Hair And General Sikh Philosophy Study

[Sinister]

What i think does not matter my opinion means nothing neither does anyone elses. The Guru has spoken A SIKH MUST KEEP HIS HAIR. IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO FOLLOW THE GURU THAT IS YOUR CHOICE, BUT THE GURU ONCE AGAIN HAS SPOKEN HAIR IS A MUST FOR A SIKH PERIOD.

The ultimatum has been given!

sinister unhappy:

 

[spnadmin]

What i think does not matter my opinion means nothing neither does anyone elses. The Guru has spoken A SIKH MUST KEEP HIS HAIR. IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO FOLLOW THE GURU THAT IS YOUR CHOICE, BUT THE GURU ONCE AGAIN HAS SPOKEN HAIR IS A MUST FOR A SIKH PERIOD.

Singh ji

The SGGS nowhere says hair is a must -- and in all the quotes you have used it does not say so. Once again you are not answering questions. And you are once again claiming to be THE ONE who knows what the Guru means by what the Guru says. Now if we all had as much confidence as you what would we be talking about?

 

[Archived_Member4]

Singh ji

The SGGS nowhere says hair is a must -- and in all the quotes you have used it does not say so. Once again you are not answering questions. And you are once again claiming to be THE ONE who knows what the Guru means by what the Guru says. Now if we all had as much confidence as you what would we be talking about?

:rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!:Have you ever heard of the 10th Guru, he came after the 9th Guru and before the 11th Guru. His name was Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji, he is one of the gurus of the Sikh. Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji gave his Hukam and it was very simple Hukam which some have a hard time following because of their ego and self-conceit. The Hukam was EVERY SIKH OF MINE MUST KEEP HAIR. Now you tell me which Guru did not say keep hair; keep in mind Ika Bani Ik Gur Iko Shabad Vichaar. So how can you say Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji never said a Sikh must keep hair? Because all the Gurus have one jot living in them; there is no difference from any Guru. Please tell us how many jots existed in all the Gurus?

 

[spnadmin]

Singh ji

There is no need to take the idea of one jyote and use/misuse this idea to claim that there is a universal mandate among all the Gurus to keep hair. We do not even know if any of the Gurus kept kesh (never trimmed their hair or beard) as an autobiographical fact.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib has no mandate to keep kesh. You still have not answered my questions veerji. Do you think Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji would cast someone aside because he/she did not keep kesh? Was he narrow-minded and rigid about spirituality? This is the same Guru whose did not include his bani in the Adi Granth even when he had the opportunity to do so.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Singh ji

There is no need to take the idea of one jyote and use/misuse this idea to claim that there is a universal mandate among all the Gurus to keep hair. We do not even know if any of the Gurus kept kesh (never trimmed their hair or beard) as an autobiographical fact.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib has no mandate to keep kesh. You still have not answered my questions veerji. Do you think Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji would cast someone aside because he/she did not keep kesh? Was he narrow-minded and rigid about spirituality? This is the same Guru whose did not include his bani in the Adi Granth even when he had the opportunity to do so.

'There is no need to take the idea of one jyote and use/misuse this idea to claim that there is a universal mandate among all the Gurus to keep hair.'

For you there is no need because you want to prove a Sikh can have uncut hair, but Ika Bani Ik Gur Iko Shabad Vichaar speaks for itself. People who want to disapprove that keeping hair uncut is not apart of Sikhi run from this shabad because they know for a fact they can be proven wrong. Once again Guru Gobind Singh Sahib jis Hukam was to keep hair uncut i cannot stress this enough.

'Sri Guru Granth Sahib has no mandate to keep Kesh.'

Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji in his Hukam for the Sikhs had already spoken on hair and he said every Sikh must keep hair.

'We do not even know if any of the Gurus kept kesh (never trimmed their hair or beard) as an autobiographical fact. '

Present these facts because Guru Gobind Singh ji gave a hukam to the sikhs and the same hukam went to the Khalsa about keep hair uncut and also Guru Gobind Singh Sahib was intaited in the Khalsa by the Panj Pyare, Which would mean Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji would have to keep his hair and not cut or trim it.

'Do you think Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji would cast someone aside because he/she did not keep Kesh?'

No one can speak on behalf of the Guru the Guru and the Guru has spoken on Hair in the Hukam given by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji the Sikhs must keep hair.

'This is the same Guru whose did not include his bani in the Adi Granth even when he had the opportunity to do so. '

What do you mean by this, please explain.

