Why Is Sikhism The True Religion?

[Kairos]

I find it remarkable how people come here to proclaim that theirs' is the the only true faith

you might notice, that its not ME to say Jesus Christ is the only way to God the father, but its actually the bible. I just confess what i believe, namely that what the bible tells its true.

and how they then engage in circular reasoning to justify their beliefs...like Bible prophecy...interesting how these "prophecies" were written after the actual events occurred!

what is your evidence to make this claim ?

Or trying to prove the integrity of something using the thing to be proved as the source of its own proof....

I dont need the bible to show, its related facts are true, are history. Just examine the archaeological and extra biblical historic record, and you will understand, that the bible is absolutely trustworthy.

Archeology proves the historicity of the bible is true

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/bib...the-historicity-of-the-bible-is-true-t190.htm

Then they blatantly ignore the fact that over time, bits have been added, taken away, translated and edited upteen times etc etc....need I go on???

Dead Sea Scrolls exhibit testifies the Bible is true

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/bib...-exhibit-testifies-the-bible-is-true-t282.htm

Are the bible translations accurate and trustworthy ?

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/bib...ranslations-accurate-and-trustworthy-t258.htm

If someone is on a particular path and are happy there, then that's fine. But don't try and sell it as the true way to others ....

this is a section of interfaith dialogues. Than you should expect, that people of other faiths/beliefs come, and present, what they believe in. If you do not like to know my faith better, than nobody is obliging you to stay here at this thread.

and if you do, then don't be surprised if you get some robust challenges!

I am more than happy to elucidate my faith to anyone, which is truly interested, without prejudgement, with the only goal to condemn my faith, and the bible, and this , in a disrespectful manner.

 

[spnadmin]

Seeker9

Yes when one proclaims the "truth" in any forum one should expect challenges from skeptics and nonbelievers. When one proclaims a Christian "truth" on a Sikh forum one should expect challenges from Sikhs. Your critique of a circular argument is a good one. And it to this point serves as a logical refutation of all we have read of the Christian truth on this thread.

I would also like to add that the bafflement expressed so far by you, Tejwant ji, ugsbay ji, and me in no way suggest we did not get the idea that the Christian God punishes "sin" as he/Christians define it.

Karios ji, We get it. We can read. We are asking rather, Why should anyone accept the truth or the "love" of a violent parent or spouse who is given to exacting tribute in the most angry ways? Why pledge one's trust in a protector and supporter who is emotionally unstable and given to mood swings? Likewise why choose such a god? An all powerful creator, supporter, protector, it seems, would be beyond emotional excesses, and mood swings.

And in knowing His Own omnipotence completely then why would he punish sin? He would understand the limitations of His Creation, and offer something other than revenge and spiteful retribution when his wishes were not carried out.

And insofar as He is the Creator of Everything, how could His wishes not be carried out? Why would He be angry at all? What happens is all His Will. Nothing happens outside of that. If anything did happen outside of the oribt if His Omnipotence, He would not be Omnipotent. And He would be wasting time getting angry at Himself.

Note: I use He to equal Ik Oankaar: One doer of everything, who is eternal truth/reality, who is Self-existent and complete within Himself, who is without hatred or enmity, because he has no need for hatred nor enmity, who is beyond time , is formless and is self-created. He has no need to punish sin.

 

[Kairos]

Why should anyone accept the truth or the "love" of a violent parent or spouse who is given to exacting tribute in the most angry ways?

the God i know, is mercyful, as written :

Isajah 55:6 Seek the Lord while he makes himself available; 16
call to him while he is nearby!
55:7 The wicked need to abandon their lifestyle 17
and sinful people their plans. 18
They should return 19 to the Lord, and he will show mercy to them, 20
and to their God, for he will freely forgive them. 21
55:8 “Indeed, 22 my plans 23 are not like 24 your plans,
and my deeds 25 are not like 26 your deeds,
55:9 for just as the sky 27 is higher than the earth,
so my deeds 28 are superior to 29 your deeds
and my plans 30 superior to your plans.

If God is love, he cannot accept desctructive, egoistic, sinful, violent and criminal behavior. God's anger, and God's love , are truly two sides of the same medal. Also, if God truly loves us, he cannot either admit, that his love is dismissed and rejected. Otherwise, he would accept that his wish to give us a fullfilled and happy life, would be a failure , and not be accomplished. God truly suffers, when is love is being rejected. Gods love is also expressed in the prophecy in the book of jesaja, about the coming of the messiah, which would take upon him the suffering of all of us ( this was written 700bC) :

53:1 Who would have believed 1 what we 2 just heard? 3
When 4 was the Lord’s power 5 revealed through him?
53:2 He sprouted up like a twig before God, 6
like a root out of parched soil; 7
he had no stately form or majesty that might catch our attention, 8
no special appearance that we should want to follow him. 9
53:3 He was despised and rejected by people, 10
one who experienced pain and was acquainted with illness;
people hid their faces from him; 11
he was despised, and we considered him insignificant. 12
53:4 But he lifted up our illnesses,
he carried our pain; 13
even though we thought he was being punished,
attacked by God, and afflicted for something he had done. 14
53:5 He was wounded because of 15 our rebellious deeds,
crushed because of our sins;
he endured punishment that made us well; 16
because of his wounds we have been healed. 17
53:6 All of us had wandered off like sheep;
each of us had strayed off on his own path,
but the Lord caused the sin of all of us to attack him. 18
53:7 He was treated harshly and afflicted, 19
but he did not even open his mouth.
Like a lamb led to the slaughtering block,
like a sheep silent before her shearers,
he did not even open his mouth. 20
53:8 He was led away after an unjust trial 21 –
but who even cared? 22
Indeed, he was cut off from the land of the living; 23
because of the rebellion of his own 24 people he was wounded.
53:9 They intended to bury him with criminals, 25
but he ended up in a rich man’s tomb, 26
because 27 he had committed no violent deeds,
nor had he spoken deceitfully.
53:10 Though the Lord desired to crush him and make him ill,
once restitution is made, 28
he will see descendants and enjoy long life, 29
and the Lord’s purpose will be accomplished through him.
53:11 Having suffered, he will reflect on his work,
he will be satisfied when he understands what he has done. 30
“My servant 31 will acquit many, 32
for he carried their sins. 33
53:12 So I will assign him a portion with the multitudes, 34
he will divide the spoils of victory with the powerful, 35
because he willingly submitted 36 to death
and was numbered with the rebels,
when he lifted up the sin of many
and intervened 37 on behalf of the rebels.”

