What Is Naam?

[chazSingh]

That's all good, but the name itself doesn't lead to realization of Akaal. Realization comes from studying, reading, and discussing the attributes of the divine. One does not obtain a PhD in philosophy by merely repeating "Socrates".

Gurbani says even an illiterate can find God lol

You say "Sat Naam" can be used instead of "Waheguru" to evoke the same feelings. What you are still describing is akin to taking a drug or a placebo. "Sat Naam" Simran will not bring forth Sat any more than Pizza Simran will bring forth pizza. Regardless of how much love and devotion you have when you say the word "pizza", you still have to call the pizzeria, so they can deliver it to your house.

comparing words, vibration that came from the source, to words created by the minds of people... think i have finally heard it all

Guru ji advocates repeating the name "Har Har", but without gurbani to provide context, the word "Har Har" has no meaning. In fact, the meaning would change from one person to the next. This is why Guru ji has given 1430 pages worth of context.

i don't think anyone has said to stop reading and contemplating the whole of gurbani....

It ignited my yearning one monday afternoon whilst i was sat at work many years ago...it drew me in, got me contemplating and asking questions...seeking answers from it....its amazing...

your assuming anyone that does simran, just bypasses everything...

I wonder how many people doing "Waheguru" Simran understand what Waheguru is, beyond the warm and fuzzy feeling they get inside when they hear this name. I believe the Gurus came to give us knowledge, not just an emotional experience.

what do you understand about waheguru from your studies...

i learnt that waheguru is deep within your heart...to stop looking for Him on the outside...that he is right there inside you...

Maybe just Maybe some of the people who are having this warm fuzzy feeling 'INSIDE' are experiencing to some degree the Waheguru they seek who is also 'INSIDE them'

lol

no amount of study can replace that....no words can describe it...maybe that's why they just describe it as warm fuzzy feelin...

ndeed, "Waheguru" Simran takes your mind off of the five thieves, but it does not lead to an understanding of what the 5 thieves are and why they are bad. Without understanding, we become like those three monkeys: See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil. In other words, saturate your senses so the bad stuff can't get in. In this sense, it is a leash for a dog. What's even better is a dog that doesn't need a leash.

it goes beyond taking your mind of the 5 thieves...it allows you to regain control of your mind so that you don;t have the negative thoughts in the first place...

of course you are right, everyone learns through life experiences that the 5 thieves are negative if we allow them to control us...mind can be controlled through life experiences also...but in my humble opinion i believe complete awakening from the clutches of the thieves occurs through gurpursaad/grace

I'm not against Waheguru Simran. I'm against using it as a means to enlightenment. It is nothing more than a tool used to quiet the mind. No gyaan is attained from this endeavor.

no gian gained from quieting the wandering mind that is influenced by the 5 thieves? ...

::delete - see full shabad below::
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=1478

Lets not reduce the importance and Significance of such beautiful bani
::So lets quote full shabads, with Gurmukhi and English, and Panna number!-Ishna:

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 5.
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:

ਉਦਮੁ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਨਾਚੈ ਆਪੁ ਨਿਵਾਰੇ ॥
Uḏam karaṯ hovai man nirmal nācẖai āp nivāre.
Making the effort, the mind becomes pure; in this dance, the self is silenced.

ਪੰਚ ਜਨਾ ਲੇ ਵਸਗਤਿ ਰਾਖੈ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੇ ॥੧॥
Pancẖ janā le vasgaṯ rākẖai man mėh ekankāre. ||1||
The five passions are kept under control, and the One Lord dwells in the mind. ||1||

ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ ॥
Ŧerā jan niraṯ kare gun gāvai.
Your humble servant dances and sings Your Glorious Praises.

ਰਬਾਬੁ ਪਖਾਵਜ ਤਾਲ ਘੁੰਘਰੂ ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਜਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Rabāb pakẖāvaj ṯāl gẖungẖrū anhaḏ sabaḏ vajāvai. ||1|| rahā▫o.
He plays upon the guitar, tambourine and cymbals, and the unstruck sound current of the Shabad resounds. ||1||Pause||

ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਮਨੁ ਪਰਬੋਧੈ ਅਪਨਾ ਪਾਛੈ ਅਵਰ ਰੀਝਾਵੈ ॥
Parathme man parboḏẖai apnā pācẖẖai avar rījẖāvai.
First, he instructs his own mind, and then, he leads others.

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਜਪੁ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਜਾਪੈ ਮੁਖ ਤੇ ਸਗਲ ਸੁਨਾਵੈ ॥੨॥
Rām nām jap hirḏai jāpai mukẖ ṯe sagal sunāvai. ||2||
He chants the Lord's Name and meditates on it in his heart; with his mouth, he announces it to all. ||2||

ਕਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਚਰਨ ਪਖਾਰੈ ਸੰਤ ਧੂਰਿ ਤਨਿ ਲਾਵੈ ॥
Kar sang sāḏẖū cẖaran pakẖārai sanṯ ḏẖūr ṯan lāvai.
He joins the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, and washes their feet; he applies the dust of the Saints to his body

ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਅਰਪਿ ਧਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਆਗੈ ਸਤਿ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੩॥
Man ṯan arap ḏẖare gur āgai saṯ paḏārath pāvai. ||3||
He surrenders his mind and body, and places them before the Guru; thus, he obtains the true wealth. ||3||

ਜੋ ਜੋ ਸੁਨੈ ਪੇਖੈ ਲਾਇ ਸਰਧਾ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦੁਖੁ ਭਾਗੈ ॥
Jo jo sunai pekẖai lā▫e sarḏẖā ṯā kā janam maran ḏukẖ bẖāgai.
Whoever listens to, and beholds the Guru with faith, shall see his pains of birth and death taken away.