 

[Archived_Member4]

'There is no need to take the idea of one jyote and use/misuse this idea to claim that there is a universal mandate among all the Gurus to keep hair'

This is not an idea it is a fact because once again the Shabad Guru tells us it is a fact.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Guru ji is saying here that the ones that shave their head bald and the ones with matted tangled hair are unclean from the inside and outside. they waste their life in corruption but act holy from the outside.

Yes and he includes braids in it and anyone else with even a little commen sense would add every other hair style to the list.

 

[BhagatSingh]

The shabad is only talking about hair when one is completely in love with the Lord and before that people are just using the shabad to say hair is not required in Sikhi because of this shabad. And in this shabad there is only one line that talks about hair rest is about duality and love for the Lord.

Singh ji!! The shabad is only two lines!!!:}--}:

Either way the shabad does not say keep hair or cut hair.

"You may have long hair or you may shave your head bald" ?? That doesn't tell you that you can have cut or uncut hair?
:crazy:

So in the end it does not bring us closer to any side of the arguement.

:}:
Earth to Singh Ji... have you landed yet?

 

[BhagatSingh]

Let's see where in gurbani it says, "Without me your life is useless"

Please explain yourself hear.

Now for my "explanation"...

Look Bhagat Singh ji in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it says a Sikh must follow the Guru and here you are saying we don’t have to follow the Guru.

Singh ji in SGGS Guru can also mean God. Since God is in fact the ultimate teacher, the satguru. And there is no way we cannot follow God! Hukumai under saph ko, bahar hhukam no koi. Everyone is under his command, there is no one outside of it. (jap ji sahib)
(again provide quotes so we can look at the shabad(s) you are referring to, specifically)

Even if we have all the answers we are still Sikhs of the Guru and the Guru is the connection to God for the Sikhs; without the Guru life is meaningless and all the answers to the world are meaningless without the Guru.

So you are saying Guru Nanak's life was meaningless since he had no human Guru?

Plus later on I asked you if you took Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as your Guru and you replied yes I do. But in the above comment you have said we can do the same as in Guru Nanak Dev ji did not have a Guru so we do not need one either if we have all the answers.

I didn't say that part I put in bold.

You claim to be a Sikh but then go on to say this.

Yep and I still am a Sikh. :u):





I stand by what I said before.

You said, " Yes question what you want but if you do not follow Guru ji then what is the use of all the answers. "

I replied, "Did Guru Nanak (Guru Nanak Dev Ji) (Guru Nanak Dev Ji) follow any Guru Jis? No, and yet he found a use of all the answers."

My point is we can do the same.

 

[BhagatSingh]

'There is no need to take the idea of one jyote and use/misuse this idea to claim that there is a universal mandate among all the Gurus to keep hair'

This is not an idea it is a fact because once again the Shabad Guru tells us it is a fact.

Please provide quotes from SGGS that back up your "facts".

 

[BhagatSingh]

:rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!:Have you ever heard of the 10th Guru, he came after the 9th Guru and before the 11th Guru. His name was Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji, he is one of the gurus of the Sikh. Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji gave his Hukam and it was very simple Hukam which some have a hard time following because of their ego and self-conceit. The Hukam was EVERY SIKH OF MINE MUST KEEP HAIR.

Guru Gobind Singh ji started this discipline he called "Khalsa". He intiated people into this discipline so they could fight oppression!
But Gur Gobind SIngh was smart, what he did was make the amrit ceremony a ritual (yes a ritual)! This attracted quite a number of people as it seemed very magical to them (and still does). And all Guru Gobind Singh ji really had to do was say was that the water in the bowl would make one(who drinks it) fight millions! And voila!!! We have 21 vs 1000, 40 vs 10000, 2 vs 800 and so on! What power of this simple water and his rebelious discipline!!! It fascinating but it is not to be confused with Sikhism! Well, that's my take on it.
About keeping hair, when Muslims converted someone to Islam they would cut their hair (it didn't matter if they were Sikhs). Cutting someone's hair was like saying I control you! This is seen everywhere in history! read: Raj Kumar Singh: The Backlash! July 1998

Now you tell me which Guru did not say keep hair; keep in mind Ika Bani Ik Gur Iko Shabad Vichaar.

The other 9, even Guru Gobind Singh said keep hair, only to those who were in his new discipline.
About that sentence, please post the whole shabad.

So how can you say Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji never said a Sikh must keep hair?

After showing you that shabad by Kabeer ji, I think it's quite obvious how we can say "Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji never said a Sikh must keep hair"

Because all the Gurus have one jot living in them; there is no difference from any Guru. Please tell us how many jots existed in all the Gurus?