Likewise why choose this god?

I choose him, because i believe the God of the bible is the ONLY true living God.

What happens is all His Will.

Of course not. God has given us a free will. So we can act in accordance with his will, or against it. Love is only possible, if true free will and freedom exists. Otherwise, we would act like robots, programmed to do always the will of God.

Nothing happens outside of that. If anything did, He would not be Omnipotent. And would be wasting time getting angry at Himself.

God has choosen freely to give up until a certain point his omnipotence, and gave us free will. He respects it, to make true love possible.

 

[spnadmin]

Kairos ji

you said [If God is love, he cannot accept desctructive, egoistic, sinful, violent and criminal behavior. God's anger, and God's love , are truly two sides of the same medal. Also, if God truly loves us, he cannot either admit, that his love is dismissed and rejected. Otherwise, he would accept that his wish to give us a fullfilled and happy life, would be a failure , and not be accomplished. God truly suffers, when is love is being rejected. Gods love is also expressed in the prophecy in the book of jesaja, about the coming of the messiah, which would take upon him the suffering of all of us ( this was written 700bC) ]


My observation from the above paragraph is that at least since 700 BC humans have been projecting the syndrome of human emotions, and particularly the syndrome of a love hate relationship, which comes from a human fear of dependency and helplessness, onto an image of God. Thus it is God who is made by humans to seem as if he suffers from ambivalence, in spite of the fact that an Omnipotent God would not suffer at all. Why would an Omnipotent Power suffer? Some Sikhs scholars would explain the above paragraph as evidence of the essential duality of the Human/God connection in Christianity, Judaism, Islam and other Abrahamic religions. In that view, humans make God into their image. Since these are patriarchal societies they even make God into a powerful and violent father figure who has a need to impose his will and seek retribution when his will is defied. In the most barbaric ways.

If God is omnipotent, neither male nor female, having no beginning nor end, what need is there for all this drama? If God's anger and love are two sides of the same coin, as you say, then he is a creature of his own emotions. If God is affected adversely by the rejection of his love, then he is not offering love but emotional blackmail. It is hard for a Sikh to see any divinity in the psychological profile you have just presented.

The question of free will is a good one. What kind of free will is it that humans have if they can expect retribution if they use it and don't come up with the "right" answer according to an emotionally needy god? Rather what you have portrayed is what we now diagnose as a narcissistic personality disorder. I know that Christianity can do better than that.

 

[Kairos]

My observation from the above paragraph is that at least since 700 BC humans have been projecting the syndrome of human emotions, and particularly the syndrome of a love hate relationship, which comes from a human fear of dependency and helplessness, onto an image of God. Thus it is God who is made by humans to seem as if he suffers from ambivalence, in spite of the fact that an Omnipotent God would not suffer at all.

http://www.fallenandflawed.com/can-god-suffer/

The Difficult Doctrine That Should Never Be Neglected

To be perfectly honest, the doctrine of God’s impassibility is a difficult doctrine. But you shouldn’t ignore it. A lot hinges on this doctrine.

First, let’s define impassibility.

To say that God is impassible is to say that God is without passion. In the words of the Westminster Confession of Faith, God is “without body, parts, or passions, immutable.”

What is passion? Passion can be described any powerful feeling or emotion, like joy, grief, hatred or regret.

According to Clark Pinnock, a passionate “God is not cool and collected but is deeply involved and can be wounded.”

But there are serious problems if this is true of God.

Why We Don’t Want God to Be Passionate

Imagine: God in one hour pulled in one million different directions by things people say and do. If this were true, then God would not be in control of his own mind or moods.

Furthermore, if this were true, what guarantee do we have that God’s love will be constant?

God’s stability was Jeremiah’s main argument for trusting in God’s faithfulness. And in Malachi 3:6 God says, “I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.”

God’s consistency should encourage and satisfy us. Because He is always in love with the obedient and always at odds with the wicked, we will never doubt what he thinks about us.

However, nothing in the world can inflict misery or pain on God. Let me show you what I mean.

Biblically, God Can’t Suffer

The Bible teaches that God is the source and will behind all of his affections. All action in the universe springs ultimately from God.

“He is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.” Acts 17:25

Passion involves a desire for what is lacking. God lacks nothing. God is an all perfect being, thus lacks nothing and craves nothing.

But this does not mean that he doesn’t have feelings.

Does This Doctrine Diminish God’s Love?

God has feelings. The Bible clearly teaches this. For example, God’s spirit is grieved at sin. He hates evil. And God’s jealousy burns with anger against sin.

However, Philip Johnson argues, even though God has these feelings, he’s not a slave to fits of melancholy or bouts of rage:

…Scripture often stresses the constancy of God’s love, the infiniteness of his mercies, the certainty of His promises, the unchangeableness of His mind, and the lack of any fluctuation in His perfections.

James 1:17 said, God “does not change like shifting shadows.” On the other hand, our feelings toward evil, love, faith, change.

Which brings me to my next point.

Never Make This Serious Mistake About God

Whether you like it or not, God is not like you. The Bible says:

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. Isaiah 55:8

Furthermore, you must recognize that you and I cannot fully understand God without adjusting our language. That’s why in order to understand God, we use human language.

We can learn much from figures of speech, nevertheless God still remains inscrutable. So, what are we to think when God became so angry at Israel that he threatened to wipe the nation out and cancel the covenant with Abraham?

What we can’t do is make God look like an ogre prone to temper tantrums. It’s a serious mistake to project our passions onto God.

God is not like men.

Nor can we say that God is removed or aloof. As Johnson explains, it takes a personal God to make this kind of threat.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Christian GOD that Kairos serves:

"I am the LORD, your GOD, ...... And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." (Leviticus 26:13,29)

 

[Kairos]

A key distinctive feature of Sikhism is a non-anthropomorphic concept of God, to the extent that one can interpret God as the Universe itself (pantheism).