ਐਸੀ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਨਰਕ ਨਿਵਾਰੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਗੈ ॥੪॥੪॥੪੩॥
Aisī niraṯ narak nivārai Nānak gurmukẖ jāgai. ||4||4||43||
Such a dance eliminates hell; O Nanak, the Gurmukh remains wakeful. ||4||4||43||

Panna 381

 

[chazSingh]

This 'us vs them' mentatilty is starting to give me the irrits! Aren't we community exploring these topics together??? That kind of "we have tried explaining to you people" attitude is NOT helping anything.

Lucky and Harry Jis: We all experience this thing we can't even define which is 'Naam' individually. Some experience it by meditating quietly, others experience it in their every day lives, most people I assume are somewhere in the middle!

This is PRECISELY the rabbit hole I alluded to in the beginning of this thread. Discussions spiral down the rabbit hole by the repetative fixation on Naam simran meditation TO THE EXCLUSION of all else. Every thread is hijacked in a similar fashion.

It is an obvious problem, and we should all take care to AVOID such discussion in so many threads, not because it's not relevant or important or meaningful or useful, but because it's shutting the discussions down.

Can we PLEASE discuss the appropriate topic, which is actually trying to DEFINE NAAM! Everyone has had ample opportunity to talk about Naam simran and the experience of Naam by quiet meditation; does anyone have anything ELSE to say about Naam?

apologies if i've come across that way...

i think Naam is like the rays of the Sun that penetrate through everything...

the essence of God that flows through all of his creation

I take from Gurbani and the accounts of the Guru Ji's, that it can be experienced, and enjoyed..but impossible to describe in any real terms...as hard as steel

upon experiencing it, i believe all fear within my mind, or worries, anxieties, hate, anger, Ego, fear of death will be dissolved away.

Upon experiencing it, i believe love, compassion, forgiveness, patience, perseverance, truth, fearlessness, courage and many of Waheguru's attributes will come shining forth through my very being...not bound by any limits or egotistical selfish conditions...TRUE LOVE...a true servant of waheguru and his creation

i believe not only i can experience it, i believe we can all experience it...

The more we experience it, the greater the heaven we will create on this earth for us and for future generations

Gurbani says the earth, moon and stars, the treas the oceans are all meditating on his Naam...so we should look after everything and each other

I believe my Ego and corrupted mind has prevented me to realize this...and has put me into a rotten sleep and limited existance i call my current life...

Is it time to wake up?...time to regain control and experience naam and kick my Ego in the ....

God Bless

 

[chazSingh]

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
आसा महला १ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 1.
Aasaa, First Mehl:

ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤੂਤਿ ਬੇਲਿ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੀ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਫਲੁ ਹੂਆ ॥
करम करतूति बेलि बिसथारी राम नामु फलु हूआ ॥
Karam karṯūṯ bel bisthārī rām nām fal hū▫ā.
The vine of good actions and character has spread out, and it bears the fruit of the Lord's Name.

ਤਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਅਨਾਹਦੁ ਵਾਜੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥੧॥
तिसु रूपु न रेख अनाहदु वाजै सबदु निरंजनि कीआ ॥१॥
Ŧis rūp na rekẖ anāhaḏ vājai sabaḏ niranjan kī▫ā. ||1||
The Name has no form or outline; it vibrates with the unstruck Sound Current; through the Word of the Shabad, the Immaculate Lord is revealed. ||1||

ਕਰੇ ਵਖਿਆਣੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ॥
करे वखिआणु जाणै जे कोई ॥
Kare vakẖi▫āṇ jāṇai je ko▫ī.
One can speak on this only when he knows it.

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਸੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
अम्रितु पीवै सोई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Amriṯ pīvai so▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
He alone drinks in the Ambrosial Nectar. ||1||Pause||

ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਪੀਆ ਸੇ ਮਸਤ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਤੂਟੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਫਾਹੇ ॥
जिन्ह पीआ से मसत भए है तूटे बंधन फाहे ॥
Jinĥ pī▫ā se masaṯ bẖa▫e hai ṯūte banḏẖan fāhe.
Those who drink it in are enraptured; their bonds and shackles are cut away.

ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਤਾ ਛੋਡੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੇ ਲਾਹੇ ॥੨॥
जोती जोति समाणी भीतरि ता छोडे माइआ के लाहे ॥२॥
Joṯī joṯ samāṇī bẖīṯar ṯā cẖẖode mā▫i▫ā ke lāhe. ||2||
When one's light blends into the Divine Light, then the desire for Maya is ended. ||2||

ਸਰਬ ਜੋਤਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਸਗਲ ਭਵਨ ਤੇਰੀ ਮਾਇਆ ॥
सरब जोति रूपु तेरा देखिआ सगल भवन तेरी माइआ ॥
Sarab joṯ rūp ṯerā ḏekẖi▫ā sagal bẖavan ṯerī mā▫i▫ā.
Among all lights, I behold Your Form; all the worlds are Your Maya.

ਰਾਰੈ ਰੂਪਿ ਨਿਰਾਲਮੁ ਬੈਠਾ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਛਾਇਆ ॥੩॥
रारै रूपि निरालमु बैठा नदरि करे विचि छाइआ ॥३॥
Rārai rūp nirālam baiṯẖā naḏar kare vicẖ cẖẖā▫i▫ā. ||3||
Among the tumults and forms, He sits in serene detachment; He bestows His Glance of Grace upon those who are engrossed in the illusion. ||3||

ਬੀਣਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਜਾਵੈ ਜੋਗੀ ਦਰਸਨਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥
बीणा सबदु वजावै जोगी दरसनि रूपि अपारा ॥
Bīṇā sabaḏ vajāvai jogī ḏarsan rūp apārā.
The Yogi who plays on the instrument of the Shabad gains the Blessed Vision of the Infinitely Beautiful Lord.

ਸਬਦਿ ਅਨਾਹਦਿ ਸੋ ਸਹੁ ਰਾਤਾ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹੈ ਵਿਚਾਰਾ ॥੪॥੮॥
सबदि अनाहदि सो सहु राता नानकु कहै विचारा ॥४॥८॥
Sabaḏ anāhaḏ so saho rāṯā Nānak kahai vicẖārā. ||4||8||
He, the Lord, is immersed in the Unstruck Shabad of the Word, says Nanak, the humble and meek. ||4||8||

 

[Sherdil]

ਤਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਅਨਾਹਦੁ ਵਾਜੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥੧॥

तिसु रूपु न रेख अनाहदु वाजै सबदु निरंजनि कीआ ॥१॥
Ŧis rūp na rekẖ anāhaḏ vājai sabaḏ niranjan kī▫ā. ||1||
The Name has no form or outline; it vibrates with the unstruck Sound Current; through the Word of the Shabad, the Immaculate Lord is revealed. ||1||

What does this part mean?

 

[Luckysingh]

What does this part mean?

ਤਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਅਨਾਹਦੁ ਵਾਜੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥੧॥
Ŧis rūp na rekẖ anāhaḏ vājai sabaḏ niranjan kī▫ā. ||1||
The Name has no form or outline; it vibrates with the unstruck Sound Current; through the Word of the Shabad, the Immaculate Lord is revealed. ||1||

It means the Naam has no shape or form in sargun terms.
But the anhad sound current which can be heard only by the inner subtle ears, carries this very naam.

Next part......
'Through the word of the shabad, the immaculate Lord is revealed''
is to say that the anahad sound current + the naam that is emebedded in it(or carried on it's sound wave) = the word of the shabad.


The lord is revealed ONLY through the shabad or if the shabad is present at the forefront.
This is quite important and is mentioned in many other shabads.
There are a number of messages in the shabad above, but one of them is to differentiate between yogic practice and gurmat.

futher down is the line-
ਬੀਣਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਜਾਵੈ ਜੋਗੀ ਦਰਸਨਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥
Bīṇā sabaḏ vajāvai jogī ḏarsan rūp apārā.
The Yogi who plays on the instrument of the Shabad gains the Blessed Vision of the Infinitely Beautiful Lord

In terms of differentiating, yoga practice is meditating on what they term the 'anhad' but they have no shabad or gurmantar.
Therefore, since word of shabad = anhad +naam, they won't experience the naam without the shabad.
All 3 factors are only present if the word of shabad is present.
''playing on the instrument of shabd' or shabad vajavai means to sing the word as per continuous plucking of instrument string.......
So, the line above is saying that the yogi that practices with singing this word of shabad(gurmantar), will obtain the darshan of the Lord.

This also tells us that anyone can get the darshan of the Lord providing they travel forward with the word of shabad.

 

[Sherdil]

ਤਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਅਨਾਹਦੁ ਵਾਜੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥੧॥
Ŧis rūp na rekẖ anāhaḏ vājai sabaḏ niranjan kī▫ā. ||1||
The Name has no form or outline; it vibrates with the unstruck Sound Current; through the Word of the Shabad, the Immaculate Lord is revealed. ||1||

It means the Naam has no shape or form in sargun terms.
But the anhad sound current which can be heard only by the inner subtle ears, carries this very naam.

Next part......
'Through the word of the shabad, the immaculate Lord is revealed''
is to say that the anahad sound current + the naam that is emebedded in it(or carried on it's sound wave) = the word of the shabad.


The lord is revealed ONLY through the shabad or if the shabad is present at the forefront.

