Tragedy of all is this that to whom Guru ji spoke so clearly and openly are engulfed with tons of loads of philosophy which was proved to be of no value by Guru Ji in this search.
While spirituality is something which unfolds with ease and according to karam, Sikhism isn't "anti-philosophy." It's always a surprise to me that Sikhs will pursue advanced studies, medicine, law, business degrees, but when it comes to Sikhism, many can't explain the most basic concepts. So I disagree with you that philosophy and katha are of "no value."
Let me explain something. When a person tries to explain a spiritual experience in words, every word he speaks is a step away from that experience. Every word is a step away from the intimacy because it begins to involve concepts of the mind, mental constructs to explain what is perceived psychologically, emotionally, and with the spiritual element.
This doesn't mean that learning spiritual concepts is a waste of time or without value. I don't agree with anti-intellectualism as it tends to promote cultic philosophies based on blind faith rather than investigation. This is the problem with religion today, many just blindly follow, and this lack of insight, lack of investigation hinders experience. Just as you wouldn't send an untrained, unprepared, unbriefed soldier into the field of battle, so you would not send an unprepared Sikh and expect him to encounter the many philosophies and religions with only defensive reaction and not well-reasoned, insightful knowledge. I think we invest so much into pursuits to make money, and not enough to be able to intelligently discuss Sikhism.
Logic never works in spiritual pursuit, the high spiritual experience stops dividing His creation on the basis of History or any man made assertion.
The logic I was referring to was that multiplicity in manifest form doesn't make sense to the human brain as Oneness. And because of this, Abrahamic belief systems cannot reconcile that the Supreme Oneness could be pervading in His creation or manifest within it as God-conscious realization. You seem not to be able to digest that previous forms of spirituality in past ages served a function of genuine religion and spirituality. You seem not to be able to reconcile how the Parabrahm could be manifest in an avatara if that avatara was caught in the three gunas. Yet I've explained that anything manifest in physical form is by nature caught in the three qualities of Maya and duality. It negates that the Supreme Uncreated God could ever be manifest in materiality, and is forever separate from His creation. Yet Gurbani clearly states:
ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਕੀਨਾ ਆਪੇ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਏ ॥
maaeiaa mohu maerai prabh keenaa aapae bharam bhulaaeae ||
Emotional attachment to Maya is created by my God; He Himself misleads us through illusion and doubt.
ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਹੀ ਬੂਝਹਿ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਏ ॥
manamukh karam karehi nehee boojhehi birathhaa janam gavaaeae ||
The self-willed manmukhs perform their actions, but they do not understand; they waste away their lives in vain.
ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਇਸੁ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਕਰਮਿ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਏ ॥੧॥
gurabaanee eis jag mehi chaanan karam vasai man aaeae ||1||
Gurbani is the Light to illuminate this world; by His Grace, it comes to abide within the mind. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 67
If the God has created the Maya and the illusion, why is He punishing? What could be the created design?
ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਜਿਮੁ ਦੇਹ ਧਰਾਏ ॥
Bhinn bhinn jim(i) deh dharaae||
According as the Lord adopted different forms,
ਤਿਮੁ ਤਿਮੁ ਕਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥
Tim(u) tim(u) kar avtaar kahaae||
In the same manner, he became renowned as different incarnations;
ਪਰਮ ਰੂਪ ਜੋ ਏਕ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥
Param roop jo ek kahaayo||
But whatever is the Supreme form of the Lord;
ਅੰਤ ਸਭੋ ਤਿਹ ਮੱਧਿ ਮਿਲਾਯੋ ॥੩੩॥
Ant sabho tih maddh(i) milaayo||33||
Ultimately all merged in Him.33.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 423
So ultimately existance is not a punishment. You can be punished for evil deeds because people will receive in like measure what they give as law of karam. But the goal of life is not the Abrahamic conception of sin, unworthiness and punishment by a Supreme Being. I think Gurbani is very clear that the imperceivable God made Himself perceivable in many forms and ways in order to be a Light which shines in darkness. Otherwise how would Vaheguru guide the creation back to the Primal source? And if you can accept what Gurbani says that the God came in form as avataar, which means more than simply "incarnation." We are all incarnations, and we all have Parabrahm pervading in our hearts. But we are not all avataars. An avataar is an incarnation which is the manifestation of the One God on the earth in sargun saroop so the darkness of the sansaara may be pierced by the Jyot of God. Both Shabad Guru Ji and Dasam Granth bani talk of 10 incarnations specifically. You claim this is mere story-telling using mythological references to a discarded Hindu religion. That's your right to believe.