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/ast...ce-that-the-universe-had-a-beginning-t199.htm

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_the_Bi...ngularity_where_did_the_singularity_come_from

Back in the late '60s and early '70s, when men first walked upon the moon, "three British astrophysicists, Steven Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose turned their attention to the Theory of Relativity and its implications regarding our notions of time. In 1968 and 1970, they published papers in which they extended Einstein's Theory of General Relativity to include measurements of time and space.1, 2 According to their calculations, time and space had a finite beginning that corresponded to the origin of matter and energy."3 The singularity didn't appear in space; rather, space began inside of the singularity. Prior to the singularity, nothing existed, not space, time, matter, or energy - nothing. So where and in what did the singularity appear if not in space? We don't know.

Stephen Hawking writes, “Almost everyone now believes that the universe, and time itself, had a beginning at the Big Bang.


If God would be the universe, and the universe had a absolute beginning, then God would have had a absolute beginning with the Big Bang.

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its
existence.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of its
existence. that cause was God.

God must therefore be a separate entity of the universe. Pantheismus must therefore be false.

 

[spnadmin]

Curiously, suddenly, Kairos ji

You give many references in your reply to me as to why God cannot be an tangle of contradictory emotions. Yet there are many quotations from this Bible in which this god is full of emotions. And, you have not replied to a key point. When god is portrayed as emotional these are human emotions. Are not humans projecting their own emotional natures on god in the Bible? Why would an emotional god be worthy of trust? Why would a god who created everything need to punish sin? Why would such a god need anything? The all powerful has everything.

You evaded another issue. How does this god's gift of free will as you understand free will provide opportunities to prove our love for that god? Why would the loss of love be a concern for an omnipotent being. In Gurbani we have a God who "keeps on giving" in spite of the moral failings of humans, and we keep taking as there can be no way to repay the all powerful who is the source of everything. This love is unconditional.

How does an argument from astrophysics answer my questions? Or have you switched gears?

 

[Seeker9]

you might notice, that its not ME to say Jesus Christ is the only way to God the father, but its actually the bible. I just confess what i believe, namely that what the bible tells its true.

So you are using the Bible as the source of its own proof which is my point below. Look back on this thread and see if you can find lots of quotes from our Sikh scriptures. You won't because we can discuss on logic and theology without endless quotes and links to websites. I challenge you to do the same and respond to our queries without linking to a website or wothout quoting from The Bible


what is your evidence to make this claim ?

How much of the Bible was written at the time the events occurred? The supposed eye witness accounts in The Gospels were written decades after Christ's crucifixtion. My idea of a prophesy is something that is prophesised before the event occurs and not after.


I dont need the bible to show, its related facts are true, are history. Just examine the archaeological and extra biblical historic record, and you will understand, that the bible is absolutely trustworthy.

History confirms some of the key players, locations and events but it most certainly does not confirm everything in the Bible. Where is the historical eveidence for Eden and Adam & Eve? Where is the historical evidence for Moses parting the Red Sea? Where is the historical evidence for David and Goliath?? Need I go on??


Archeology proves the historicity of the bible is true

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/bib...the-historicity-of-the-bible-is-true-t190.htm



Dead Sea Scrolls exhibit testifies the Bible is true

Rubbish! Dead Se Scrolls contradict the New testament!

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/bib...-exhibit-testifies-the-bible-is-true-t282.htm

Are the bible translations accurate and trustworthy ?

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/bib...ranslations-accurate-and-trustworthy-t258.htm



this is a section of interfaith dialogues. Than you should expect, that people of other faiths/beliefs come, and present, what they believe in. If you do not like to know my faith better, than nobody is obliging you to stay here at this thread.

As Tejwant Singh Ji has stated quite plainly on a number of occassions, it is indeed for sharing and learning from each other. But it is not for saying my path is better than yours which is what you and others have been shovelling out in this forum

Nobody is obliging us to sit here and do nothing in response.



I am more than happy to elucidate my faith to anyone, which is truly interested, without prejudgement, with the only goal to condemn my faith, and the bible, and this , in a disrespectful manner.

We are raising legitimate queries which you have consistently failed to answer convincingly. Again, I challenge you to respond without recourse to quotations and web links

 

[Lee]

i don't think so. The text is clear enough in a way, that there are only two possibilities : wheter you believe , Jesus is who he claims to be, or you don't.

Wheter you believe, Jesus Christ is the only way to the father, or he isnt.



we have thousands of manuscripts, which are dated very close to the date of the events. We can compare them. And we can know, we have very accurate translations. So this argument is really not a escape.



there is absolutely no doubt about that. You can use even a interlinear bible, with a direct translation of the greek text to english ;

http://www.biblestudytools.com/interlinear-bible/passage.aspx?q=john+14&t=kjv

Kairos ji,

You don't think so? You don't think that the written word is subject to individual interperation? The sir your thinking must be wrong.

I do not belive that Jesus is the only way to God, I can't I'm Sikh and that is not what our Guru ji says.
Further even a minimum amount of pondering on the issue informs me that people are differant, we do not all think alike, nor are our cultures the same. Logicaly then there are perhaps two main conclusions that we can reach.

God has created differant people and differant cultures yet choosen only one peoples or one cultural practive as the only valid way to God.

Or.

God has created each peoples, each culture and each mindset with way to reach God.

I simply do not belive the first is the act of a loving God, and I belive in a loving God. So the latter must be the better option.

Instead of looking at the diffrances in scripture, and then saying, well this says this and that say that so that must be false and this true.
Look for the simularities and think about why they are there. What are the differances and what are the simularities?

