Professor Sarbjit Singh Dhunda

[Abneet]

your arguments seem to be contradicting, on the one hand Guruji couldn't interfere with God's will, on the other hand, he decapitated people and then brought them back to life, which is it?

It wasn't against God's Will for beheading the Punj Pyare as he was told by Akal Purakh to create the Khalsa Panth. So Guru ji did not mess with His Will.

 

[Abneet]

can you state a documented miracle that has occurred in Sikhism?

Miracle with Guru Harkrishan Ji and Lal Chand. Proof is that Lal Chand became a Sikh afterwards and fought with Guru Gobind Singh Ji.


MUTE RECITES SALOKAS

"Sri Guru Harkrishan Ji was the epitome of sensibility, generosity and courage. There is a famous incident from his early age. Once on the way to Delhi from Punjab he met an arrogant Brahmin Pundit called Lal Chand in Panjokhara town. The Pundit asked him to recite Salokas from the Geeta since his name was similar to that of Lord Krishna. Guru Ji invited a mute person called Chhajju Mehra and placed his stick on his head. He immediately started interpreting salokas from the Geeta. Everybody around was dumbstruck. Lal Chand's arrogance too was shattered and he asked for Guru Ji's forgiveness."

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/gurus/Harkrishan/Guru%20Harkrishan.htm

 

[Harry Haller]

It wasn't against God's Will for beheading the Punj Pyare as he was told by Akal Purakh to create the Khalsa Panth. So Guru ji did not mess with His Will.

is this your opinion or is it documented fact?

 

[Abneet]

is this your opinion or is it documented fact?

Nah I didn't just come up with that fact. I'll have to dig for that reference for you.

 

[Harry Haller]

Miracle with Guru Harkrishan Ji and Lal Chand. Proof is that Lal Chand became a Sikh afterwards and fought with Guru Gobind Singh Ji.


MUTE RECITES SALOKAS

"Sri Guru Harkrishan Ji was the epitome of sensibility, generosity and courage. There is a famous incident from his early age. Once on the way to Delhi from Punjab he met an arrogant Brahmin Pundit called Lal Chand in Panjokhara town. The Pundit asked him to recite Salokas from the Geeta since his name was similar to that of Lord Krishna. Guru Ji invited a mute person called Chhajju Mehra and placed his stick on his head. He immediately started interpreting salokas from the Geeta. Everybody around was dumbstruck. Lal Chand's arrogance too was shattered and he asked for Guru Ji's forgiveness."

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/gurus/Harkrishan/Guru%20Harkrishan.htm

But this site also gives the name of the following Gurus as equal to the known 10 Gurus, namely,

GURU BALAK SINGH

GURU RAM SINGH

GURU HARI SINGH

GURU PARTAP SINGH

GURU JAGJIT SINGH

Who are these people? I have never heard of them, why are you quoting from a site that insults our 10 Gurus by making them appear equal to the above ? How am I supposed to take anything this site states seriously?

 

[Harry Haller]

Nah I didn't just come up with that fact. I'll have to dig for that reference for you.

please do, I want a specific reference that Akal Purakh instructed the tenth master that in order to bring about the Khalsa, he would have to murder people and then bring them back to life, thanks

 

[arshdeep88]

Remember now, Guru Gobind Singh Ji said who wants to give their head.....not who wants this or that. He said it clearly and loudly. The five original punj pyare were specifically unique. He was told by Akal Purakh to establish Khalsa. Now we can doubt our Gurus all we want but they did miracles when it was the time needed. They never abused it or they didn't believe in using miracles for their own good.

just curious to know what if he just wanted to Test the best to see who can have the undying faith in the GURU without actually beheading them?

yes,i have read sakhi of Ram rai bringing back the dead.There are many Sakhis which are unreliable and even if we think this Sakhi to be reliable then in the Sakhi itself it is mentioned how the Guru Ji himself asked Ram rai to never Interfere with the wills and laws of the nature and GOD which concludes how GURUS were opposed to performing miracles.

 

[Abneet]

But this site also gives the name of the following Gurus as equal to the known 10 Gurus, namely,

GURU BALAK SINGH

GURU RAM SINGH

GURU HARI SINGH

GURU PARTAP SINGH

GURU JAGJIT SINGH

Who are these people? I have never heard of them, why are you quoting from a site that insults our 10 Gurus by making them appear equal to the above ? How am I supposed to take anything this site states seriously?

There are many and many sites that refer to the miracle. You don't have to believe it your choice.

 

[Abneet]

just curious to know what if he just wanted to Test the best to see who can have the undying faith in the GURU without actually beheading them?

yes,i have read sakhi of Ram rai bringing back the dead.There are many Sakhis which are unreliable and even if we think this Sakhi to be reliable then in the Sakhi itself it is mentioned how the Guru Ji himself asked Ram rai to never Interfere with the wills and laws of the nature and GOD which concludes how GURUS were opposed to performing miracles.

