What Is God?

[Archived_member15]

What is God?

Honestly, I don't know because I am finite whereas he is infinite, I am knowable whereas he in his Essence is unknowable and outwith human imagination. Nonetheless he fills his creation and is within it by his very being, through his divine energies which penetrate the universe like water soaking into a sponge. He is thus everywhere, all at once and so something of Him can be known through the world of nature which is his book of primary self-revelation. And, in agreement with brother Lucky, I believe God to be in his nature love as the Bible teaches, "Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love...God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them" (1 John 4:18). He does not 'have' love, he does not love, he is not loving - he simply is love in the very depths of his unending Being, one eternal divine act beyond all place and time. And this is the love that, in the words of the poet Dante, "moves the sun and the other stars".

I like this description though, from the Catholic mystic Angelus Silesius:

"...God is an endless force that what it wills attaineth,
That formless, without goal, still as it is remaineth.

Indeed, God only is—can neither live nor love
As you and I and things of earth are spoken of.

The Thought and Deed of Deity
Are of such richness and extent
That It remaineth to Itself
An Undiscovered Continent.

No creature fathometh how deep the Godhead is,
Even the soul of Christ is lost in that Abyss.

Just as unity is in every number, thus God the one
is everwhere in everything.

As fire in flint and trees in seed are always found,
So must you find creation in the Creator bound.

Creation soars in God, by him is motion given.
Since this is so, why ask for further trace of heaven?

Creation is a book. Who wisely reads its lines
Revealed therein completely the great Creator finds.

Love is the wise man's magnet that draweth gold from clod,
That maketh aught from naught, transformeth me to God.

A spark without its fire, a drop without its sea,
Without reincarnation what more, pray, wouldst thou be?

That which you love enough can render you rebirth:
Love God and become God, love earth and become earth.

Love is the Lord of All. Even the Trinity
Hath been in thrall to Love from all eternity.

Love is God's nature. He can do naught else. Wouldst thou
Be God? Then likewise love in every instant's Now.

I am the church of God. The altar of my heart,
Is holiest when clean and empty of all art.

God, whose love and joy are present everywhere,
can't come to visit you unless you aren't there.

Pass through Love's gate if thou wouldst go
 The shortest way to God:
Who takes the Path of Knowledge, long
 Must tarry on the road

Love is the mortal god, all creatures live by love.
Thrice blessèd every man for whom this thought's enough

The drop becomes the sea when into sea 'tis blended.
The soul turns into God if unto God ascended

A Loaf holds many grains of corn
And many myriad drops the Sea:
So is God's Oneness Multitude
And that great Multitude are we...."


- Angelus Silesius (1624 – 1677), Polish-German Catholic mystic & poet

Pretty much captures the little my human brain can conceive of the Infinite God who is love, that love which spans the entire cosmos and is the source of all things.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

What is God?

Honestly, I don't know because I am finite whereas he is infinite, I am knowable whereas he in his Essence is unknowable and outwith human imagination. Nonetheless he fills his creation and is within it by his very being, through his divine energies which penetrate the universe like water soaking into a sponge. He is thus everywhere, all at once and so something of Him can be known through the world of nature which is his book of primary self-revelation. And, in agreement with brother Lucky, I believe God to be in his nature love as the Bible teaches, "Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love...God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them" (1 John 4:18). He does 'have' love, he does not love, he is not loving - he simply is love in the very depths of his unending Being, one eternal divine act beyond all place and time. And this is the love that, in the words of the poet Dante, "moves the sun and the other stars".

I like this description though, from the Catholic mystic Angelus Silesius:





Pretty much captures the little my human brain can conceive of the Infinite God who is love, that love which spans the entire cosmos and is the source of all things.

VOUTHON Ji,
The above all stated is true for a "WORD" as GOD and the same is GuROO
in SGGS.
I hope you can give a serious thinking to this fact.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Ambarsaria]

Vouthon ji don't ever assume that two Sikhs think alike. Say me and Prakash.S. Bagga ji.

What is God?

Honestly, I don't know because I am finite whereas he is infinite, I am knowable whereas he in his Essence is unknowable and outwith human imagination. Nonetheless he fills his creation and is within it by his very being, through his divine energies which penetrate the universe like water soaking into a sponge. He is thus everywhere, all at once and so something of Him can be known through the world of nature which is his book of primary self-revelation. And, in agreement with brother Lucky, I believe God to be in his nature love as the Bible teaches, "Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love...God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them" (1 John 4:18). He does not 'have' love, he does not love, he is not loving - he simply is love in the very depths of his unending Being, one eternal divine act beyond all place and time. And this is the love that, in the words of the poet Dante, "moves the sun and the other stars".

Your understanding above is pretty close to my understanding or thinking as well. The difficulty is we are all human and each is at their own level of perceptions, thinking, experiences. It is virtually impossible for us to change in spite of our general answers.