To aid you consider this from a discusion elsewhere about the golden rule:

In Christianity:

"In everything, do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." - Jesus, Matthew 7:12

In Judaism:

"What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole Torah; all the rest is commentary." - Hillel, Talmud, Shabbat 31a

In Islam:

"Not one of you truly believes until you wish for others what you wish for yourself." - Muhammad, Hadith

In the Baha'i Faith:

"Lay not on any soul a load that you would not wish to be laid upon you, and desire not for anyone the things you would not desire for yourself." - Baha'u'llah, Gleanings

In Hinduism:

"This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you." - Mahabharata 5:1517

In Buddhism:

"Treat not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." - Udana-Varga 5.18

In Confucianism:

"One word which sums up the basis of all good conduct... loving kindness. Do not do to others what you do not want done to yourself." - Confucius, Analects 15.23

In Taoism:

"Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." - T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien, 213-218

In Sikhism:

"I am a stranger to no one; and no one is a stranger to me. Indeed, I am a friend to all." - Guru Granth Sahib, pg. 1299

In Unitarianism:

"We affirm and promote respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part." - Unitarian principle

In Native Spirituality:

"We are as much alive as we keep the earth alive." - Chief Dan George

In Zoroastrianism:

"Do not do unto others whatever is injurious to yourself." - Shayast-na-Shayat 13.29

In Jainism:

"One should treat all creatures in the world as one would like to be treated." - Mahavira, Sutrakritanga


Note particularly the top two. 'This is the law' and 'This is the whole of the Torah'

As I say all religious scripture contianes the same kernal of truth, all of the rest is window dressing.

What is this truth then?

There is one God, who created everthing and is all pervading. Because of this God requires us to love each other as we would love God.

It's been said time and time and time agian, in many differant ways. Why many differant ways? Because there are simply many differant people, with differing intelects, attitudes, belifes and POV.

It makes sense of a loving God does it not?

 

[Lee]

In this case, its not your job to tell me, what is , and what is not accepted at this forum. You could learn from me, if you would be open minded, and behave in a respectful manner. Its not the case, therefore, its better you search someone else, you can behave the way you do.

Kairos ji,

Ohhh sir I am bitterly disapointed by this deception of yours, and decepetion it must be as the alternative is simple stupidity, and from your others posts I do not belive you to be a stupid being.

Tejwant ji is clear in his post that he means what he personaly will and will not accept from you. Which of course he indeed has every right to inform you of.

Did you misunderstand, I cannot belive that? Did you simply then not bother reading his post? I can belive this. Or are you being deceptive?

It is though a known rule here that we do not tolerate proslaytising. So on that score I thing any member can speak up and remined others of this fact.

 

[Kairos]

Curiously, suddenly, Kairos ji

You give many references in your reply to me as to why God cannot be an tangle of contradictory emotions. Yet there are many quotations from this Bible in which this god is full of emotions. And, you have not replied to a key point. When god is portrayed as emotional these are human emotions. Are not humans projecting their own emotional natures on god in the Bible?

I think you must respond to yourself, if the God of the bible might be a invented God by humans, or if he is the true living God, which made the heavens, and the earth. All religions invent their own God, by the imagination of their authors. I believe however, its different with the God of the bible. One clear sign is : by almost all religions, salvation is due to the own efforts to live a life with justice and dignity, according to the demands of the respective God. In the bible it is the contrary. We cannot do anything to earn our salvation. Its entirely Gods mercy and love, and Jesus sacrifice at the cross, which saves us, the only thing God demands us to do, is to believe in Jesus Christ as our lord and savior, and put all our confidence in him, and, as a consequence of our conversion, we start to live a new life according to Gods will. The description of God in the bible is made in a way, we could understand him. In reality, God is completely beyond our comprehension and imagination, therefore any words could ever portray him justly, the way he really is. The words used by the authors in the bible are far from really be capable of doing this, but even with their rudimentary words, they give us a idea.

Why would an emotional god be worthy of trust?

http://www.gotquestions.org/trust-God.html

The main reason we should trust God is that He is worthy of our trust. Unlike men, He never lies and never fails to fulfill His promises. “God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?” (Numbers 23:19; Psalm 89:34). Unlike men, He has the power to bring to pass what He plans and purposes to do. Isaiah 14:24 tells us, “The LORD Almighty has sworn, ‘Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand.’” Furthermore, His plans are perfect, holy, and righteous, and He works all things together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His holy purpose (Romans 8:28). If we endeavor to know God through His Word, we will see that He is worthy of our trust, and our trust in Him will grow day by day. To know Him is to trust Him.

We can learn to trust God as we see how He has proven Himself to be trustworthy in our lives and the lives of others. In 1 Kings 8:56, we read, “Praise be to the LORD, who has given rest to his people Israel just as he promised. Not one word has failed of all the good promises he gave through his servant Moses.” The record of God’s promises is there in His Word for all to see, as is the record of their fulfillment. Historical documents verify those events and speak of God’s faithfulness to His people. Every Christian can give personal testimony to God’s trustworthiness as we see His work in our lives, fulfilling His promises to save our souls and use us for His purposes (Ephesians 2:8-10) and comfort us with the peace that passes all understanding as we run the race He has planned out for us (Philippians 4:6-7; Hebrews 12:1). The more we experience His grace, faithfulness, and goodness, the more we trust Him (Psalm 100:5; Isaiah 25:1).

A third reason to trust God is that we really have no sensible alternative. Should we trust in ourselves or in others who are sinful, unpredictable, unreliable, have limited wisdom, and who frequently make bad choices and decisions swayed by emotion? Or do we trust in the all-wise, all-knowing, all-powerful, gracious, merciful, loving God who has nothing but good intentions for us? The choice should be obvious, but we fail to trust God because we don’t know Him. As stated before, we cannot hope to trust in someone who is essentially a stranger to us, but that is easily remedied. God has not made Himself difficult to find or know. All we need to know about God, He has graciously made available to us in the Bible, His holy Word to His people. To know God is to trust Him.

Why would a god who created everything need to punish sin?

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-punish-sin.html

In order to answer this question, we first need to distinguish between punishment and discipline. For believers in Jesus, all our sin – past, present and future – has already been punished on the cross. As Christians, we will never be punished for sin. That was done once for all. “There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1). Because of the sacrifice of Christ, God sees only the righteousness of Christ when He looks at us. Our sin has been nailed to the cross with Jesus, and we will never be punished for it.

