'Naam' - My Understanding

[Ambarsaria]

findingmyway,
It is not true that the ‘instructions’ for meditation ‘are right there.’ The instructions of how to meditate are not to be found in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or any other sacred Sikh text. This is because meditation has only been taught non-verbally by Enlightened Masters including our Sikh Gurus. Usually only one disciple learns to meditate in the lifetime of any Master, and then that disciple is crowned the next Master. In the case of the Sikh Gurus there were occasions where more than one student learned. Bhai Gurdas had learned but was never proclaimed as Guru, and Guru Hargobind was able to teach two of his sons that both became Guru. Baba Siri Chand also learned to meditate but did not learn to meditate on the Naam until he met Guru Ram Das.
The ideal of the Khalsa is that many will learn to meditate on the Naam and it will transform humanity and human society. This has clearly not happened yet. Most Sikhs do not even show interest in learning meditation. Everything short of learning to truly meditate on the Naam is a distraction from the real goal.

jgtkhalsa ji, I excerpt the following from your post in red and my comments follow,

• Most Sikhs do not even show interest in learning meditation.

• Most sikhs if not all sikhs show interest in learning.
  
• Learning meditation is just one part of learning. Others include,
  • Learning to work
  • Learning to share
  • Learning to raise family
  • Learning to fight against injustice
  • Learning martial arts as in sant-sipahi being the image of a sikh
  • and many more, ....
    
• A practical lifestyle of kirat-kamai and vand ke shakna was given equal if not more importance in sikhism
• Sikhism is not yogism
  • As a matter of fact Yogi's with Body modifications like with earings, nose rings, bhibuti (ashes on their body), etc., and claims like the following are called bhatakday (wanderers) with little credibility attached,
    • Special powers
    • Contorted body movements
    • Control of destiny
    • Telling the future
      

• Everything short of learning to truly meditate on the Naam is a distraction from the real goal.
• I am sorry but for sikhs the Gurus have taught and established Sikhism with pretty self challenging and continuously self betterment goals
• Please describe your qualifications to set the single goal that you speak of regarding "meditation on Naam" and ignore even more complete lifestyle goals that sikhs find in Gurus writings and teachings.

As findingmyway stated we can kind of surmize your agenda regarding Kundalini yoga and yogism but perhaps it will fit better under other religions or cults.

A suggestion to the moderators if we want to open a new forum for Yogis and cults, etc.

Sat Sri Akal.


​

 

[BhagatSingh]

findingmyway,
It is not true that the ‘instructions’ for meditation ‘are right there.’ The instructions of how to meditate are not to be found in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or any other sacred Sikh text.

Jgt Khalsa ji, You have given nothing but your wisdom on this thread. But i think your mention of Kundalini Yoga may have distracted other members from it. Lol
Anyways, let's see how their disagreement with you goes on.

I agree with most things you said. One of the things I disagree with is this quoted above.
There are techniques given in SGGS on how to meditate. On page 8:
<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਜਤੁ ਪਾਹਾਰਾ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ ॥
जतु पाहारा धीरजु सुनिआरु ॥
Jaṯ pāhārā ḏẖīraj suni▫ār.
Let self-control be the furnace, and patience the goldsmith.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਅਹਰਣਿ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਦੁ ਹਥੀਆਰੁ ॥
अहरणि मति वेदु हथीआरु ॥
Ahraṇ maṯ veḏ hathī▫ār.
Let understanding be the anvil, and spiritual wisdom the tools.

</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#babac7"><td> ਭਉ ਖਲਾ ਅਗਨਿ ਤਪ ਤਾਉ ॥
भउ खला अगनि तप ताउ ॥
Bẖa▫o kẖalā agan ṯap ṯā▫o.
With the Fear of God as the bellows, fan the flames of tapa, the body's inner heat.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਭਾਂਡਾ ਭਾਉ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਢਾਲਿ ॥
भांडा भाउ अम्रितु तितु ढालि ॥
Bẖāʼndā bẖā▫o amriṯ ṯiṯ dẖāl.
In the crucible of love, melt the Nectar of the Name,

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਘੜੀਐ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੀ ਟਕਸਾਲ ॥
घड़ीऐ सबदु सची टकसाल ॥
Gẖaṛī▫ai sabaḏ sacẖī taksāl.
and mint the True Coin of the Shabad, the Word of God.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਤਿਨ ਕਾਰ ॥
जिन कउ नदरि करमु तिन कार ॥
Jin ka▫o naḏar karam ṯin kār.
Such is the karma of those upon whom He has cast His Glance of Grace.

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥੩੮॥
नानक नदरी नदरि निहाल ॥३८॥
Nānak naḏrī naḏar nihāl. ||38||
O Nanak, the Merciful Lord, by His Grace, uplifts and exalts them. ||38|| </td></tr></tbody></table>
On page 49 Guru Arjan Dev ji says:
ਰਸਨਾ ਸਚਾ ਸਿਮਰੀਐ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
रसना सचा सिमरीऐ मनु तनु निरमलु होइ ॥
Rasnā sacẖā simrī▫ai man ṯan nirmal ho▫e.
With your tongue, repeat the True Name, and your mind and body shall become pure.