I thought the Shabadh was everywhere. I think I see your viewpoint, but what if we look at it like this:

Tis rup na rekh = Whose form is not outlined

Anahad vajai shabadh = limitless vibrating Shabadh

niranjan kia = made it pure?

(Naam) whose form is not outlined, vibrates as the limitless Shabadh that makes it pure.

What is the it? Is it the mind?

I just want to clarify this tuk first, before we move on. Thanks.

 

[chazSingh]

I thought the Shabadh was everywhere. I think I see your viewpoint, but what if we look at it like this:

Tis rup na rekh = Whose form is not outlined

Anahad vajai shabadh = limitless vibrating Shabadh

niranjan kia = made it pure?

(Naam) whose form is not outlined, vibrates as the limitless Shabadh that makes it pure.

What is the it? Is it the mind?

I just want to clarify this tuk first, before we move on. Thanks.

i think your interpretation also sound fine...
i would say it is your mind, but also your whole being (physical, mind and spiritual (soul, subtle body...whatever you want to call it)

The Shabad is everywhere Gurbani says easiest place to experience it is within yourself...

anahad naad will reveal itself to you within yourself...

and that is why people block out the outside world for a short amount of time in the early hours to concentrate single mindedly with deep though and contemplation on the Shabad...they are almost training their minds to stop with the wandering and hopefully with Guru Ji's grace the anhad naad is felt and experienced and it draws your consciousness towards Waheguru Ji.

A wandering mind that keeps making you thinking of sex, money, egotistical things, worries, anxieties etc etc gives your being no chance at all to align with the inner shabad, attention needs to be extremely focused like an arrow.

As you become purer, your daily actions become purer, and you then become a more trustworthy, helpful, loving, compassionate, fearless member of society...

 

[gur_meet]

I thought the Shabadh was everywhere. I think I see your viewpoint, but what if we look at it like this:

Tis rup na rekh = Whose form is not outlined

Anahad vajai shabadh = limitless vibrating Shabadh

niranjan kia = made it pure?

(Naam) whose form is not outlined, vibrates as the limitless Shabadh that makes it pure.

What is the it? Is it the mind?

I just want to clarify this tuk first, before we move on. Thanks.

Here it is to be seen first what 'niranjan" means. Does it really mean "pure" ? When we look at other Shabads like one on panna 730 :

ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਖਿੰਥਾ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਡੰਡੈ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਭਸਮ ਚੜਾਈਐ
Jog N Khinthhaa Jog N Ddanddai Jog N Bhasam Charraaeeai ||
Yoga is not the patched coat, Yoga is not the walking stick. Yoga is not smearing the body with ashes.

ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਮੁੰਦੀ ਮੂੰਡਿ ਮੁਡਾਇਐ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਸਿੰਙੀ ਵਾਈਐ
Jog N Mundhee Moondd Muddaaeiai Jog N Sinn(g)ee Vaaeeai ||
Yoga is not the ear-rings, and not the shaven head. Yoga is not the blowing of the horn.

ਅੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਇਵ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੧॥
Anjan Maahi Niranjan Reheeai Jog Jugath Eiv Paaeeai ||1||
Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world - this is the way to attain Yoga. ||1||

When we look at certain other translations/tikkas there from the pungtee:

ਅੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਇਵ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੧॥
Anjan Maahi Niranjan Reheeai Jog Jugath Eiv Paaeeai ||1||

In Anjan living Niranjan are explained with variations. One explains theses as remaining pure in the midst of impurity. Niranjan is also has been explained as " being not attached to maya" whereas anjan is to be attached to maya.

However the shabad is heard when one's awareness is inward.

Another question to be pondered is - Is it the mind that becomes pure ?

 

[chazSingh]

Here it is to be seen first what 'niranjan" means. Does it really mean "pure" ? When we look at other Shabads like one on panna 730 :<snip>

Thank you ji for your very clear explanation of the variances...

i think the mind does becomes pure in the sense that its wandering is reduced, and we (soul) use our mind in daily tasks and to aid in our inner path....at the moment it doesn't give us a true seconds stillness to experience the truth, our true being and reality.

There is a shabad (i will try to find it) that states "let the five passions come under your control and let the mind become your walking stick"

so the mind is our tool which we can use, but not in its monkey state running around engrossed in Maya...it's pull is so strong, we follow like slaves

I think the purity is already there...we are pure by nature...it is just our mind which tells us otherwise and which drags our attention/consciousness soul around like a slave the majority of times.

 

[Sherdil]

Let's not forget the first tuk also:

ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤੂਤਿ ਬੇਲਿ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੀ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਫਲੁ ਹੂਆ ॥
करम करतूति बेलि बिसथारी राम नामु फलु हूआ ॥
Karam karṯūṯ bel bisthārī rām nām fal hū▫ā.

Karam kartut bel bisthari = The vine of karmic deeds spreads out.

Ram nam fal hua = The Lord's name blossoms forth.

So, if we add the first two tuks together, we get:

The vine of karmic deeds spreads out, and the Lord's name blossoms forth.

The name's form is not outlined. It vibrates as the limitless shabadh, making the mind pure.