The sin that remains in our lives, however, does sometimes require God’s discipline. If we continue to act in sinful ways and we do not repent and turn from that sin, God brings His divine discipline to bear upon us. If He did not, He would not be a loving and concerned Father. Just as we discipline our own children for their welfare, so does our heavenly Father lovingly correct His children for their benefit. Hebrews 12:7-13 tells us, "As you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as his own children. Whoever heard of a child who was never disciplined? If God doesn't discipline you as he does all of his children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really his children after all. Since we respect our earthly fathers who disciplined us, should we not all the more cheerfully submit to the discipline of our heavenly Father and live forever? For our earthly fathers disciplined us for a few years, doing the best they knew how. But God's discipline is always right and good for us because it means we will share in his holiness. No discipline is enjoyable while it is happening--it is painful! But afterward there will be a quiet harvest of right living for those who are trained in this way.”

Discipline, then, is how God lovingly turns His children from rebellion to obedience. Through discipline our eyes are opened more clearly to God's perspective on our lives. As King David stated in Psalm 32, discipline causes us to confess and repent of sin we have not yet dealt with. In this way discipline is cleansing. It is also a growth catalyst. The more we know about God, the more we know about His desires for our lives. Discipline presents us with the opportunity to learn and to conform ourselves to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2). Discipline is a good thing!

We need to remember that sin is a constant in our lives while we are yet on this earth (Romans 3:10, 23). And as such, we not only have to deal with God's discipline for our disobedience, but we also have to deal with the natural consequences resulting from sin. If a believer steals something, God will forgive him and cleanse him from the sin of theft, restoring fellowship between Himself and the repentant thief. However, the societal consequences of theft can be severe, resulting in fines or even jail time. These are natural consequences of sin and must be endured. But God works even through those to increase our faith and glorify Himself.

Why would such a god need anything? The all powerful has everything.

http://www.gotquestions.org/why-did-God-create-us.html

The short answer to the question “why did God create us?” is “for His pleasure.” Revelation 4:11 says, “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.” Colossians 1:16 reiterates the point: “All things were created by him and for him.” Being created for God’s pleasure does not mean humanity was made to entertain God or provide Him with amusement. God is a creative Being, and it gives Him pleasure to create. God is a personal Being, and it gives Him pleasure to have other beings He can have a genuine relationship with.

Being made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:27), human beings have the ability to know God and therefore love Him, worship Him, serve Him, and fellowship with Him. God did not create human beings because He needed them. As God, He needs nothing. In all eternity past, He felt no loneliness, so He was not looking for a “friend.” He loves us, but this is not the same as needing us. If we had never existed, God would still be God—the unchanging One (Malachi 3:6). The I AM (Exodus 3:14) was never dissatisfied with His own eternal existence. When He made the universe, He did what pleased Himself, and since God is perfect, His action was perfect. “It was very good” (Genesis 1:31).

Also, God did not create “peers” or beings equal to Himself. Logically, He could not do so. If God were to create another being of equal power, intelligence, and perfection, then He would cease to be the one true God for the simple reason that there would be two gods—and that would be an impossibility. “The LORD is God; besides him there is no other” (Deuteronomy 4:35). Anything that God creates must of necessity be lesser than He. The thing made can never be greater than, or as great as, the One who made it.

Recognizing the complete sovereignty and holiness of God, we are amazed that He would take man and crown him “with glory and honor” (Psalm 8:5) and that He would condescend to call us “friends” (John 15:14-15). Why did God create us? God created us for His pleasure and so that we, as His creation, would have the pleasure of knowing Him.

You evaded another issue. How does this god's gift of free will as you understand free will provide opportunities to prove our love for that god?

Our Lord says in John 14:21,

"He who has my commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me."

We must prove our love by our obedience! In Acts, the apostle Peter says that God gives His Holy Spirit to those who OBEY Him! And we are to love not only in word or tongue, but in deed and truth!

Why would the loss of love be a concern for an omnipotent being. In Gurbani we have a God who "keeps on giving" in spite of the moral failings of humans, and we keep taking as there can be no way to repay the all powerful who is the source of everything. This love is unconditional.

a true relationship is both hand. God loves us, so that we can love him , too. Our God also keeps loving us, even and despite our failings and sins. He is just to forgive us, when ( condition ) we repent , ask for forgiveness, and do our best to leave sin, and do his will.

http://www.acts17-11.com/cows_unlove.html

God's love is truly amazing... God's love is unilateral: He loves the unlovable and gives His glory to them. God's love is completely undeserved. God's love is unfailing for those in whom He delights: who respond to Him and receive His Son. But, God's love is clearly not "unconditional"; for wrath and eternal damnation will come to those who reject His Messiah and His Gospel. Let us be sure to be found in the position of receiving God's love, and not His judgment. Let us heed the conditions clearly set forth by our Lord so that we can be at peace with Him. And let us shout the message of these conditions from the rooftops so that others might be saved, rather than retreat into thinly veiled license, universalism, or anything else that "sets itself up against the knowledge of God" (2Cor 10:5).

 

[Seeker9]

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/ast...ce-that-the-universe-had-a-beginning-t199.htm

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_the_Bi...ngularity_where_did_the_singularity_come_from

Back in the late '60s and early '70s, when men first walked upon the moon, "three British astrophysicists, Steven Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose turned their attention to the Theory of Relativity and its implications regarding our notions of time. In 1968 and 1970, they published papers in which they extended Einstein's Theory of General Relativity to include measurements of time and space.1, 2 According to their calculations, time and space had a finite beginning that corresponded to the origin of matter and energy."3 The singularity didn't appear in space; rather, space began inside of the singularity. Prior to the singularity, nothing existed, not space, time, matter, or energy - nothing. So where and in what did the singularity appear if not in space? We don't know.

Stephen Hawking writes, “Almost everyone now believes that the universe, and time itself, had a beginning at the Big Bang.


If God would be the universe, and the universe had a absolute beginning, then God would have had a absolute beginning with the Big Bang.

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its
existence.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of its
existence. that cause was God.

God must therefore be a separate entity of the universe. Pantheismus must therefore be false.

Rubbish!

I don't dispute the findings and theories of the physicists you have quoted and for whom I have huge respect

Just your flawed logic

Leading theoretical Physicists have also said that as well as a Big Bang, there could be a Big Crunch where the Universe returns to a singularity and then starts off again through another Big bang resulting in a new Creation

So under this theory there is then a constant creative process and no beginning and no end to that process or the Creator force controlling that process

Therefore God does not have to be a separate entity from the Universe
Therefore your conclusion is false

 

[Lee]

Rubbish!

