Understanding Gurbani

[Sikh80]

Suggestions In the interpretation of the Tuks of SGGS ji as appearing in the Threads

It is high time that we formulate some basic rules for the threads where the translation/intepretation of the Gurbani is concerned. All I can say is that someone from the Moderator's side is to devise these simple and logical rules that can be followed by the members who are participatiing in these threads to avoid unpleasnatless for the members.
There should be dis-incentive for the members who indulge in "be-adbi' of either bani or the Guru sahib ji.

Only for information.

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Your suggestion suits fanatics. Ego convinces everyone that he is correct.

In my view, let everyone express his understanding. The readers apprehend it where God wants them to lead.


Balbir Singh

 

[Sikh80]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Your suggestion suits fanatics. Ego convinces everyone that he is correct.

In my view, let everyone express his understanding. The readers apprehend it where God wants them to lead.


Balbir Singh

But who is a fanatic here?

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

According to An oxford dictionary a fanatical person is a person filled with excessive and mistaken enthusiasm, esp. in religion.
From another dictionary, a fanatic is one who cannot change his mind and will not change the subject.
A fanatic is against all changes that push him to move. They need forums that certify their rigidity.


Balbir Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Pray for truth!

It is not clear why the idea of "fanatics" has come up at all in this thread. The thread was making its way through a discussion of Gurbani.

I hope we are not going to follow a twist and turn in the road that will lead us off topic. The use of the word "fanatic" can even lead us into a name-calling session which will do nothing to advance the discussion.

One never knows if a comment is an honest expression of a point of view -- or if it is a deliberate attempt to draw people into an argument that goes nowhere.

 

[spnadmin]

Suggestions In the interpretation of the Tuks of SGGS ji as appearing in the Threads

It is high time that we formulate some basic rules for the threads where the translation/intepretation of the Gurbani is concerned. All I can say is that someone from the Moderator's side is to devise these simple and logical rules that can be followed by the members who are participatiing in these threads to avoid unpleasnatless for the members.
There should be dis-incentive for the members who indulge in "be-adbi' of either bani or the Guru sahib ji.

Only for information.

Respected Sikh80 ji,

Your concerns are shared by many on the forum. Yes unpleasantness is the result of a lack of care in translation -- readers view mistaken translations as twisting the sacred words of the Guru. It demoralizes them.

Here is the problem with setting up rules about translations. There were always be at least one person, and maybe others, who is going to argue with the rule. They will make a big deal out of how the person/people who devised the rule are lost in a fog of sin and ignorance. That the rule should say what they want the rule to say because they (the critics) are in fact the only ones who know what the rule should be. They are inspired by God.

So we end up with a holy war over the rule. So far we have had holy wars only about the translations.

A word about that. One can never tell if the bad blood spilt over translations is an honest desire to debate in a way that contributes to the growth of knowledge and understanding. Or whether it is an attempt to get an argument started and put the forum into an uproar. So it is often better to simply stick to your topic.

Hope that made sense.

 

[Admin]

Sikh80 ji

It is the group we were talking about yesterday. I tried to create it after leaving the thread, but was not successful. Once I figure it out, I will let you know. So you and others can find it easily. Maybe it wasn't approved yet. It has to be approved by Admin.

Groups approved, my apologies for delay... In coming days, groups will be more interactive... a new version is coming up shortly.

 

[spnadmin]

Many thanks Aman Singh ji,

We will be very interested in how the new version works.

All the best!

 

[simpy]

Dhan Dhan Sache Patshah Siri Guru Granth Sahib De Panna # 81:

min hir hir jpnu kry ]
hir gur srxweI Bij pau ijMdU sB iklivK duK prhry ]1] rhwau ]
Git Git rmeIAw min vsY ikau pweIAY ikqu Biq ]
guru pUrw siqguru BytIAY hir Awie vsY min iciq ]
mY Dr nwmu ADwru hY hir nwmY qy giq miq ]
mY hir hir nwmu ivswhu hY hir nwmy hI jiq piq ]
jn nwnk nwmu iDAwieAw rMig rqVw hir rMig riq ]5]




man har har jupun kurae
har gur surunaaee bhaj po jindhoo subh kilavikh dhukh purehurae

ghatt ghatt rumeeaa man vusai kio paaeeai kith bhath
gur pooraa sathigur bhaetteeai har aae vusai man chith
mai dhur naam adhaar hai har naamai thae gath math
mai har har naam visaahu hai har naamae hee jath path
jun naanuk naam dhiaaeiaa rung ruthurraa har rung rath






humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness

 

[simpy]

Hi Aad Ji,

can you please explain 'how to's ' for the groups.....

thanks

 

[spnadmin]

Surinder ji, Hi to you.

