What Is Naam?

[gur_meet]

I too have been associated with Narayanjot kaur ji ( she left with a brighter soul) and in correspondence. This was in another forum Universal Mind. We had long discussions.
As to the points raised I submit :

Whats wrong in reading other literature. Even RM permits it. You are objecting to some thing without knowing about it.

Please read my words again. I have written "what ever secrets are attributed in the name of Ram , Rahim ,Quran ,Puran etc were not to be followed."' When we read books and articles or hear other people we have to be careful and not get influenced. Gurbani lays lot of emphasis on Vichar. This has also to be in the light of literature.

Where does the connection with gurbani comes here. You are wrongly understanding these words.
I have not read any Christian literature, nor literature of any other religions. I have only books by Bhai Veer Sing, Bhai Raghubir Singh and other Sikh literature. I do read general books.

Please read gurbani. How much Gurbani talks about Kama ,krodh ,lobh , moh , Ahankar.
Haume is separate. Are not these vikars.

What proselytising ???

Do I have to sit as a culprit in this forum with what ever being written misunderstood. Any writing being shredded and misinterpreted.

I am a Sikh and this is Sikh forum. Also happen to be amritdhari. Is that wrong also.

Sorry.

 

[Harry Haller]

You interpretation of Gurbani differs from mine, thats ok, we are all individuals, however, I object to simran being some sort of accepted bedrock of Sikhsim, in my view it is irrelevant, I also find the notion that we have lived before and that our illnesses in this life are in some way some sort of lesson or have some sort of meaning nothing sort of repulsive. It is new age occult stuff, as correctly categorised by Amazon...

However, your opinion is equally as important, there is just no reason to pass it off as 'the way', it is one way, not the only one.

 

[gur_meet]

Christians and Muslims believe that there is no reincarnation. Whereas in all eastern religions it is an accepted position.

What can be said when you have a strong belief. I only know that, whatever you say , you have been practicing Simran.Your post on Meeting God is an example. Even a vichar kept in mind is simran. In fact simran is incomplete without feeling and vichar being associated with it.

Of course just plain (meaningless) jap (repetition) is not simran.

 

[Harry Haller]

Christians and Muslims believe that there is no reincarnation. Whereas in all eastern religions it is an accepted position.

almost all

 

[Ishna]

Is anyone else slightly amused by the quasi Catholic vs Protestant thing going on lately? Good works vs faith? lol

 

[chazSingh]

Interestingly 'Soul's plan' is categorised in Amazon as



new age>occult

your theory that Vikars are with us from birth is nothing more than a mishmash of Hindu and Christian philosophy. I think if my big sis were here now, she would be horrified by the above, because in your eyes, she handled it wrongly, she was absolutely against meditation and mumbling as a means of getting close to God



secrets? what secrets? Sikhism is so simple the village idiot could understand the basics, it revolves around truth and truthful living.



I am sorry to be quoting my big sis again, but to the end she suffered and she bore it with the biggest dose of Chardi Kala possible, I do not think she would agree that Gurbani views suffering as a medicine, again, this seems an Abrahamic view, rather than a Sikh one.



this is bordering on proselytising....



maybe he just wanted to help people because he saw god in them, its a pretty simple concept

meditation is great....meditation on the life force that exists within you is even greater...and when you start to remember what you have forgotton then simran will be in motion...

Not sure what the 'mumbling' you refer to is though lol

you may not think pain and suffering is a medicine..but gurbani refers to it as such many times. Please support your views on sikhi with actual gurbani ji

god bless

 

[Harry Haller]

you may not think pain and suffering is a medicine..but gurbani refers to it as such many times. Please support your views on sikhi with actual gurbani ji

I think it would be easier for you to support your view that it does first dear Chazji, rather than me support that it does not....... especially as it does so many many times

 

[chazSingh]

I think it would be easier for you to support your view that it does first dear Chazji, rather than me support that it does not....... especially as it does so many many times

Hi harry ji,

Will post some gurbani tomorow when I.m back at my computer. Posting from my phone at the moment.