I don't dispute the findings and theories of the physicists you have quoted and for whom I have huge respect

Just your flawed logic

Leading theoretical Physicists have also said that as well as a Big Bang, there could be a Big Crunch where the Universe returns to a singularity and then starts off again through another Big bang resulting in a new Creation

So under this theory there is then a constant creative process and no beginning and no end to that process or the Creator force controlling that process

Therefore God does not have to be a separate entity from the Universe
Therefore your conclusion is false

Heheh this either A or B stuff I have never really understood. There are loads more letters of the alphabet to choose from what of option C for example.

God is both a part of and seperate from the creation?

Yep this is what I belive.

 

[Kairos]

Kairos ji,

You don't think so? You don't think that the written word is subject to individual interperation? The sir your thinking must be wrong.

there are things in the bible, which are subject to interpretation. Jesus said, he is the ONLY way to the father. This is NOT subject to interpretation. Or he IS in fact the only way to the father, or he is not. Or you believe, Jesus said the truth, or you don't. There isnt something else to be interpreted. If you don't believe it, you make Jesus a liar.

I do not belive that Jesus is the only way to God, I can't I'm Sikh and that is not what our Guru ji says.

you are free to believe your Guru more than Jesus. The quest is, who tells the truth, who doesnt. Who does use human invention, and who speaks in behalf of the true God. That is up to you to decide, whoom you want to trust more.
I am firmly convinced, that only Jesus Christ is the way to God the father,no one else.

Further even a minimum amount of pondering on the issue informs me that people are differant, we do not all think alike, nor are our cultures the same. Logicaly then there are perhaps two main conclusions that we can reach.

But absolute truth exists, and it does not change based on cultures.

God has created differant people and differant cultures yet choosen only one peoples or one cultural practive as the only valid way to God.

I believe God has choosen the writers of the bible to communicate to us the word of God. And i believe, only Jesus Christ is the way to God the father.

I simply do not belive the first is the act of a loving God, and I belive in a loving God. So the latter must be the better option.

And why should God not choose a determined set of people, to use as channel to reveal himself to us ? which were first the biblical authors, and today, all disciples, which do go all over the world, and preach the gospel ?

Look for the simularities and think about why they are there. What are the differances and what are the simularities?

As said : If one religon teaches Pantheism, and another one monotheism, both cannot tell the truth. One must be false, the other true. God cannot lie, and deceive us. The truth is one only, not many.

To aid you consider this from a discusion elsewhere about the golden rule:

As I say all religious scripture contianes the same kernal of truth, all of the rest is window dressing.

you have presented only one issue of various matters, which are treated through the various religions. When it comes for example to the questi, who God is, and how we can be saved, ask these two questions to all the religions, you mentioned, and as many religions there are, the many different answers you will become. Which one will tell the truth ? certainly not all of them.

 

[Seeker9]

I think you must respond to yourself, if the God of the bible might be a invented God by humans, or if he is the true living God, which made the heavens, and the earth. All religions invent their own God, by the imagination of their authors.

And we can see in The Bible how those authors have influenced the texts. You yourself noted this in an earlier comment

I believe however, its different with the God of the bible. One clear sign is : by almost all religions, salvation is due to the own efforts to live a life with justice and dignity, according to the demands of the respective God.

Rubbish. There's more to it. But are you saying that is not a recommended approach for Christians: "to live a life with justice and dignity"


In the bible it is the contrary. We cannot do anything to earn our salvation. Its entirely Gods mercy and love, and Jesus sacrifice at the cross, which saves us, the only thing God demands us to do, is to believe in Jesus Christ as our lord and savior, and put all our confidence in him, and, as a consequence of our conversion, we start to live a new life according to Gods will.

Yes, a mad axe murderer could take countless lives over many years but as long as he genuinely repents and embraces the triumvirate of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, angels will rejoice in heaven and all is good. Karmic philosophy, quite rightly in my opinion, states there is a consequence for all your actions


The description of God in the bible is made in a way, we could understand him. In reality, God is completely beyond our comprehension and imagination, therefore any words could ever portray him justly, the way he really is.

Yet you continually try to pigeon-hole Him or quote theoretical physics to define parameters around Him

The words used by the authors in the bible are far from really be capable of doing this, but even with their rudimentary words, they give us a idea.



http://www.gotquestions.org/trust-God.html

The main reason we should trust God is that He is worthy of our trust. Unlike men, He never lies and never fails to fulfill His promises. “God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?” (Numbers 23:19; Psalm 89:34). Unlike men, He has the power to bring to pass what He plans and purposes to do. Isaiah 14:24 tells us, “The LORD Almighty has sworn, ‘Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand.’” Furthermore, His plans are perfect, holy, and righteous, and He works all things together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His holy purpose (Romans 8:28). If we endeavor to know God through His Word, we will see that He is worthy of our trust, and our trust in Him will grow day by day. To know Him is to trust Him.

We can learn to trust God as we see how He has proven Himself to be trustworthy in our lives and the lives of others. In 1 Kings 8:56, we read, “Praise be to the LORD, who has given rest to his people Israel just as he promised. Not one word has failed of all the good promises he gave through his servant Moses.” The record of God’s promises is there in His Word for all to see, as is the record of their fulfillment. Historical documents verify those events and speak of God’s faithfulness to His people. Every Christian can give personal testimony to God’s trustworthiness as we see His work in our lives, fulfilling His promises to save our souls and use us for His purposes (Ephesians 2:8-10) and comfort us with the peace that passes all understanding as we run the race He has planned out for us (Philippians 4:6-7; Hebrews 12:1). The more we experience His grace, faithfulness, and goodness, the more we trust Him (Psalm 100:5; Isaiah 25:1).

A third reason to trust God is that we really have no sensible alternative. Should we trust in ourselves or in others who are sinful, unpredictable, unreliable, have limited wisdom, and who frequently make bad choices and decisions swayed by emotion? Or do we trust in the all-wise, all-knowing, all-powerful, gracious, merciful, loving God who has nothing but good intentions for us? The choice should be obvious, but we fail to trust God because we don’t know Him. As stated before, we cannot hope to trust in someone who is essentially a stranger to us, but that is easily remedied. God has not made Himself difficult to find or know. All we need to know about God, He has graciously made available to us in the Bible, His holy Word to His people. To know God is to trust Him.