Ya buddy we all have one jyot in us! Your jyot is no different than the jyot of the Gurus.
Well the Gurus were all different individuals so 10 individual jyots, and one Main Jyot AKA God.

 

[BhagatSingh]

'There is no need to take the idea of one jyote and use/misuse this idea to claim that there is a universal mandate among all the Gurus to keep hair.'

For you there is no need because you want to prove a Sikh can have uncut hair, but Ika Bani Ik Gur Iko Shabad Vichaar speaks for itself.

It might if you provide the whole shabad.

People who want to disapprove that keeping hair uncut is not apart of Sikhi run from this shabad because they know for a fact they can be proven wrong. Once again Guru Gobind Singh Sahib jis Hukam was to keep hair uncut i cannot stress this enough.

Well, then he should have wrote it in SGGS. Maybe he DID NOT stress IT enough!

'Sri Guru Granth Sahib has no mandate to keep Kesh.'

That is correcto!

Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji in his Hukam for the Sikhs had already spoken on hair and he said every Sikh must keep hair.

Well, then he should have wrote it in SGGS. Maybe he did not WANT to stress IT at all!

'We do not even know if any of the Gurus kept kesh (never trimmed their hair or beard) as an autobiographical fact. '

That is correcto!

Present these facts because Guru Gobind Singh ji gave a hukam to the sikhs and the same hukam went to the Khalsa about keep hair uncut and also Guru Gobind Singh Sahib was intaited in the Khalsa by the Panj Pyare, Which would mean Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji would have to keep his hair and not cut or trim it.

Ok Guru Gobind Singh ji would have definitely started to keep hair when he got intiated. But that doesn't mean he didn't cut his hair before. And it definitely doesn't mean the other Gurus had uncut hair.

'Do you think Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji would cast someone aside because he/she did not keep Kesh?'

No one can speak on behalf of the Guru the Guru and the Guru has spoken on Hair in the Hukam given by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji the Sikhs must keep hair.

So you are saying yes?

'This is the same Guru whose did not include his bani in the Adi Granth even when he had the opportunity to do so. '

What do you mean by this, please explain.

She means the so called "Dasam Granth" was not added to SGGS and neither were any of the "rehitnamas". :advocate:
In my opinion, Guru Gobind Singh was an intelectual so he did not add those writings to the SGGS because he understood the message of SGGS! Not because he was humble! the Gurus were humble yet still fought back! That shows what kind of people they were!

 

[Archived_Member4]

Look Bhagat Singh ji, you have made it clear that you do not need to follow the Guru by stating the following:

I replied, "Did Guru Nanak (Guru Nanak Dev Ji) (Guru Nanak Dev Ji) (Guru Nanak Dev Ji) follow any Guru Jis? No, and yet he found a use of all the answers."

My point is we can do the same.

Then later on when I asked you if you accept Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as your Guru? Your reply

‘Yes I do’

Therefore you are contradicting yourself in your two answers.

Also your replied to this comment saying, ‘I didn't say that part I put in bold.’ That’s fine you did not say the part in bold. But I also accused you in the same paragraph of saying I am equal to Guru Nanak Dev ji. This and the above show that you consider yourself equal to the Guru Nanak Dev ji and also have said I do not need to follow the Guru.

Therefore to call yourself a Sikh is also a contradiction because a Sikh needs to follow the Guru and takes that the Guru is higher than the Sikh. Furthermore to prove what I am accusing you of is not just a statement, but a fact is that you go on to say, ‘Guru Nanak Dev ji did not follow no Guru and yet he found the use of all the asnwers’ so my point is we can do the same.’ Once again saying we do not need to follow the Guru is going against Sikhi; the Guru is needed for guides and is higher than the Sikhs.

Quote:
Even if we have all the answers we are still Sikhs of the Guru and the Guru is the connection to God for the Sikhs; without the Guru life is meaningless and all the answers to the world are meaningless without the Guru.

So you are saying Guru Nanak's life was meaningless since he had no human Guru.

Bhagat Singh ji Guru Nanak Dev ji is the Guru. Guru Nanak Dev ji is the Guru that the Sikhs follow.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Look Bhagat Singh ji, you have made it clear that you do not need to follow the Guru by stating the following:

I replied, "Did Guru Nanak (Guru Nanak Dev Ji) (Guru Nanak Dev Ji) (Guru Nanak Dev Ji) follow any Guru Jis? No, and yet he found a use of all the answers."

My point is we can do the same.