ਬੇਦ ਗਿਰੰਥ ਗੁਰ ਹਟਿ ਹੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਲਗਿ ਭਵਜਲ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਾਰਾ ।
bayd girand gur hati hai jisu|agi bhavajal paari utaaraa|
From that knowledge of the Vedas which gets man across the world ocean even the knowledgeable people get away.
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਝੁ ਨ ਬੁਝੀਐ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਧਰੇ ਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ ।
satigur baajhu n bujheeai jicharu dharay n prabhu avataaraa|
So long God does not descend on earth in the form of true Guru, no mystery can be understood.
ਗੁਰ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਇਕੁ ਹੈ ਸਚਾ ਸਾਹੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਬਣਜਾਰਾ ।
gur paramaysaru iku hai sachaa saahu jagatu banajaaraa|
The Guru and God are one; He is the true master and the whole world craves for Him.
ਚੜੈ ਸੂਰ ਮਿਟਿ ਜਾਇ ਅੰਧਾਰਾ ॥੧੭॥
charhai soor miti jaai andhaaraa ॥17॥
He rises like sun and the darkness is dispelled.
~Vaar 1 Pauri 17 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas
While there may be at least 3 places where Gurbani speaks specifically of mythology in relation to the Bull:
ਧੌਲੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਦਇਆ ਕਾ ਪੂਤੁ ॥
dhhaal dhharam dhaeiaa kaa pooth ||
The mythical bull is Dharma, the son of compassion;
ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਥਾਪਿ ਰਖਿਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਸੂਤਿ ॥
santhokh thhaap rakhiaa jin sooth ||
this is what patiently holds the earth in its place.
~SGGS Ji p. 3
It is equally clear that this is not mere reference to a story, but Guruji is teaching that with the symbolism of the Dharma Bull, the compassionate Dharma holds the Earth in it's place. So the teaching is very meaningful, even with the clearly stated reference to a mythological Bull.
The Bull is called Nandi, and it is a mount of Shiva. And in each age, the Bull is losing one of it's legs until the time of Kaliyug when the Dharma Bull is standing on only one leg.
Guruji didn't tell this story of the mythological Bull because there was no truth in it. He told the symbolic story precisely because there was truth in it, as we see confirmed by the analysis of Bhai Gurdas Ji vaaran:
ਸਤਜੁਗ ਦਾ ਅਨਿਆਉ ਵੇਖਿ ਧਉਲ ਧਰਮੁ ਹੋਆ ਉਡੀਣਾ ।
satajug daa aniaau vaykhi dhaul dharamu hoaa udeenaa|
Seeing the injustice of Satyug, dharma in the form of a bull got sad.
ਸੁਰਪਤਿ ਨਰਪਤਿ ਚਕ੍ਰਵੈ ਰਖਿ ਨ ਹੰਘਨਿ ਬਲ ਮਤਿ ਹੀਣਾ ।
surapati narapati chakravai rakhi n hanghani bal mati heenaa|
Even the king of gods, Indr, and other kings with vast empires, engrossed egoism, devoid of power and wisdom could not sust
ਤ੍ਰੇਤੇ ਖਿਸਿਆ ਪੈਰੁ ਇਕੁ ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਜਗੁ ਥਾਪਿ ਪਤੀਣਾ ।
traytay khisiaa pairu iku hom jag jagu daapi pateenaa|
In Treta- its one foot slipped and now religious people started feeling satisfied by mere performance of the ceremonies of
ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਦੁਇ ਪਗ ਧਰਮ ਦੇ ਪੂਜਾ ਚਾਰ ਪਖੰਡੁ ਅਲੀਣਾ ।
duaapuri dui pag dharam day poojaa chaar pakhandu aleenaa|
In Dvapar remained only two feet of dharma and now people began to remain absorbed only ritualistic worship.
ਕਲਿਜੁਗ ਰਹਿਆ ਪੈਰ ਇਕੁ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਮਾਣਾ ਧਰਮ ਅਧੀਣਾ ।
kalijug rahiaa pair iku hoi nimaanaa dharam adheenaa|
In Kaliyug, the dharma has only one feet and consequently has become quite feeble.
ਮਾਣੁ ਨਿਮਾਣੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਪਰਗਟ ਪਰਬੀਣਾ ।
maanu nimaanai satiguroo saadhasangati paragat parabeenaa|
True Guru, the power of the powerless, has made it (dharma) manifest by and through creating the holy Congregations.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖ ਧਰਮ ਸਪੂਰਣੁ ਰੀਣਾ ॥੧੮॥
guramukh dharam sapooranu reenaa ॥18॥
The gurmukhs have brought to perfection the dharma earlier reduced to dust.