How many religious paths direct their followers to not Trust God. Your last three paragraphs don't add much to this discussion


http://www.gotquestions.org/God-punish-sin.html

In order to answer this question, we first need to distinguish between punishment and discipline. For believers in Jesus, all our sin – past, present and future – has already been punished on the cross. As Christians, we will never be punished for sin. That was done once for all. “There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1). Because of the sacrifice of Christ, God sees only the righteousness of Christ when He looks at us. Our sin has been nailed to the cross with Jesus, and we will never be punished for it.

The sin that remains in our lives, however, does sometimes require God’s discipline. If we continue to act in sinful ways and we do not repent and turn from that sin, God brings His divine discipline to bear upon us. If He did not, He would not be a loving and concerned Father.

That's Karma mate!

Just as we discipline our own children for their welfare, so does our heavenly Father lovingly correct His children for their benefit. Hebrews 12:7-13 tells us, "As you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as his own children. Whoever heard of a child who was never disciplined? If God doesn't discipline you as he does all of his children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really his children after all. Since we respect our earthly fathers who disciplined us, should we not all the more cheerfully submit to the discipline of our heavenly Father and live forever? For our earthly fathers disciplined us for a few years, doing the best they knew how. But God's discipline is always right and good for us because it means we will share in his holiness. No discipline is enjoyable while it is happening--it is painful! But afterward there will be a quiet harvest of right living for those who are trained in this way.”

Discipline, then, is how God lovingly turns His children from rebellion to obedience. Through discipline our eyes are opened more clearly to God's perspective on our lives. As King David stated in Psalm 32, discipline causes us to confess and repent of sin we have not yet dealt with. In this way discipline is cleansing. It is also a growth catalyst. The more we know about God, the more we know about His desires for our lives. Discipline presents us with the opportunity to learn and to conform ourselves to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2). Discipline is a good thing!

We need to remember that sin is a constant in our lives while we are yet on this earth (Romans 3:10, 23). And as such, we not only have to deal with God's discipline for our disobedience, but we also have to deal with the natural consequences resulting from sin. If a believer steals something, God will forgive him and cleanse him from the sin of theft, restoring fellowship between Himself and the repentant thief. However, the societal consequences of theft can be severe, resulting in fines or even jail time. These are natural consequences of sin and must be endured. But God works even through those to increase our faith and glorify Himself.


More waffle....


http://www.gotquestions.org/why-did-God-create-us.html

The short answer to the question “why did God create us?” is “for His pleasure.” Revelation 4:11 says, “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.” Colossians 1:16 reiterates the point: “All things were created by him and for him.” Being created for God’s pleasure does not mean humanity was made to entertain God or provide Him with amusement. God is a creative Being, and it gives Him pleasure to create. God is a personal Being, and it gives Him pleasure to have other beings He can have a genuine relationship with.

Being made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:27), human beings have the ability to know God and therefore love Him, worship Him, serve Him, and fellowship with Him. God did not create human beings because He needed them. As God, He needs nothing. In all eternity past, He felt no loneliness, so He was not looking for a “friend.” He loves us, but this is not the same as needing us. If we had never existed, God would still be God—the unchanging One (Malachi 3:6). The I AM (Exodus 3:14) was never dissatisfied with His own eternal existence. When He made the universe, He did what pleased Himself, and since God is perfect, His action was perfect. “It was very good” (Genesis 1:31).

Also, God did not create “peers” or beings equal to Himself. Logically, He could not do so. If God were to create another being of equal power, intelligence, and perfection, then He would cease to be the one true God for the simple reason that there would be two gods—and that would be an impossibility. “The LORD is God; besides him there is no other” (Deuteronomy 4:35). Anything that God creates must of necessity be lesser than He. The thing made can never be greater than, or as great as, the One who made it.

Recognizing the complete sovereignty and holiness of God, we are amazed that He would take man and crown him “with glory and honor” (Psalm 8:5) and that He would condescend to call us “friends” (John 15:14-15). Why did God create us? God created us for His pleasure and so that we, as His creation, would have the pleasure of knowing Him.



Our Lord says in John 14:21,

"He who has my commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me."

We must prove our love by our obedience! In Acts, the apostle Peter says that God gives His Holy Spirit to those who OBEY Him! And we are to love not only in word or tongue, but in deed and truth!




a true relationship is both hand. God loves us, so that we can love him , too. Our God also keeps loving us, even and despite our failings and sins. He is just to forgive us, when ( condition ) we repent , ask for forgiveness, and do our best to leave sin, and do his will.

http://www.acts17-11.com/cows_unlove.html

God's love is truly amazing... God's love is unilateral: He loves the unlovable and gives His glory to them. God's love is completely undeserved. God's love is unfailing for those in whom He delights: who respond to Him and receive His Son. But, God's love is clearly not "unconditional"; for wrath and eternal damnation will come to those who reject His Messiah and His Gospel. Let us be sure to be found in the position of receiving God's love, and not His judgment. Let us heed the conditions clearly set forth by our Lord so that we can be at peace with Him. And let us shout the message of these conditions from the rooftops so that others might be saved, rather than retreat into thinly veiled license, universalism, or anything else that "sets itself up against the knowledge of God" (2Cor 10:5).

Most of this post is off track. I did not think we were debating the existence of God as a cocept? Or am I missing something??

 

[Seeker9]

Heheh this either A or B stuff I have never really understood. There are loads more letters of the alphabet to choose from what of option C for example.

God is both a part of and seperate from the creation?

Yep this is what I belive.

Hah hah..yep I'm getting a throbbing headache now!!

 

[Kairos]

Rubbish!