Then later on when I asked you if you accept Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as your Guru? Your reply

‘Yes I do’

Therefore you are contradicting yourself in your two answers.

:rofl!!:I meant "one doesn't NEED to." I never said/meant "I don't need to." Even if I said/meant" I don't need to follow the Gurus", you can still have a guru and not follow them so that is not a contradiction either way, my friend. If you have a Guru, it does not automatically apply that you need one.

Also your replied to this comment saying, ‘I didn't say that part I put in bold.’ That’s fine you did not say the part in bold. But I also accused you in the same paragraph of saying I am equal to Guru Nanak Dev ji.

Well, saying someone is equal to someone else, is very vague. I stated how I and everyone else, is equal to Guru Nanak in a particular way!

This and the above show that you consider yourself equal to the Guru Nanak Dev ji and also have said I do not need to follow the Guru.

No you have taken my statement and put it out of context, just like you do with bani.

Therefore to call yourself a Sikh is also a contradiction because a Sikh needs to follow the Guru and takes that the Guru is higher than the Sikh.

That is completely your opinion.

Furthermore to prove what I am accusing you of is not just a statement, but a fact is that you go on to say, ‘Guru Nanak Dev ji did not follow no Guru and yet he found the use of all the asnwers’ so my point is we can do the same.’ Once again saying we do not need to follow the Guru is going against Sikhi; the Guru is needed for guides and is higher than the Sikhs.

There you go, the Guru is a guide! Are they higher than us? That depends on how you look at it and it doesn't have anything to do with being a Sikh.

Quote:

Even if we have all the answers we are still Sikhs of the Guru and the Guru is the connection to God for the Sikhs; without the Guru life is meaningless and all the answers to the world are meaningless without the Guru.

So you are saying Guru Nanak's life was meaningless since he had no human Guru.

Bhagat Singh ji Guru Nanak Dev ji is the Guru. Guru Nanak Dev ji is the Guru that the Sikhs follow.

Did he call himself a Guru? and are you saying that my statement there is false?

 

[Archived_Member4]

meant "one doesn't NEED to." I never said/meant "I don't need to." Even if I said/meant" I don't need to follow the Gurus", you can still have a Guru and not follow them so that is not a contradiction either way, my friend. If you have a Guru, it does not automatically apply that you need one.

Read the Gurbani that I have posted below then tell me if one does not need the Guru. Read the last shabad that i posted its on ang 33

In attachment to Maya, they have forgotten the Father, the Cherisher of the World. Without the Guru, all are unconscious; they are held in bondage by the Messenger of Death. O Nanak, through the Guru.s Teachings, you shall be saved, contemplating the True Name. || 4 || 10 || 43 || ang 30

Without the Guru, the Mansion of the Lord.s Presence is not found, and
the Naam is not obtained. Seek and find such a True Guru, who shall lead you to the True Lord. Destroy your evil passions, and you shall dwell in peace. Whatever pleases the Lord comes to pass. || 3 || ang 30

SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: If you know that He is your Husband Lord, offer your body and mind to Him. Behave like the happy and pure soul-bride. With intuitive ease, you shall merge with the True Lord, and He shall bless you with true greatness. || 1 || O Siblings of Destiny,
without the Guru, there is no devotional worship. Without the Guru, devotion is not obtained, even though everyone may long for it. || 1 || Pause || The soul-bride in love with duality goes around the wheel of reincarnation, through 8.4 million incarnations. Without the Guru, she finds no sleep, and she passes her life-night in pain. Without the Shabad, she does not find her Husband Lord, and her life wastes away in vain. || ang 31

SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: By His Grace one becomes Gurmukh, worshipping the Lord with devotion. Without the Guru there is no devotional worship. Those whom He unites with Himself, understand and become pure. The Dear Lord is True, and True is the Word of His Bani. Through the Shabad, we merge with Him. || 1 || O Siblings of Destiny: those who lack devotion.why have they even bothered to come into the world? They do not serve the Perfect Guru; they waste away their lives in vain. || 1 || Pause || ang 32

Within your conscious mind, you may say anything, but without the Guru, selfishness is not removed. The Dear Lord is the Giver, the Lover of His devotees. By His Grace, He comes to
dwell in the mind. O Nanak, by His Grace, He bestows enlightened awareness; God Himself blesses the Gurmukh with glorious
greatness. || 4 || 15 || 48 || ang 32

SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: By His Grace,
the Guru is found, and the Name of the Lord is implanted within. Without the Guru, no one has obtained it; they waste away their lives in vain. The self-willed manmukhs create karma, and in the Court of the Lord, they receive their punishment. || 1 || O mind, give up the love of duality. The Lord dwells within you; serving the Guru, you shall find peace. || Pause || ang 33

 

[spnadmin]

And I am still waiting to hear whether anyone is willing to conjecture that one or more of our Gurus would kick a person out of the panth because of hair.