Is there a difference between unblemished and pure? I chose the word pure because I thought it meant "without contamination".

I do think the tuk is referring to the mind. Naam is already all around us, vibrating as the shabadh. The only place it has yet to blossom forth is in the mind.

So if Naam blossoms forth on the vine of karmic deeds, then isn't it our actions that cultivate Naam within our minds?

 

[gur_meet]

Let's not forget the first tuk also:



Karam kartut bel bisthari = The vine of karmic deeds spreads out.

Ram nam fal hua = The Lord's name blossoms forth.

So, if we add the first two tuks together, we get:



Is there a difference between unblemished and pure? I chose the word pure because I thought it meant "without contamination".

I do think the tuk is referring to the mind. Naam is already all around us, vibrating as the shabadh. The only place it has yet to blossom forth is in the mind.

So if Naam blossoms forth on the vine of karmic deeds, then isn't it our actions that cultivate Naam within our minds?

I agree Pure could be the chosen word . Pure signifies a state purity. Meaning a pure state of being "jyote swaroope".

But when we look at the word "Sachiar" as in the first pauri of japji Sahib then there also we have to call it a pure state as well. Sach means true as contrasted with with a state where there is false. Maya creates the illusion,attachments etc which prevents us from knowing Sach.
Sach is the presence of Naam.

In the above pungtees being discussed. The fruit of karmic deeds is being referred to. We gurbani explains that Simran is the highest form of Karmic deed. The Anhad Shabad appearance is the result of simran.
The next pungtee states that ਤਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਅਨਾਹਦੁ ਵਾਜੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥੧॥ Ŧis rūp na rekẖ anāhaḏ vājai sabaḏ niranjan kī▫ā. ||1|| meaning that when there is Anahad Shabad resounding the Sikh is also made Niranjan.

Is the meaning of Niranjan here same as Sachiar ?

But from what is seen in Sikhs who reach this stage when Anhad Shabad is being heard there are still further stages.
I have come across mediators with other religious background where they are hearing the Celistial Sound ( Anhad Shabad). With them certain experiences which Sikhs have are missing in clear sense . One is Hazuri. Another is regular communion with Shabad. The difference comes because of being confused with respect to form.

So this stage it seems is not a final one of purity - meaning jyote swarope. The missing part being Haume - the separate self identity.
The five vikars or five doots afflict the mind. When Naam enters these go.
The Haume also affects the mind for sure. When haume is not there then these is stage of Jyote with Jyote.
What happens to the mind here ?
When we look at our structure then it is Soul - mind - physical Body.
Where is haume here. Attached with Soul or part of Mind ?

 

[gur_meet]

Such a vichar is relevant in understanding Naam. As Naam is revealed through simran.
Here is an example from the Shabad quoted earlier in part. The full Shabad is as under.

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
Ik Oankaar Sathigur Prasaadh ||
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਖਿੰਥਾ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਡੰਡੈ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਭਸਮ ਚੜਾਈਐ ॥
Jog N Khinthhaa Jog N Ddanddai Jog N Bhasam Charraaeeai ||
Yoga is not the patched coat, Yoga is not the walking stick. Yoga is not smearing the body with ashes.

ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਮੁੰਦੀ ਮੂੰਡਿ ਮੁਡਾਇਐ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਸਿੰਙੀ ਵਾਈਐ ॥
Jog N Mundhee Moondd Muddaaeiai Jog N Sinn(g)ee Vaaeeai ||
Yoga is not the ear-rings, and not the shaven head. Yoga is not the blowing of the horn.

ਅੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਇਵ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੧॥
Anjan Maahi Niranjan Reheeai Jog Jugath Eiv Paaeeai ||1||
Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world - this is the way to attain Yoga. ||1||

ਗਲੀ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
Galee Jog N Hoee ||
By mere words, Yoga is not attained.

ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਮਸਰਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਜੋਗੀ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Eaek Dhrisatt Kar Samasar Jaanai Jogee Keheeai Soee ||1|| Rehaao ||
One who looks upon all with a single eye, and knows them to be one and the same - he alone is known as a Yogi. ||1||Pause||

ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਮੜੀ ਮਸਾਣੀ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਤਾੜੀ ਲਾਈਐ ॥
Jog N Baahar Marree Masaanee Jog N Thaarree Laaeeai ||
Yoga is not wandering to the tombs of the dead; Yoga is not sitting in trances.

ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਦੇਸਿ ਦਿਸੰਤਰਿ ਭਵਿਐ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਈਐ ॥
Jog N Dhaes Dhisanthar Bhaviai Jog N Theerathh Naaeeai ||
Yoga is not wandering through foreign lands; Yoga is not bathing at sacred shrines of pilgrimage.

ਅੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਇਵ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੨॥
Anjan Maahi Niranjan Reheeai Jog Jugath Eiv Paaeeai ||2||
Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world - this is the way to attain Yoga. ||2||

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟੈ ਤਾ ਸਹਸਾ ਤੂਟੈ ਧਾਵਤੁ ਵਰਜਿ ਰਹਾਈਐ ॥
Sathigur Bhaettai Thaa Sehasaa Thoottai Dhhaavath Varaj Rehaaeeai ||
Meeting with the True Guru, doubt is dispelled, and the wandering mind is restrained.