From this shabad on page 18, http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=18&L=17&id=775, we find the following:
ਧਾਤੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਫੁਨਿ ਧਾਤੁ ਕਉ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
धातु मिलै फुनि धातु कउ सिफती सिफति समाइ ॥
Ḏẖāṯ milai fun ḏẖāṯ ka▫o sifṯī sifaṯ samā▫e.
As metal merges with metal, those who chant the Praises of the Lord are absorbed into the Praiseworthy Lord.
ਲਾਲੁ ਗੁਲਾਲੁ ਗਹਬਰਾ ਸਚਾ ਰੰਗੁ ਚੜਾਉ ॥
लालु गुलालु गहबरा सचा रंगु चड़ाउ ॥
Lāl gulāl gahbarā sacẖā rang cẖaṛā▫o.
Like the poppies, they are dyed in the deep crimson color of Truthfulness.
ਸਚੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੰਤੋਖੀਆ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਏਕੈ ਭਾਇ ॥੧॥
सचु मिलै संतोखीआ हरि जपि एकै भाइ ॥१॥
Sacẖ milai sanṯokẖī▫ā har jap ekai bẖā▫e. ||1||
Those contented souls who meditate on the Lord with single-minded love, meet the True Lord. ||1||

I could go on actually... there are a wealth of shabads that explain how to meditate but I think i captured the gist of it with these.
Perhaps, kundalini yog is not necessary for a Sikh. I don't advocate for or against it, but that is not the method of meditation prescribed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If there is any yog prescribed in bani, its Bhagati Yog. Guru Arjan Dev ji mentions Raj Yog several times. But there is no mention of Kundalini yog.

 

[findingmyway]

Ang 33

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
sireeraag mehalaa 3 ||

ਕਾਂਇਆ ਸਾਧੈ ਉਰਧ ਤਪੁ ਕਰੈ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਹਉਮੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
kaaneiaa saadhhai ouradhh thap karai vichahu houmai n jaae ||
You may torment your body with extremes of self-discipline, practice intensive meditation and hang upside-down, but your ego will not be eliminated from within.

ਅਧਿਆਤਮ ਕਰਮ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਕਬ ਹੀ ਪਾਇ ॥
adhhiaatham karam jae karae naam n kab hee paae ||
You may perform religious rituals, and still never obtain the Naam.

ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਜੀਵਤੁ ਮਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥੧॥
gur kai sabadh jeevath marai har naam vasai man aae ||1||
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, resists temptation while living in the world, Naam will constantly dwell within that person's mind. ||1||

ਸੁਣਿ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਜੁ ਸਤਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾ ॥
sun man maerae bhaj sathagur saranaa ||
Listen, O my mind: hurry to the Protection of the Guru's Sanctuary.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਛੁਟੀਐ ਬਿਖੁ ਭਵਜਲੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਗੁਰ ਤਰਣਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
gur parasaadhee shhutteeai bikh bhavajal sabadh gur tharanaa ||1|| rehaao ||
By Guru's Grace you shall be saved. Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, you shall cross over the terrifying world-ocean. ||1||Pause||

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਸਭਾ ਧਾਤੁ ਹੈ ਦੂਜਾ ਭਾਉ ਵਿਕਾਰੁ ॥
thrai gun sabhaa dhhaath hai dhoojaa bhaao vikaar ||
Accepting the three qualities of Maya (temptation) is due to its influence. The love of duality is corrupting.

ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਪੜੈ ਬੰਧਨ ਮੋਹ ਬਾਧਾ ਨਹ ਬੂਝੈ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਪਿਆਰਿ ॥
panddith parrai bandhhan moh baadhhaa neh boojhai bikhiaa piaar ||
The Pandits, the religious scholars, read the scriptures, but they are trapped in the bondage of emotional attachment. In love with evil, they do not understand which is the right way.

ਸਤਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਤ੍ਰਿਕੁਟੀ ਛੂਟੈ ਚਉਥੈ ਪਦਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥੨॥
sathagur miliai thrikuttee shhoottai chouthhai padh mukath dhuaar ||2||
Meeting the Guru, the bondage of the three qualities is cut away, and the Door of Liberation is opened. ||2||

ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਚੂਕੈ ਮੋਹੁ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥
gur thae maarag paaeeai chookai mohu gubaar ||
Through the Guru, the Path is found, and the darkness of emotional attachment is dispelled.