the gist I get from gurbani is when we have pleasure we forget waheguru...then we may find ourself in the exact opposite and we cry out for waheguru...sometimes the suffering awakens us from our often complacent state during happiness...sometimes it makes us appreciate each precious second in a way that just experiencing happibess could not have done...

in the end the gurmuck realises both are required experiences...and in fact see's them as on and the same (both a gift). The gurmuck having had some experience of both seeks shelter in neither, and now has a new found vision...that of the unchanging, fearless, waheguru.

there was a guy on the radio a couple of months ago...he had been told he has a few months to live...yet in his interview he said its the best thing that ever happened to him...the disease awoke his consciousness...he described his life, his appreciation of everything in a way that hit me deep within...he was so happy. A moment of life lived in a truely awoken state.

 

[Harry Haller]

let us start a new thread on it, I will await your post tomorrow on the thread, back to Naam

 

[gur_meet]

I think it would be easier for you to support your view that it does first dear Chazji, rather than me support that it does not....... especially as it does so many many times

Here are quotes from SGGS ji that suffering ( Dukh) is medicine :

ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
Dhukh Dhaaroo Sukh Rog Bhaeiaa Jaa Sukh Thaam N Hoee ||
Suffering is the medicine, and pleasure the disease, because where there is pleasure, there is no desire for God.

ਤੂੰ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਾ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਾ ਹਉ ਕਰੀ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥
Thoon Karathaa Karanaa Mai Naahee Jaa Ho Karee N Hoee ||1||
You are the Creator Lord; I can do nothing. Even if I try, nothing happens. ||1||

ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੬੯SGGS 469

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਰਤਿਆ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਹੋਇ ॥
Naanak Sifathee Rathiaa Man Than Hariaa Hoe ||
O Nanak, imbued with the Lord's Praise, the mind and body blossom forth, rejuvenated.

ਦੁਖ ਕੀਆ ਅਗੀ ਮਾਰੀਅਹਿ ਭੀ ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥
Dhukh Keeaa Agee Maareeahi Bhee Dhukh Dhaaroo Hoe ||1||
In the fire of pain, the mortals die; but pain is also the cure. ||1||

ਸਾਰੰਗ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ : ਮ : ੧ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੪੦ SGGS 1240

 

[ActsOfGod]

Your post is about Dukh in the world and does Naam induces one to be a change agent. To bring a difference. Let us first with look at this aspect .

I normally avoid talking about myself but let this be one exception. Disease is one kind of suffering one encounters. Long back I wanted to be in medical profession but in reality circumstances had put me in finance field. As from my school days I privately had been studying medical systems, psychology etc. So i started learning about alternative medicine. Ayurveda , nature therapy ,acupressure , magnetic therapy and so many. But found Homeopathy the best so started. Even had registration as a Doctor. Family and friends were coming for medicines .There were other references too. I found some diseases were gone soon some took time and some did not budge at all. People were in pain. So I kept up the learning and came to role of Mind in disease. Gurbani explains that Vikar have role in bringing about Dukh. So then started learning about about Mind-body medicine. Role of meditation in healing. Also as to how disease and other sufferings are a part of our world. The vikars are with us right from the time of birth. We have a personalty then and there . Is there a role of prior births. Gurbani explains ' janam janam ki mann ko mal lagi , kala hova sya ." meaning we have this affliction from prior births too. ( I suggest that you read the Book Soul's Plan by Robert Schwartz to know more about this and to have a better perspective on suffering in the world)

At early stage itself there were some principles of action chosen by me. Of these one was not to follow any dera, baba etc. For this kept in mind guru's direction - "Ram Rahim Puran Qoran anek kahay mut ek na maanyo " meaning what ever secrets are attributed in the name of Ram , Rahim ,Quran ,Puran etc were not to be followed. Next principle was to validate all external thought with gurbani's teachings.

Gurbani views suffering as a medicine. Dukh has potential to become change agent. When do we become more spiritual. Do prayers.
Vikars are a cause of so many problems in this world. The choices exercised by people have source in these. Vikars dominate our minds. These are overpowering. A person with big ego and in anger would only act and behave in anger. When these persons are in power so what happens is what we have been seeing in human history.