ਨਿਝਰੁ ਝਰੈ ਸਹਜ ਧੁਨਿ ਲਾਗੈ ਘਰ ਹੀ ਪਰਚਾ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
Nijhar Jharai Sehaj Dhhun Laagai Ghar Hee Parachaa Paaeeai ||
Nectar rains down, celestial music resounds, and deep within, wisdom is obtained.

ਅੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਇਵ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੩॥
Anjan Maahi Niranjan Reheeai Jog Jugath Eiv Paaeeai ||3||
Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world - this is the way to attain Yoga. ||3||

ਨਾਨਕ ਜੀਵਤਿਆ ਮਰਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਐਸਾ ਜੋਗੁ ਕਮਾਈਐ ॥
Naanak Jeevathiaa Mar Reheeai Aisaa Jog Kamaaeeai ||
O Nanak, remain dead while yet alive - practice such a Yoga.

ਵਾਜੇ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਸਿੰਙੀ ਵਾਜੈ ਤਉ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
Vaajae Baajhahu Sinn(g)ee Vaajai Tho Nirabho Padh Paaeeai ||
When the horn is blown without being blown, then you shall attain the state of fearless dignity.

ਅੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਤਉ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੪॥੧॥੮॥
Anjan Maahi Niranjan Reheeai Jog Jugath Tho Paaeeai ||4||1||8||
Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world - this is the way to attain Yoga. ||4||1||8||

ਸੂਹੀ ਮ : ੧ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੭੩੦ ਪੰ . ੧੮

In this Shabad guidance has two directions. One what is not to be done and the other what is to be done. One pungtee is ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਮਸਰਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਜੋਗੀ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Eaek Dhrisatt Kar Samasar Jaanai Jogee Keheeai Soee ||1|| Rehaao ||

Here the guidance advice is to make the gaze (how one see’s and perceives others) as of oneness knowing them to be one and the same - he alone is known as a Yogi. When this guidance is accepted and practiced as simran in daily life while perceiving others the issue comes is that what we see are individuals who are afflicted with the five. They express anger , some are not fair , some were bad in treating you , so much negative behavior. There are others who were kind , helpful and your loved ones. Practicing “ samsar dristi “- looking equally at all then requires lifting above the illusion created by maya. If one sees others as souls with a personality then the perception changes. The Soul is jyote swaroope – pure and personality is what the mind-body is living in the current life on earth. Personality is not the real person but a play during life. A soul may be having so many personalities from previous lives as part of sub conscious. ( Gurbani does speak of rebirths) All are one and from one source. This brings the shift . The forgiving and loving then enters you gaze. All are seen in different light. This is emphasized as Simran. When there is HIS kirpa the vision then comes nearer to expressing “samsara drisht “. This is also a feeling of Nirvair – an expression of Naam.

Naam is revealed and felt through simran. Vichar is part of Simran.
Simran is to keep up living the Gurbani again and again despite pulls of maya in daily life.

 

[chazSingh]

Such a vichar is relevant in understanding Naam. As Naam is revealed through simran.
Here is an example from the Shabad quoted earlier in part. The full Shabad is as under.
<snip>

very nice ji,

i believe as above that daily simran (looking at each other as one, seeing god in all) is a very good practice. One can realise very quickly though how difficult it is...we think we are getting somewhere then someone says something a little nasty to us and we get upset and angry and quickly we have dropped to the level of the Ego...

With his grace the more we try to see the God, Soul behind the drama and personality the quicker we can start to forgive, offer support, serve, become resilient etc etc...

Together with Amrit Vela Simran, i am very sure Waheguru Will keep glancing his grace and living purely throughout life becomes a natural occurrance

God Bless Ji

 

[Luckysingh]

Until NAAM is pargat, it is useless and offensive for any 'diligent studying scholar' to unknowingly try to explain !

You want to know what naam is, then there is one way to find out ?

 

[chazSingh]

Until NAAM is pargat, it is useless and offensive for any 'diligent studying scholar' to unknowingly try to explain !

You want to know what naam is, then there is one way to find out ?

Well Said Ji,

Look at Kabir Ji's description of his immense love for Waheguru...intoxicated in love, crazy in love...insanely in love...

How He describes not sitting around studying and getting into debates....not understanding all the debates...
but actually experiencing the Naam and love that Waheguru has graced him with.

bilaaval ||
bidhiaa n paro baadh nehee jaano ||
har gun kathhath sunath bouraano ||1||
maerae baabaa mai bouraa sabh khalak saiaanee mai bouraa ||
mai bigariou bigarai math aouraa ||1|| rehaao ||
aap n bouraa raam keeou bouraa ||
sathigur jaar gaeiou bhram moraa ||2||
mai bigarae apanee math khoee ||
maerae bharam bhoolo math koee ||3||
so bouraa jo aap n pashhaanai ||
aap pashhaanai th eaekai jaanai ||4||
abehi n maathaa s kabahu n maathaa ||
kehi kabeer raamai ra(n)g raathaa ||5||2||