ਸਬਦਿ ਮਰੈ ਤਾ ਉਧਰੈ ਪਾਏ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
sabadh marai thaa oudhharai paaeae mokh dhuaar ||
If one connects to the Shabad, then that person escapes from the clutches of maya and opens the door of liberation.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਮਿਲਿ ਰਹੈ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
gur parasaadhee mil rehai sach naam karathaar ||3||
By Guru's Grace, one remains attuned with the True Creator, naam. ||3||

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੂਆ ਅਤਿ ਸਬਲ ਹੈ ਛਡੇ ਨ ਕਿਤੈ ਉਪਾਇ ॥
eihu manooaa ath sabal hai shhaddae n kithai oupaae ||
This mind is very powerful; we cannot escape it without the means of some support (the Guru-SGGSJ).

ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਦੁਖੁ ਲਾਇਦਾ ਬਹੁਤੀ ਦੇਇ ਸਜਾਇ ॥
dhoojai bhaae dhukh laaeidhaa bahuthee dhaee sajaae ||
The love of duality causes people to suffer in pain.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਿ ਲਗੇ ਸੇ ਉਬਰੇ ਹਉਮੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਗਵਾਇ ॥੪॥੧੮॥੫੧॥
naanak naam lagae sae oubarae houmai sabadh gavaae ||4||18||51||
O Nanak, those who are attached to the Naam are saved; through the Shabad, their ego is banished and they connect to the Naam. ||4||18||51||

This shabad makes it clear that more than meditation, connecting with the ShabadGuru is what attaches us to the Naam. Therefore, when put into context meditation is the reading, contemplating and following of Shabad Guru. Those who are attached to rituals or the traditional form of mediation alone can get lost with ego and attachment to those methods.

 

[spnadmin]

Bhagat Singh ji

No one was misled by the reference to kundalini yoga. No one has been that superficial so far.

Problems arise - forgive me for repeating myself - when we are not specific about the meanings we take for words. What was Guru Arjan Dev saying when he spoke "perfect is ..." He was not advocating yoga in the ordinary way that we use the term, a system of meditation and exercise, to attain spiritual, mental and physical perfection. Here is what Guru Arjan Dev says. The rhao line is explained by lines that precede it.

ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

gourree mehalaa 5 ||

ਜੋ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਸੋਈ ਸੂਰਾ ॥
jo eis maarae soee sooraa ||
One who kills this is a spiritual hero.

ਜੋ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਸੋਈ ਪੂਰਾ ॥
jo eis maarae soee pooraa ||
One who kills this is perfect.


ਜੋ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
jo eis maarae thisehi vaddiaaee ||
One who kills this obtains glorious greatness.

ਜੋ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਜਾਈ ॥੧॥
jo eis maarae this kaa dhukh jaaee ||1||
One who kills this is freed of suffering. ||1||

ਐਸਾ ਕੋਇ ਜਿ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਗਵਾਵੈ
aisaa koe j dhubidhhaa maar gavaavai ||
How rare is such a person, who kills and casts off duality.

ਇਸਹਿ ਮਾਰਿ ਰਾਜ ਜੋਗੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
eisehi maar raaj jog kamaavai ||1|| rehaao ||
Killing it, he attains Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success. ||1||Pause||

Guru ji is not prescribing any asana here or recommending the practice of Raj Yoga. Guruji is saying that Raj Yoga is a state obtained by preparing the mind to cast off duality and be merged with Naam.

ਜੋ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਭਉ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
jo eis maarae this ko bho naahi ||
One who kills this has no fear.

ਜੋ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਸੁ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਹਿ ॥
jo eis maarae s naam samaahi ||
One who kills this is absorbed in the Naam.

Long shabad, so I have ended it before the conclusion. But Raj Yoga in Guru Granth Sahib is not the practice of "yoga." In losing the self in the love of the shabad, loosing the ego, loosing duality, one moves to the next step - Raj Yoga. Keep in mind that the usage of "yoga" in gurbani is in terms of the core concept of "joining" "union" two English words which have the same root as "jog."

It would be worth it to do a vichaar of this word alone, "jog."

 

[BhagatSingh]

The essence of all yogs is as Guru Arjan Dev ji points out. They use different techniques to get there. Yog is a discipline to reach union with God, which is seeing unity among things/casting off duality. There are different disciplines which have their own techniques to get to that level of psyche, where you don't see distinctions, where you don't see a friend or an enemy. One of the techniques in the Bhagati Discipline is the repitition of Naam.
In other passages, Guru Sahib does advocate for the practice of Raja Yog. When this shabad mentions "attaining Raj Yog". It actually means succeeding in Raj Yog. When we train the mind, we can successfully meditate for long periods of time (even 24/7 or 8 peher aradhna). This is one measure of success in meditation.
And yes, yog is not about asans, rather it is about training the mind, so that it learns to see in a non-dual way. This is another measure of success in meditation.


EDIT: I don't think his mention of kundalini yog misled anyone. Even upon a second reading, I did see a lack of/failure of attempt to understand the other before responding. And it may have been because jgtKahlsa ji mentioned kundalini yog. People see things in a associated manner. Once some one mentions something controversial, our critical eyes are activated at max level and we lose the ability to understand their points.