I am sure in your religion you have people who don't think like you and there are plenty who don't think like me either. Why should they? We are all humans and such is the gift from the creator.

In terms of God/creator we have a fair share of Sikhs who in their utmost honesty try to "BOX" God/creator while consistently ignoring what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji reminds us again and again about the infinite and we may never know but should never let that stop us from recognizing more of creator in all throughout our lives. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not bind God/creator within its covers. It is a great teacher that helps us continuously realize the infinite creation and creator in the space between our two ears.

I much disagree with Prakash.S.Bagga ji's assertions about words fully describing or even at times meaning to be as though the creator or God. Such are only our limits of perception that we place on the infinite. However if this is what one believes and it helps them be in greater consonance with creation, it is all good.

No disrespect to anyone implied or expressed. Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Archived_member15]

Vouthon ji don't ever assume that two Sikhs think alike. Say me and Prakash.S. Bagga ji.Your understanding above is pretty close to my understanding or thinking as well. The difficulty is we are all human and each is at their own level of perceptions, thinking, experiences. It is virtually impossible for us to change in spite of our general answers.

I am sure in your religion you have people who don't think like you and there are plenty who don't think like me either. Why should they? We are all humans and such is the gift from the creator.

In terms of God/creator we have a fair share of Sikhs who in their utmost honesty try to "BOX" God/creator while consistently ignoring what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji reminds us again and again about the infinite and we may never know but should never let that stop us from recognizing more of creator in all throughout our lives. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not bind God/creator within its covers. I t is a great teacher that helps us continuously realize the infinite creation and creator in the space between our two ears.

I much disagree with Prakash.S.Bagga ji's assertions about words fully describing or even at times meaning to be as though the creator or God. Such are only our limits of perception that we place on the infinite. However if this is what one believes and it helps them be in greater consonance with creation, it is all good.

No disrespect to anyone implied or expressed.Sat Sri Akal.

Thank you for your message brother Ambarsaria ji peacesignkaur

I completely agree, people have various levels of understanding even within the one faith and the most important thing is that whatever belief they have inspires them to lead good lives and as you see "be in greater consonance with creation". Its better having a simplistic faith in God with much love than great comprehension of complex subjects without the love to show it. One is more learned the more one has become aware that one is ignorant.

Then we come to realise that we cannot comprehend God in our logical faculties, but we can only become aware of God’s all pervasive presence through a mystical insight into the deep “harmony of all things”: the entire creation is the “mirror of God”, God is therefore “the radical unity of the opposites”(to use Cardinal's Cusa's words).

I was only offering my personal understanding of it from my perspective. I do not, by any means, believe that Sikhs all think alike (or indeed Catholics). Diversity is part of creation:

"...Diversity in creation and cultures is the language of God, the radical unity of the opposites. In God absolute unity is absolute multiplicity. It is you, O God, who is being sought in various religions in various ways, and named with various names. For you remain as you are, to all incomprehensible and inexpressible. When you will graciously grant it, then sword, jealous hatred and evil will cease and all will come to know that there is but one religion in the variety of religious faiths. Love makes the entry, where reason remains outside the door..."

- Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa (1401 –1464), Catholic mystic

The truth is, because God is infinite, he is above "opinions". I agree completely that we should not disparage others from having a different understanding from oneself:

"...The more we let each voice sound forth with its own tone, The more diverse will be the chant in unison.

The Nightingale mocks not the Cuckoo's note, 'tis true,
And yet you scorn my song if I sing not as you.

Ah, were men's voices like the wood-birds' melody— Each happy note distinct, but all in harmony!

Opinions are as sand,—a fool would build thereon.
You, building on opinions, are not the wisest one..."

- Angelus Silesius (1624 – 1677), Polish-German Catholic mystic & poet

The way I see it is God is truth, every one who is seeking after truth is seeking God. No religion and no human being has or ever can fully comprehended the divine and so no religion or person can be called superior to another, even though our degrees of understanding differ, we ultimately are all left unknowing before God. All religions and all people have different approaches to that Absolute Truth and and all contain elements of divine revelation. However they comprehend that truth to varying degrees but are all united in that none of them has fully comprehended that truth, such that all must be understood in relation to each other. No religion or person has a monopoly on truth.


May we all mindfully appreciate the rich diversity of every person whom we meet. Like flowers in a garden we each bring beauty, variety, and sustenance to our world, and as Pope John once said:

"...All men, then, should turn their attention away from those things that divide and separate us, and should consider how they may be joined in mutual and just regard for one another's opinions and possessions...For discussion can lead to fuller and deeper understanding of religious truths; when one idea strikes against another, there may be a spark..."