Bilaaval:
I do not read books of knowledge, and I do not understand the debates.
I have gone insane, chanting and hearing the Glorious Praises of the Lord. ||1||
O my father, I have gone insane; the whole world is sane, and I am insane.
I am spoiled; let no one else be spoiled like me. ||1||Pause||
I have not made myself go insane - the Lord made me go insane.
The True Guru has burnt away my doubt. ||2||
I am spoiled; I have lost my intellect.
Let no one go astray in doubt like me. ||3||
He alone is insane, who does not understand himself.
When he understands himself, then he knows the One Lord. ||4||
One who is not intoxicated with the Lord now, shall never be intoxicated.
Says Kabeer, I am imbued with the Lord's Love. ||5||2||



http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=&ShabadID=3205&Format=2

 

[japjisahib04]

Until NAAM is pargat, it is useless and offensive for any 'diligent studying scholar' to unknowingly try to explain !

You want to know what naam is, then there is one way to find out ?

Gurbani at several places has given anologies of a farmer and I feel a simple farmer of any religion is more wiser than any scholar and common people. If any brahmgiani, karni waleh sant baba jee or shriman 108 tells him to chant millions of time any mantar or read Sukhmani sahib to convert his crops from rice to apple he will laugh. He understand the language of nature and can properly reads the laws of nature. He knows irrespective of chanting any number his crops cannot be converted and or even damaged crops cannot be repaired. We are not uneducated but by understanding gurbani atleast we can reach to his state of mind to achieve our achemy of spiritual level.

Gurbani at several places guides us how to connect with God. Unlike other major religions of the world who emphasises on physical body and traps us into the fear of punishment of afterdeath whereas gurbani directs us towards manh and says, 'ਮਨੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਨ ਤੇ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਮਨਸਾ ਮਨਹਿ ਸਮਾਈ ॥ Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji1125.12 - Chattering of Boss mind is appeased and satisfied by imbibing the divine message of nijhghar,the minds becomes the yogi and feels the pains of separation and all desires of fire is stilled in the mind or once I imbibe or tune my mat with paradigm of divine traits then it is automatically, 'anand bhiya meri maeye satguru mai paeya and no more consigning to different juenes. Very simple.

 

[chazSingh]

Gurbani at several places has given anologies of a farmer and I feel a simple farmer of any religion is more wiser than any scholar and common people. If any brahmgiani, karni waleh sant baba jee or shriman 108 tells him to chant millions of time any mantar or read Sukhmani sahib to convert his crops from rice to apple he will laugh. He understand the language of nature and can properly reads the laws of nature. He knows irrespective of chanting any number his crops cannot be converted and or even damaged crops cannot be repaired. We are not uneducated but by understanding gurbani atleast we can reach to his state of mind to achieve our achemy of spiritual level.

Gurbani at several places guides us how to connect with God. Unlike other major religions of the world who emphasises on physical body and traps us into the fear of punishment of afterdeath whereas gurbani directs us towards manh and says, 'ਮਨੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਨ ਤੇ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਮਨਸਾ ਮਨਹਿ ਸਮਾਈ ॥ Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji1125.12 - Chattering of Boss mind is appeased and satisfied by imbibing the divine message of nijhghar,the minds becomes the yogi and feels the pains of separation and all desires of fire is stilled in the mind or once I imbibe or tune my mat with paradigm of divine traits then it is automatically, 'anand bhiya meri maeye satguru mai paeya. Very simple.

Anyone that wants to use gurbani for any kind of physical gain and doesn't have the thirst and inner pull to seek Waheguru Ji will find very little value in any kind of repetition where the focus is not on waheguru Ji Himself.

For the ones who yearn day and night, Gurbani both to understand in an intellectual sense in order to set the compass in the right direction and as a vibration from the source of all existence is the most powerful tool we have to connect us to our inner shabad.

When i play it in my house, it changes the mood instantly...
when i read it at amrit vela, it focuses me in on my destination
when i need guidance it talks to me and sets me along in the right direction
when i meditate on it (in silence during the early hours where my consciousness and GurBani can intermingle with no distraction) it pulls my Surt into my very being and assists me to tune into my inner shabad that is waiting to guide my soul back home...

There is nothing else in this Universe that has this power...i truly with all my heart believe this 100%

God Bless Ji

 

[Harry Haller]

Anyone that wants to use gurbani for any kind of physical gain and doesn't have the thirst and inner pull to seek Waheguru Ji will find very little value in any kind of repetition where the focus is not on waheguru Ji Himself.

For the ones who yearn day and night, Gurbani both to understand in an intellectual sense in order to set the compass in the right direction and as a vibration from the source of all existence is the most powerful tool we have to connect us to our inner shabad.

When i play it in my house, it changes the mood instantly...
when i read it at amrit vela, it focuses me in on my destination
when i need guidance it talks to me and sets me along in the right direction
when i meditate on it (in silence during the early hours where my consciousness and GurBani can intermingle with no distraction) it pulls my Surt into my very being and assists me to tune into my inner shabad that is waiting to guide my soul back home...