 

[spnadmin]

EDIT: I don't think his mention of kundalini yog misled anyone. Even upon a second reading, I did see a lack of/failure of attempt to understand the other before responding. And it may have been because jgtKahlsa ji mentioned kundalini yog. People see things in a associated manner. Once some one mentions something controversial, our critical eyes are activated at max level and we lose the ability to understand their points.

Bhagat Singh ji

Thank you for sharing. Please discuss issues, instead of imagined mind states of other forum members.

 

[findingmyway]

In other passages, Guru Sahib does advocate for the practice of Raja Yog. When this shabad mentions "attaining Raj Yog". It actually means succeeding in Raj Yog. When we train the mind, we can successfully meditate for long periods of time (even 24/7 or 8 peher aradhna). This is one measure of success in meditation.
And yes, yog is not about asans, rather it is about training the mind, so that it learns to see in a non-dual way. This is another measure of success in meditation.

As you say Raj Yoga is about controlling the mind to free yourself from maya. The references in Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ could be relating to the concept rather than the actual process. I could only find 2 references in Gurbani, one discussed above. The other is on page 211.
ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Gauree, Fifth Mehl:

ਰਸਨਾ ਜਪੀਐ ਏਕੁ ਨਾਮ ॥ rasanaa japeeai eaek naam ||
ਈਹਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਆਨੰਦੁ ਘਨਾ ਆਗੈ ਜੀਅ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਕਾਮ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
eehaa sukh aanandh ghanaa aagai jeea kai sang kaam ||1|| rehaao ||
With your tongue, chant the Name of the One Lord. In this world, it shall bring you peace, comfort and great joy. ||1||Pause||

Now we know that Waheguru has many names and the whole of Gurbani is describing Waheguru so Naam is more than one word

ਕਟੀਐ ਤੇਰਾ ਅਹੰ ਰੋਗੁ ॥ katteeai thaeraa ahan rog ||
The disease of your ego shall be eradicated.
ਤੂੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਾਜ ਜੋਗੁ ॥੧॥
thoon gur prasaadh kar raaj jog ||1||
By Guru's Grace, you will find peace and connect with Waheguru||1||

ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਨਿ ਚਾਖਿਆ ॥ har ras jin jan chaakhiaa ||
ਤਾ ਕੀ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਲਾਥੀਆ ॥੨॥ thaa kee thrisanaa laathheeaa ||2||
Those who taste the sublime essence of the Lord have their thirst quenched. ||2||

ਹਰਿ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ har bisraam nidhh paaeiaa ||
ਸੋ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਨ ਕਤ ਹੀ ਧਾਇਆ ॥੩॥ so bahur n kath hee dhhaaeiaa ||3||
Those who have found the Lord, the Treasure of peace, shall not go anywhere else again. ||3||

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਗੁਰਿ ਦੀਆ ॥ har har naam jaa ko gur dheeaa ||
ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਭਉ ਗਇਆ ॥੪॥੮॥੧੪੬॥ naanak thaa kaa bho gaeiaa ||4||8||146||Those who have understood Naam from the Guru - O Nanak, their fears are removed. ||4||8||146||

The process of Raj Yoga includes ahimsa (non-violence) and sexual abstinence among other things which are not in line with Gurbani so I think the references to raj yoga refer to the concept rather than the process.

 

[Ambarsaria]

spnadmin ji, findingmyway ji, bhagatsingh ji:

I actually did a little bit of background reading about the author through the URL he wanted spn to respond back with as a favor through linking. There if it is the same author it is called "jagtguroo" versus "jagtkhalsa" on spn.

I studied the content and gist, references on that website basically driven towards yogi bhajan, kundalini yoga, and the following as the thrust,

Spiritual Teachers of our Lifetime


* Eckhart Tolle
* His Holiness the Dalai Lama
* Maha Ghosananda
* Sant Guru Dev Singh
* Vienamese Buddhist Master Thich Nhat Hanh
* Yogi Bhajan
​

Then I went to yogi Bhajan and checked information on kundalini yoga.

The authors posts made little to not much sense from a Sikhism perspective but made perfect sense in reference to above.

I was not mis-led and I made my comments on content as much as I could.

No offence but my assessment is that the poster and Sikhism are kind of on different wavelengths at least from what I can ascertain in this thread.

I do appreciate all of your references and excerpts from Gurbani and I take that as my opportunity to learn forever.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Ambarsaria ji, I thought it did make sense with reference to Gurbani.

It will be interesting discussion indeed. I am hear to learn, as well. There is just so much in 1429 (is it?) pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Just when I think I got it, I learn something new!

 

[spnadmin]

The matter of raj yoga needs a deeper discussion to see how it is related to the thread, particularly in light of the Bhatts references to Guru Arjan Dev, as the essence of Raj Yoga. They were not saying that he was a Raj Yoga master. ਗੁਰ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯੁਚਰੈ ਤੈ ਰਾਜ ਜੋਗ ਰਸੁ ਜਾਣਿਅਉ ॥੭॥
gur arajun kalyaacharai thai raaj jog ras jaaniao ||7|| I will post the shabad next for discussion.