Check your private messages for my question. I am in need of suggestions about how to proceed. You can find the GROUP by clicking on the blue Groups tab to the left and see them listed. However, people have to be invited to join to make up a group. So I am open to your suggestions and requests. And people have to let me know when and how they want to get started, particularly International Akaali ji because he had listed a number of suggestions. Right now all we have is the group space. But feedback is needed. Looking for your input which you can either pm or post in the thread. Thank you for your questions.

 

[spnadmin]

Update - Progress starting 2 groups on vichaar of SGGS.

I have starting inviting members to join. Will invite more each day. So far 2 people have joined Understanding Gurbani, and 2 have joined Discussion of Siri Guru Granth Sahib and the Shabad.

Have also started a discussion on the vichaar of the Mool Mantar - just a beginning. It is possible at this time to reply to this thread. And the process works in Groups the same way it does here. You can reply to what I wrote and/or start a new thread if that is what you want to do.

Thank you.

 

[Sikh80]

I do not think it would be proper to initiate a new thread for this. At some places One come across some 'tuks'/lines in Granth sahib ji, that one cannot fit in the context. Will it be appropriate to ask the question in this thread. Being not very sure of this I am posting a line that is to be understood.
AwgY dyKau fau jlY pwCY hirE AMgUru ] (20-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
In front of me, I see the jungle burning; behind me, I see green plants sprouting.]

To help the participants to see the line in its outlay I am posting page 20 ..

pMc BUq sic BY rqy joiq scI mn mwih ] (20-1, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
The body of the five elements is dyed in the Fear of the True One; the mind is filled with the True Light.
Is it the body that is dyed in Fear of The Lord? Should it not be the mind?
nwnk Aaugx vIsry guir rwKy piq qwih ]4]15] (20-1, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
O Nanak, your demerits shall be forgotten; the Guru shall preserve your honor. ||4||15||


nwnk byVI sc kI qrIAY gur vIcwir ] (20-2, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
O Nanak, the Boat of Truth will ferry you across; contemplate the Guru.

ieik Awvih ieik jwvhI pUir Bry AhMkwir ] (20-2, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Some come, and some go; they are totally filled with egotism.


mnhiT mqI bUfIAY gurmuiK scu su qwir ]1] (20-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Through stubborn-mindedness, the intellect is drowned; one who becomes Gurmukh and truthful is saved. ||1||

gur ibnu ikau qrIAY suKu hoie ] (20-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Without the Guru, how can anyone swim across to find peace?


ijau BwvY iqau rwKu qU mY Avru n dUjw koie ]1] rhwau ] (20-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
As it pleases You, Lord, You save me. There is no other for me at all. ||1||Pause||

AwgY dyKau fau jlY pwCY hirE AMgUru ] (20-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
In front of me, I see the jungle burning; behind me, I see green plants sprouting.

ijs qy aupjY iqs qy ibnsY Git Git scu BrpUir ] (20-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
We shall merge into the One from whom we came. The True One is pervading each and every heart.


Awpy myil imlwvhI swcY mhil hdUir ]2] (20-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
He Himself unites us in Union with Himself; the True Mansion of His Presence is close at hand. ||2||

I could not fit in the line as above in the context. Would be grateful for the advice.

 

[Sikh80]

I am recirculating the above unresolved query. It is requested that members may kindly like to opine .The opinion should not be based on what Dr Sahib Singh ji has stated. It should be your own opinion.
It should be simple for most of you but I feel stuck up.
Thanks in anticipation.

 

[spnadmin]

pMc BUq sic BY rqy joiq scI mn mwih ] (20-1, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
The body of the five elements is dyed in the Fear of the True One; the mind is filled with the True Light.
Is it the body that is dyed in Fear of The Lord? Should it not be the mind?


Pulled out so it stands out. This is the question for discussion.

 

[spnadmin]

Sikh 80 ji

The word "body" is mentioned several times in the shabad. Only once is the word "than" used. In the line you question, there is no literal reference to "body" at all. (Also go back one page to Ang 19 to get a better sense of the metaphor at work in the shabad.)

Notice that the line doesn't include anything pointing to a "body" In my opinion you have to read the line as containing a poetic technique called "elipsis" Any actual reference to a person or thing is deliberately omitted by the poet in order to talk about a concept rather than to talk about a material person or object.