There is nothing else in this Universe that has this power...i truly with all my heart believe this 100%

God Bless Ji

Let us be pragmatic for a moment, my argument is simple, there are some of us that see Naam as a something to be in tune with in order to be a better husband, son, father, brother, friend, ie, it is this Naam that gives us the strength and energy to keep giving to Creation, to connect to the whole of Creation in order to give to Creation.

It is interesting to note that for all the talk of love and peace, the meditation lobby will always be concerned with the self, they meditate for the self, the result is for the self, the grand end result is for the self, its self self self, which in my view is completely against Sikhism, the peace and feelings of bliss that Sikhism talks about, in my view, is to do with giving, sharing, feeling what others are feeling, and empathising, nurturing, etc.

To demonstrate this view, I find the thread set up to celebrate the life of our dear friend and sister quite conspicuous by the absence of any comment from our meditator friends...., what use are all these lovely feelings if they cannot be used to assist Creation?, What use is all the bliss in the world if it cannot be shared, be used to comfort, to empathise?

 

[chazSingh]

Let us be pragmatic for a moment, my argument is simple, there are some of us that see Naam as a something to be in tune with in order to be a better husband, son, father, brother, friend, ie, it is this Naam that gives us the strength and energy to keep giving to Creation, to connect to the whole of Creation in order to give to Creation.

It is interesting to note that for all the talk of love and peace, the meditation lobby will always be concerned with the self, they meditate for the self, the result is for the self, the grand end result is for the self, its self self self, which in my view is completely against Sikhism, the peace and feelings of bliss that Sikhism talks about, in my view, is to do with giving, sharing, feeling what others are feeling, and empathising, nurturing, etc.


To demonstrate this view, I find the thread set up to celebrate the life of our dear friend and sister quite conspicuous by the absence of any comment from our meditator friends...., what use are all these lovely feelings if they cannot be used to assist Creation?, What use is all the bliss in the world if it cannot be shared, be used to comfort, to empathise?

what seems to be your problem is that when you hear the word 'SELF' you take it to mean something 'SELFISH'...to benefit oneself only with no care for anyone else

and on that note you have COMPLETELY missed the point of everything...everything.

TO understand the SELF is the to understand...to KNOW who you really are...where you came from and what place you have amongst the universe and the creator....to KNOW in the deepest Core what creation is...and by KNOWING who YOU ARE....you then know who everyone else is....AND CAN SERVE everyone 100% knowing all is God rather than just 'believeing' or saying to yourself 'all is one' but know KNOWING it truely

you have completely missed the point my friend...

to know who YOU REALLY ARE (not the body that burns away) but the permanent reality that exists within that Body and beyond...through that KNOWLEDGE you will KNOW who your creator is...and actually see GOD working through everything and anything..

knowing the self, does not mean to be selfish lol

you say 'knowing the self' has nothing to do with sikhi or is completely against it...but in the same breath you completely ignore the gurbani laid our in front of you in an earlier post:

He alone is insane, who does not understand himself.
When he understands himself, then he knows the One Lord. ||4||
One who is not intoxicated with the Lord now, shall never be intoxicated.
Says Kabeer, I am imbued with the Lord's Love. ||5||2||

i mean seriously harry ji

 

[Harry Haller]

what seems to be your problem is that when you hear the word 'SELF' you take it to mean something 'SELFISH'...to benefit oneself only with no care for anyone else

I do not follow you around Chazji, so I have no knowledge of how you conduct yourself in your life, or what you give back to Creation, all I have to base my musings on is how you interact on this forum. On this forum, we have had a loss recently, my point remains, the thread set up for us to remember her, to comfort not only each other but also her family, only proves my point, maybe you guys were too busy tripping the light fantastic to contribute.

and on that note you have COMPLETELY missed the point of everything...everything.

that's a lot of everything's... maybe I just do not agree with it

TO understand the SELF is the to understand...to KNOW who you really are...where you came from and what place you have amongst the universe and the creator....to KNOW in the deepest Core what creation is...and by KNOWING who YOU ARE....you then know who everyone else is....AND CAN SERVE everyone 100% knowing all is God rather than just 'believeing' or saying to yourself 'all is one' but know KNOWING it truely

I agree, I have never said otherwise, however, there is a difference between understanding the self, and becoming obsessed by the self.

you have completely missed the point my friend...

not really, for all the talk, my point is what good does it do, you guys cannot even be bothered to take a minute out to write a few lines in memory of the person that practically shaped this forum.

to know who YOU REALLY ARE (not the body that burns away) but the permanent reality that exists within that Body and beyond...through that KNOWLEDGE you will KNOW who your creator is...and actually see GOD working through everything and anything..

actually eh? I will actually see that, well forgive me if I disagree, and just what is permanent reality anyway?

knowing the self, does not mean to be selfish

maybe but being obsessed by the self is another thing

you say 'knowing the self' has nothing to do with sikhi or is completely against it...but in the same breath you completely ignore the gurbani laid our in front of you in an earlier post:

do point out where I said this, I am in complete agreement that knowing the self is one of the most important things a person can do, it is this obsession with this Vedic type spirituality that I find bemusing