The discussion really needs some focus at this point. Is there insight into contrasts of Vedic practices to gurbani. Here is a provocative comment by a forum member on another thread at this link. By forum member jpshundal:

These seers, especially of Vedanta Philosophy of Hindus have totally confused themselves about the distinction between the Human Mind, which has the Material Base of the Body, and invariably indulges in all types of material sensual pleasures and other impurities, which needs to be Purified, and the Soul, (God’s Ray of Light) which is verily God Himself abiding in the body in His Immanent Form, Who is of Infinite Virtues, All Pure, All Wise, the Source of Life, Creates and Sustains the body, as long He stays in it. God’s Light or Sat Guru in the body remains Aloof or Unaffected (Nirlaip) from the material effects of the body, just as Sun Rays falling on debris of filth remain unpolluted. Absolute God is in Spirit Form, creates the Material Universe, but remains Unaffected from the Material Universe, transcends it, and is called “Niranjana” (Unaffected by Matter or Maya), and so are the Rays of Light shed by Him, which are the Cause of All Creation in the IMMANENT FORM OF GOD. How can Immanent God or Sat Guru Poora in all can be got entangled by the ill effects of the Material things? It is the Mind, which is the sum total of all our feelings, thinking and beliefs, which has the Material Base and is the creation of Soul (Ray of God’s Light, as Perfect as God is), which is polluted with the poisonous material based thoughts. In Sri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji), Soul is called Sat Guru Poora in body as God Himself in Man. It is the Mind which is impure, embodying all the impurities of the material world, which needs to be reflected on Sat Guru Poora in complete love and devotion to get itself purified to become one with God. It is the Mind which is egoistic and creates the separate identity of the organism from God. There is thus the Duality existing in a person, of the selfishness of the Mind embodying all the evils of the material world, and the Divine, Who is All Pure and All Wise. Mind cannot be purified by mortification of the flesh, renunciation of the world and other ascetic practices. In this way we will be dealing with the unending effect of evil of the Mind only, rather increasing more filth in it of its egocentricity of holier than others. The Gurus teach us in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that in this way we are only dealing with Effect of the Material Involvement for their removal, NOT the Unending Cause, which is the Mind within us. We are merely beating the snake hole on its surface, while the serpent remains alive within. (varmi mari sanmp na mar hi, nam na sunhi dora – Rag Asa, M.5, p 381 ). We should reflect our Mind on God in us and attain union with Him, thus remove the Duality existing in us. Mind will be purified like God is, we shall become immune from the impurities of the world. Unless the Two different Entities, Mind and Sat Guru Poora, become One Structure, Duality cannot be removed in Man. It is therefore, Sikhism teaches that No One Can Attain Union with Absulute God, except through Sat Guru Poora, the Infinite God in us. Utter confusion exists in all other religious systems and philosophers about the nature and status of God’s Light pervading everywhere and in all, which is Creative and is in the Form of Immanent God. This Central idea needs to be clearly understood, as Uniqueness of the Sikh Teachings from all other religious systems. This Basic Difference of the Sikh Teachings from all other systems, is the crux of the problem. Our (Sikhs) ignorance to this effect has caused all the confusion that exists in us.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/spiritual-articles/6827-burdens-of-the-soul.html#post82569

 

[BhagatSingh]

Spnadmin ji, I was neither implying that Jasleen ji was ignorant nor quoting single lines of Gurbani. With regards to the latter, I was merely pointing out the references of Raj yog that exist. so that we can look at each one individually, and not ignore them.



Thank you for your clarification, spnadmin

 

[BhagatSingh]

The post implies that another forum member is ignorant of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then goes on to quote single lines of Shabads.

This is BS

Jasleen ji, I do no think you are ignorant of Gurbani. You are a learned person, and you have shown that in other threads.

Spnadmin ji, I only showing how many references of Raja Yoga existed in SGGS. If I was quoting I would not have put them in the smaller font size possible.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Ambarsaria ji, I thought it did make sense with reference to Gurbani.

It will be interesting discussion indeed. I am hear to learn, as well. There is just so much in 1429 (is it?) pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Just when I think I got it, I learn something new!

Bhagatsingh ji, I am jatt sidhra and like to talk to God in peace, dheraj and one on one without witnesses or intermediaries.

Convoluted yoga and undoing kundali's is not my cup of tea.

Our soul and God probably sit in space within six inches above our eyes and may be up to eighteen inches below our eyes (just postulating for myself).

What is so difficult to get to? Perhaps just the expectations of what it is like!

Sikhism gave us the simplest of path to God and it is ours to discover and enjoy.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: No swordfight. Ho{censored}ness in voice is the death rattle of reason in the throat. A saying I have remembered for the longest time.

 

[spnadmin]

By the poet KALL, on Ang 1407/8 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.