Mind is such that it is dominated by thought and feelings.When there is negative then there is a sequence of negative thoughts , judgments , rationalizations , justifications for the action. All these come from the subconscious mind. The store house of our beliefs ,memory and learning.
We are not individuals but a group as well. We are affected by not only individual consciousness but by group consciousness as well. ( Here is where role of sadh sangat comes in. Guruji has made it a transformation agent as well).
And when we have positive feelings and positive thoughts. The actions are accordingly. Gurbani changes the mind. Gurbani brings in our mind touch of Naam .Positive attracts more of positive. Only a positive mind is more nearer to Naam.

I can only picture what Bhai Khanaya ji's stae of mind would be. A quite type of person who had been listening and knowing about gurbani. He understood about oneness. He understood the play of the world. He may not have been efficient as to wield arms in battle.But took seva of serving water. He acted out oneness teaching of gurbani. As was not acting from a state of mind which had vikar of anger or revenge .

Everyone to a seva "jesi o Karaye" -as is how the same is arranged.

I agree. Dukh may be from our prior karma, and whatever Dukh we experience in life is according to Vaheguru's Hukam:

(2nd Pauri, Japji Sahib)
By His Command, some are high and some are low; by His Written Command, pain and pleasure are obtained.

There are truly diseases of the mind like ego, haumai, hankar, etc. These are root causes of ailments which then can manifest in various physical forms.

Agree that the sadh sangat is where transformation happens. It is a well known psychological axiom that a person will change according to the expectations of their peer group (i.e. "who you spend time with is who you become"). Guru Sahib has set up this transformation to happen to the individual by joining the sadh sangat. It's perfect.

AoG

 

[Harry Haller]

Shalok, First Mehl:
XXX
XXX

ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
Prescription for pain sukh disease ਭਇਆ or happy tami.
Ḏukẖ ḏārū sukẖ rog bẖa ▫ i ▫ ā jā sukẖ ṯām na ho ▫ ī.
Suffering is the medicine, and pleasure the disease, because where there is pleasure, there is no desire for God.
Tami = Then.
(O Lord! your wonderful nature) crisis (beings diseases) treatment (becomes), and security (for them) pain, (for). But if the (real spiritual) joy (life) to get the (pain) does not.

I do not thou be held hau Curry 1.
I do not stay hau 1.
Ŧūʼn karṯā karṇā mai nāhī jā ha ▫ o karī na ho ▫ ī. | | 1 | |
You are the Creator Lord; I can do nothing. Even if I try, nothing happens. | | 1 | |
= Karanahara faced. No I = I do not, I have not found any. Take hau = hau I say, if I feel a certain sense sitting. Na = not phabada, it phabadi 1.
O Lord! You are karanahara Creator (you do you understand these mysteries), my ability is not (that I could not understand). If I understand ourselves do (ie, deposited if I begin to think that I can understand your secret) if not phabadi 1.

ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ kudarati came .
ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ kudarati came.
Balihārī kuḏraṯ vasi ▫ ā.
I am a sacrifice to Your almighty creative power which is pervading everywhere.
xxx
Oh, the power of nature Creator! I have called thee,

Your eventually go lakhia 1. rahau .
You will end lakhia 1. Rahau.
Ŧerā anṯ na jā ▫ ī lakẖi ▫ ā. | | 1 | | rahā ▫ o.
Your limits cannot be known. | | 1 | | Pause | |
.1.,
your end can not be found .1. Rahau.

ਜਾਤਿ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਤਾ ਅਕਲ ਕਲਾ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ॥
Race meh jot jot meh wisdom bharapuri art display.
Jāṯ mėh joṯ joṯ mėh jāṯā akal kalā bẖarpūr rahi ▫ ā.
Your Light is in Your creatures, and Your creatures are in Your Light; Your almighty power is pervading everywhere.
Race = creation. Jot = God's Noor. Jot meh = All jotiam, in all beings. = Is seen, is displayed. Brains = gross. Art = deficit Section. Brains = the different pieces of art, one-Ras perfect Lord.
creation is your male control in the same light in all beings, you, of all places - juices are extensive.