 

[pk70]

SANGAT JIO

There is a story about Guru Ram Das Ji, son of third Guru once went Guru’s darbar and gave very derogatory remarks about Guru’s long beard. Guru ji answered in utter humbleness” Yes I have grown it long so that I can dust your feet” The guy realized outright that his being Guru’s son didn’t qualify him better than the chosen Guru. No Guru thought it necessary to ask Sikhs to make hair mandatory, if they did, we would have found it in Sree Guru Granth Sahib ji for sure, more stress is given on truthful living, unfortunately today more stress is given on appearance. Tenth Master made it mandatory for Khalsa, but he didn’t declare amrit mandatory for all Sikhs, very dear Sikhs to him, remained without amrit like Bhai Ghaneea Ji and Bhai Nand Lal Ji, not a single proof is available that they took amrit and they didn’t change their names obviously. There are Hukamnamas out there from Tenth Master and Mata Sundri Ji, addressed to Sikhs without “Singh” with their names ( Hukamname, Pyra Singh Padam). Khalsa was known as an army of Akaalpurakh ready to serve for the cause Guru Sahibaan preached over centuries; however, Guru ji kept Khalsa and Sikhs dear to him equally. Sehajdhari Sikhs are as good as amritdharis are if both follow only Guru Teachings with high gravity of sincerity. Without truthful living, to have hair or not to have, one is deemed to drown in Maya which is an opposite goal of Nanak Panth. I am amritdhari, I cannot see myself without hair but it doesn’t mean I have got license to judge others who don’t have hair and call them they are not Sikhs.
I humbly urge the members that please do not comment on Guru Sahiban about their hairs or beards. Keep that part respectful. Assumptions are nothing more than dreams. Guess some time can make us fools.

ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਕਾਮ ॥
Other works are of no avail to thee.
ਹੋਰ ਕਾਰਜ ਤੇਰੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਭੀ ਕੰਮ ਨਹੀਂ।
ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥੧॥ (SGGS 12)
Joining the society of saints, contemplate over the Name alone.
ਸਤਿਸੰਗਤ ਅੰਦਰ ਜੁੜ ਕੇ, ਸਿਰਫ ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਆਰਾਧਨ ਕਰ।

 

[Archived_Member4]

And I am still waiting to hear whether anyone is willing to conjecture that one or more of our Gurus would kick a person out of the panth because of hair.

Aad ji You are going with what the Guru might do. And I am just stating what Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji has said and if you have a problem and/or don't like what he said that Sikhs must keep hair then ask Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji why he made it his Hukam and ask him this question.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

how can someone be kicked out of something that is betwen two by a third party?

 

[Archived_Member5]

In an uncertain world and turbulent life, man seeks stability and enlightenment to make sense of the complexities, mysteries and confusion prevalent in his life and the world. Tradition and culture came into being. A set doctrine for all to follow in societies and social circles. This sets our societal expectations of each member of the religion or community and all abide by the laid down statutes.

The maintaining of tresses is traditional in all cultures especially amongst women. The cutting of hair was the mark of a woman set apart or fallen from grace. With transmigration and multiculturalism we strive to hold onto to a fine and noble culture that breeds wise and strong sons and daughters. In witnessing western nations and races shedding all, tradition and social mores in pursuit of emancipation or in the cause of freedom, we find they have gained nothing, rather a marked decrease in moral fibre, and character. High rates of disease and dysfunction are symptoms of a lack and absence of culture and pastoral guidance.

The cutting of hair is not threatening, but it poses a major change from the path determined by the Guru’s. It is an issue, a matter of adherence to a set discipline than any spiritual revelations regarding hair by followers of a religious doctrine. On foreign shores and in distant lands all strive to assimilate into the traditions of the host nation and maintain the inherent doctrine. Alas the western nations bemoan a lack of identity in the cause of globalisation. Caused largely by negative forces seeking to subvert the cause of unification of mankind for their own agenda’s and ambitions.

Cutting hair is not in any way essential, although girls living in these times prefer easy maintenance and being part of the society they live within, this is a poor excuse. It then becomes a matter of nurturing and indoctrination. Some are blessed with offspring who heed parental advice and others less so. Integration into a workplace culture and adopting customary dress and hair fashion at home and amongst family seems the favoured approach.