Sahib Singh could also have translated to say "the one who is dyed" or "that personal sense of self that is dyed" in the color of the 5 elements. So what is Guruji getting at here?

The reason I look at the line this way: The body is dyed -- dyed in the color of Fear -- when something is dyed it is changed -- transformed. So in the line what has been transformed or changed -- What has been changed by fear of the Lord?

It is not a "body" nor a "mind" that should be dyed in fear of the Lord when reading this line. I believe instead that Guruji means ("means" is different from "translates as" ) that one, that one who, that individual, that person, the sum total of who that person is, when dyed in the Fear of the Lord will be transformed. But Guruji is saying this in an abstract way.

My reasoning... look back in the same shabad to page 19 at earlier lines ... and you will see that the raag talks about than "the body" that is burnt, is destroyed, all that material than, that body, becomes ashes.

First this happens, (Ang 19, line 14)
ਤਨੁ ਜਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਮਾਟੀ ਭਇਆ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹਿ ਮਨੂਰੁ ॥
than jal bal maattee bhaeiaa man maaeiaa mohi manoor ||
The body is burnt to ashes; by its love of Maya, the mind is rusted through.

Then this happens, (Ang 20, line 1)
pMc BUq sic BY rqy joiq scI mn mwih ] (20-1, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
The body of the five elements is dyed in the Fear of the True One; the mind is filled with the True Light.

than is irrelevant. None of that material body matters. What matters is this: the personhood, the identity of one's self, not the body, is dyed in the fear of the Lord. When that sense of self has been dyed, has been changed, has been transformed, transformed by Fear, then it enshrines the divine light.

Guruji says than when meaning body. And leaves than out when talking about something beyond than or body.

 

[Sikh80]

isrIrwgu mhl 1 ] (19-13)

Siree Raag, First Mehl:


qnu jil bil mwtI BieAw mnu mwieAw moih mnUru ] (19-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

1.The body is burnt to ashes; by its love of Maya, the mind is rusted through.


Aaugx iPir lwgU Bey kUir vjwvY qUru ] (19-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

2.Demerits become one's enemies, and falsehood blows the bugle of attack.


ibnu sbdY BrmweIAY duibDw foby pUru ]1] (19-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

3.Without the Word of the Shabad, people wander lost in reincarnation. Through the love of duality, multitudes have been drowned. ||1||


mn ry sbid qrhu icqu lwie ] (19-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

4.O mind, swim across, by focusing your consciousness on the Shabad.


ijin gurmuiK nwmu n bUiJAw mir jnmY AwvY jwie ]1] rhwau ] (19-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

5.Those who do not become Gurmukh do not understand the Naam; they die, and continue coming and going in reincarnation. ||1||Pause||



qnu sUcw so AwKIAY ijsu mih swcw nwau ] (19-16, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

6.That body is said to be pure, in which the True Name abides.



BY sic rwqI dyhurI ijhvw scu suAwau ] (19-17, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

7.One whose body is imbued with the Fear of the True One, and whose tongue savors Truthfulness,




scI ndir inhwlIAY bhuiV n pwvY qwau ]2] (19-17, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

8.is brought to ecstasy by the True Lord's Glance of Grace. That person does not have to go through the fire of the womb again. ||2||




swcy qy pvnw BieAw pvnY qy jlu hoie ] (19-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

9.From the True Lord came the air, and from the air came water.


jl qy iqRBvxu swijAw Git Git joiq smoie ] (19-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

10.From water, He created the three worlds; in each and every heart He has infused His Light.


inrmlu mYlw nw QIAY sbid rqy piq hoie ]3] (19-19, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

11.The Immaculate Lord does not become polluted. Attuned to the Shabad, honor is obtained. ||3||


iehu mnu swic sMqoiKAw ndir kry iqsu mwih ] (19-19, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

12.One whose mind is contented with Truthfulness, is blessed with the Lord's Glance of Grace.



pMc BUq sic BY rqy joiq scI mn mwih ] (20-1, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

13.The body of the five elements is dyed in the Fear of the True One; the mind is filled with the True Light.


nwnk Aaugx vIsry guir rwKy piq qwih ]4]15] (20-1, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

14.O Nanak, your demerits shall be forgotten; the Guru shall preserve your honor. ||4||15||


isrIrwgu mhlw 1 ] (20-2)

Siree Raag, First Mehl:​

I am giving the 'sabad' under consideration in full. aad ji may be you understand the things correctly but I shall have to dig it more as essentially 'sabad' should be something divine i.e 'naam'.