ਤੂੰ ਸਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸੁਆਲ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਉ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਤੀ ਸੋ ਪਾਰਿ ਪਇਆ ॥
You are a true Sahib siphati sualhiu Jin Park paia sleep.
Ŧūʼn sacẖā sāhib sifaṯ su ▫ āliha ▫ o jin kīṯī so pār pa ▫ i ▫ ā.
You are the True Lord and Master; Your Praise is so beautiful. One who sings it, is carried across.
Sualiu = beautiful, beautiful. Jin = who (praise you).,
O Lord! You remain forever Thiru, your beautiful vadiaiam. Who sang your praise, he went to sea world.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੀਆ ਬਾਤਾ ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਣਾ ਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ॥੨॥
Kaho Nanak Kia Batam kichh Su help put 2 display.
Kaho Nānak karṯe kī ▫ ā bāṯā jo kicẖẖ karṇā so kar rahi ▫ ā. | | 2 | |
Nanak speaks the stories of the Creator Lord; whatever He is to do, He does. | | 2 | |
Nanak = O Nanak! Kaho Kia Batam = Creator's words, 2.,
O Nanak! (You) Creator allows praise, (and say) Lord who understands he is a good (ie, does not interfere with any of his works) .2.

The trouble with relying on english translations is that you are relying on the translators interpretation of the shabad, also, one liners can be misleading so it is the terms of service that the full shabad be quoted, I have quoted with a quite bad translation of the teeka, however, even given the vagueness of the teeka in english, it is clear that it actually makes more sense than the translation itself.

The translation itself, in my view, also fails the litmus test of Sikhism, because according to this quote, Sikhs should not indulge in any pleasure whatsoever, and should search out suffering, rather than, in my view, view both pain and pleasure with equal acceptance and as Hukam.

Naam, in my view is this acceptance and ties in well with consonance and being in step with the universe, and ultimately aligning with Creation, nature and the order of the world.

 

[Harry Haller]

सलोक महला १ ॥
Salok mėhlā 1.
Shalok, First Mehl:
xxx
XXX

ਦੁਖ ਵਿਚਿ ਜੰਮਣੁ ਦੁਖਿ ਮਰਣੁ ਦੁਖਿ ਵਰਤਣੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥
दुख विचि जमणु दुखि मरणु दुखि वरतणु संसारि ॥
Ḏukẖ vicẖ jamaṇ ḏukẖ maraṇ ḏukẖ varṯaṇ sansār.
In pain, we are born; in pain, we die. In pain, we deal with the world.
ਦੁਖਿ = ਦੁੱਖ ਵਿਚ। ਵਰਤਣੁ = ਵਰਤਣਾ, ਕਾਰ-ਵਿਹਾਰ। ਸੰਸਾਰਿ = ਸੰਸਾਰ ਵਿਚ।
ਜੀਵ ਦਾ ਜਨਮ ਦੁੱਖ ਵਿਚ ਤੇ ਮੌਤ ਭੀ ਦੁੱਖ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਜਨਮ ਤੋਂ ਮਰਨ ਤਕ ਸਾਰੀ ਉਮਰ ਜੀਵ ਦੁੱਖ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਫਸਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ) ਦੁੱਖ ਵਿਚ (ਗ੍ਰਸਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੀ) ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਸਾਰਾ ਕਾਰ-ਵਿਹਾਰ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਦੁਖੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਅਗੈ ਆਖੀਐ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਪੁਕਾਰ ॥
दुखु दुखु अगै आखीऐ पड़्हि पड़्हि करहि पुकार ॥
Ḏukẖ ḏukẖ agai ākẖī▫ai paṛĥ paṛĥ karahi pukār.
Hereafter, there is said to be pain, only pain; the more the mortals read, the more they cry out.
ਅਗੈ = ਅੱਗੇ ਅੱਗੇ, ਸਾਹਮਣੇ, ਜਿਉਂ ਜਿਉਂ ਦਿਨ ਗੁਜ਼ਰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ = ਪੜ੍ਹ ਕੇ। ਕਰਹਿ ਪੁਕਾਰ = ਪੁਕਾਰ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਵਿਲਕਦੇ ਹਨ।
(ਵਿੱਦਿਆ) ਪੜ੍ਹ ਪੜ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਭੀ (ਜੀਵ) ਵਿਲਕਦੇ ਹੀ ਹਨ, (ਜੋ ਕੁਝ) ਸਾਹਮਣੇ (ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ) ਦੁੱਖ ਹੀ ਦੁੱਖ ਕਿਹਾ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਦੁਖ ਕੀਆ ਪੰਡਾ ਖੁਲ੍ਹ੍ਹੀਆ ਸੁਖੁ ਨ ਨਿਕਲਿਓ ਕੋਇ ॥
दुख कीआ पंडा खुल्हीआ सुखु न निकलिओ कोइ ॥
Ḏukẖ kī▫ā pandā kẖulĥī▫ā sukẖ na nikli▫o ko▫e.
The packages of pain are untied, but peace does not emerge.
xxx
(ਜੀਵ ਦੇ ਭਾਗਾਂ ਨੂੰ) ਦੁੱਖਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ (ਮਾਨੋ) ਪੰਡਾਂ ਖੁਲ੍ਹੀਆਂ ਹੋਈਆਂ ਹਨ, (ਇਸ ਦੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਭੀ ਉੱਦਮ ਵਿਚੋਂ) ਕੋਈ ਸੁਖ ਨਹੀਂ ਨਿਕਲਦਾ;