~ Vaar 23 Pauri 18 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji
Does Gurbani tell us untruths which we can disregard or disbelieve? Clearly here Gurbani tells the truth of degradation of spirituality through the ages by clearly using the analogy of the Dharma Bull. Are we free to infer that every story or reference is mythological because this story of the Dharma Bull is? Are we able to disregard as unnecessary what is claimed mere story-telling of Guru? Are we to infer all this is needless superstition, fake Ages, fake spiritual teaching because past religion spoke symbolically of profound truths which many today can't even recognize?
I say no.
ਇਸੁ ਕਲਿਜੁਗ ਮਹਿ ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥
eis kalijug mehi karam dhharam n koee ||
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, no one is interested in good karma, or Dharmic faith.
ਕਲੀ ਕਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਚੰਡਾਲ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਹੋਈ ॥
kalee kaa janam chanddaal kai ghar hoee ||
This Dark Age was born in the house of evil.
ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੋ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੪॥੧੦॥੩੦॥
naanak naam binaa ko mukath n hoee ||4||10||30||
O Nanak, without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, no one is liberated. ||4||10||30||
~SGGS Ji p. 161
I do not believe the many references to yugas in Gurbani are mythological and untrue, meaningless superstitions to be ignored and discarded because we don't understand. I don't believe the places where Gurbani talks about the physical universe being made from purusha and pakrti and three forms of Maya and illusion of duality as false, mythological or superstition either. I do believe the spiritual teaching is very high and indeed encompasses and surpasses the wisdom of the Vedas.
Guru ji using all accepted pilgrimage and rejecting their importance in concept of purity of soul. Guru ji has to say about all these popular names, nothing more than that
I'm afraid I cannot agree. The wisdom and insight are too profound. There is a problem with translation into English using the word mythology, because it has come to imply untruth, superstition, blind ritualism. And this negates the other variant definition which means symbolic truth. I cannot believe, however convenient to promote an ideological or political view, that Gurbani contains mere references, deliberate falsehoods and fables, or anything which is a lie to be discarded as useless information. If the information is in Gurbani, we should strive to uncover it's deep wisdom and symbolic meanings.
By the Christian era, the Greco-Roman world had started to use the term "myth" (Greek μῦθος, muthos) to mean "fable, fiction, lie"; as a result, early Christian writers used "myth" with this meaning.[14] This use of the term "myth" passed into popular usage.
In this article, the term "myth" is used in a scholarly sense, detached from popular associations with falsehood.
By the Christian era, the Greco-Roman world had started to use the term "myth" (Greek μῦθος, muthos) to mean "fable, fiction, lie"; as a result, early Christian writers used "myth" with this meaning.[14] This use of the term "myth" passed into popular usage.
In this article, the term "myth" is used in a scholarly sense, detached from popular associations with falsehood.
Myths were told to explain the creation and organization of the universe, fashion of man, and establishment of civilization. It teaches people lessons and it had to do with history & culture, the characters and the temper which produced them.
Mythology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I have read so many accounts where scholars make outrageous claims. They say these stories are fabrications to please the Hindu population. They are denied to have Vedic background. They are all claimed to be myth and superstition to be discarded. They are called useless, worthless. It's claimed these deities and yogic terms don't mean what they say they mean, that Guruji wrote them but meant something else. It's like intellectual gyrations to deny the obvious. At the end of the day, the terms still mean what they say. And it is equally clear that Gurbani talks about many deities but that all are subordinate to the nirgun uncreated Parabrahm...but so do the Hindu scriptures say the same thing. Rather than posing Sikh identity on something as tenuous as deliberate mistranslation or ignorance of Vedic teaching, people should clearly evaluate the commonalities and the differences. It's clear that Sikhism is not Hinduism and does not promote worship of the deities. But it's equally clear Gurbani must be interpreted with some degree of Vedic understanding which the terminology and concepts are rooted in. And I believe this is why Gurbani says:
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.
ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
~SGGS Ji p. 2
I mean even the concept of the Naad is Vedic.
ਗਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਲੀਤਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਜੀ ਅਵਗੁਣੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ।
gali vichi|eetaa krisan jee avagunu keetaa hari n chitaaray|
Krishna ignored his wrong act and embraced him.
ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸੰਤੋਖਿਆ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਣੁ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ।
kari kirapaa santokhiaa patit udhaaranu biradu beechaaray|
Gracefully Krishna asked him to be full of perseverance and gave sactuary to the wrongdoer.
ਭਲੇ ਭਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਮੰਨੀਅਨਿ ਬੁਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ ।
bhalay bhalay kari manneeani buriaan day hari kaaj savaaray|
The good is said good by everyone but the works of the evil doers are set right by the Lord only.