You have explained the meaning of line 13 as above. I shall have to have look for many times before I really understand as to that you have conveyed. I am not blessed with razor edge kind of intellect.I am fairly dull when stuck up in Bani. Hope you shall ignore this aspect.

Let us start as to what is the intention of 'sabad' [as above] in which the line appears.I shall take it up after some time ,may be one/two days.

 

[Sikh80]

Shabad No-2


myry mn jip rwm nwmu hir mwJw ] (697-16, jYqsrI, mÚ 4)


O my mind, chant the Name of the Lord, the Lord within you.


hir hir ik®pwil ik®pw pRiB DwrI guir igAwnu dIE mnu smJw ] rhwau ] (697-16, jYqsrI, mÚ 4)

The Merciful Lord God, Har, Har, has showered me with His Mercy; the Guru has imparted spiritual wisdom to me, and my mind has been instructed. ||Pause||


hir kIriq kljuig pdu aUqmu hir pweIAY siqgur mwJw ] (697-17, jYqsrI, mÚ 4)


In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Kirtan of the Lord's Praise brings the most noble and exalted status; the Lord is found through the True Guru.


hau bilhwrI siqgur Apuny ijin gupqu nwmu prgwJw ]2] (697-18, jYqsrI, mÚ 4)

I am a sacrifice to my True Guru, who has revealed the Lord's hidden Name to me. ||2||



drsnu swD imilE vfBwgI siB iklibK gey gvwJw ] (697-19, jYqsrI, mÚ 4)

By great good fortune, I obtained the Blessed Vision of the Darshan of the Holy; it removes all stains of sin.



siqguru swhu pwieAw vf dwxw hirkIey bhu gux swJw ]3] (697-19, jYqsrI, mÚ 4)

I have found the True Guru, the great, all-knowing King; He has shared with me the many Glorious Virtues of the Lord. ||3||




ijn kau ik®pw krI jgjIvin hir auir DwirE mn mwJw ] (698-1, jYqsrI, mÚ 4)

Those, unto whom the Lord, the Life of the world, has shown Mercy, enshrine Him within their hearts, and cherish Him in their minds.



Drm rwie dir kwgd Pwry jn nwnk lyKw smJw ]4]5] (698-1, jYqsrI, mÚ 4)

The Righteous Judge of Dharma, in the Court of the Lord, has torn up my papers; servant Nanak's account has been settled. ||4||5||​

This is the second 'shabad' about which I am clueless.

What is the meaning of the underlined line?
We already have Naam to grapple with. It should not be something new.
Since there was no other thread I posted it here to be discussed here. I think it is the only possible way else there would be very many threads runnnig on understanding of bani. Hope you shall forgive me.
What is the secret about the name.?
Is it the 'naam' or something else.?
Kindly do not be guided by the translation.​

 

[Astroboy]

ਹਉ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਜਿਨਿ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਰਗਾਝਾ ॥੨॥
Ha­o balihārī saṯgur apunė jin gupaṯ nām pargājẖā. ||2||
I am a sacrifice to my True Guru, who has revealed the Lord's hidden Name to me. ||2||
ਮੈਂ ਆਪਨੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੋਂ ਪਰ ਬਲਿਹਾਰਨੇ ਜਾਤਾ ਹੂੰ ਜਿਨੋਂ ਨੇ ਤੇਰਾ ਗੁਪਤਿ ਨਾਮ ਮੇਰੇ ਰਿਦੇ ਮੈਂ (ਪਰਗਾਝਾ) ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਕੀਆ ਹੈ॥੨॥

Sikh80 Ji,

I understand this tuk as follows:-

Naam is ever-present but few realise its presence. A fish cannot understand that without water it cannot live. Very few fish realise this like the ones which escape the fishing trawlers net and jump back into the sea. Having a second chance to live, their lives are forever changed.

Naam is the water in which we (like the fish) forever live in. But it remains hidden from our realisation of it. Once we realise this, then it manifests within us only. But others, who have not experienced this change in consciousness, remain deluded - naam remains gupt to them.

 

[Sikh80]

Respected namjap ji,

Thanks for a beautiful explanation. thanks again.

If Naam is 'gupt' then what do we practice upon. What is 'waheguru'? Is it not the Gurumantra? Is it not the mantra that invoke the heavenly kingdom?
What is Gupt?
Are we talking of naam or name here. ?
In both cases 'waheguru' is the answer. Is it not so? If no then what is 'naam that I should practice upon.
I think' waheguru' contains the answer.


Pl. correct me.

Jap man Satnam .. sada satnam......
Jap man Satnam ..sada satnam.......