ਦੁਖ ਵਿਚਿ ਜੀਉ ਜਲਾਇਆ ਦੁਖੀਆ ਚਲਿਆ ਰੋਇ ॥
दुख विचि जीउ जलाइआ दुखीआ चलिआ रोइ ॥
Ḏukẖ vicẖ jī▫o jalā▫i▫ā ḏukẖī▫ā cẖali▫ā ro▫e.
In pain, the soul burns; in pain, it departs weeping and wailing.
xxx
(ਸਾਰੀ ਉਮਰ) ਦੁੱਖਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਜਿੰਦ ਸਾੜਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ (ਆਖ਼ਰ) ਦੁੱਖਾਂ ਦਾ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਰੋਂਦਾ ਹੀ (ਇਥੋਂ) ਤੁਰ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਰਤਿਆ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਹੋਇ ॥
नानक सिफती रतिआ मनु तनु हरिआ होइ ॥
Nānak sifṯī raṯi▫ā man ṯan hari▫ā ho▫e.
O Nanak, imbued with the Lord's Praise, the mind and body blossom forth, rejuvenated.
ਹਰਿਆ = ਹਰਾ, ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ ਵਾਲਾ।
ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਵਿਚ ਰੰਗੇ ਜਾਈਏ ਤਾਂ ਮਨ ਤਨ ਹਰੇ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ।

ਦੁਖ ਕੀਆ ਅਗੀ ਮਾਰੀਅਹਿ ਭੀ ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥
दुख कीआ अगी मारीअहि भी दुखु दारू होइ ॥१॥
Ḏukẖ kī▫ā agī mārī▫ah bẖī ḏukẖ ḏārū ho▫e. ||1||
In the fire of pain, the mortals die; but pain is also the cure. ||1||
ਅਗੀ = ਅੱਗਾਂ ਨਾਲ। ਮਾਰੀਅਹਿ = ਮਾਰੀਦੇ ਹਨ ॥੧॥
ਜੀਵ ਦੁੱਖਾਂ ਦੇ ਸਾੜਿਆਂ ਨਾਲ (ਆਤਮਕ ਮੌਤ) ਮਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਪਰ ਫਿਰ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਇਲਾਜ ਭੀ ਦੁੱਖ ਹੀ ਹੈ। (ਸਵੇਰੇ ਮੰਜੇ ਤੇ ਸੁਖ ਵਿਚ ਸੁੱਤਾ ਰਹੇ ਤਾਂ ਇਹ ਦੁੱਖ ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ; ਪਰ ਜੇ ਸਵੇਰੇ ਉਠਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਕਸਰਤ ਆਦਿਕ ਕਸ਼ਟ ਉਠਾਏ ਤਾਂ ਉਹ ਦੁੱਖ ਸੁਖਦਾਈ ਬਣਦਾ ਹੈ) ॥੧॥

