Arts/Society I Don't Shave

[Babandeep Singh]

Ishna ji, imho if we go through that lane, the first time you went against nature was when that dog was brought to a place for which it has not evolved...so now altering body designs is not gonna be that fruitful...Can a black person who emigrated to Norway change his skin colour because now he doesn't need it anymore?

As for Gurtej Ji, Almost all people (of the 7 billion) are "naturally" "blessed" with hair during birth but not everybody (not even an iota of percentage) is "blessed" with a cancer or an ache...Hair is normal while cancer is not...that's why I don't go running to my doctor that "Oh no! There are these numerous black strands coming all over my skin through these weird pores!"...the last time I checked keeping hair didn't kill anybody (even cutting it didn't) but keeping cancer did!!!

 

[japjisahib04]

Moreover, ' ਭੁਲਣ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਅਭੁਲੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥ SGGS.61. Our body is perfect from all angles. It is due to malnutrition or our ignorance that we catch cancer, diabetics or other deseases. God wants us to live happily.

best regards
sahni

 

[japjisahib04]

Moreover, ' ਭੁਲਣ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਅਭੁਲੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥ Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.61. Our body is perfect from all angles. It is due to malnutrition or our ignorance that we catch cancer, diabetics or other deseases. God wants us to live happily.

best regards
sahni

 

[gurtej khubbar]

Moreover, ' ਭੁਲਣ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਅਭੁਲੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥ Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.61. Our body is perfect from all angles. It is due to malnutrition or our ignorance that we catch cancer, diabetics or other deseases. God wants us to live happily.

best regards
sahni

What about babies born with defects? Child syndrome,
Aids , etc? So in ur opinion we shud leave them as they are and not try to find a cure? As this is what god wished correct?

I mean see, we are even born with nails for god sake and then u will put the argument that they are dead nails or they affect the way we live blah blah. I mean why do u brush teeth everyday as teeth are natural?

All I am saying is that 5 k or not don't effect who u r .. It's the inner self... Like I said none or the gurus except tenth master wore 5k's and some one said that u r not a guru. Exactly this point can work against 5k's correct?

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

What about babies born with defects? Child syndrome,
Aids , etc? So in ur opinion we shud leave them as they are and not try to find a cure? As this is what god wished correct?

I mean see, we are even born with nails for god sake and then u will put the argument that they are dead nails or they affect the way we live blah blah. I mean why do u brush teeth everyday as teeth are natural?

All I am saying is that 5 k or not don't effect who u r .. It's the inner self... Like I said none or the gurus except tenth master wore 5k's and some one said that u r not a guru. Exactly this point can work against 5k's correct?

Ultimately, all reasons for keeping the 5 Ks fall apart, except for one: I do it because I love my Guru.

All others reasons, I believe, although possibly true, are rationalisations.

 

[Ishna]

Ultimately, all reasons for keeping the 5 Ks fall apart, except for one: I do it because I love my Guru.

All others reasons, I believe, although possibly true, are rationalisations.

This ^ :cheerleaders:

 

[gurtej khubbar]

Ultimately, all reasons for keeping the 5 Ks fall apart, except for one: I do it because I love my Guru.

All others reasons, I believe, although possibly true, are rationalisations.

I assume u wud agree that other people can feel the same without 5k?

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

I assume u wud agree that other people can feel the same without 5k?

Of course I speak only for myself.

 

[japjisahib04]

What about babies born with defects? Child syndrome, Aids , etc? So in ur opinion we should leave them as they are and not try to find a cure? As this is what god wished correct?

I mean see, we are even born with nails for god sake and then u will put the argument that they are dead nails or they affect the way we live blah blah. I mean why do u brush teeth everyday as teeth are natural?

All I am saying is that 5 k or not don't effect who u r .. It's the inner self... Like I said none or the gurus except tenth master wore 5k's and some one said that u r not a guru. Exactly this point can work against 5k's correct?

That is the point. Millions of people run after Nirmal Baba, Sai Baba, Asa Ram and they think Sikhi is just innerself. But guru sahib says, 'ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਏਹੁ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਆਨੰਦੁ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਜਾਣਿਆ ॥੭॥ our chaz achar that represent Shabad in each and every action, and as such our appearence. The bliss that dawn on the individual with the grace of internlization of gurbani is the real one; this experience is what it is; it is to know what bliss is. We think with hair we look ugly and by trimming we become handsome but does not realize if we had chipped nose, {censored}eyed eyes etc, black color then what would have we done, but once gurbani is interanlized these same hairs becomes your beauty. It is just matter of paradigm. ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਏ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਨ ਜਾਣਨੀ ਚਿਤਵਹਿ ਅਨਿਕ ਉਪਾਇ ॥ instead of thanking who donned/fashioned us with hairs, we conspire all sorts of scheme and plans to disfigure it and try to overrule His system and or make correction in His perfection.All these natural calamities, tsunami happens because we play with nature and as gurbani says 'ਜੇ ਜਰਵਾਣਾ ਪਰਹਰੈ ਜਰੁ ਵੇਸ ਕਰੇਦੀ ਆਈਐ ॥ as when we try to conceal our old age but it comes back through different door, sameway once we play with Hukam and try to make correction in his perfection, it comes back with side effect. Hairs are not there without any reason. Thus let us think of, 'ਰਮਈਆ ਕੇ ਗੁਨ ਚੇਤਿ ਪਰਾਨੀ ॥ and stay in His HukamSri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 266.17.

