Islam Sikh-Muslim Marriages

[chk1]

It is incredibly sad to see that most sikhs cannot even have calm rational discussions with muslims as prejudices get in the way. Firstly we are not anyone to judge, if you do judge people, don't judge them by what they are but rather who they are. Secondly, everyone is allowed an opinion whether they be muslim, sikh, jatt or whatever and nobody's opinion or say is un valid. Thirdly, from what i observe religious intolerance is on the rapid increase. If we wish to live in a more peaceful environment we have to set our differences aside and work together to achieve a more peaceful society.
Being born into a religious sikh family, i understand arguements about forceful conversions by muslim men, etc. My family are pretty intolerant too about muslims, something i ashamed to admit because i wish they would be more open minded and loving rather than like everybody else in this community. But what i have seen, is that while things like this do happen, not every muslim is the same, and not every muslim is an extremist. There are extremists in every religion but yet the majority of us are not regardless of what religion we come from. As i have grown up and met different people from different religions, cultures i have grown to respect each and everyone with an open mind. I do not condone extremist behaviour, and i am not "converting" to islam because of my open mindedness. Something which im sure many of you will jump to believe simply because it always has to be one extreme or the other, either you're against muslim and "sikh" or you're not and you're "muslim".
I often point out things like this to my parents, and as expected they get angry and say i dont know any better. Fair enough but then i say why be racist? you wouldnt want anybody to be racist to yourselves, and after all "what goes around comes around". They say oh the koran isnt bad but its the people who are corrupt. The people twist the religion and manipulate it, but isn't that the case with many people from other religions? And whilst they annouce they aren't against the teachings from the koran they are so intolerant and prejudiced against every muslim person. So to me this doesn't add up.
Because of hypocrisy and corruption and the idea that one religion is better than another i don't follow a religion i have chosen to be spiritual and follow a path that declares every path to be right (as they all lead to the divine) and not one of us better than another. In this way i maintain my respect for others and their beliefs.
I am in love with a muslim man, a fairly liberal muslim who doesn't have anything against my beliefs or my familys. He has not asked me to convert, in fact he has said that he wouldnt want me to, because i would not be doing it from my heart and i agree. He wants to come to my house with his family, with all respect and ask for my hand and explain that i will not be converting and that he wants me and my parents to have that connection even after marriage, as family ties are important to both of us. Now many of you will think perhaps this man has a hidden agenda or hes corrupting me, whatever it is, but this is not the case. If my parents do not agree and after meeting his family and getting to know they decide they don't want me to marry him he will walk away so that my parents don't get hurt if we married without their consent. Giving so much consideration for the way my family feel and how i feel this is not the agenda of some fanatical muslim who is forcefully converting me.
For those of you who will disagree with me on his agenda, that is fine you are welcome to your opinions but remember that if we want this world to be a more peaceful place we need to change things, become less religiously intolerant and ignorant. Because what goes around comes around, we dish out the hatred its only fair to get it back.

 

[a lost sikh]

UK Sikh girls marrying muslims?......this is not the case. Infact many Muslim girls are dating Sikhs because they do not want to wear a Burkha and be repressed. Sikh girls are wising up to the "hero" greasy charms of many of the Pakistani/Muslim boys who are usually jobless and are fanatical in the faith they preach. Sikh girls want to be free and independent.

In US and Canada, there seems to be a epedemic of Sikh girls marrying whites/blacks and hispanics. I know of several who have done this. I do not see this as a problem, but many of them are rejecting outright Sikh values.....which is a problem.

I think the hipocrisy in our sikh community is what is driving young men and women elsewhere. They are rebelling in many cases to the to the tight control on what they are allowed to think about their future partner. In their minds they may be thinking "I will show them, I can be with anyone and they can not stop me!" Which in unfortunate but I think that parents play a fairly big role in this epidemic.