ਧ੍ਰੰਮ ਧੀਰੁ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਗਭੀਰੁ ਪਰ ਦੁਖ ਬਿਸਾਰਣੁ ॥
dhhranm dhheer guramath gabheer par dhukh bisaaran ||
The Support of the Dharma, immersed in the deep and profound Teachings of the Guru, the Remover of the pains of others.

ਸਬਦ ਸਾਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਸਮ ਉਦਾਰੁ ਅਹੰਮੇਵ ਨਿਵਾਰਣੁ ॥
sabadh saar har sam oudhaar ahanmaev nivaaran ||
The Shabad is excellent and sublime, kind and generous like the Lord, the Destroyer of egotism.

ਮਹਾ ਦਾਨਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਮਨਿ ਚਾਉ ਨ ਹੁਟੈ ॥
mehaa dhaan sathigur giaan man chaao n huttai ||
The Great Giver, the spiritual wisdom of the True Guru, His mind does not grow weary of its yearning for the Lord.

ਸਤਿਵੰਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਨਵ ਨਿਧਿ ਨ ਨਿਖੁਟੈ ॥
sathivanth har naam manthra nav nidhh n nikhuttai ||
सतिवंतु हरि नामु मंत्रु नव निधि न निखुटै ॥
The Embodiment of Truth, the Mantra of the Lord's Name, the nine treasures are never exhausted.

ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਤਨੁ ਸਰਬ ਮੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਚੰਦੋਆ ਤਾਣਿਅਉ ॥
gur raamadhaas than sarab mai sehaj chandhoaa thaaniao ||
O Son of Guru Raam Daas, You are contained amidst all; the canopy of intuitive wisdom is spread above You.

ਗੁਰ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯੁਚਰੈ ਤੈ ਰਾਜ ਜੋਗ ਰਸੁ ਜਾਣਿਅਉ ॥੭॥
gur arajun kalyaacharai thai raaj jog ras jaaniao ||7||
So speaks KALL the poet: O Guru Arjun, You know the sublime essence of Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success. ||7||

ਭੈ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਮਾਣਿਅਉ ਲਾਖ ਮਹਿ ਅਲਖੁ ਲਖਾਯਉ ॥
bhai nirabho maaniao laakh mehi alakh lakhaayo ||
In the Fear of God, You enjoy the Fearless Lord; among the thousands of beings, You see the Unseen Lord.

ਅਗਮੁ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਗਤਿ ਗਭੀਰੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਪਰਚਾਯਉ ॥
agam agochar gath gabheer sathigur parachaayo ||
Through the True Guru, You have realized the state of the Inaccessible, Unfathomable, Profound Lord.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਚੈ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਰਾਜ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਗੁ ਕਮਾਯਉ ॥
gur parachai paravaan raaj mehi jog kamaayo ||
Meeting with the Guru, You are certified and approved; You practice Yoga in the midst of wealth and power.

ਧੰਨਿ ਧੰਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਧੰਨਿ ਅਭਰ ਸਰ ਸੁਭਰ ਭਰਾਯਉ ॥
dhhann dhhann gur dhhann abhar sar subhar bharaayo ||
Blessed, blessed, blessed is the Guru, who has filled to overflowing the pools which were empty.

ਗੁਰ ਗਮ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣਿ ਅਜਰੁ ਜਰਿਓ ਸਰਿ ਸੰਤੋਖ ਸਮਾਇਯਉ ॥
gur gam pramaan ajar jariou sar santhokh samaaeiyo ||
Reaching up to the certified Guru, You endure the unendurable; You are immersed in the pool of contentment.

ਗੁਰ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯੁਚਰੈ ਤੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਜੋਗੁ ਨਿਜੁ ਪਾਇਯਉ ॥੮॥
gur arajun kalyaacharai thai sehaj jog nij paaeiyo ||8||
So speaks KALL: O Guru Arjun, You have intuitively attained the state of Yoga within Yourself. ||8||

ਅਮਿਉ ਰਸਨਾ ਬਦਨਿ ਬਰ ਦਾਤਿ ਅਲਖ ਅਪਾਰ ਗੁਰ ਸੂਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਨਿਵਾਰ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ॥
amio rasanaa badhan bar dhaath alakh apaar gur soor sabadh houmai nivaaryo ||
Nectar drips from Your tongue, and Your mouth gives Blessings, O Incomprehensible and Infinite Spiritual Hero. O Guru, the Word of Your Shabad eradicates egotism.

ਪੰਚਾਹਰੁ ਨਿਦਲਿਅਉ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਹਜਿ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਸਹਾਰ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ॥
panchaahar nidhaliao sunn sehaj nij ghar sehaaryo ||
You have overpowered the five enticers, and established with intuitive ease the Absolute Lord within Your own being.

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਲਾਗਿ ਜਗ ਉਧਰ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸਾਇਅਉ ॥
har naam laag jag oudhharyo sathigur ridhai basaaeiao ||
Attached to the Lord's Name, the world is saved; enshrine the True Guru within your heart.