Finally, deformed babies, syndrome, aids are not given by God but are created with our ignorance. Sure once we make mistake we have the right to find cure.

best regards
sahni

 

[gurtej khubbar]

I hope you realize that's its the new born who suffers the most and not the people responsible for it, Doesn't seem to be a great thinking from god correct?
You do realise that natural bacteria that can kill you in instance and not born because of our MISTAKE.

Cutting eyes, nose etc effect greatly the life we live, comparing cutting hair with it seems illogical from a practical prospective. I mentioned practical coz I know you can use faith/belief argument here.

 

[aristotle]

I assume u wud agree that other people can feel the same without 5k?

Gurtej Ji,
I think we have now come a full circle in this discussion. At the same time, what I feel is the question you are constantly raising from the very start cannot be answered in a closed manner.
Why are we solely talking about the Kakaars here? Kakaars are a part of the Amrit vows, the life of an Amritdhari Sikh includes much more than just these Kakaars.

A while ago you talked about the 'big picture'. Let me make the picture even bigger.
Do we need religion to tell us good from bad?
Do we need religion to tell us to donate?
Do we need religion to tell us to help a blind man cross the street?
By this relation, Religion as a whole would be extinct by now.

Away-from-the-ground-arguments can make anything sound redundant and pessimistic.

Kakaars are but a part of the Amrit; and so is truthful living, living by the Hukam and remembrance of the Lord.
Kakaars are non living objects, it is only when the Sikhi concepts are infused into the Kakaar wearing person that he deserves to be called a true Amritdhari.

So one may ask, I wish to follow the Sikhi principles but minus the Kakaars.

What everyone should agree with is there is no absolute right or wrong in matters of perspective. There were righteous people even before Amrit ceremony was devised. There were righteous people even in the Stone ages when Man lived in caves and ate wild honey.

That there are no compulsions in following the path of Sikhi nor are there any flowery after-your-death incentives is what I consider the biggest merits of Sikhi, or partaking the Amrit, or of wearing the Kakaars as part of your Amrit vows.

 

[Harry Haller]

Gurtejji

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkzjBfTDH20

 

[findingmyway]

It is interesting to comeback to this discussion after some time away. I actually think bringing in kesh is doing this topic a disservice. For me, it is about prejudice and how superficial people are. The starter articles are non-Sikhs and see this as much as an issue as Sikhs do.

It is unacceptable to say people are unattractive based on skin colour but yet comments like this are ok?

I am definitely not cool with hairy legs and arm pits. I think it is because of my raising but I think it is gross and feels horrible.

Why is such a harsh judgement considered to be acceptable in today's society? It is because of clever and sustained marketing of the hair removal industries but we are all still too blind to look past the adverts.

 

[spnadmin]

The starter articles were about breaking with societal pressure to look a certain way and to conform to certain ideals or aesthetic standards when nothing of importance to society is at s take. That is truly at the bottom of this discussion findinmyway ji; and I too have been wondering why we have migrated away.

We have to conform to society's norms when the rights and safety of others are at stake. Then compromises are necessary if we truly believe that a common set of standards helps all to be supported and move ahead in their lives. My freedom ends where your liberty begins.

Keeping hair does not fall into that category. How is the liberty of another person placed at risk when any individual or group decides not to "shave? " The question answers itself. The unfairness is communicated by words and actions. This leads to shame, embarrassment and worse in so many instances. The idea that we make compromises to protect the liberties of others is turned on its head. Instead for no good reason other than "cultural preference or taste" individuals are punished.

So to anyone out there who keeps hair, Sikh or not Sikh. Just do it! Illegitimi non carborundum est. http://www.ehow.com/facts_7341732_meaning-non_illigitamus-carborundum.html Ignore them and laugh. Don't waste precious time and emotion when dealing with fools. If there are workplace stigmas or the like, then go to court. Otherwise, be glad you have the courage to be yourself. That, not the hair, is the gift.

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

The starter articles were about breaking with societal pressure to look a certain way and to conform to certain ideals or aesthetic standards when nothing of importance to society is at s take. That is truly at the bottom of this discussion findinmyway ji; and I too have been wondering why we have migrated away.

.

We migrated away because in a Sikh forum, when shaving for any reason is discussed, kesh - which is so very uniquely Sikh - is bound to enter into the picture. We do sometimes get a bit carried away with the topic.

I used to clip our poodle in the usual poodle clip. He loved it and would prance around showing off, very proud of himself. I will admit to feeling just the tiniest bit guilty, but I don't find any hukam about our dogs keeping kesh and I think vanity is not paap-ish in a dog.