 

[kds1980]

It is incredibly sad to see that most sikhs cannot even have calm rational discussions with muslims as prejudices get in the way. Firstly we are not anyone to judge, if you do judge people, don't judge them by what they are but rather who they are. Secondly, everyone is allowed an opinion whether they be muslim, sikh, jatt or whatever and nobody's opinion or say is un valid. Thirdly, from what i observe religious intolerance is on the rapid increase. If we wish to live in a more peaceful environment we have to set our differences aside and work together to achieve a more peaceful society.
Being born into a religious sikh family, i understand arguements about forceful conversions by muslim men, etc. My family are pretty intolerant too about muslims, something i ashamed to admit because i wish they would be more open minded and loving rather than like everybody else in this community. But what i have seen, is that while things like this do happen, not every muslim is the same, and not every muslim is an extremist. There are extremists in every religion but yet the majority of us are not regardless of what religion we come from. As i have grown up and met different people from different religions, cultures i have grown to respect each and everyone with an open mind. I do not condone extremist behaviour, and i am not "converting" to islam because of my open mindedness. Something which im sure many of you will jump to believe simply because it always has to be one extreme or the other, either you're against muslim and "sikh" or you're not and you're "muslim".
I often point out things like this to my parents, and as expected they get angry and say i dont know any better. Fair enough but then i say why be racist? you wouldnt want anybody to be racist to yourselves, and after all "what goes around comes around". They say oh the koran isnt bad but its the people who are corrupt. The people twist the religion and manipulate it, but isn't that the case with many people from other religions? And whilst they annouce they aren't against the teachings from the koran they are so intolerant and prejudiced against every muslim person. So to me this doesn't add up.
Because of hypocrisy and corruption and the idea that one religion is better than another i don't follow a religion i have chosen to be spiritual and follow a path that declares every path to be right (as they all lead to the divine) and not one of us better than another. In this way i maintain my respect for others and their beliefs.
I am in love with a muslim man, a fairly liberal muslim who doesn't have anything against my beliefs or my familys. He has not asked me to convert, in fact he has said that he wouldnt want me to, because i would not be doing it from my heart and i agree. He wants to come to my house with his family, with all respect and ask for my hand and explain that i will not be converting and that he wants me and my parents to have that connection even after marriage, as family ties are important to both of us. Now many of you will think perhaps this man has a hidden agenda or hes corrupting me, whatever it is, but this is not the case. If my parents do not agree and after meeting his family and getting to know they decide they don't want me to marry him he will walk away so that my parents don't get hurt if we married without their consent. Giving so much consideration for the way my family feel and how i feel this is not the agenda of some fanatical muslim who is forcefully converting me.
For those of you who will disagree with me on his agenda, that is fine you are welcome to your opinions but remember that if we want this world to be a more peaceful place we need to change things, become less religiously intolerant and ignorant. Because what goes around comes around, we dish out the hatred its only fair to get it back.

dear chk1

please read the follwing

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a sane male apostate must be executed. A female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others.
------------------------------------------------------------------

could you please name one of the other major religion on this earth where all scholars unanimously agree's that apostate should be killed.

 

[kaur-1]

Chk1, this is also a good site to read

Why I Chose Sikhism

Dont let this temporary "Love" or "Lust in most cases", rule your heart. Use your head.

Do you want children of tommorow like the video http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/general-section/15053-children-tommorow-guru-gobind-singh-video.html

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

 

[vaapaaraa]

dear chk1,

whatever decision you take, but never let go of Satguru ji. Millions of worldly loves are all ashes infront of the glory of Satguru ji, only Satguru ji is forever with us. Satguru Granth Sahib ji is found through great fortune. Vaahiguroo bless you, take care sister.

 

[badmash]

Matters of the heart do not follow logic or example. It is just a shame that as Sikhs we are not comfortable saying, Hey, be and remain a Sikh and preserve Sikhi because you should! And because your forefathers died for it.