ਗੁਰ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯੁਚਰੈ ਤੈ ਜਨਕਹ ਕਲਸੁ ਦੀਪਾਇਅਉ ॥੯॥
gur arajun kalyaacharai thai janakeh kalas dheepaaeiao ||9||
So speaks KALL: O Guru Arjun, You have illliminated the highest pinnacle of wisdom. ||9||

Kall says Guru Arjan Dev, you have illuminated the highest pinnacle of wisdom, at the very end of this passage. Earlier Kall says, Son of Guru Ram Das the canopy of wisdom is spread above your head. Interesting image for it paints a picture of the Guru enshrined within that wisdom of which he himself is the light.

Me neech tells me that Guru Arjan Dev included this particular shabad of Bhat Kall in the Granth Sahib to teach what "yoga" means in shabad guru. Guru Arjan Dev ji practices yoga in the midst of wealth and power. Strange image - he must be always in a state of jog to do this, to practice yoga amidst all the distractions of his life. Kall must not be speaking of asanas, or practices in ashrams. Kall must be speaking of raj yoga as a sublime mental state.

Kall even states that the Shabad is like the Lord, and is compassionate and the destroyer of egotism. And later Kall explains for us what to do. When we are attached to har naam, we save ourselves and the world is saved. Therefore, enshrine the satgur within your heart. That way to raj yoga, as I understand this shabad, is through the ShabadGuru.

 

[spnadmin]

This is BS

Jasleen ji, I do no think you are ignorant of Gurbani. You are a learned person, and you have shown that in other threads.

Spnadmin ji, I only showing how many references of Raja Yoga existed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If I was quoting I would not have put them in the smaller font size possible.

Admin note: The forum rule is to keep a tuk in context of the shabad so that misunderstandings are not propagated.

There was posting while I was formating the shabad from Bhatt Kall on ang 1407/8. Apologies that these are not together with my earlier comment.

So now let's proceed with a vichaar of one of the complete shabads. Some questions to start. What is our understanding of the place of raj yoga in the complete context of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Wny did Guru Arjan Dev ji think this needed to be included? Is the shabad about "yoga?" What is meant by "raj yoga" in the usage of Bhatt Kall ji? How is this shabad connected to the discussion of naam?

 

[BhagatSingh]

With regards to the first question, here is something I found on SPN: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/4303-sikhism-and-yoga.html

 

[Ambarsaria]

Let us call a time out for refresher with a qawalli (babul and mahi are colloquiouly used as God) and see if we can make something out. Everyone will make some sense so if one were to do such for naam where some will understand the deeper meaning while others may not, would we expect similar impact ... ....... just suggestion to pause....... please delete if not appropriate ........



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lI5USRcvRO8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3ZrlkIFJKU&feature=player_detailpage


Sat Sri Akal.

 

[spnadmin]

Ambarsaria ji

LOL You are clever!

 

[Ambarsaria]

Ambarsaria ji

LOL You are clever!

spnadmin ji I try not be clever but I try to remember sakhis (not literally) how Guru Nanak was removing fads, burhms and vehms. I don't want Sikhi to drift towards a pre-Baba Nanak era.

He basically encouraged people to think and find for themselves whether it was,

• Watering his far away plantations from the edge of a river where hindus were sending water to their ancestors
• Whether asking people who complained about the direction of his feet towards Mecca and asked them to move these towards a non-God direction

If I may digress again with another Qawalli again related to Baba Bulley Shah ji and this one is going to be tougher versus the previous piece of cake. I can make sense of it let us see our collective experience,

YouTube - Kalam Buleh shah, Iha Miti Hukum Karay, saraiki

By the way way more learned people have established that "waheguru" is not in Guru Granth Sahib ji so just chanting it is not "Bani Simran". So let us establish typical Naam Simran scenario that I have experienced,

1. Ik Onkar .... GOOD in Guru Granth Sahib Ji
2. Satnam .... GOOD in Guru Granth Sahib Ji
3. Wahegur,waheguru,waheguru.............. .... WHATEVER not in Guru Granth Sahib Ji

If you have experienced some of the "Waheguru Group" simrans, I experienced that the frenzy and head shaking, jhooming comes from where "waheguru, waheguru, ..... takes off.

The Guru Granth Sahib ji Bani words (example 1 and 2 above) are actually very non-violent lacking of agitation and full of sehaj, dheraj, reflection and peaceful.

Just some other points to ponder,

• If people are allowed to watch the video in this post they may notice the tempo and antics very similar to some in frenzied simran (from a Gurbani or Sikhism perspective absolutely not as bad but similar in many ways).
• Another observation is in reference to Sikh Rehat Miryada. The main singer's beard color is I believe what is meant by Singh will not color their beard.

Let us not forget Baba Nanak ji and take sikhi back to pre-Baba Nanak ji.

Let us not forget Guru Gobind Singh ji and take Sikhism back to pre-Guru Gobind Singh ji.