if you read this in full, it is patently obvious this shabad is talking about the consequences of ones actions and how consequences are a good teacher, it has nothing to do with embracing pain or suffering, and certainly does not apply to those who are ill through no fault of their own, it is common sense to accept that you reap what you sow, the issue I have is with all suffering being a medicine, as this includes rape victims, cancer victims, those caught in natural disasters, etc etc.

The latter is, in my view, Vedic, the former Sikh.

 

[ActsOfGod]

if you read this in full, it is patently obvious this shabad is talking about the consequences of ones actions and how consequences are a good teacher, it has nothing to do with embracing pain or suffering, and certainly does not apply to those who are ill through no fault of their own, it is common sense to accept that you reap what you sow, the issue I have is with all suffering being a medicine, as this includes rape victims, cancer victims, those caught in natural disasters, etc etc.

The latter is, in my view, Vedic, the former Sikh.

When things are going great in his life (everything's successful), a man tends to party. When things don't go so well, then man tends to ponder. It is when he stops to ponder that he starts to realize things.

Thus, the analogy of suffering being a medicine.

It is certainly not in Sikh philosophy to desire to be miserable and to seek out suffering. Rather, to bear it with the same equipoise as one should bear pleasure, i.e. both pain and pleasure are illusions of the mind. As a Sikh, recognize this illusion and transcend it, don't be caught in it. (This ability of the mind to make this discernment out of seemingly non-events has been proven and demonstrated by modern therapy techniques).

So, if everything is in our mind, what is real?

And that's when our path in Sikhi begins.

AoG

 

[Sherdil]

सलोक महला १ ॥
Salok mėhlā 1.
Shalok, First Mehl:
xxx
XXX

ਦੁਖ ਵਿਚਿ ਜੰਮਣੁ ਦੁਖਿ ਮਰਣੁ ਦੁਖਿ ਵਰਤਣੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥
दुख विचि जमणु दुखि मरणु दुखि वरतणु संसारि ॥
Ḏukẖ vicẖ jamaṇ ḏukẖ maraṇ ḏukẖ varṯaṇ sansār.
In pain, we are born; in pain, we die. In pain, we deal with the world.
ਦੁਖਿ = ਦੁੱਖ ਵਿਚ। ਵਰਤਣੁ = ਵਰਤਣਾ, ਕਾਰ-ਵਿਹਾਰ। ਸੰਸਾਰਿ = ਸੰਸਾਰ ਵਿਚ।
ਜੀਵ ਦਾ ਜਨਮ ਦੁੱਖ ਵਿਚ ਤੇ ਮੌਤ ਭੀ ਦੁੱਖ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਜਨਮ ਤੋਂ ਮਰਨ ਤਕ ਸਾਰੀ ਉਮਰ ਜੀਵ ਦੁੱਖ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਫਸਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ) ਦੁੱਖ ਵਿਚ (ਗ੍ਰਸਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੀ) ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਸਾਰਾ ਕਾਰ-ਵਿਹਾਰ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਦੁਖੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਅਗੈ ਆਖੀਐ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਪੁਕਾਰ ॥
दुखु दुखु अगै आखीऐ पड़्हि पड़्हि करहि पुकार ॥
Ḏukẖ ḏukẖ agai ākẖī▫ai paṛĥ paṛĥ karahi pukār.
Hereafter, there is said to be pain, only pain; the more the mortals read, the more they cry out.
ਅਗੈ = ਅੱਗੇ ਅੱਗੇ, ਸਾਹਮਣੇ, ਜਿਉਂ ਜਿਉਂ ਦਿਨ ਗੁਜ਼ਰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ = ਪੜ੍ਹ ਕੇ। ਕਰਹਿ ਪੁਕਾਰ = ਪੁਕਾਰ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਵਿਲਕਦੇ ਹਨ।
(ਵਿੱਦਿਆ) ਪੜ੍ਹ ਪੜ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਭੀ (ਜੀਵ) ਵਿਲਕਦੇ ਹੀ ਹਨ, (ਜੋ ਕੁਝ) ਸਾਹਮਣੇ (ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ) ਦੁੱਖ ਹੀ ਦੁੱਖ ਕਿਹਾ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਦੁਖ ਕੀਆ ਪੰਡਾ ਖੁਲ੍ਹ੍ਹੀਆ ਸੁਖੁ ਨ ਨਿਕਲਿਓ ਕੋਇ ॥
दुख कीआ पंडा खुल्हीआ सुखु न निकलिओ कोइ ॥
Ḏukẖ kī▫ā pandā kẖulĥī▫ā sukẖ na nikli▫o ko▫e.
The packages of pain are untied, but peace does not emerge.
xxx
(ਜੀਵ ਦੇ ਭਾਗਾਂ ਨੂੰ) ਦੁੱਖਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ (ਮਾਨੋ) ਪੰਡਾਂ ਖੁਲ੍ਹੀਆਂ ਹੋਈਆਂ ਹਨ, (ਇਸ ਦੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਭੀ ਉੱਦਮ ਵਿਚੋਂ) ਕੋਈ ਸੁਖ ਨਹੀਂ ਨਿਕਲਦਾ;