The influence of the west is to ameliorate the sense of identity and to put before it the kinds of examples above. Let all those who feel the need to preserve it do the best they can to effect something real and lasting.

 

[chk1]

dear chk1

please read the follwing

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a sane male apostate must be executed. A female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others.
------------------------------------------------------------------

could you please name one of the other major religion on this earth where all scholars unanimously agree's that apostate should be killed.

If the persons involved in the relationship agree together that religion is not the deciding factor for them to be together then nothing else can change that. Both of us are liberal, nobody can impose such a penalty on either of us, personally that doesn't matter. How can anyone say religion has to be the deciding factor of whether two people be together or not.

Kaur 1 i appreciate your reply and suggestion it might be temporary love, but i do not love someone for their religion, but only for who they are. If i believe new spirituality is the path for me, then so be it, sikhism is the path for you, and i applaud you for following that path. But please don't try to convince me to believe otherwise, for a long time i have seen the hypocrisy, violence, double standards that is involved with religion. Religion teaches us to follow its path, where as spirituality teaches us to go within and follow the path true to our hearts. That is what i am doing.

 

[chk1]

Matters of the heart do not follow logic or example. It is just a shame that as Sikhs we are not comfortable saying, Hey, be and remain a Sikh and preserve Sikhi because you should! And because your forefathers died for it.

The influence of the west is to ameliorate the sense of identity and to put before it the kinds of examples above. Let all those who feel the need to preserve it do the best they can to effect something real and lasting.

Badmash ji,

I believe that one's truth is found in themselves, i have not renounced sikhi and i am not against it, but i don't see why i should follow something if it isn't right for me and because my forfathers followed it. I respect my family and their beliefs, i have found my truth by going within. I do not need to follow a religion for others or merely to preserve it.

 

[dalsingh]

Chk1

I can't imagine any self respecting Sikh father agreeing to what you are suggesting. But before you berate your own community give some thought to how your average muslim father would react to a Sikh man coming to his house and telling him he wanted his daughter.

I don't know the guy you're talking about, maybe he is great, but it is true that MANY Sikh girls who have held the same beliefs as you have often ended up in a real mess doing what you are suggesting.

Of course you are free to do what you want but please don't try and portray it as some sort of good, progressive behaviour. I wouldn't want my daughter to hear that ****.

Maybe I am a pindu in the end, even with all my education. But for me it is simply a matter of my own people come first, preservation and protection of what was inherited by me through the blood and tears of my brave forefathers. I guess I keep it simple, it's just a question of loyalty to me. I think that means something very important in this fickle day and age.

The rest of you, be careful, muslims often post such things as propaganda. Remember that when you read posts like that.

 

[SoniaKG]

This is a very interesting discussion which i would very much like to give my opnion in. I do not intend to offend anyone, their beliefs or views.
This is a topic which one could go well into the night discussing or respnd to it in one sentence. Before being labelled as a follower of a dharam i am a human. Created by my maker. When making me my waheguru gave me a heart as well as a mind body and atmaan. however outside of this perfect creation we have many imperperfections and we are always making mistakes and errors in our determination to become better humans and individuals. We have within us all the potential to love one another and have respect for one another regardless of wheather a person is a sikh hindu muslim christian or follower of another path. These divine paths lead to one source. Throught sikh history time and again we are given inspiring examples of where gursikhs have defended the rights of peoples of other religions. This was not because they were sikhs alone but because they were insaan (humans) and as sikhs we are thought the divine is in each and everyone of us and that is something that we should all see in each other and when we do, then we have been liberated from our ignorance of self pride. Love is part and parcel of sikhi. Sikhism if i could put it in one word is self sacrifice. Love is self sacrifice and willing to put ourseleves on the line and be willing to be different and not afraid to follow our hearts. Because within these the creator resides. With regards to the many comments left i would say before we judge others we should first look within our selves and realise when we judge others we are judging the creator and god within them. Are we truly permissable for such a act. Why are people so afraid and against the concept that a sikh and muslim can marry. A marriage is preordained and is the hukam of the divine and if god feels that two people should be together neither the babarity of this world or the hell of the next can ever end that relation. Everything is withing God's will. From the punjab come great love folk tales which are celebrated and admired. Love is never easy as it is, and when two people do fall in love isnt it better that they come together in peace and love rather than coming together in hatred and vemice for one another.