- Pope John XXIII, AD PETRI CATHEDRAM (On Truth, Unity and Peace), 1959

So I fully agree brother Ambarsaria ji, we should recognise that people have different understandings, respect and embrace it.

 

[Luckysingh]

However it helps someone, it doesn't matter.
I have come to understand and accept that not everyone can grasp the infinite aspect to understand God. Some need some sort of earthly description to help them such as deities, texts or words.
It's not the sikh way but if it helps then it helps them and I can't argue.

Prakashji, the reference you made is a valid biblical quote by John from what I remember.
Now this was also John the baptist if I'm not wrong and we further learnt that the 'word' was also in the water used to baptise. Remember that John baptised Jesus himself as the 'word' of God was in the baptism.
I would relate this same 'word' to the gurbani 'shabad' or Guru as you mentioned in a similar way and this is one aspect that can highlight the similarity in religions.

 

[palaingtha]

only several?

does this mean I am not at present merged?

A zebra will never shed its stripes!!!

 

[palaingtha]

What is God?

Honestly, I don't know because I am finite whereas he is infinite, I am knowable whereas he in his Essence is unknowable and outwith human imagination. Nonetheless he fills his creation and is within it by his very being, through his divine energies which penetrate the universe like water soaking into a sponge. He is thus everywhere, all at once and so something of Him can be known through the world of nature which is his book of primary self-revelation. And, in agreement with brother Lucky, I believe God to be in his nature love as the Bible teaches, "Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love...God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them" (1 John 4:18). He does not 'have' love, he does not love, he is not loving - he simply is love in the very depths of his unending Being, one eternal divine act beyond all place and time. And this is the love that, in the words of the poet Dante, "moves the sun and the other stars".

I like this description though, from the Catholic mystic Angelus Silesius:





Pretty much captures the little my human brain can conceive of the Infinite God who is love, that love which spans the entire cosmos and is the source of all things.

Simply put GOD is the creator of this entire universe and no similes can be given as HE is the only and the only ONE creator, sustainer and what not. No words can describe HIS entity.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Simply put GOD is the creator of this entire universe and no similes can be given as HE is the only and the only ONE creator, sustainer and what not. No words can describe HIS entity

PALAINTHA Ji,
I think one should relook into what is being described in the very first line
of SGGS.(EKKANKAAR to GuR PRASAADi)
Is nt this a perfect description of the entity of the CREATOR in words from our GuRu.?

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

He can't be explained in binary code because he's in Cosmic code.(All Ones)

 

[BhagatSingh]

Infinity is bigger than you think.

With that said the concept in Sikhism is not of infinity but that of "unreachable limits". Tera ant na paya jaye, Your end can not be obtained. There is a subtle difference between the two and members in discussion may want to take a moment and think about that.
And this is not some abstract mathematical infinity. The unreachable limits can be seen with the inner eye if one knows how to look, it's just that you can only quietly see them without ever grasping them yourself or explaining them to another. Everything you know or understand dissolves as it approaches the limits. It no longer serves you. You really cannot take this and shove it in someone's face as evidence that they are wrong. There is no right or wrong here. Any thing, any faculty any way of getting to that limit will fail as it approaches it, hence why ant cannot be paya jaye.

So in a discussion about God, talking about the limits serves only as a reminder to humility, never as something that is the matter of discussion itself. It is purely as a taste for someone who sees it. The discussion must proceed onwards to what we do know about God that we can actually share with others.

Sometimes there is no disccusion simply a sentence, a pangti that captures it all, like this one by SPji.

He can't be explained in binary code because he's in Cosmic code.(All Ones)

Granted that is his normal style but it reminds me of that story of a mechanic (and I paraphrase) who was called in my someone with a broken machine. The mechanic walks in, takes a good look at it, taps it here and there and then switches it on. And gr gr gr gr gr gr gr it starts. The owner of the machine, happy at the result, asks him for his fee. The mechanic says $2000. The machine-owner is just shocked at this. He says "all you did was tap it a few times! I am not paying $2000 for a few taps." The mechanic says "Well, all my knowledge and training went into knowing exactly where to tap, and that's what you are paying for." ...

I think the experience of God operates like that, a few taps here and there kick start a human being to experience God but knowing where to tap, that crucial bit of knowledge, only comes from a guru and from practice. The guru is the mechanic who taps you and you then obtain that knowledge about yourself... :sippingcoffeemunda:

 

[Luckysingh]