ਦੁਖ ਵਿਚਿ ਜੀਉ ਜਲਾਇਆ ਦੁਖੀਆ ਚਲਿਆ ਰੋਇ ॥
दुख विचि जीउ जलाइआ दुखीआ चलिआ रोइ ॥
Ḏukẖ vicẖ jī▫o jalā▫i▫ā ḏukẖī▫ā cẖali▫ā ro▫e.
In pain, the soul burns; in pain, it departs weeping and wailing.
xxx
(ਸਾਰੀ ਉਮਰ) ਦੁੱਖਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਜਿੰਦ ਸਾੜਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ (ਆਖ਼ਰ) ਦੁੱਖਾਂ ਦਾ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਰੋਂਦਾ ਹੀ (ਇਥੋਂ) ਤੁਰ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਰਤਿਆ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਹੋਇ ॥
नानक सिफती रतिआ मनु तनु हरिआ होइ ॥
Nānak sifṯī raṯi▫ā man ṯan hari▫ā ho▫e.
O Nanak, imbued with the Lord's Praise, the mind and body blossom forth, rejuvenated.
ਹਰਿਆ = ਹਰਾ, ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ ਵਾਲਾ।
ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਵਿਚ ਰੰਗੇ ਜਾਈਏ ਤਾਂ ਮਨ ਤਨ ਹਰੇ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ।

ਦੁਖ ਕੀਆ ਅਗੀ ਮਾਰੀਅਹਿ ਭੀ ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥
दुख कीआ अगी मारीअहि भी दुखु दारू होइ ॥१॥
Ḏukẖ kī▫ā agī mārī▫ah bẖī ḏukẖ ḏārū ho▫e. ||1||
In the fire of pain, the mortals die; but pain is also the cure. ||1||
ਅਗੀ = ਅੱਗਾਂ ਨਾਲ। ਮਾਰੀਅਹਿ = ਮਾਰੀਦੇ ਹਨ ॥੧॥
ਜੀਵ ਦੁੱਖਾਂ ਦੇ ਸਾੜਿਆਂ ਨਾਲ (ਆਤਮਕ ਮੌਤ) ਮਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਪਰ ਫਿਰ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਇਲਾਜ ਭੀ ਦੁੱਖ ਹੀ ਹੈ। (ਸਵੇਰੇ ਮੰਜੇ ਤੇ ਸੁਖ ਵਿਚ ਸੁੱਤਾ ਰਹੇ ਤਾਂ ਇਹ ਦੁੱਖ ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ; ਪਰ ਜੇ ਸਵੇਰੇ ਉਠਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਕਸਰਤ ਆਦਿਕ ਕਸ਼ਟ ਉਠਾਏ ਤਾਂ ਉਹ ਦੁੱਖ ਸੁਖਦਾਈ ਬਣਦਾ ਹੈ) ॥੧॥

In Gurbani and in Sufi literature, the pain that is being discussed results from separation from the Husband Lord. We are all soul-brides that have been separated from our Husband Lord. When we are far from the divine, we feel pain. When we come close to the divine, our pain is relieved.