I don't dispute the findings and theories of the physicists you have quoted and for whom I have huge respect

Just your flawed logic

Leading theoretical Physicists have also said that as well as a Big Bang, there could be a Big Crunch where the Universe returns to a singularity and then starts off again through another Big bang resulting in a new Creation

So under this theory there is then a constant creative process and no beginning and no end to that process or the Creator force controlling that process

Therefore God does not have to be a separate entity from the Universe
Therefore your conclusion is false

yeah yeah. The oscillating universe theory. Not new to me.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/ast...tiong-model-of-the-universe-possible-t119.htm

The oscillating model appears to be physically impossible. For all the talk about such models, the fact seems to be that they are only theoretically, but not physically possible. As the late Professor Tinsley of Yale explains, in oscillating models "even though the mathematics say that the universe oscillates, there is no known physics to reverse the collapse and bounce back to a new expansion. The physics seems to say that those models start from the Big Bang, expand, collapse, then end."[22] In order for the oscillating model to be correct, it would seem that the known laws of physics would have to be revised. (ii) The oscillating model seems to be observationally untenable. Two facts of observational astronomy appear to run contrary to the oscillating model. First, the observed homogeneity of matter distribution throughout the universe seems unaccountable on an oscillating model. During the contraction phase of such a model, black holes begin to gobble up surrounding matter, resulting in an inhomogeneous distribution of matter. But there is no known mechanism to "iron out" these inhomogeneities during the ensuing expansion phase. Thus, the homogeneity of matter observed throughout the universe would remain unexplained. Second, the density of the universe appears to be insufficient for the re-contraction of the universe. For the oscillating model to be even possible, it is necessary that the universe be sufficiently dense such that gravity can overcome the force of the expansion and pull the universe back together again. However, according to the best estimates, if one takes into account both luminous matter and non-luminous matter (found in galactic halos) as well as any possible contribution of neutrino particles to total mass, the universe is still only about one-half that needed for re-contraction

 

[Seeker9]

yeah yeah. The oscillating universe theory. Not new to me.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/ast...tiong-model-of-the-universe-possible-t119.htm

The oscillating model appears to be physically impossible. For all the talk about such models, the fact seems to be that they are only theoretically, but not physically possible. As the late Professor Tinsley of Yale explains, in oscillating models "even though the mathematics say that the universe oscillates, there is no known physics to reverse the collapse and bounce back to a new expansion. The physics seems to say that those models start from the Big Bang, expand, collapse, then end."[22] In order for the oscillating model to be correct, it would seem that the known laws of physics would have to be revised. (ii) The oscillating model seems to be observationally untenable. Two facts of observational astronomy appear to run contrary to the oscillating model. First, the observed homogeneity of matter distribution throughout the universe seems unaccountable on an oscillating model. During the contraction phase of such a model, black holes begin to gobble up surrounding matter, resulting in an inhomogeneous distribution of matter. But there is no known mechanism to "iron out" these inhomogeneities during the ensuing expansion phase. Thus, the homogeneity of matter observed throughout the universe would remain unexplained. Second, the density of the universe appears to be insufficient for the re-contraction of the universe. For the oscillating model to be even possible, it is necessary that the universe be sufficiently dense such that gravity can overcome the force of the expansion and pull the universe back together again. However, according to the best estimates, if one takes into account both luminous matter and non-luminous matter (found in galactic halos) as well as any possible contribution of neutrino particles to total mass, the universe is still only about one-half that needed for re-contraction

In that case, don't use theoretical physics as a basis of your argument if you are not prepared to accept theoretical physics as a counter argument. I consider myself to be a seeker and am always learning but also have some knoweldge with regard to philosphy, religion and Science and am more than happy to debate with you on any of these terms. But don't start something that you aren't prepared to follow through

 

[Lee]

there are things in the bible, which are subject to interpretation. Jesus said, he is the ONLY way to the father. This is NOT subject to interpretation. Or he IS in fact the only way to the father, or he is not. Or you believe, Jesus said the truth, or you don't. There isnt something else to be interpreted. If you don't believe it, you make Jesus a liar.



you are free to believe your Guru more than Jesus. The quest is, who tells the truth, who doesnt. Who does use human invention, and who speaks in behalf of the true God. That is up to you to decide, whoom you want to trust more.
I am firmly convinced, that only Jesus Christ is the way to God the father,no one else.



But absolute truth exists, and it does not change based on cultures.



I believe God has choosen the writers of the bible to communicate to us the word of God. And i believe, only Jesus Christ is the way to God the father.




And why should God not choose a determined set of people, to use as channel to reveal himself to us ? which were first the biblical authors, and today, all disciples, which do go all over the world, and preach the gospel ?




As said : If one religon teaches Pantheism, and another one monotheism, both cannot tell the truth. One must be false, the other true. God cannot lie, and deceive us. The truth is one only, not many.

To aid you consider this from a discusion elsewhere about the golden rule:



you have presented only one issue of various matters, which are treated through the various religions. When it comes for example to the questi, who God is, and how we can be saved, ask these two questions to all the religions, you mentioned, and as many religions there are, the many different answers you will become. Which one will tell the truth ? certainly not all of them.

Kairos ji,

First many thanks for your prompt and serious reply.

When you say tha Jesus says he is the only way to the Father from which version of the Bible do you get that translation?

Can you not see that the fact that there are many to choose from and that each do not contiane the same words is testement to how easy it is to corrupt the words of the Bible? As I have said before it is well known that King James changes swathes of teh bible for his own porpouses. How certian are you then of thevalidity of these words? In addition if holy scripture can be changed how holy is it?

Woe betide anybody who attempts to change even a single full stop(period for our State side brothers and sisters) in the pages of Guru Granth Sahib.

You speak about absolute truth, I only know of one indeed Guru ji tells us what it is.

Iknokar sat naam.

What does this mean to you?

Your comments on Pantheism and monotheism show me that you have not grasped my point about window dressing.

So again I'll give it to you and make is as plain as I can.

Theer are many holy scripture and if you look at each you find that each says, love God, love each other, God is all pervading.

This is what God is and what God wants of us, everything else, and I mean everything else is irrelevant, it is window dressing, or subjective data designed for differant cultures and mindsets in order that they each understand the objective truth I have spoke above.

What you belive God to be. One God with no rivals(monothieism) or lots of entieis who are in reality merely differinf aspects of the one(Pantheisism) is irreklevant to what the truth about God is and what God wants form us.

Or put another way.

You say God is Blue I say God is Green, God is really all colours, but whether I say green and you say blue it makes no differance to what God wants of us.