ਪਾਪ ਕਰੇਂਦੇ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥੨੩॥੧੦॥
paap karaynday patit udhaaray ॥23॥10॥
He has liberated many fallen sinners.
~ Vaar 10 Pauri 23 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji
What does this vaaran mean? It means that unlike Abrahamic interpretations, Bhagavan Krishna was not a false god, an evil idol or something to be discarded, feared, insulted, denied, repressed, removed, or punished. It means this was a valid Light/manifestation of the Supreme Parabrahm for past ages. And while these forms of religion did fall down in the preceding yugs, and while not capable of giving the Supreme mukti like the Naam, these forms of spirituality in their true sense, not the blind ritualism and worshipping of stones are to be respected as a valid spiritual path for those who follow them. If you add to these kind of interpretations the fact that Guruji sacrificed Himself to torture and death to protect Hindu's right to freely worship and keep Hindu identity, it becomes impossible to insult, tear down, disregard or invalidate the proper form of Hindu spirituality without the context that in this age all forms of spirituality have fallen away from the original Light.
Bhain ji ,That is a lame interpretation, and a narrow judgment which is colored with another belief Guru ji never advocates. It is not only about idol, it is about Krishana’s ( the known God)accepted birthday well known as Janam Ashtami and Guru ji says HE does not take birth on a particular day, it is not needed to be celebrated as birthday of GOD if any one says that, his/her tongue should be burnt. Idol thing comes after that, then Guru ji addresses the stone and image of Krishna. When we talk about incarnation of God, we do not need any special dictionary, God just doesn’t take birth individually and HIS being every where should not be mixed with God incarnation, it is that simple
Yes Guruji is correcting not to miss the correct spiritual message by being caught in the age of blind ritualism without proper understanding. Special birthdays etc are just improper worship of the deity which is fallen into time and corruption, and not the Supreme. But Gurbani doesn't say Hindu religion is worthless and we should now convert them to be Sikhs since we have "the One true God." That's so Abrahamic. There is no need at all for Sikhs to go through gyrations trying to hide, invalidate or erase the Vedic teaching found in Gurbani. It's so clear Guruji was completely at peace with Hindu religion. He doesn't insult or invalidate it. He explains deep truth and gives spiritual insight and correction to why it cannot be the highest religion of this age.
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥
brehamaa bisan mehaes dhaev oupaaeiaa ||
Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and the deities were created.
ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਦਿਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥
brehamae dhithae baedh poojaa laaeiaa ||
Brahma was given the Vedas, and enjoined to worship God.
ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ ॥
dhas avathaaree raam raajaa aaeiaa ||
The ten incarnations, and Rama the king, came into being.
ਦੈਤਾ ਮਾਰੇ ਧਾਇ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥
dhaithaa maarae dhhaae hukam sabaaeiaa ||
According to His Will, they quickly killed all the demons.
ਈਸ ਮਹੇਸੁਰੁ ਸੇਵ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
ees mehaesur saev thinhee anth n paaeiaa ||
Shiva serves Him, but cannot find His limits.
ਸਚੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਤਖਤੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥
sachee keemath paae thakhath rachaaeiaa ||
He established His throne on the principles of Truth.
ਦੁਨੀਆ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇ ਆਪੁ ਛਪਾਇਆ ॥
dhuneeaa dhhandhhai laae aap shhapaaeiaa ||
He enjoined all the world to its tasks, while He keeps Himself hidden from view.
~SGGS Ji p. 1279
Nothing here says fake, unreal, discarded, meaningless. These Deities are clearly forms of religion with a certain Light of God for past ages. And equally clear only the Naam and Guru's Shabad can liberate us in the Kalyug and take us to the limits of the nirgun saroop of Parabrahm.
listen to Guru message only and be worthy of Him, those who are just like beggars at HIS door, why to waste time on them. Gurmat is very clear, Gurbani uses a lot of prevailed words related to customs, devtas and other things but only as references, period. Nothing is more there. Who were they, were they actually there? Gurbani never uses any word that can verify their reality at all. It was a only way of enlightening people who were exposed to only these customs, Devtas and imaginative stories.
Duality is not fake. Kaliyug is not fake. The Naad and Shabad are not fake. The three gunas are not fake. Reincarnation is not fake. Heaven and Hell are not fake. Dharamraj, chitr and Gupt, jams are not fake. The devas and asuras are not fake. The Raja Jog of the Naam is not fake. The 7 chakrs and the 10 doors are not fake. The nirgun and sargun are not fake. The avatars are not fake. Karam and dharam is not fake. Maya and mukti are not fake. Darshan of Vaheguru is not fake. Samaadhi and the Fourth state of consciousness are not fake.
What exactly do you think is fake? The whole Gurbani? Or just certain parts?
~bhul chak maaf