They were opposed in performing miracles in times of need miracles were used. But in no way should we base our faith in miracles alone we have the GGS.

 

[Harry Haller]

There are many and many sites that refer to the miracle. .

so why did you pick a site that puts Namdhari Gurus on the same level as the the 10 Gurus in Sikhism? are you a Namdhari Sikh? Do you just google things and paste them without actually reading the sites first?

You don't have to believe it your choice.

I am asking you to back up your argument on a public forum with facts, it is nothing to do with choices or even me personally, if you cannot back it up with facts and your only source is 'what you think' that is not enough to make grand and false statements about our religion, the trouble is there are too many people walking around believing that 'what they think' is worthy of parchar.

They were opposed in performing miracles in times of need miracles were used. But in no way should we base our faith in miracles alone we have the GGS.

so how would a Guru make this point? how would a Guru build on this? was not the battle of Chamkaur a 'time of need'? Would not a Guru that wished us to base our faith in the SGGS and not miracles therefore steer clear of such at a time of creating the Khalsa?

 

[Abneet]

so why did you pick a site that puts Namdhari Gurus on the same level as the the 10 Gurus in Sikhism? are you a Namdhari Sikh? Do you just google things and paste them without actually reading the sites first?



I am asking you to back up your argument on a public forum with facts, it is nothing to do with choices or even me personally, if you cannot back it up with facts and your only source is 'what you think' that is not enough to make grand and false statements about our religion, the trouble is there are too many people walking around believing that 'what they think' is worthy of parchar.



so how would a Guru make this point? how would a Guru build on this? was not the battle of Chamkaur a 'time of need'? Would not a Guru that wished us to base our faith in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and not miracles therefore steer clear of such at a time of creating the Khalsa?

lol i didn't fully check the site only the part I was searching for and it had the same part as posted on other sites.

It happened and there are 72 miracles that Ram Rai did. Sorry I can't find the real sources but there are online. But I'm surely you can research enough yourself. It isn't false statements, you surely don't believe in a lot of Sikh history which gets me to ask my self why are you complaining about it in the first place with me? I don't have to prove you, I already know. Most Sikhs know...

Your asking me how Guru would build on this? I really have no idea what the Guru ji was thinking. He did behead the punj pyare. Whats next dhunda followers are gonna ask if amrit sanchar 1699 ever took place lol....

 

[Sherdil]

Here's how I think it went down:

Guru Sahib asked the sangat for a human head. The first person came forward. Guru ji took him inside the tent where he had a bowl of blood collected from a lamb that had been killed jatka style earlier. He dabbed some blood on the sword, then came out again and asked for another head. The next 4 pyaare came forward and Guru ji repeated the same procedure each time. Finally he came out of the tent with the 5 pyaare's heads still attached.

Everyone in the sangat was like "Woah!!! Guru ji just cut off their heads and then brought them back to life. It's a miracle!!". The Mughal spies that were also amongst the sangat must have been equally amazed and terrified.

If Guru ji really could perform miracles in times of need, then I could think of so many situations where his powers would have proved useful.

 

[SaintSoldier1699]

It wasn't against God's Will for beheading the Punj Pyare as he was told by Akal Purakh to create the Khalsa Panth. So Guru ji did not mess with His Will.

All of this is quite complex to keep up with, I thought Mahabharat was complex.

It seems only some understand when or not God allowed exceptions to the rules.

Then again it seems to be the fragile band aid used to temporarily fix the leaks, when you have no real answer to the basic questions asked.

 

[Abneet]

Here's how I think it went down:

Guru Sahib asked the sangat for a human head. The first person came forward. Guru ji took him inside the tent where he had a bowl of blood collected from a lamb that had been killed jatka style earlier. He dabbed some blood on the sword, then came out again and asked for another head. The next 4 pyaare came forward and Guru ji repeated the same procedure each time. Finally he came out of the tent with the 5 pyaare's heads still attached.

Everyone is the sangat was like "Woah!!! Guru ji just cut off their heads and then brought them back to life. It's a miracle!!". The Mughal spies that were also amongst the sangat must have been equally amazed and terrified.

If Guru ji really could perform miracles in times of need, then I could think of so many situations where his powers would have proved useful.

He officially asked for a head though. When he says who wants to give me your head he really meant their life. Amrit is a symbol of immortality for a reason. Why in the world would he use lamb blood no one heard lamb noise or such the night before or someone would had to notice. I have heard the alternative of that story being spread but its just false though.

 

[Abneet]

All of this is quite complex to keep up with, I thought Mahabharat was complex.

It seems only some understand when or not God allowed exceptions to the rules.

Then again it seems to be the fragile band aid used to temporarily fix the leaks, when you have no real answer to the basic questions asked.