 

[chk1]

Chk1

I can't imagine any self respecting Sikh father agreeing to what you are suggesting. But before you berate your own community give some thought to how your average muslim father would react to a Sikh man coming to his house and telling him he wanted his daughter.

I don't know the guy you're talking about, maybe he is great, but it is true that MANY Sikh girls who have held the same beliefs as you have often ended up in a real mess doing what you are suggesting.

Of course you are free to do what you want but please don't try and portray it as some sort of good, progressive behaviour. I wouldn't want my daughter to hear that ****.

Maybe I am a pindu in the end, even with all my education. But for me it is simply a matter of my own people come first, preservation and protection of what was inherited by me through the blood and tears of my brave forefathers. I guess I keep it simple, it's just a question of loyalty to me. I think that means something very important in this fickle day and age.

The rest of you, be careful, muslims often post such things as propaganda. Remember that when you read posts like that.

So then its a question of pride ego and what people will think. Instead of building bridges you're trying to widen the gap? Instead of contributing to peace you're basing your opinion on ignorance and narrow mindedness? How can you judge a person if you don't know them. You wouldn't want to be judged by your religion think how others feel. Perhaps one day some extremists will give sikhism a bad name and people will forget the true essence of sikhism and judge based upon the action of a few.
I am not saying conversions don't occur, don't think i am ignorant and unaware of cosequences. But it seems to me ego and pride over take many arguements. This sense of loyalty for example, i was always told to be true sikh one had to lose their ego and literally go out of their mind? perhaps i'm wrong now that politics has dominated religion.
From what i gather you're proud of your religion, thats excellent but don't let pride come in the way of everything because that makes you as bad as the muslims who proclaim their path is the one and only true path.
Guru Nanak Dev Ji said, there is no hindu and no musalmaan, that always leads me to think theres no "sikh" either but only those who hold God in their hearts and follow the example Guru Nanak dev ji set us.
It is exactly comments and answers like the one you posted and others that makes me realise the true meaning of sikhism has died which is why i refuse to follow a particular religion. Gone are the days where people respected other paths and religions now its all about "whos is better", "whos scriptures are better", "who are better people". There is no path or religion better, only different.

 

[chk1]

This is a very interesting discussion which i would very much like to give my opnion in. I do not intend to offend anyone, their beliefs or views.
This is a topic which one could go well into the night discussing or respnd to it in one sentence. Before being labelled as a follower of a dharam i am a human. Created by my maker. When making me my waheguru gave me a heart as well as a mind body and atmaan. however outside of this perfect creation we have many imperperfections and we are always making mistakes and errors in our determination to become better humans and individuals. We have within us all the potential to love one another and have respect for one another regardless of wheather a person is a sikh hindu muslim christian or follower of another path. These divine paths lead to one source. Throught sikh history time and again we are given inspiring examples of where gursikhs have defended the rights of peoples of other religions. This was not because they were sikhs alone but because they were insaan (humans) and as sikhs we are thought the divine is in each and everyone of us and that is something that we should all see in each other and when we do, then we have been liberated from our ignorance of self pride. Love is part and parcel of sikhi. Sikhism if i could put it in one word is self sacrifice. Love is self sacrifice and willing to put ourseleves on the line and be willing to be different and not afraid to follow our hearts. Because within these the creator resides. With regards to the many comments left i would say before we judge others we should first look within our selves and realise when we judge others we are judging the creator and god within them. Are we truly permissable for such a act. Why are people so afraid and against the concept that a sikh and muslim can marry. A marriage is preordained and is the hukam of the divine and if god feels that two people should be together neither the babarity of this world or the hell of the next can ever end that relation. Everything is withing God's will. From the punjab come great love folk tales which are celebrated and admired. Love is never easy as it is, and when two people do fall in love isnt it better that they come together in peace and love rather than coming together in hatred and vemice for one another.

