personal goals.

 

[gurtej khubbar]

Our bodies are not PERFECT. If it was, we wouldn't have backaches, cancer, diabetes etc. So the natural argument doesn't work anyway.

 

[Ishna]

I'm not advocating the natural argument.

Harry Ji, I do sometimes wonder whether or not kesh is a tool on the way and not the ultimate prize itself. It sounds a little bit like that, as if you're saying we must be perfect in every other way before we can keep kesh. I've heard a similar argument just this Sunday at Gurdwara, someone telling me they don't keep their hair because they're not high enough spiritually and maybe they will be able to in their next life. But you're right, it's about an individuals goals and priorities.