It's more complicated than it sounds. Of course I have no idea how it works between them two.

 

[Harry Haller]

i didn't fully check the site only the part I was searching for and it had the same part as posted on other sites.

why is that funny that your beliefs are backed up in such a incompetent way?

It happened and there are 72 miracles that Ram Rai did. Sorry I can't find the real sources but there are online. But I'm surely you can research enough yourself

You want me to research your statements to prove them for you because you cannot find the real sources? sure no problem, do you want me to write your posts for you as well? in fact why not just pm me your password and I can do the lot!

It isn't false statements, you surely don't believe in a lot of Sikh history which gets me to ask my self why are you complaining about it in the first place with me? I don't have to prove you, I already know. Most Sikhs know...

This should set it once for all on all views of Dhunda. Take a look.

http://www.panthic.org/articles/5488

I am responding to a post you made above, that is why, if you do not wish me to complain to you about it, and if you lack the skills to prove what you write, here's a hint, stop writing what you cannot back up.

Your asking me how Guru would build on this? I really have no idea what the Guru ji was thinking.

why not, you seemed to have a divine link to what Akal Purakh was thinking, what has changed?

Whats next dhunda followers are gonna ask if amrit sanchar 1699 ever took place ....

I follow the truth, not a person, you may wish to try it sometime

 

[Abneet]

why is that funny that your beliefs are backed up in such a incompetent way?



You want me to research your statements to prove them for you because you cannot find the real sources? sure no problem, do you want me to write your posts for you as well? in fact why not just pm me your password and I can do the lot!





I am responding to a post you made above, that is why, if you do not wish me to complain to you about it, and if you lack the skills to prove what you write, here's a hint, stop writing what you cannot back up.



why not, you seemed to have a divine link to what Akal Purakh was thinking, what has changed?



I follow the truth, not a person, you may wish to try it sometime

Sorry I don't bookmark real sources though I should in the future. Oh man you would save time please do.

It seems you are arrogant of Sikh history that's what it seems it all goes back to where the proof for this or that when Sikhs already know what false or not.

Divine link?nope, like I said there is a verse that Guru Gobind Singh says he was given to make the Khalsa Panth. If you think that the Khalsa shouldn't be allowed in Sikhi or is out dated don't even bring it up again.

You need to study the truth a little more often. Little English translations won't help you btw.

 

[Harry Haller]

It seems you are arrogant of Sikh history

sorry that doesn't even make sense

If you think that the Khalsa shouldn't be allowed in Sikhi or is out dated don't even bring it up again.

At no point have I said any of the above, are you now putting words in my mouth to suit your own agenda? what makes you say that I think this, can you quote me somewhere or is it just more misinformation?

You need to study the truth a little more often. Little English translations won't help you btw.

can you please explain this, as, again, it makes no sense to me, thank you

 

[Sherdil]

He officially asked for a head though. When he says who wants to give me your head he really meant their life. Amrit is a symbol of immortality for a reason. Why in the world would he use lamb blood no one heard lamb noise or such the night before or someone would had to notice. I have heard the alternative of that story being spread but its just false though.

I'm sure someone did see the lamb being killed. That's how this version of the story came about. But many more people saw the "miracle" that unfolded on stage. The miracle story also sounds cooler, so that's the version people choose to believe.

My theory as to why Guru ji did this include the following points:

1) He wanted to see which Sikhs were truly devoted to him. As Guru Nanak ji states "If you want to play this game of love, come to me with your head on your hand".

2) He wanted to create an aura of divinity. The Mughals claimed that Guru ji was not a real prophet, as he was unable to perform miracles. This miracle business was also brought up in the debate between Basics of Sikhi and the Dawah Man. We all know this is hogwash, but I think this act was done to show the Mughals that he was the real deal.

Separate Issue: The Mughal spies had infiltrated the sangat. Those that remained to witness the "miracle" but did not come forward to receive amrit, revealed themselves as persons of suspicion. It was wise for Guru ji to create a close circle of people whom he could trust, and whose bana would be difficult to emulate.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Without a doubt I do consider Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji our ONE & ONLY GURU. The same time also respect the work, belongings of all our Gurus be it Dasam Granth, Chola of Guru Nanak Sahib, Shastars of our Gurus etc. But this guy Dhunda seems to disrespect Guru's belongings specifically the Dasam Granth.

itsmanmeet ji,

Guru Fateh.

Without a doubt I do consider Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji our ONE & ONLY GURU.

I am glad to hear the above. And, as SGGS is our ONE & ONLY GURU, then other things you wrote contradict this because they are based on hear says, nothing more unlike the SGGS, our ONE & ONLY GURU-your words.

It seems you are trying to row two boats at the same time which is an impossible task. This hop scotching on your part does not fit in the Gurmat ideals.

Regards

Tejwant Singh