Sonia,
Your comment is very inspiring and beautiful, makes me remember how the divine resides in all of us, and how no one person is better than another, i hope others can dwell upon these words and feel the love and peace that resides within us.

 

[chk1]

I just wanted to add, muslims may be giving out propaganda, but sikhs do too it's hard to believe certain things we read or hear. And lets not forget the role of the media who distort things aswell.
Propaganda is all around us. Whether sikhs or muslims write it.

 

[SoniaKG]

Thank you for appreciating my simple words. There is a saying that love conquers all, and there is nothing else i would want to be conquered by. The ten sikh guru's conquered with love grace and humility. As did sages and prohpets of other paths. Rather than arguing over whose path is right we should look to admire and seek the blessings and guidance of such amazing individuals. I would like to end with a line spoken everyday by sikhs the world over. Guru Nanak Naam Chardi Kala Tere Paneh Sarbatt Dha Balla. Forgive me for any errors and anything i may have said wrong.

 

[kaur-1]

If the persons involved in the relationship agree together that religion is not the deciding factor for them to be together then nothing else can change that. Both of us are liberal, nobody can impose such a penalty on either of us, personally that doesn't matter. How can anyone say religion has to be the deciding factor of whether two people be together or not.

Kaur 1 i appreciate your reply and suggestion it might be temporary love, but i do not love someone for their religion, but only for who they are. If i believe new spirituality is the path for me, then so be it, sikhism is the path for you, and i applaud you for following that path. But please don't try to convince me to believe otherwise, for a long time i have seen the hypocrisy, violence, double standards that is involved with religion. Religion teaches us to follow its path, where as spirituality teaches us to go within and follow the path true to our hearts. That is what i am doing.

To your comment in BOLD, pray tell me then WHY are you posting this here. If you have already made up your mind then do what you want. Dont use gurbani to justify your actions.

But please DO NOT preach to the rest of the Sikh community that its ok to do this.

A note: If your partner wants to accept the Sikh faith then please go ahead and teach him about the beauty of Sikhi and Gurbani.

You dont know how lucky you are to have Guru Ki Bani in your lap. take him to the Gurdwara and teach him gurbani. Who knows.!

There are sevaral marriages with a Sikh marrying a person of another faith and the partner always accepts the Sikh faith. One has to make the EFFORT to teach the partner the beauty of Guru Nanaks legacy. Its up to you. I am not against a Sikh marrying another faith but only if the the partner accepts Sikhi. After all only a Sikh can marry a Sikh in the Gurdwara.

Take him to the Gurdwara and recite and teach him Gurbani. Your children will be strong Sikhs this way.

Or you can "talk" your way out as you are already doing now. So I am just wasting my energy typing here.

 

[badmash]

"Maybe I am a pindu in the end, even with all my education. But for me it is simply a matter of my own people come first, preservation and protection of what was inherited by me through the blood and tears of my brave forefathers. I guess I keep it simple, it's just a question of loyalty to me. I think that means something very important in this fickle day and age."

Absolutely ! I have said the same thing myself many times. I wish more people felt this way. And it is the one thing we as a people have lost more and more, the concept of waffadari, right or wrong.