On the other hand, the time I shaved our Yorkie was a disaster. Poor thing looked like a medium-sized rat and was horribly embarrassed, walked around with his head down and tail between his legs. Poor thing.

The point being, even my dogs were caught up in the societal pressures to shave or not, each in his own doggy way. This goes way beyond kesh.

My biggest pressure to shave came from my mother's family. They called me dirty and disgraceful. Fortunately, their opinion meant little to me. I never did wear a bikini at the beach...

Ladies, it does get better. At my age, my legs and underarms are seen only by me, my doctor and my caregivers. Two of my Muslim caregivers really don't like my hairiness, but I told them in very clear terms that my hair is not a topic for discussion and to zip up. Their mouths, not my hair.

I am inordinately fond of my bit of beard. I always envied the men who could sagely stroke their beards and now I can do it. Well, sort of.

 

[Harry Haller]

interesting fact, I have noted my wife has hairy legs and armpits and I never even noticed until I had a close look last night whilst she was asleep.

I still stand by the notion that natural hair is no problem at all, although I wonder if those that have no problem with unatural hair growth actually have an attraction to such, as stated by at least one poster on this thread.

Myself, even though I am a mona, I hate shaving and cutting my hair, which means I sport a sort of bearded krusty the klown look as my hair grows, I tend to tidy myself up once every 3 months, and no one has every commented or complained, although this is more an aversion to the razor than for religion.

 

[Randip Singh]

I've changed my mind on this recently.

When the Panj Pyarey were given the 5 Kakars they were given sybols of manliness or male royalty.

These symbols were never meant to bestow manliness onto female's or turn them into she males.

We were given Singh and Kaur for a reason. We are equal, but we are different. We must respect that.

The female Sikh must emphasise their femaninity, and I don't mean the western contruct of this. She must be strong, courageous, etc yet still be able to display her femininity, just as a man should be able to display his manliness.

A bit controversial from me ehh? Bet you didn't expect that :whatzpointsing:

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

I've changed my mind on this recently.

When the Panj Pyarey were given the 5 Kakars they were given sybols of manliness or male royalty.

These symbols were never meant to bestow manliness onto female's or turn them into she males.

We were given Singh and Kaur for a reason. We are equal, but we are different. We must respect that.

The female Sikh must emphasise their femaninity, and I don't mean the western contruct of this. She must be strong, courageous, etc yet still be able to display her femininity, just as a man should be able to display his manliness.

A bit controversial from me ehh? Bet you didn't expect that :whatzpointsing:

Please define this "femininity" that I am supposed to display. I honestly don't know what you mean. I certainly hope you aren't talking about the subservience demanded by the patriarchal Punjabi culture or her job of carrying the family izzat.

Please be specific.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

The female Sikh must emphasise their femaninity, and I don't mean the western contruct of this. She must be strong, courageous, etc yet still be able to display her femininity, just as a man should be able to display his manliness.

A bit controversial from me ehh? Bet you didn't expect that :whatzpointsing:

I am not sure what you are saying here... usually when people use the 'equal but different' statement, it's used to put women into subservience to men. And how you worded it sounds like you believe Panj Pyare should only be men... when in reality it can be any Amritdhari Sikh. (The argument that only men stood to give their heads is irrellevant because the same could be said for castes too... then only those original 5 castes can be Panj... but that is not enforced. Caste and gender differences are supposed to BOTH be irrellevant in the Sikh faith. So therefore, the makeup of the original 5 should not dictate for the rest of time who can act as Panj Pyare. In the Rehet it says only that it must be 5 Amritdhari Sikhs with no disabilities etc.) But I digress, this is for another debate... Only brought up because you intimate that Panj are for manly men...

And in actuality, Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave the 5 K's to ALL Amritdhari Sikhs... not just the Panj Pyare. And he allowed both women and men to take Amrit. The idea was to stand out in a crowd... for that reason I also believe women should wear dastar as well as that is part of the uniform of Khasla.

If you meant that women should be able to be 'feminine' as in shaving, makeup etc.... My take on kesh is that if God didn't want it there, it wouldn't be. So how is removing something that is meant to be there, somehow more feminine? The female body has hair...it's not gross, it's not disgusting and it's not un-feminine. This weird idea of 'feminine' that most people have, is fake. It's something that was created by a razor company in the early 1900's when skirt hemlines were raising, in order to sell more products! Prior to that, women kept their hairs! You can look it up if you want to!

Besides... shaving becoems a useless ritual... it always grows back. It's a neverending pain in the butt to keep having to remove it. Only to have to deal with stubble regrowth that itches... only to have to remove it again, and the cycle continues. You kind of become enslaved to it... this fake ideal of 'feminine'.

 

[linzer]

The female Sikh must emphasise their femaninity, and I don't mean the western contruct of this. She must be strong, courageous, etc yet still be able to display her femininity, just as a man should be able to display his manliness.
A bit controversial from me ehh? Bet you didn't expect that

Randip Ji,
You got some splanin ta do!
What is femininity?
Western women aren't strong and courageous?
There's controversial and then there's sticking your foot in it.
We're waiting