No offence is intended as I find general participants at spn to be very intelligent, respectful and understanding people with views and understanding that may differ from each other.

Hope it adds to the dialog in this thread.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: Apparently the language in the qawalli is Saraiki and a combination of Punjabi and Sindhi. I stand corrected though.

 

[Archived_member10]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Jgtguroo/jgtkhalsa ji I think we need to take a step back and explain a bit on fact.

I have excerpted parts of your post in Red and my comments follow these excerpts.

All making pilgrimages to and worship done at sacred shrines is part of Kundalini Yoga.

• Just saying does not make it so. I had a friend he was Hindu. He said everybody is a Hindu where he defined “Hindu – anybody who believes in anything”

• I have not personally made any pilgrimages in my life for spirituality but mostly for history so do most sikhs. Paying respects to history does not mean a spiritual attachment to a building.

These are spiritual practices that are shared by most if not all religions. Each religion thinking that their places are the most sacred.

• This is near absolute generalization. In our teachings this is called “Hankar”, ego.

What religious shrines have in common is that they are places affiliated with people who knew how to meditate.

• What! This is near absolute generalization. In our teachings this is called “Hankar”, ego.

Kundalini Yoga teaches that the power of the meditations of these Masters was/is so powerful that it affected the electromagnetic field of the Earth at these places, and it is the effects this that pilgrims seek and experience.

• Please name one master and example and verification of this in Sikhism. In Sikhism this will be classified as Chamatkar and all our Gurus wrote and helped people clean their minds of such Hinduism related concepts.

Of course all these efforts fall short of direct experience of the Naam. In order to directly experience the Naam we must learn to meditate for ourselves as the Masters who went before us did.

• Truism if made as an exclusivity. Sikhism encourages this as part of a whole practical life style.

With regard specifically to Sikh shrines and whether or not any who regularly attend them know how to meditate on the Naam, any person that experiences their own existence as Oneness with all creation, experiences the Naam within themselves, will attempt to ensure the equality of all that visit that place.

• Are you stating Sikhism is one of the most restrictive religions in terms of gender equality. I need to know further.

This pertains to all Gurdwaras that do not treat women as equals distributing prashad, reciting Ardas, reading the hukam, etc.

• My mom and my sister did ardass in our house always, I never did. Can you be specific and let me know where it says so in Sikh Gurbani or Sikh Rehat Miryada.
• Practicality of the situation is that men have been historically wage earners in sikh communities. Gurdwaras have jobs like Granthi ji, Ragis, etc., and these have been traditionally done by men.
• One of Granthi ji’s commong responsibility in their job description is Ardas, reading the Hukam.

• One of the key responsibilities of Ragi Singh’s is to provide support to Granthi ji for other aspects of a service including distributing prashad.[/FONT]

Sorry but I see major issues with your post and I have humbly and directly tried to address these. Your post reads too much of a Kudalini Yoga as be all and end all sales pitch.

Sat Sri Akal

Ambarsaria,
The question we are dealing with is:
What is meditation on the Naam.


I refer to Kundalini/Raj Yoga because it is so obvious that many Sikh practices come from it. Reciting bani, performing and listening to kirtan, doing seva, even bowing before the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are all yogic practices included in Kundalini/Raj Yoga for centuries before the time of Guru Nanak.



I do not condemn these practices. I acknowledge that spiritual practices have some benefit. It is better that people do spiritual practices than doing self medication with drugs and alcohol for example. The fact still remains that although there is some benefit in performing spiritual practices, (and all spiritual practice is some form of Kundalini/Raj Yoga) none of them are meditation on the Naam. This means that no Kundalini/Raj Yoga or religious/spiritual practice is meditation on the Naam. Meditation on the Naam is deeper and it is my understanding that this is what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji teaches as well.



The internal process of how we each recognize what is true is meditation. It is an ability that every living being has to some degree because no species can evolve without the development of this trait. It can even be said that the divine purpose of biological evolution is for all life to continually develop the ability to discern what is true. When a species fails to recognize what is true not only does it not evolve it becomes extinct.
Ambarsaria gave the impression in a previous post that living in Amritsar and regularly attending the Harimandar/Golden Temple gives insight about what is true about meditation on the Naam. I disagree by pointing out that because of the obvious unequal treatment of women there it is clear that those that uphold that status quo do not have experience of meditation on the Naam. One who truly meditates on the Naam can not and will not abide the hypocrisy that must be present for women to be treated as inferiors at the holiest of Sikh places.



So either Ambarsaria is correct and there is no inequality of women in the Sikh religion, OR the multitudes of Sikhs that continue to ignore such inequalities demonstrate a basic dishonesty with themselves.


I make this point not to be belligerent but to point out what being honest with ourselves does and does not look like. It is always painful to admit that we do not know all the answers, and that we are part of the problem but it is always the case. We never know all the answers and we are always part of the problem just as we are always part of the Oneness.

How Kundalini Yoga Produces Meditation on the Naam