 

[chazSingh]

When things are going great in his life (everything's successful), a man tends to party. When things don't go so well, then man tends to ponder. It is when he stops to ponder that he starts to realize things.

Thus, the analogy of suffering being a medicine.

It is certainly not in Sikh philosophy to desire to be miserable and to seek out suffering. Rather, to bear it with the same equipoise as one should bear pleasure, i.e. both pain and pleasure are illusions of the mind. As a Sikh, recognize this illusion and transcend it, don't be caught in it. (This ability of the mind to make this discernment out of seemingly non-events has been proven and demonstrated by modern therapy techniques).

So, if everything is in our mind, what is real?

And that's when our path in Sikhi begins.

AoG

yes, no one should seek pain..

and like you said...and i can agree myself also, that it is through difficult times mentally physically that i did the most pondering...which started of everything more me...now i see the harder times as a gift, a blessing.

the joy now is that i have a new found link/connection/100% beleif based on experience that Waheguru is forever with me...so whether i come into a seemingly good or bad experience of life...i know ii have Him with me...and i meditate/contemplate on Him through both suffering and pleasure

 

[chazSingh]

In Gurbani and in Sufi literature, the pain that is being discussed results from separation from the Husband Lord. We are all soul-brides that have been separated from our Husband Lord. When we are far from the divine, we feel pain. When we come close to the divine, our pain is relieved.

when we are far from the divine, we are entangled in life with the 5 thieves...that exists in our mental state...

they are the root cause of a huge proportion of our suffering....which manifests in our physical lives.

 

[gur_meet]

yes, no one should seek pain..

and like you said...and i can agree myself also, that it is through difficult times mentally physically that i did the most pondering...which started of everything more me...now i see the harder times as a gift, a blessing.

the joy now is that i have a new found link/connection/100% beleif based on experience that Waheguru is forever with me...so whether i come into a seemingly good or bad experience of life...i know ii have Him with me...and i meditate/contemplate on Him through both suffering and pleasure

Dukh as medicine. It brings acceptance and humility when one surrenders before HIM. . The acceptance that all is HIS Hukam. In whole creation Hukam is prevailing.The feeling of HIS presence.

 

[Luckysingh]

yes, no one should seek pain..

and like you said...and i can agree myself also, that it is through difficult times mentally physically that i did the most pondering...which started of everything more me...now i see the harder times as a gift, a blessing.

the joy now is that i have a new found link/connection/100% beleif based on experience that Waheguru is forever with me...so whether i come into a seemingly good or bad experience of life...i know ii have Him with me...and i meditate/contemplate on Him through both suffering and pleasure

The gift, the blesssing.... it's all what this 'experience' is.
HE is the creator and not the creation...... In the sense that the creation is the ever changing experience of him. The Lord God doesn't change himself, only the experiences of his creation change.

Once you learn to accept every dukh and sukh as experience, then you begin to stay grounded in the more stable neutral position.
Again, practicing this stability comes easier with practice of inner stability and stillness......simran!

Once a sikh truly offers his head to guru and surrenders his ego, then you can throw anything in the disguises of pain,dukh,sukh and joy.... but it shall not affect him.
What happens at this stage is that he awakens to the huge difference in Divine love and the worldy love that we know or are aware of amongst loved ones.

You only have to experience a hint of this Divine love to begin to understand that the love we thought we knew about is actually a small fraction, miles and miles away from the True divine love

 

[Ishna]

This excellent article by Karminder Singh Dhillon explains very nicely Naam and Simran:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/41762-simran-and-sikhi-karminder-singh-dhillon.html

Please read and share your thoughts on the article with specific reference to Naam.