 

[chk1]

funny you're wasting your time kaur1 when i was thinking the same thing, how narrow minded and egotistic people really are on this website and yet they like to give the impression they are "true" "die hard" sikhs!!
Yet again you just see the whole "our religion is better than any other" comes up and its silly, Its so childish and no true sikh would proclaim anything like that. You only have to look at the examples in history to realise that. As for quoting gurbani i have as much right to do so as anyone else, you don't have to be a sikh to have knowledge and respect the teachings.
Muslims like to convert, their religion is missionary but sikhism never was, so how funny it is to see someone trying to get people to realise sikhism is the best religion going. If you don't learn to respect don't ever expect respect back, perhaps you should stop preaching how everything is one and how we are all one with God (in sikhism) because you clearly can't grasp that concept because judgements, pride and racial intolerance cloud those beliefs.
Or perhaps my points aren't valid because im not a a sikh let alone a "true" sikh like yourself. If this is what the future holds for sikhism how sad it is, that it will become like all the others.
This thread began about sikh muslim marriage and i replied to thread as you did too. My opinion and comment is as valid as are yours, just because i don't agree with you doesn't make me any less of a person.

 

[badmash]

I just wanted to add, muslims may be giving out propaganda, but sikhs do too it's hard to believe certain things we read or hear. And lets not forget the role of the media who distort things aswell.
Propaganda is all around us. Whether sikhs or muslims write it.

May you be blessed in your efforts and may you and your husband live long and prosper. But, the above statement is funny. One must alway be able to differentiate the relative intensity of a thing. One cannot equate Sikh "propaganda" with that of others.

 

[SoniaKG]

For the fact that in this day and age u are recognising just what our forefathers is a very beautiful act and something that how ever educated one is, is something that should not be forgotten. But we cannot give the same qurbani as they gave, as much as we pray to god we can come to be like these individuals it is a very humble act which few can follow. This is something that both the "pindu" as you put it or the educated elite both recognise and acknowledge. They laid down there lives so we could live in peace and love. I know there is more to life than just loving everything, i am not a romanticist and i live with my feet firmly on the ground. But perhaps i have fallen prey to the beauty of my faith which is love is god god is love and love is everything. In the end what we do here in this world stays here, what goes with us is our love and spirit.

 

[badmash]

funny you're wasting your time kaur1 when i was thinking the same thing, how narrow minded and egotistic people really are on this website and yet they like to give the impression they are "true" "die hard" sikhs!!
Yet again you just see the whole "our religion is better than any other" comes up and its silly, Its so childish and no true sikh would proclaim anything like that. You only have to look at the examples in history to realise that. As for quoting gurbani i have as much right to do so as anyone else, you don't have to be a sikh to have knowledge and respect the teachings.
Muslims like to convert, their religion is missionary but sikhism never was, so how funny it is to see someone trying to get people to realise sikhism is the best religion going. If you don't learn to respect don't ever expect respect back, perhaps you should stop preaching how everything is one and how we are all one with God (in sikhism) because you clearly can't grasp that concept because judgements, pride and racial intolerance cloud those beliefs.
Or perhaps my points aren't valid because im not a a sikh let alone a "true" sikh like yourself. If this is what the future holds for sikhism how sad it is, that it will become like all the others.
This thread began about sikh muslim marriage and i replied to thread as you did too. My opinion and comment is as valid as are yours, just because i don't agree with you doesn't make me any less of a person.

What is the point here? The thread should terminate here, and postings on this subject should stop. It is just becoming personal in nature. You are free to choose, free in part because of the blood spilt by your ancestors in defence of a faith which enshrined the fight for justice and equality. They also indirectly gave you this dilemna in front of you, because almost certainly without the sikhs of old, all of us would be bowing east to Mecca and these debates would never have occurred. You are obviously a bright and articulate individual. Your path is free in front of you. But you should not put down those whose belief in the goodness (and yes, in the rational philosophical superiority of Sikhism over more cretinistic and close minded tribalistic faiths) of sikhism is expounded here. We all know that idealistically, no one tells or judges another. Most of us also know that too much idealism is not a good thing. By the way, what the hell does "Muslims like to convert" mean? It means they think they are superior. Ahhhhhhhhhhhh.........decency forbids further comment.