Infinity is just a word we know that still cannot reach the limit.
We don't even have the ability to even 'imagine' the expanse of just what he simply knows about us.
When I was very young, say about 6-7 yrs old, I would just be amazed by thinking about how big and clever his brain must be !! - I would think that if he knows all our names of the billions and billions in the world and he also knows exactly what we are all doing and thinking at this very second then he must obviously have a very huge and clever brain !!
Of course this is simple kids thoughts, but it makes you realise that he knows us all as individuals and then he knows exactly what the trillions of cells in our bodies are doing!
So from the huge galaxies and milky ways out there to our microscopic cellular level, he commands ALL.
What is even so amazing is that scientists and us can all go outwards and on huge multi-global scales trying to get answers for the universe, BUT they can also go inwards to the same extent to find answers and explanations for our very microscopic and multi-cellular functions.
However, the dangers are that we can get lost in both dimensions of exploration and drift away from the real truth. Which is why I believe that we have equal amounts of global and natural problems as well as medical and body function problems.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

He can't be explained in binary code because he's in Cosmic code.(All Ones)

But in Hurbanee GuRu is telling that Code .
I think this should be understood by every sikh.

In fact every invisible thing can be understood thru code only like G,M and I word codes for Gravitational,Magnetic and Current in science.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Infinity is just a word we know that still cannot reach the limit.
We don't even have the ability to even 'imagine' the expanse of just what he simply knows about us.
When I was very young, say about 6-7 yrs old, I would just be amazed by thinking about how big and clever his brain must be !! - I would think that if he knows all our names of the billions and billions in the world and he also knows exactly what we are all doing and thinking at this very second then he must obviously have a very huge and clever brain !!
Of course this is simple kids thoughts, but it makes you realise that he knows us all as individuals and then he knows exactly what the trillions of cells in our bodies are doing!
So from the huge galaxies and milky ways out there to our microscopic cellular level, he commands ALL.
What is even so amazing is that scientists and us can all go outwards and on huge multi-global scales trying to get answers for the universe, BUT they can also go inwards to the same extent to find answers and explanations for our very microscopic and multi-cellular functions.
However, the dangers are that we can get lost in both dimensions of exploration and drift away from the real truth. Which is why I believe that we have equal amounts of global and natural problems as well as medical and body function problems.

LUCKY SINGH Ji,
If one understands the science of COSMIC phenomena then one should understand the word GuROO as GuRu.GuRu or HARi.HARi being the
COSMIC CODE from GuRu for Sikhs .
In one way the completete knowledge of Gurbanee is also a Science of the word GuROO ...One should ponder over this important aspect too if one is actually familiar what the science is all about.

Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[Harry Haller]

I think the experience of God operates like that, a few taps here and there kick start a human being to experience God but knowing where to tap, that crucial bit of knowledge, only comes from a guru and from practice. The guru is the mechanic who taps you and you then obtain that knowledge about yourself...

Veerji

I agree completely however I would have put slightly different

I think the experience of God operates like that, a few taps here and there kick start a human being to experience God but knowing where to tap, that crucial bit of knowledge, only comes from THE guru and from practice. The guru is the mechanic who taps you and you then obtain that knowledge about yourself...

 

[Harry Haller]

A zebra will never shed its stripes!!!

Last edited by palaingtha; Yesterday at 14:52 PM. Reason: to correct the saying.

If you are going to correct something, it always helps to correct it with something correct.

I do not find the above incorrect statement (leopard/spots) within Sikhism at all, a Sikh is a student a learner, one who is constantly changing, evolving, reaching for the truth, can you provide any basis for the above statement that it is Sikhi? or is it just another of your personal bigoted opinions?

Creator is everywhere and in everything, there is no need to merge at a later stage, the merging has already taken place, all we have to do is listen.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

The guru is the mechanic who taps you and you then obtain that knowledge about yourself...

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Bhagat Singh Ji,

Very appropriate statement from a person of your cllibre,
So meeting GuRu is must .
What is GuRu an How is met is all from within Gurbanee or thru the grace of GuRu only
Prakash.S.Bagga
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[palaingtha]

Last edited by palaingtha; Yesterday at 14:52 PM. Reason: to correct the saying.

If you are going to correct something, it always helps to correct it with something correct.

I do not find the above incorrect statement (leopard/spots) within Sikhism at all, a Sikh is a student a learner, one who is constantly changing, evolving, reaching for the truth, can you provide any basis for the above statement that it is Sikhi? or is it just another of your personal bigoted opinions?

Creator is everywhere and in everything, there is no need to merge at a later stage, the merging has already taken place, all we have to do is listen.

The comment was directed at you. You will never change in writing with the intent to taunt me rather than express you honest views on a topic under discussion.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Creator is everywhere and in everything, there is no need to merge at a later stage, the merging has already taken place, all we have to do is listen.

Veer Ji If you are merged who is there to listen to ? As you are part of it you are just realising what you felt intuitively.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Sp ji,
What is there to feel if you have merged with God? You are the feeler, You are the feeling.

If we have gotten to a stage where we know this intuitively then the question is what to do?

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

One special thing is once your thinking has merged, you don't regress. And then rest of your life is in 'right' direction. You never act on hate, anger, greed etc.